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eSports and the Fighting Game Community

as a spectator of fighting games (and a shit player that has given up), I would love to see the FGC blow up and get some serious money pots. Shit is engaging as hell to watch. EVO was great, but I was surprised at how little money (in the grand scheme of things) people were pulling. Being #1 in the world at that shit should = $$$$.

Granted this is an opinion of an outsider.
 
Prize money is higher in SC2 and MOBAs compared to fighting game tourneys.

Partly because of the developers or other organizations. Blizzard has contributed lots of money. Valve's 1 million for a yearly event. Riot committed to 5 million for the season. IGN (owned by Rupert Murdoch's empire) sunk money into their IPL venture. The NASL's guy sunk 140k of his own money into his two seasons so far. I think they've seen what's possible in Korea with a competitive scene focused on one single game. This brings in big sponsors, because PC gamers need hardware. It's unclear at the moment if the current scene is sustainable in the long run, whether or not these contributors get sufficient return on investment.

So it's really about Capcom and fighting game peripheral makers to see how close they can get to this. Maybe the fighting scene is different in that they need new games every year to keep it fresh. Or that there aren't enough relevant hardware producers.
 
perryfarrell said:
So it's really about Capcom and fighting game peripheral makers to see how close they can get to this. Maybe the fighting scene is different in that they need new games every year to keep it fresh. Or that there aren't enough relevant hardware producers.
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You buy a stick, you're pretty much done. (Unless you're Markman of course.)
 
In bed sick, doing work.. but I felt this photo from this past weekends NASL Grand Finals was relevant.

6463714579_b09c6d0465_b.jpg


I invited friends from Level Up (Potatohead, Offcast, Ultradavid) to come experience an eSports event. I feel as though a lot of the apprehension is a lack of awareness on what's exactly going on with that side of the fence so it'll be interesting to see how feelings change over time.

I really want to respond to Tom's article as I got all the respect in the world for him. Just too sick / tired at the moment to do it :( I'll write something up when I get the chance this week but I've been following along with all the debate everywhere and whether I agree or disagree with what I read, I'm just glad everyone is engaged.
 
The other side is the same, but reps SRK. Hmm... guess ruining wasn't a strong enough word.
Have any of them been to a bigger event?

I met Gootecks, Scoots (obv.) Marn, JWong, and Floe at Blizzcon. Nabbed pictures too. Blizzcon was crazy. Crazzzzzzzzzy.
 
Hazaro said:
The other side is the same, but reps SRK. Hmm... guess ruining wasn't a strong enough word.
Have any of them been to a bigger event?

I met Gootecks, Scoots (obv.) Marn, JWong, and Floe at Blizzcon. Nabbed pictures too. Blizzcon was crazy. Crazzzzzzzzzy.
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Haha.. Yeah, AJ wrote the first side and I had to correct him. "No, no, no.. nothing can ruin eSports, but everything can potentially KILL eSports." Dem jokes.

I'm actually pretty sure they all went to Blizzcon, which is almost not fair since Blizzcon 2011 was so out of control in terms of blowing the scene up that it pretty much sets the bar way too high. NASL was good for them.. the awkward low turnout helped temper expectations but was also like "This is what happens when something goes meh.. it's still pretty awesome."
 
Mr Jared said:
Haha.. Yeah, AJ wrote the first side and I had to correct him. "No, no, no.. nothing can ruin eSports, but everything can potentially KILL eSports." Dem jokes.

I'm actually pretty sure they all went to Blizzcon, which is almost not fair since Blizzcon 2011 was so out of control in terms of blowing the scene up that it pretty much sets the bar way too high. NASL was good for them.. the awkward low turnout helped temper expectations but was also like "This is what happens when something goes meh.. it's still pretty awesome."
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Hmm, that's too bad. I found every single person of interest and got their picture. Even got John the Translator and Bisu+Fantasy YES. Next time I'll keep an eye out for more fighting people.
I asked Gootecks if Ski was there since I know he watches SC, but he didn't know.

Maybe next IPL I'll see you if I get in as a helper. Or you can hook me up with a job. I'd take that.

*All things aside on this issue. What it comes down to, to me as a viewer. I want the best entertainment. I want 4 EVOs a year. I want players to be rewarded and the community to stay intact. More this. (Blizzcon 2011)
WYQNT.jpg

bv1Zg.jpg
 
Freshmaker said:
You buy a stick, you're pretty much done. (Unless you're Markman of course.)
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Pretty much, I'm not sure what else can be sold to players that they need or could really use. All that's left is to market something to them that you hope they want like apparel. A few small companies have sprung up from the recent fighting game explosion and they support major tournaments, but they can only do so much. So they donate some of there stuff but in no way can they pour thousands of dollars into the pot or anything like that. So I'd like to see things get much bigger, but I have no idea what else they could do to make that happen besides being one of the main games at MLG where console games flourish, at least somewhat.
 
One of the big differences between FGs and other competitive genres like RTS or FPS or whatever is that getting better at them absolutely requires some sort of local scene, or a willingness to regularly travel to places where such a scene exists. Improving the quality of online play is far more important than sponsoring more tourneys or increasing the pots generally, IMO.
 
@MUWANdo said:
One of the big differences between FGs and other competitive genres like RTS or FPS or whatever is that getting better at them absolutely requires some sort of local scene, or a willingness to regularly travel to places where such a scene exists. Improving the quality of online play is far more important than sponsoring more tourneys or increasing the pots generally, IMO.
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In any game where single frames matter, it's not really possible for online play to replace local for a competitive scene that has access to local play, due to the physical limitations of latency.
 
Inkblot incorrectly said that MLG didn't work with the fighting game community like they did with SC2, which is wrong. MLG went onto Tekken forums and asked for feedback and updated it in order to provide a better stream for them. I'm sure Markman can vouch for me. I used to visit the Tekken forums to read about that.

I just feel like the FGC can become even bigger right now if more money was injected for the players. We've got the passion, size of community, and polarizing players. Of course there is nothing wrong with the FGC right now and the tournaments, but I want us to blow up much like SC2 has blown up.
 
I'm surprised there aren't more TV/monitor and headset plugs for fighting games - for gameplay that requires such a full concentration and the most detailed per frame reaction, you'd think they'd advertise more of the output hardware.

And also a very simple and obvious advertisement that can benefit streamers greatly is food/drink advertisement for the commentators (gatorade, vitamin water, or any other energy drinks are the most obvious sponsors).

It's definitely not just input hardware that can be a big advertised sponsor for the FGC.
 
EviLore said:
In any game where single frames matter, it's not really possible for online play to replace local for a competitive scene that has access to local play, due to the physical limitations of latency.
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Sure, but the idea is to improve the netcode to the point where you could say it's "close enough", and by that I mean it's no so bad that you're forced to completely adjust your play style if you wanna play online. Most FG netcode doesn't even begin to approach that standard; a lot of 'em are downright unplayable online.

There are plenty of people who are never going to improve because they don't have a local scene to play with or the means to get to one, but could potentially improve or at least gain a better understanding of higher-level play if they were able to play online with reasonable netcode. As the "fighting game literacy" of the general fanbase goes up, so will the quality of upper-tier play, as well as the number of people willing to commit regularly to streams or specialty sites like SRK or whatever.

Raising the pots might improve things from the top down, but making the competitive scene (or some facsimile of it) more accessible and viable to every player would improve things from the bottom up.
 
@MUWANdo said:
Sure, but the idea is to improve the netcode to the point where you could say it's "close enough", and by that I mean it's no so bad that you're forced to completely adjust your play style if you wanna play online. Most FG netcode doesn't even begin to approach that standard; a lot of 'em are downright unplayable online.

There are plenty of people who are never going to improve because they don't have a local scene to play with or the means to get to one, but could potentially improve or at least gain a better understanding of higher-level play if they were able to play online with reasonable netcode. As the "fighting game literacy" of the general fanbase goes up, so will the quality of upper-tier play, as well as the number of people willing to commit regularly to streams or specialty sites like SRK or whatever.

Raising the pots might improve things from the top down, but making the competitive scene (or some facsimile of it) more accessible and viable to every player would improve things from the bottom up.
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Sure, unfortunately most of these fighting games are also designed in Japan and playtested in Japan, where fast connections and low geographical latency are the norm. Seth Killian has ranted in frustration about how he can't get Capcom Japan to take him seriously at all about netcode improvements since the issues don't present in playtesting over there.
 
thanks FGC of Seoul Station for helping me get my Tag2 Banapass registered! :D everyone was really helpful and got over the language barrier no worries. Might have pissed off some guys though because we broke the streaming computer doing so...

any Gaffers coming to Busan for the WCG finals? I'm the Tekken tournament referee there.
 
And part of the feedback should be on how to not compromise inputs of a player in a match. OR give players options based on their latency to pick different ways the online is handled.
 
amtentori said:
The fact the ppl got offended by such a slight (and obviously not ill meaning) comment means that the community clearly lacks maturity.

Other communities like SC are extremely self deprecating because it is funny. Buttom mashing heroes is funny. Just like how SC players are called nerd ballers or cheesers, etc. It is all in good fun and it is embracing the nature of competitive esports.

Of course gamers know that fighting games are more than just blind button mashing at the highest level. Yet again, that is what the best players to. They are mashing buttons in meaningful ways that are better than their opponents. The fact that the term is associated with noobs or with a bad game does not mean ppl should take offense. It is all in good fun.

Fighting games should be a part of esports.
I definitely do not play games competitively, yet I watch SC2. Why? It is entertaining. Not because I enjoy watching little aliens kill each other, but because I enjoy the casting, I enjoy the players, and I enjoy the strategies. Same reasons I like watching basketball and football.
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dude, calling a fighting game player a button masher is like calling a black person the n word.
 
How far back does everyone's esports history go? Just curious to see who started with SC2 and who remembers events way back like Red Annihilation and who knows names like Thresh. Seems to me that people who have started out with SC2 or started to follow along around that time have a pretty rosey outlook on esports as a whole where as if you look back through esports history you'll see it's not all rainbows and happiness. That's not to say I have a negative view of esports but I'm certainly hesitant to think that it'll help the FGC expand greatly without there being a huge impact.
 
awwyeahgurrl said:
How far back does everyone's esports history go? Just curious to see who started with SC2 and who remembers events way back like Red Annihilation and who knows names like Thresh. Seems to me that people who have started out with SC2 or started to follow along around that time have a pretty rosey outlook on esports as a whole where as if you look back through esports history you'll see it's not all rainbows and happiness. That's not to say I have a negative view of esports but I'm certainly hesitant to think that it'll help the FGC expand greatly without there being a huge impact.
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I followed competitive Halo since late 2006. Started following FGC in 2008. I had watched video of competitive play before 2006, but didn't really seek out the communities for some reason.
 
EviLore said:
Sure, unfortunately most of these fighting games are also designed in Japan and playtested in Japan, where fast connections and low geographical latency are the norm. Seth Killian has ranted in frustration about how he can't get Capcom Japan to take him seriously at all about netcode improvements since the issues don't present in playtesting over there.
Click to expand...

It's not like Netherrealm/Other Ocean are really doing any better - MK9's netcode was shocking before the patch, and the MK Arcade Kollection has the worst netcode I've ever experienced.
 
ThatCrazyGuy said:
Ultimately, this is up to the player base though? If the masses don't want to play KOF13, isn't that just the truth of it? At that point you are advocating something that people hate, in pushing a game on people that they don't want.

The communities that play the niche games have to become bigger through the basic means of more people wanting to play them and go out to tournaments for them and to watch them on stream.

I too would like to see other fighting games take hold, but hey, if people don't want to play them, they don't want to play them. Maybe they don't find them fun.

How come we americans don't get into Tekken/VF like asia? Who knows, just player base taste.

It's like, people try to push soccer in America, but it will never take over American football.

capcom games are american football. And you know what? I love me some NFL. I also watch soccer, so I am in the minority.
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Ultimately, yes, it's up to the players. But it doesn't start with them, it starts with the games. And when I look at the fighters we have to play currently, I can see why the masses aren't playing anything besides Capcom fighters. Tournament players and fighting enthusiasts are going to play whatever they like, but for the casual player, things like good netcode really matter.

It isn't enough to just say, "Well, they don't want to play BB/KOF/Tekken/whatever, that's that." We need to look at why if we ever want things to change. How many of the masses, the casual fighting fans, even know about KOF? Or have tried it for themselves? Or have seen a hype tournament or casual match of it to get them excited and wanting to try it? How many have tried it and then gotten frustrated that the online was bad? Versus how many have said it just plain wasn't fun? I honestly don't know, but I have a hard time thinking many people have even gotten far enough with it for us to answer that last question.

I wasn't talking about pushing games people hate and forcing the community to accept anything, I just wish Capcom fighters weren't looked at as the only thing to play by most people.

Mr Jared said:
In bed sick, doing work.. but I felt this photo from this past weekends NASL Grand Finals was relevant.

6463714579_b09c6d0465_b.jpg


I invited friends from Level Up (Potatohead, Offcast, Ultradavid) to come experience an eSports event. I feel as though a lot of the apprehension is a lack of awareness on what's exactly going on with that side of the fence so it'll be interesting to see how feelings change over time.

I really want to respond to Tom's article as I got all the respect in the world for him. Just too sick / tired at the moment to do it :( I'll write something up when I get the chance this week but I've been following along with all the debate everywhere and whether I agree or disagree with what I read, I'm just glad everyone is engaged.
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Can someone explain the side bet thing to me? I've never seen the impact of it. Is it really bad or is this just supposed to be a funny poster?
 
Rice-Eater said:
It makes me wonder how Laugh and Infiltration get around. They're both great players but lack the popularity like that of there fellow countryman Poongko who has had his travel expenses taken care of for every international tournament he has attended with the exception of EVO. They've attended several US majors this year and have had bad luck of running into and losing to Japanese players(mainly Infil). This time they got it right by going to Dreamhack where there only threats were the top European players. And those guys are good but Infiltration proved he was better. But still, I wonder how Laugh and Infiltration were able to travel to the US and back about 4 times this year. That's a shit load of money spent without the results to even cover the cost of travel let alone profit from it.
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a) TOs pay for their flights, and b)Laugh has a business selling joysticks, parts, and accessories, as well as a day job, I believe, so he has a little more disposable income than the average player.
 
Outside of superplays and speedruns, fighting games are the only games that I can watch. FPS and RTS are nowhere near as exciting (to spectate).
 
@MUWANdo said:
Sure, but the idea is to improve the netcode to the point where you could say it's "close enough", and by that I mean it's no so bad that you're forced to completely adjust your play style if you wanna play online. Most FG netcode doesn't even begin to approach that standard; a lot of 'em are downright unplayable online.

There are plenty of people who are never going to improve because they don't have a local scene to play with or the means to get to one, but could potentially improve or at least gain a better understanding of higher-level play if they were able to play online with reasonable netcode. As the "fighting game literacy" of the general fanbase goes up, so will the quality of upper-tier play, as well as the number of people willing to commit regularly to streams or specialty sites like SRK or whatever.

Raising the pots might improve things from the top down, but making the competitive scene (or some facsimile of it) more accessible and viable to every player would improve things from the bottom up.
Click to expand...

What do you think about GGPO's approach of letting the player choose between playing with input lag or zero lag (or at least the illusion of it) but with the possibilities of the action "rolling back" every now and then depending on the connection between players?

For anyone wondering what I'm talking about I'd recommend reading this explanation of how GGPO works by the Skullgirls devs.
 
awwyeahgurrl said:
How far back does everyone's esports history go? Just curious to see who started with SC2 and who remembers events way back like Red Annihilation and who knows names like Thresh. Seems to me that people who have started out with SC2 or started to follow along around that time have a pretty rosey outlook on esports as a whole where as if you look back through esports history you'll see it's not all rainbows and happiness. That's not to say I have a negative view of esports but I'm certainly hesitant to think that it'll help the FGC expand greatly without there being a huge impact.
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Gotta agree. Seeing the rise and fall of the CPL really opened my eyes to the tough road esports has if it is ever to become as big as many people hope it will.
 
Sundance reiterates that bad blood between just a few people on each side is what is holding back capcom fighting games making it to MLG.
 
biosnake20 said:
Interview with the founder of EVO(Tom Cannon) live. They're talking about a league for fighting games or MLG picking up fighting games. Sundance from MLG right after.
http://www.twitch.tv/livevvvgaming
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Sundance mentioned there is a good chance that MLG will be running fighting games with or without Capcom games next year.

But apparently relations with Capcom have improved a lot since their last talk. He mentioned something about it not being so much about Japan anymore. Not sure if he was talking about Capcom corporate or the scene.

Interesting.
 
Esports aka MLG didn't care about the FGC when it was small. Now that it's big, they just want to make $ off of the FGC.

And it frustrates esports that the FGC doesn't want to join them. We don't want you or need you.

Go away.
 
kr2t0s said:
Esports aka MLG didn't care about the FGC when it was small. Now that it's big, they just want to make $ off of the FGC.

And it frustrates esports that the FGC doesn't want to join them. We don't want you or need you.

Go away.
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Good shit on being captain obvious. MLG is a BUSINESS. That doesnt mean we shouldnt work with them. Your right, we don't need them but they could help the FGC grow alot more and quicker.
 
LegatoB said:
Feel free to explain how that works & why it's beneficial.
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Well first off sponsors, and in turn prize money. They can bring more money into it and can make payouts to top 8 consistently which most majors cant. More money will help more players make money which is one of the main goals of the FGC. Also obviously there could be more views for these tournaments from the people that watch the other stuff on MLG. The more viewers the better. More money and more viewers for the community is a good thing and will help it grow.
 
biosnake20 said:
Well first off sponsors, and in turn prize money. They can bring more money into it and can make payouts to top 8 consistently which most majors cant. More money will help more players make money which is one of the main goals of the FGC.
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I thought the point of the FGC was to play fighting games with other dudes who liked to play fighting games, not to become a job for the top 8 dudes in the country.
 
What's up with people thinking hype would go away if MLG picks it up? People get hype because of the matches, and the spectators. Commentators only hype up the stream monsters. And even then, Evo was hype as shit, and everyone knows they had to tone down the hype for that. That was one of the main reasons, Spooky almost didn't get to stream Evo.

@Legato, not sure why that would change if MLG picked it up. If the community gets bigger, more people get to play with their bros. Right now, top players can't afford to play all the time because they need a job. If more money was in there, more people would be able to spend more time playing with other dudes.
 
KidA Seven said:
What's up with people thinking hype would go away if MLG picks it up? People get hype because of the matches, and the spectators. Commentators only hype up the stream monsters. And even then, Evo was hype as shit, and everyone knows they had to tone down the hype for that. That was one of the main reasons, Spooky almost didn't get to stream Evo.
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I see it the same way I see a wrestling event. Watching wrestling on TV and hearing JR and King's commentary is awesome, but it's still absolutely awesome to watch it live without commentary.

It the FGC made it to MLG, commentary would not be effected. People are seriously overestimating, like we'd outcast Yipes and Jaha from the community or something. We would still have Seasons Beatings. We would still have WNF and weekly events in EC, all with the fighting game commentary we've all come to love. Evo commentary was PG13, and it was just fine. That's how MLG commentary would be... I'm not seeing any problem.
 
Yikes @ anyone not wanting bigger prize money and exposure for the scene. All of that means more people start playing these games, more people watch the events, and more people devote a ton of time to getting good, and so the quality of the matches improves and the top guys get properly rewarded for their time and effort and skills.

LegatoB said:
I thought the point of the FGC was to play fighting games with other dudes who liked to play fighting games, not to become a job for the top 8 dudes in the country.
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It's extremely selfish and shortsighted to suggest that the top 8 players shouldn't be able to play full-time and make a living from it just because it isn't underground enough or doesn't benefit the "community" enough.
 
I think it's just a simple respect issue. The FGC feels that the rest of ESports look down on them, and while its growth hasn't been as big as the rest of the different esports scenes, it is growing purely on their own volition. They don't want to suck up to MLG, MLG should go to them.
 
Giving more financial incentives or sponsorship gives more reasons for people (even top players) outside of certain regions to enter in majors they previously can't attend to due to not having the monetary funds.

Also having a large tournament series outside of EVO would be awesome as well. (If the two leagues plan it them right.)

More spectacles for the viewers, more chances players to win, more matches, more fun.

EDIT ADDED: Nothing really wrong with the way things are now though.
 
EviLore said:
It's extremely selfish and shortsighted to suggest that the top 8 players shouldn't be able to play full-time and make a living from it just because it isn't underground enough or doesn't benefit the "community" enough.
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And how is this a good thing for the players involved?

Let's say $ does start coming in and lets say Justin Wong is one of them. He quits his job and becomes a fighting game pro. What's he realistically going to make a year? Let's be generous and say $40k a year.

Then after a few years he breaks his arm (could happen!). Does he have health insurance? Lets say mvc4 comes out and he straight up doesn't like it? Or what happens when little Noah is 15 years younger than him and has better reactions?

So now Justin is 30-35 and no longer able to win and now can't find a real job cause the only experience he has is dragon punching people?

This is why esports is a scam and takes advantage of young people.

The only people truly benefitting are the sundances, not the players.

The FGC is better off without MLG.
 
Phoenixazure said:
I think it's just a simple respect issue. The FGC feels that the rest of ESports look down on them, and while its growth hasn't been as big as the rest of the different esports scenes, it is growing purely on their own volition. They don't want to suck up to MLG, MLG should go to them.
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MLG did try to go to them. Someone sabotaged the deal with Capcom. And the rest of ESports does not look down on the fighting game community. If there is any community that should feel like the ESports community looks down on, it's the console shooters. No one respects them and yet they're not resistant to MLG.
 
kr2t0s said:
And how is this a good thing for the players involved?

Let's say $ does start coming in and lets say Justin Wong is one of them. He quits his job and becomes a fighting game pro. What's he realistically going to make a year? Let's be generous and say $40k a year.

Then after a few years he breaks his arm (could happen!). Does he have health insurance? Lets say mvc4 comes out and he straight up doesn't like it? Or what happens when little Noah is 15 years younger than him and has better reactions?

So now Justin is 30-35 and no longer able to win and now can't find a real job cause the only experience he has is dragon punching people?

This is why esports is a scam and takes advantage of young people.

The only people truly benefitting are the sundances, not the players.

The FGC is better off without MLG.
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Or, the players realize that they still won't make enough money, so they keep their jobs. They'll now have more money than what they have currently.

So there goes that.
 
KidA Seven said:
Or, the players realize that they still won't make enough money, so they keep their jobs. They'll now have more money than what they have currently.

So there goes that.
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That goes against the basic premise of the post he was responding to. You can't play full time and make a living from it, but not quit your job.
 
Still listening to the Sundance interview live and he's going about him not willing to have MLG pay the bill for games needed and without the publishers doing it there is no chance of them being in. Makes me think the Reason Capcom loves Evo and the grassroots scene is because they don't really need to fund these things and still get all the exposure. Sundance made a statement that 100k is a squirrel fart compared to the kind of support they need for these games. I don't see Capcom shelling out hundreds of thousands to have SFIV at MLG.
 
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