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Eiji Aonuma wants to include less tutorials in new Wii U Zelda
- Thread starter Nibel
- Start date
Who thought it was a good idea to put the "no" option on top?
Oh I can agree with you on that point, having NPCs tell you exactly where to go with the important words bolded/coloured is pretty annoying, but both can exist side by side.
If they let you explore and find out things about the world on your own terms everyone could be happy. I doubt there are that many who play Zelda to be spoonfed information about everything. (As evidenced by Fi)
LegendofLex
Member
Souls is just what 3D Zelda would have been if they kept on the trajectory of Zelda II.
Well, yeah. I don't think anyone is saying there should be no NPCs. Just that the game should be able to stand on its own without them (like the original game) - and in particular that they shouldn't take anything away from the game (as the "chores" of TP and SS, and even OoT/MM/TWW to some degree, did for many people).
decoyplatypus
Member
Well, I don't think it's any great mystery that moving the series to 3D meant that formerly intuitive mechanics (e.g. shooting an arrow at an enemy) would become more complicated. Other new mechanics arrived in response to player demand for larger worlds (e.g. Epona) or more sophisticated combat (counters in WW, special moves in TP, ~1:1 sword control in SS). We can debate the success of some of these new mechanics, but I don't think many people actually want a game as simple as LoZ.
Naked Snake
Member
Mandatory tutorials are one of the big reasons I stopped playing Zelda. That was back in Twilight Princess, and I haven't been interested in trying another one since.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
This might be the best news so far, haha.
Obligatory:
Stuff of nightmares right here.
I didn't think the tutorials bothered me as much in Zelda games until Skyward Sword. Twilight Princess I had fun going through the supposed "tutorial area" in Hyrule Castle and so forth. Skyward Sword's biggest failing for me though was a really irritating, uninteresting, thoroughly patronising companion that would tell you really inane stuff several hours into the game still. I'm in the fourth dungeon dear, I don't need to be reminded there's a possible bossfight behind that big door, for God's sake.
I hope they take a good look at how Link Between Worlds handled it, which was pretty much the perfect amount. Tell me what button does what, give me my sword, then away you go and work out how the puzzles work from there. Bish bash bosh. To be fair there are fewer mechanics in ALBW than there are in the average 3D Zelda, so I do wonder how practical it is to limit it to that amount in the Wii U Zelda. One thing for definite, though, is that Skyward Sword was completely the wrong way to deal with it. Stay well away from that game for tutorial inspiration!
I hope they take a good look at how Link Between Worlds handled it, which was pretty much the perfect amount. Tell me what button does what, give me my sword, then away you go and work out how the puzzles work from there. Bish bash bosh. To be fair there are fewer mechanics in ALBW than there are in the average 3D Zelda, so I do wonder how practical it is to limit it to that amount in the Wii U Zelda. One thing for definite, though, is that Skyward Sword was completely the wrong way to deal with it. Stay well away from that game for tutorial inspiration!
manueldelalas
Time Traveler
The most amazing thing is that of the 3D games, OOT is the one with less tutorials, and the ones that are there are short and not completely annoying (and everyone knows you speed the owl's text with B, not A).
It's good that Aonuma says this, but he has been in charge of Zelda since OOT (although OOT was under direct Miyamoto's supervision), and every 3D Zelda game has been getting worse and worse in this regard.
The new Zelda has a worrying sign, Link is not using his green tunic, so we know that he is a boring tutorial mode until he gets it.
It's good that Aonuma says this, but he has been in charge of Zelda since OOT (although OOT was under direct Miyamoto's supervision), and every 3D Zelda game has been getting worse and worse in this regard.
The new Zelda has a worrying sign, Link is not using his green tunic, so we know that he is a boring tutorial mode until he gets it.
I loaned my original 3DS and my copy of ALBW to a friend who doesn't own any videogame systems and who hasn't played a Zelda since Link's Awakening.
He loved ALBW and beat it 100%, but I found it interesting how he thought the intro seemed to drag on forever. Us Zelda fans praise ALBW for its quick start... but in truth it's only "quick" compared to other Zeldas that are worse.
He loved ALBW and beat it 100%, but I found it interesting how he thought the intro seemed to drag on forever. Us Zelda fans praise ALBW for its quick start... but in truth it's only "quick" compared to other Zeldas that are worse.
LegendofLex
Member
Sure. You can now move/attack/aim in any direction, not just 4-way attacks and 8-way movement. But do we really need a tutorial for that?
It should still be fairly intuitive to push a stick and figure out how the character moves as a result, or to press the attack button and see (oh, he attacks what's in front of me), or to pull out the bow and see (oh, it's in first-person) and figure out the X/Y axis controls simply by using it.
Same goes for these:
SS's sword tutorial was great in that you had a space where you could practice if you wanted, but you could skip it and move on if you didn't. OoT was similar, in that you could perform most of the basic in-game actions from the start, but (outside of targeting) you didn't have anyone stopping you to explain them - you could read the signs in the training area or talk to NPCs if you wanted to find stuff out.
Hyperactivity
Banned
I don't quite think the correlation you made in the last one works out too well
TP has the worst intro of the series yet is 2nd best selling
SS was at the end of the Wii's life, the 2nd Zelda on the console, at a time when it was being retired
Unless you want to compare MM.
And in terms of long intros, look at Majoras Mask. IT had a huge intro, that actually turned many off from the game, but within it you learned all about the problems, the grief, the strife of Termina and talked to various NPCs hearing their stories such that when the 1st 3 day cycle was up, you had a resolve in your mind t stop the apocalypse.
That's more of a problem with the companion character than the actual tutorial at the beginning of a game.
To me, Fi wasn't as annoying as some make it out to be but she definitely is not at Midna's level of greatness.
Megidolaon
Member
It just won't be a Zelda game without an annoying side character to yap at you and tell you what you already know.
They really do exaggerate how bad Fi was. Fi steps back and performs tasks similar to what Midna would do. I watched playthroughs of the game and noted every time that Fi appears in the first 3 surface areas:
Faron Woods:
- Fi introduces the Sealed Grounds.
- Fi asks if you want a tutorial on dowsing.
- Fi has you set a beacon to show you how to use them.
- Fi introduces Faron Woods.
- Then you can use dowsing to search for Zelda but you find a Kikwi instead. Fi comments on the dowsing not working.
- Fi marks the Kikwi you found on your map and tells you you can dowse to find the chief.
- You go find the chief Kikwi who asks you to find 3 Kikwis and you can dowse to find them.
- Fi marks each Kikwi you find on your map.
- Fi informs you about how you can quickly equip items and recalibrating the wii remote.
- Fi tells you you are in the Deep Woods.
- Fi tells you Zelda is in the dungeon and tells you you can go back to Skyloft if you need to prepare.
Eldin Volcano:
- You land and Fi tells you that your stuff can catch on fire. Doesn't tell you where to go. You run around and explore the entire really well-designed volcano area and Fi doesn't pop up again until you reach the summit where the Earth Temple is.
- Fi tells you you can dowse to find the keys. That's all!
- You land and Fi tells you Zelda was here and doesn't tell you where to go. You can dowse if you get lost.
- After navigating the mines completely on your own and reaching Lanayru Desert, Fi pops up again to tell you that quicksand is dangerous and you might want to check your map to see what kind of terrain is what, and the leaves you to figure out where to go. Doesn't tell you where to go.
- Fi pops up again to tell you that timeshift stones create a time bubble in the past. No shit, Fi.
- Once you reach the temple and find the door blocked, a robot tells you that you can enter the temple through the mining facility and shows you on your map where that is. He changes your map to a map of the past and Fi tells you the terrain on this map is different from the terrain in the present.
- Upon stepping on a safe path hidden below the quicksand, Fi pops up to tell you you can place beacons on submerged walkways in the quicksand by checking your map and upgrades your beacons so you can place more.
- Upon finding out you need to activate 3 generators, Fi tells you you can dowse for the generators you need to find.
- Once you find all 3 she tells you to return to the dial. If you fail to figure out the puzzle in your first try she gives you a hint.
So yes, she does pop up a bit too often in Faron Woods. Still, most of her interruptions during that period are nothing terrible. It should be noted that dowsing is optional and you can find everything it points you to without it. Finding Kikwis is similar to finding the Bombers in Majora's Mask.
Midna wasn't annoying and she
was pretty much unconscious at one point and you had to figure out how to navigate by yourself in Castle Town and Hyrule Castle
It really depends on the Zelda team, they can nail the companion character if they want to.
Even though I personally don't mind most of them,
I definitely agree with speeding up tutorials and making them less monotonous.
I think presentation is really the key here.
If the tutorial is tied into the story via either actual gameplay or exploration, then I think it's better to include it. They just need to be careful of its pacing and implementation.
It's also hard to draw a line between tutorials and long introductions to a title.
Some people just don't like really long introductions to a game, especially if they're slow paced.
An introduction that comes to mind is KH2's, where you play as Roxas for what, 3 hours?
I personally didn't mind it but I'm likely biased since Roxas is my favorite KH character and KH2 is my favorite game. I can see how people would start feeling like the game needs to hurry up and get on with the show.
I definitely agree with speeding up tutorials and making them less monotonous.
I think presentation is really the key here.
If the tutorial is tied into the story via either actual gameplay or exploration, then I think it's better to include it. They just need to be careful of its pacing and implementation.
It's also hard to draw a line between tutorials and long introductions to a title.
Some people just don't like really long introductions to a game, especially if they're slow paced.
An introduction that comes to mind is KH2's, where you play as Roxas for what, 3 hours?
I personally didn't mind it but I'm likely biased since Roxas is my favorite KH character and KH2 is my favorite game. I can see how people would start feeling like the game needs to hurry up and get on with the show.
Hyperactivity
Banned
Next game is going after Zelda 1 though, and although Zelda 2 is great, I've always been a fan of the original's philosophy
Now we just need some Majoras Mask level sidequests scattered throughout various NPCs of the world, SS and TP level puzzles and dungeons, and some other stuff from the rest of the series and we're good to go
Oh, and preferably bring back running mechanic, doesn't even have to be SS style, but it was great tobe able to walk fast without rolling or doing backflips everywhere
Obligatory:
I just wonder if there are really gamers who don't realize that you can skip all the text with B.
---
I like it that they want to do less tutorials, and Skyward Sword was already much better compared to Twilight Princess for the inital time spent on tutorial stuff.
But I don't want them to sacrifice the world building for that. That one has the advantage that it easily can be spread out over the entire game, through.
decoyplatypus
Member
I was responding to your suggestion that "mechanic bloat" might be the real issue here. I completely agree that even the more-complicated mechanics of recent games can be learned without forced tutorials or frequent intervention from NPCs (see my first few posts in the thread).
SCReuter
Member
I remember a brief sword and slingshot tutorial at the beginning of Twilight Princess, but not much else. Am I missing something?
It happened already a long time ago. SS definitely has a shorter intro than TWW and TP and I'm pretty sure MM intro is about the same length if not longer, yet somehow SS gets blasted with "FIVE HOUR TUTORIAL" so often that I sometimes ponder if I played the same game.
Time to start my new cycle:
Every time a home console zelda is announced i replay every zelda ever.
To speed things up, I do one handheld and one Console game at a time.
(played in the order of my choosing)
Handheld (3DS):
(Gamecube):
Pretty amazing that I can play almost every single zelda game ever made on just 2 systems. (If you play original wind waker and not WWHD you can play it all on wii and 3DS)
In this process i'll try to take note of how many times midna bugs you vs Fi.
Every time a home console zelda is announced i replay every zelda ever.
To speed things up, I do one handheld and one Console game at a time.
(played in the order of my choosing)
Handheld (3DS):
- OoT 3D
- Zelda 1
- Zelda 2
- LA
- OoA
- OoS
- Minish Cap
- 4 Swords
- ALBW
- Phantom Hourglass
- Spirit Tracks
(Gamecube):
- 4 sword adventures
- ALttP
- Twilight Princess
- Skyward Sword
- WWHD
- Majora's mask (last on the list in case we get 3D remake before Zelda 2015) (Wii VC)
Pretty amazing that I can play almost every single zelda game ever made on just 2 systems. (If you play original wind waker and not WWHD you can play it all on wii and 3DS)
In this process i'll try to take note of how many times midna bugs you vs Fi.
Guardian Monkey
Member
It would be awesome if the game started like this.
decoyplatypus
Member
This is a generous description. Making an input mistake (e.g. turning a one of the dials the wrong way, then exiting) as you learn how to interact with the dial is not the same as failing to figure out the puzzle, but Fi will tell you the solution either way.
Covering only the "surface" appearances also leaves out every time in Skyloft that an NPC suggests your next destination and then Fi immediately pops up to repeat more or less exactly what the NPC just said.
LegendofLex
Member
That TP sold worse than OoT despite releasing in 2006, on two platforms, one of which had a dramatically bigger install base and presence worldwide than N64, speaks volumes for how well TP was received (from a quality perspective) in the long-run, once the hype that we were getting a Zelda that was supposed to align with OoT fans wore off.
I don't think the real issue is "mechanic bloat" so much as the creators' attitudes about the core gameplay (exploring, fighting enemies) and about how the player learns how to play the game (which translates to the game's mechanics feeling like bloat on top of a weak core). Nothing about SS's mechanics in and of themselves was particularly bad; it was how unnaturally they were implemented in a lot of the actual game content that ruined them.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
How are you supposed to learn how to play now????
The only tutorial you ever need.
It's really obnoxious.
I mean, I think it's great that Aonuma will have less tutorials, but I'm just tired of the internet hyperbole about SS.
That was a good tutorial.
Only if immediately after grabbing the sword, Link stabbed the guy right in the stomach.
Online walkthroughs. Duh.
Because the series has evolved into 3D, become more complex, tried to innovate as a 28 year running series and I guess nintendo broadening their audience in the wii gen maybe had an impact. They couldn't just keep making zelda 1 and 2 sequels for 28 years without much change.
Your not told how to to everything, just taught the new things to avoid people (particularly non zelda vets) a lot of frustration. You're still fighting monsters, and the world was designed differently only in SS as a result of the reception to the vast but empty feeling TP's overworld as well as other zelda's. It was just one game where they tried something different and they seem to be going back the the essence of the retro zelda's in ways with ALBW and Zelda U after SS's reception.
Fair enough, you didn't like the story or those characters, I didn't think much of them either, but I just didn't agree with people critising TP's intro as tutorials when a large part of it is story.
Many of the characters in the village are a part of the gameplay in TP. Maybe it's because you didn't care for them they meant nothing to you in the gameplay segments.
TP's tried contextualized it's mechanics well with the narrative I thought. As for spacing them too far, well you're doing a lot between things in TP's intro. This is a good description and explanation of TP's intro I recommend reading (not written by me).
SweetDonuts
Member
I've thought this too.
He seems really determined to shake things up for Zelda U. I just hope with the fresh ideas they can keep the charm Zelda games have.
Opinionatedfish
Member
For me, I thought the owl was fine in Link's Awakening. When he would show up, that meant the plot was advancing. He had interesting things to say. When he showed up in Ocarina of Time, he just mentioned the lore and didn't do much else. That was a touch disappointing.
Less tutorial is cool though.
Less tutorial is cool though.
Hyperactivity
Banned
Fishing, annoying kids, first of the long and boring twilight zones (although Wolf Link is great), cats, goat herding, cradle fetching with falcon/hawk, monkey chasing, and more crap that not only makes the tutorial ridiculous in length but ISNT USED THROUGHOUT THE REST OF THE GAME
LegendofLex
Member
I wasn't commenting on the changes as much as I was commenting on how Nintendo's efforts to supposedly address the fact that the series is "more complicated" are actually the main reasons why getting through the game has become a lot more complicated. And by that I mean the long string of linear tasks they put in front of the player to get him/her from the beginning of an area to the end of it, not just tutorials (though it is especially exemplified in tutorials).
It's no longer "explore until you find the dungeon," with hints from NPCs if you need them (Although ALBW is a huge step in the right direction.) It's recently been more like "follow the NPC instructions until you find the dungeon," with things to interact with ("explore?") as you walk between points A & B.
See, but I often don't feel like I'm fighting monsters, even when I am. I feel more like I'm a lab monkey who's forced to do the same trick (respond to the same weak spot) over and over again. The combat today is more like a puzzle (or a KH-style attack spamfest) than the dynamic, challenging combat of previous Zeldas.
You're right. They responded to TP's vast and empty feeling overworld by making an even vaster and more empty feeling sky through which you must travel (no warping) to reach any of the actual surface areas.
Gyro aiming owns.
'You got a Red Rupee. It is worth 20 Rupees! Don't spend it all in one place!'
I can't even play the bastard game let alone spend my rupees because everytime I run into a non green diamond I get a text box on my screen stopping me from doing anything until ie acknowledged something I knew 15 bastard hours earlier into the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't even play the bastard game let alone spend my rupees because everytime I run into a non green diamond I get a text box on my screen stopping me from doing anything until ie acknowledged something I knew 15 bastard hours earlier into the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Amazeballs
Member
Why can't Zelda crawl?
Honestly, this is the most egregious one to me.
It makes no sense.
And the bug notifications.
Hyperactivity
Banned
A little ot but I really wish Aonuma would have just ran around the field a bit instead of showing us that boss chase scene. The visuals are fantastic but that was a lousy first trailer. SS first trailer was meh too. TP first trailer as hype as fuck.
Bring back Conan for Zelda reveals!
Bring back Conan for Zelda reveals!
MADGAME
Member
The Windwaker HD implemented this and it was glorious.