Support NeoGAF

[kmag]

There was a large Ex-pat community in Spain before and will continue to be, my parents who have a house out there and been constantly hit with new taxes from the Spanish government because they were not Spanish, that would not happen over here, most notably was a change in car driving where you now have to pay some hideous fee if you intend to keep a British car in Spain, taxes on the bank accounts because they are English based...

But Spain will not suddenly tell all these Ex-Pats to GTFO, simply wont happen

I know that, I was mostly being facetious earlier, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility they'll either have to get citizenship or pay for a visa to remain. In fact as each government would have to have some way of legitimatising ex EU migrants (you know so they could enter and leave the country at some point), there's almost certainly going to have to a process other than just everything staying exactly the same.

 

[8bit]

most notably was a change in car driving where you now have to pay some hideous fee if you intend to keep a British car in Spain, taxes on the bank accounts because they are English based...

If they're keeping a non standard (ie right hand drive) car on the roads there then paying a privilege to do seems reasonable or is there something else in play here?

 

[PipefishUK]

How much do we pay the EU?

It seems to be £30-50 million a day.

If anything I want to find out why we pay so much money in a time where we should be using it for better things. There needs to be more transparency with the EU, what is our money used on. Yes its only 0.5% GDP but using that figure alone would get peoples Jimmys rustled!

I mean Confederation of British Industry suggests the direct net economic benefits of membership to the UK are between £62bn and £78bn every year so that's a good figure that would be ignored.

It comes down to one thing this referendum... Migrants. They are flooding the streets of every town in Europe, they are groping women on every corner, every backpack you see has bombs or weapons in it and they are coming over here next! Unless we vote out when we can blow up the Channel Tunnel and defend our glorious Island!

Forget figures, majority of voters voting to leave will do so on the Migrants being kept out

The amusing part is though, for people who think like that - the French would have no reason to keep the deal where our border is on their land and theirs on ours. There's a high chance they'd just move the borders back and say to the refugees/migrants - go on, there you go! Let them through. Then what are we going to do? We can't send them back to an unrelated foreign country. It could make things a lot worse.

Not to mention that anecdotally, the UK has more citizens living in other EU countries than EU citizens living in the UK. All those, a lot of them old, all coming back at once?

THESE BLOODY BRITISH CITIZENS COMING BACK HERE AND, ERM, LEECHING OFF, ERM THEIR NHS! THEY FOUGHT IN THE WAR YOU KNOW? BASTARDS!

I actually kind of hope that the in campaign do a fuck load of scaremongering and it works.
The thing that does scare me is the fact that a lot of IN voters are young/students - exactly the people who won't get off their arses and vote. Whilst the OUT voters tend to be a bit more rabid and will definitely be getting off their arses.

 

[SlickShoes]

The very worst state of affairs would be if tactical voting in Scotland triggers an EU exit followed by a Scottish separation followed by a Scottish application to join the EU while the UK is negotiating to leave, followed by other EU countries threatening to leave and the potential breakup of the whole EU project. It would be a nightmare I tell you.

So count me IN.

How would this tactical voting work? If you are suggesting that pro independence folk would vote to leave the EU wouldn't it be massively obvious that this has happened? and if it did happen it would push the Scottish vote stats to look like we want out of the EU. If Scotland votes to be out of the EU then we have no real reason to push to leave the UK because we are agreeing with England.

The only way that this triggers another indy ref is if Scotland overwhelmingly votes to remain in the EU and England votes us out and we have to leave.

 

[Tak3n]

If they're keeping a non standard (ie right hand drive) car on the roads there then paying a privilege to do seems reasonable or is there something else in play here?

I don't know, my father said that all the changes have come about since the financial crisis, and Spain being broke... and he feels like they are being targeted because they are English with some weird taxes.... and I remember him saying it was going to cost 1000 euro to do the car registration...

This was a punitive measure designed to hit 'non Spanish' which would not happen in the UK

 

[Bananajama]

The amusing part is though, for people who think like that - the French would have no reason to keep the deal where our border is on their land and theirs on ours. There's a high chance they'd just move the borders back and say to the refugees/migrants - go on, there you go! Let them through. Then what are we going to do? We can't send them back to an unrelated foreign country. It could make things a lot worse.

Wouldn't happen; there's always going to be a border check there.
What may happen is the cost goes up.

But just because we leave the EU doesn't mean they'll be lax in the security

I know that, I was mostly being facetious earlier, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility they'll either have to get citizenship or pay for a visa to remain. In fact as each government would have to have some way of legitimatising ex EU migrants (you know so they could enter and leave the country at some point), there's almost certainly going to have to a process other than just everything staying exactly the same.

€100 Visa fee for Non-EU citizens.

2-3 month process and then that's it till the day you pop your clogs

 

[Tea Time]

The migrant card is always a good one to play unfortunately, perhaps people should be reminded of how it works both ways and that maybe their cheap holidays to Spain could be in jeopardy with a tumbling GBP and heightened airline fees.
If there's one thing people hate more than immigrants, it's the thought of having to spend more money for something.

But for a lot of the people voting 'out' based on immigration, particularly up here in places like this piss-poor Northern town, a holiday to Spain is already way out of their reach and is the least of their worries. When all they seem to see day to day are the negatives of uncontrolled migration, being reminded of things they already can't afford, or being called ignorant or stupid or racist isn't going to change their focus one bit.

I'm likely to vote 'in' personally but I'm yet to be convinced 100%.

 

[kavanf1]

I've travelled to and from Switzerland on business, there was very little difference between it and travelling to other European countries, certainly nothing that made me think it was problematic to travel to or from there. Also not sure what all the doom mongering about kicking all Brits out of Europe back to the UK is about. That would not happen.

 

[aygomyownroad]

I was speaking to my colleague today about the EU referendum and he said that he didn't know what to vote yet but said his wife would vote whatever gets Scotland another independence referendum.

As Sturgeon said at the weekend if we leave the EU she will demand another independence referendum. Now this is a dangerous precedent, SNP have a lot of sway with Yes voters, would many of them take my colleagues wife stance and vote to leave the EU in the hope of another referendum to leave the UK on the basis that we are no longer in the EU?
What would happen if we do leave the EU but majority of Scotland voted to leave the EU because of this hope of Indy ref 2?

Holyrood needs Westminster's permission to hold a referendum like this, would they turn around and say "no as the majority of Scots voted to leave the EU therefore you can't claim that their wishes were ignored/they voted for it".

Would we therefore be in a situation where we leave the EU just because of another independence referendum in Scotland that may not be granted by Westminster?

I'm not a Sturgeon fan. In fact I hate the SNP but I think it's a dangerous game she is playing here, have your opinion, join the stay camp or brexit camp but don't make yourself out to be in the EU camp when what your saying to your supporters is vote to leave and we will gain another independent referendum.

 

[PipefishUK]

Wouldn't happen; there's always going to be a border check there.
What may happen is the cost goes up.

But just because we leave the EU doesn't mean they'll be lax in the security



€100 Visa fee for Non-EU citizens.

2-3 month process and then that's it till the day you pop your clogs

I don't know the specifics of the deal, but if I was France, that's what I'd do. Why wouldn't they? It's not being any more lax, it's just passing on the problem for someone else to deal with.

Why is there always going to be a border check there? There wasn't until 2003 on whenever that deal was agreed. Before that we checked our side and they checked theirs.

 

[Tak3n]

I've travelled to and from Switzerland on business, there was very little difference between it and travelling to other European countries, certainly nothing that made me think it was problematic to travel to or from there. Also not sure what all the doom mongering about kicking all Brits out of Europe back to the UK is about. That would not happen.

it will be tactics from the in campaign, just this morning Michael Fallen basically telling us voting out is us saying we dont want to be safe anymore...as the police can not track criminals anymore. which is quite ironic as there is constant issues in the media of crimes committed by EU citizens who were criminals in their own countries and our police tell us they did not know this...

 

[Bananajama]

I don't know the specifics of the deal, but if I was France, that's what I'd do. Why wouldn't they? It's not being any more lax, it's just passing on the problem for someone else to deal with.

Why is there always going to be a border check there? There wasn't until 2003 on whenever that deal was agreed. Before that we checked our side and they checked theirs.

That agreement is outside of the current EU rules.

Its not formerly a part of being in the EU.

Rather an agreement between France & England

 

[Zutroy]

I was speaking to my colleague today about the EU referendum and he said that he didn't know what to vote yet but said his wife would vote whatever gets Scotland another independence referendum.

As Sturgeon said at the weekend if we leave the EU she will demand another independence referendum. Now this is a dangerous precedent, SNP have a lot of sway with Yes voters, would many of them take my colleagues wife stance and vote to leave the EU in the hope of another referendum to leave the UK on the basis that we are no longer in the EU?
What would happen if we do leave the EU but majority of Scotland voted to leave the EU because of this hope of Indy ref 2?

Holyrood needs Westminster's permission to hold a referendum like this, would they turn around and say "no as the majority of Scots voted to leave the EU therefore you can't claim that their wishes were ignored/they voted for it".

Would we therefore be in a situation where we leave the EU just because of another independence referendum in Scotland that may not be granted by Westminster?

I'm not a Sturgeon fan. In fact I hate the SNP but I think it's a dangerous game she is playing here, have your opinion, join the stay camp or brexit camp but don't make yourself out to be in the EU camp when what your saying to your supporters is vote to leave and we will gain another independent referendum.

Pretty much. It would be an extremely stupid thing for Indy voters to do.

Their best hope is the UK votes out with the overwhelming majority in Scotland voting to stay.

 

[8bit]

I've travelled to and from Switzerland on business, there was very little difference between it and travelling to other European countries, certainly nothing that made me think it was problematic to travel to or from there. Also not sure what all the doom mongering about kicking all Brits out of Europe back to the UK is about. That would not happen.

I moved to Switzerland from the UK 15 years ago, and I imagine other than the difference in border due to the sea an outed UK would probably work together with the rest of Europe in a similar fashion. People might need to apply for a work permit or residence permit if they've made their home in Spain or France but it's not going to end up with deportations unless they can't sustain themselves or have done something drastic.

I was speaking to my colleague today about the EU referendum and he said that he didn't know what to vote yet but said his wife would vote whatever gets Scotland another independence referendum.

No offence, but this sounds like a crazy gambit and Nicola is a pretty canny operator. I could imagine this originating out of the fringes of those still proclaiming to be of the 45% though.

 

[Audioboxer]

I was speaking to my colleague today about the EU referendum and he said that he didn't know what to vote yet but said his wife would vote whatever gets Scotland another independence referendum.

As Sturgeon said at the weekend if we leave the EU she will demand another independence referendum. Now this is a dangerous precedent, SNP have a lot of sway with Yes voters, would many of them take my colleagues wife stance and vote to leave the EU in the hope of another referendum to leave the UK on the basis that we are no longer in the EU?
What would happen if we do leave the EU but majority of Scotland voted to leave the EU because of this hope of Indy ref 2?

Holyrood needs Westminster's permission to hold a referendum like this, would they turn around and say "no as the majority of Scots voted to leave the EU therefore you can't claim that their wishes were ignored/they voted for it".

Would we therefore be in a situation where we leave the EU just because of another independence referendum in Scotland that may not be granted by Westminster?

I'm not a Sturgeon fan. In fact I hate the SNP but I think it's a dangerous game she is playing here, have your opinion, join the stay camp or brexit camp but don't make yourself out to be in the EU camp when what your saying to your supporters is vote to leave and we will gain another independent referendum.

I'm totally confused. Sturgeon is campaigning to stay in the EU and the referendum has only been proposed if Scotland vote to stay in and England causes us to have to leave.

If Scotland vote to leave we get no chance at a referendum as in this scenario we are probably leaving with the UK.

Either way Sturgeon is promoting a stay in vote not leave so I don't know why people you know are wanting to vote leave for a referendum. The SNP are telling Scots to vote to stay with the party endorsing that vote so again I have no idea where the trying to get Scotland to leave comes in.

 

[SlickShoes]

I was speaking to my colleague today about the EU referendum and he said that he didn't know what to vote yet but said his wife would vote whatever gets Scotland another independence referendum.

As Sturgeon said at the weekend if we leave the EU she will demand another independence referendum. Now this is a dangerous precedent, SNP have a lot of sway with Yes voters, would many of them take my colleagues wife stance and vote to leave the EU in the hope of another referendum to leave the UK on the basis that we are no longer in the EU?
What would happen if we do leave the EU but majority of Scotland voted to leave the EU because of this hope of Indy ref 2?

Holyrood needs Westminster's permission to hold a referendum like this, would they turn around and say "no as the majority of Scots voted to leave the EU therefore you can't claim that their wishes were ignored/they voted for it".

Would we therefore be in a situation where we leave the EU just because of another independence referendum in Scotland that may not be granted by Westminster?

I'm not a Sturgeon fan. In fact I hate the SNP but I think it's a dangerous game she is playing here, have your opinion, join the stay camp or brexit camp but don't make yourself out to be in the EU camp when what your saying to your supporters is vote to leave and we will gain another independent referendum.

You can't rig the vote like this, for Scotland to push for another indy ref you need the country to overwhelmingly vote to stay in the EU.

If lots of pro-indy people vote to leave the EU it will massively skew the Scottish vote putting us in line with the vote in England and we will have no grounds to have an independence referendum again if we are agreeing with England.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

BBC reporting, and would not surprise in the slightest, and the closer the vote the more fake promises will be rolled out

The leave campaign has been given a major boost by Boris Johnson, who says the only way to change the EU is to vote to go.
That has been seen by some as a nod to the possibility of a second referendum if a leave vote prompted the EU to offer a new deal - something No 10 has firmly dismissed.

I do love referenda, but I think one is enough here.

I think we all saw enough "How about now?" with the EU Constitution.

Edit:

Not to mention that anecdotally, the UK has more citizens living in other EU countries than EU citizens living in the UK. All those, a lot of them old, all coming back at once?

Erm, anecdotally, but not factually or according to any statistics? From this Guardian article:

According to government figures, there are 2.7 million EU nationals in Britain and 1.3 million UK citizens living elsewhere in the EU.

 

[amanset]

I would vote in, but now that I've lived in another EU country for more than fifteen years I have lost the right to vote. Which is quite annoying seeing as my right of abode here is based on the whole EU thing, so it'll affect me more than most Brits.

IN other news, I am just about to apply for Swedish citizenship. I can't risk my residency becoming complicated.

 

[Ovek]

Lol at the mayor of London throwing in with out of Europe.

Jesus Christ. What a shitshow and what a detestable cunt Boris continues to be.

Thats the future PM your talking about... haha

 

[Koriandrr]

This thread gives me hope. Haha.

If I could vote, I'd vote In.

But then again, I'm a filthy immigrant who's been here for 7 years and may as well get kicked out if it's voted out.

I am eligible to apply for a citizenship now, but if the vote is Out I may as well be looking to leave the country and citizenship will be out of the question....

 

[Mac@NeoGAF]

People in Scotland should vote on the issue at hand, EU membership.

Attempts to try and play a clever game into getting another referendum is just a disgusting, contemptuous manipulation of the democratic process and a anti democratic attempt at undermining the will of the majority who voted against independence in 2014.

Nationalists/separatists really are a sleazy bunch when it comes to democracy, only the answer they want is correct, anything else is of no concern to them.

 

[Tak3n]

I would vote in, but now that I've lived in another EU country for more than fifteen years I have lost the right to vote. Which is quite annoying seeing as my right of abode here is based on the whole EU thing, so it'll affect me more than most Brits.

IN other news, I am just about to apply for Swedish citizenship. I can't risk my residency becoming complicated.

you see, now I disagree with you, and I would of made that rule 5 years... I mean no offence at all, so please dont take any, but you have not lived here for a long time, why should you get any rights into deciding the future of the UK when you have decided to reside elsewhere?

 

[Tak3n]

This thread gives me hope. Haha.

If I could vote, I'd vote In.

But then again, I'm a filthy immigrant who's been here for 7 years and may as well get kicked out if it's voted out.

I am eligible to apply for a citizenship now, but if the vote is Out I may as well be looking to leave the country and citizenship will be out of the question....

my only concern is about trouble if we vote to leave, as there will be a lot of vitriol by the out campaign, but they need to be humble as there will suddenly be millions of people who lives are about to be different going forward

 

[Undead]

People in Scotland should vote on the issue at hand, EU membership.

Attempts to try and play a clever game into getting another referendum is just a disgusting, contemptuous manipulation of the democratic process and a anti democratic attempt at undermining the will of the majority who voted against independence in 2014.

Nationalists/separatists really are a sleazy bunch when it comes to democracy, only the answer they want is correct, anything else is of no concern to them.

I fully agree with you but would also like to add, it should apply for the entire UK, the amount of people I have heard say they will vote out just because it's not what Cameron wants is unbelievable.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

I clicked 'yes' by accident. See this is what happens when your New Year's Resolution is to say 'yes' more often

 

[Koriandrr]

my only concern is about trouble if we vote to leave, as there will be a lot of vitriol by the out campaign, but they need to be humble as there will suddenly be millions of people who lives are about to be different going forward

Is it really worth it to kick all these people out though.
I mean, that's suddenly so many jobs opening, so many people with their families having to leave. How many of these people do you think are in jobs like doctors or policemen?

Is this huge change for everyone really worth it in the long run?

 

[kmag]

People in Scotland should vote on the issue at hand, EU membership.

Attempts to try and play a clever game into getting another referendum is just a disgusting, contemptuous manipulation of the democratic process and a anti democratic attempt at undermining the will of the majority who voted against independence in 2014.

Nationalists/separatists really are a sleazy bunch when it comes to democracy, only the answer they want is correct, anything else is of no concern to them.

Outside of some niche 'international struggle' socialists, every fucking political party in the world is a nationalist party. You can count on the one hand the number of serious parties calling for an end of borders.

Labour? Nationalists
Lib Dem? Nationalists
Conservative and Unionist Party. Really fucking nationalist, the clue is in the second part of their name.

You just happen to like the arbitrary area of demarcation and the identity politics of those nationalist parties present and dislike the other arbitrary identity politics of other nationalist parties.

 

[Mac@NeoGAF]

Outside of some niche 'international struggle' socialists, every fucking political party in the world is a nationalist party. You can count on the one hand the number of serious parties calling for an end of borders.

Labour? Nationalists
Lib Dem? Nationalists
Conservative and Unionist Party. Really fucking nationalist, the clue is in the second part of their name.

You just happen to like the arbitrary area of demarcation and the identity those nationalist parties present and dislike the other arbitrary identity politics of other nationalist parties.

..only the SNP are trying to break up a country.

Only the SNP are trying to ignore the result of the 2014 referendum by continually picking needless fights with London in order to build up resentment and lay the ground work for another referendum when it suits them.

Right now, the SNP is the most contemptuous, mainstream form of nationalism on this Island (outside of the far right fringe groups).

The SNP have turned Scotland into a country of Nationalism vs Unionism instead of left vs Right.

 

[DistortionOfReality]

IN

Without a shadow of a doubt. Out would just be a huge mistake with trade costs alone.

 

[Wrestlemania]

People in Scotland should vote on the issue at hand, EU membership.

Attempts to try and play a clever game into getting another referendum is just a disgusting, contemptuous manipulation of the democratic process and a anti democratic attempt at undermining the will of the majority who voted against independence in 2014.

Nationalists/separatists really are a sleazy bunch when it comes to democracy, only the answer they want is correct, anything else is of no concern to them.

Is this really based on off one theory of tactical voting postulated by someone in this thread that made zero sense or is there some attempt at mass tactical voting being planned I've missed?

If the majority vote to stay while England votes to leave, it is a big enough shift from the situation of the last referendum to then ask the populace if this changes their view on whether they wish to remain the UK.

 

[amanset]

you see, now I disagree with you, and I would of made that rule 5 years... I mean no offence at all, so please dont take any, but you have not lived here for a long time, why should you get any rights into deciding the future of the UK when you have decided to reside elsewhere?

Because I am a British Citizen. That's what citizenship is. To spin it around, why should you get to choose something that would have a huge affect on me, but I do not? We are both British Citizens - or are we now defining different classes of citizens?

I also felt the same way when my Scottish mother wasn't allowed to vote in the Scottish Independence referendum, despite if they had gone independent it changing her citizenship status (as in, she gets a new one). That was fucking wrong and it was so transparently corrupt by the SNP controlled Holyrood, they knew that the majority of Scots living in England would have voted to maintain the status quo.

Edit:
Before anyone says it, there are significantly more Scots living in England than the other way round. This Independent article says:

There are an estimated 370,000 English-born people living in Scotland – and unlike the 830,000 ex-pat Scots now living south of the border, they get a vote.

Yeah, I have no time for the SNP. I have enough family members that are pro Independence and the crap I see from them is just ridiculous. Corrupt as fuck they are.

 

[kmag]

Because I am a British Citizen. That's what citizenship is. To spin it around, why should you get to choose something that would have a huge affect on me, but I do not? We are both British Citizens - or are we now defining different classes of citizens?

I also felt the same way when my Scottish mother wasn't allowed to vote in the Scottish Independence referendum, despite if they had gone independent it changing her citizenship status (as in, she gets a new one). That was fucking wrong and it was so transparently corrupt by the SNP controlled Holyrood, they knew that the majority of Scots living in England would have voted to maintain the status quo.

It's not wrong. It was a referendum of people living in Scotland including the Welsh, English, Northern Irish (who all btw voted no in greater numbers than 'native' Scots according to YouGov) if the Scottish government was really so nefarious surely they'd have 'corruptly' excluded those voters.

It wasn't a vote given on ethnic nationality. Absolutely nothing wrong that. You want to influence a country politically try living there. Nothing more annoying than ex-pats demanding votes. As for being British, what the fuck does that have to do with a section of the UK wanting to leave. You really think "no, I know you lot want to go but the rest of us really want you to stay so you can't" is a good look? Try switching that thinking to the current EU referendum...surely everyone in the EU should get a vote on the UK staying or going, after all we are all EU citizens.

 

[aygomyownroad]

I did a very scientific test on my post. I put it on Facebook.
10 yes voters for independence:
5 for staying in EU
5 for leaving

And no reason was down to Sturgeon saying about independence referendum 2.

So I was very wrong on my post here, I blame it on a sleepless night last night!

 

[Mac@NeoGAF]

if the Scottish government was really so nefarious surely they'd have 'corruptly' excluded those voters.

They would have if they thought they could get away with it and there are many nationalists who would advocate doing so in a 2nd referendum knowing the impact it had on the 1st referendum.

 

[kmag]

They would have if they thought they could get away with it.

Yep, of course they would petal. They're all out to get you.

 

[8bit]

I also felt the same way when my Scottish mother wasn't allowed to vote in the Scottish Independence referendum, despite if they had gone independent it changing her citizenship status (as in, she gets a new one). That was fucking wrong...

Can't agree with that, it was a vote for the people living in Scotland.

 

[Mac@NeoGAF]

Can't agree with that, it was a vote for the people living in Scotland.

So why are the UK government allowing British people living overseas (for less than 15yrs) a vote in the EU referendum.

 

[8bit]

So why are the UK government allowing British people living overseas (for less than 15yrs) a vote in the EU referendum.

Because it's their call to run the referendum as they see fit?

 

[anonymous_abc]

BBC reporting, and would not surprise in the slightest, and the closer the vote the more fake promises will be rolled out

This whole vote no to get the proper deal from Brussels is just ludicrous beyond belief.

 

[Mac@NeoGAF]

Because it's their call to run the referendum as they see fit?

It should not be acceptable for the SNP to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of Scots from a vote because they're scared it will lose them the vote (by a bigger margin than they did).

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

The amusing part is though, for people who think like that - the French would have no reason to keep the deal where our border is on their land and theirs on ours. There's a high chance they'd just move the borders back and say to the refugees/migrants - go on, there you go! Let them through. Then what are we going to do? We can't send them back to an unrelated foreign country. It could make things a lot worse.

Not to mention that anecdotally, the UK has more citizens living in other EU countries than EU citizens living in the UK. All those, a lot of them old, all coming back at once?

THESE BLOODY BRITISH CITIZENS COMING BACK HERE AND, ERM, LEECHING OFF, ERM THEIR NHS! THEY FOUGHT IN THE WAR YOU KNOW? BASTARDS!

I actually kind of hope that the in campaign do a fuck load of scaremongering and it works.
The thing that does scare me is the fact that a lot of IN voters are young/students - exactly the people who won't get off their arses and vote. Whilst the OUT voters tend to be a bit more rabid and will definitely be getting off their arses.

Just so you are aware, that agreement has nothing to do with EU.

That's a separate agreement between two countries with a problem who both desperately want to maintain the tunnel trade link as it benefits both.

Retirees are pretty ideal as a migrant, they tend to be loaded with wads of cash and are looking to spend.

 

[8bit]

It should not be acceptable for the SNP to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of Scots from a vote because they're scared it will lose them the vote (by a bigger margin than they did).

I haven't lived in Scotland for some time, my opinion weighed less than someone there day to day. I have the same opinion about the UK membership of Europe fwiw, but it is up to those running the referenda to poll the public the way they want.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Because I am a British Citizen. That's what citizenship is. To spin it around, why should you get to choose something that would have a huge affect on me, but I do not? We are both British Citizens - or are we now defining different classes of citizens?

I also felt the same way when my Scottish mother wasn't allowed to vote in the Scottish Independence referendum, despite if they had gone independent it changing her citizenship status (as in, she gets a new one). That was fucking wrong and it was so transparently corrupt by the SNP controlled Holyrood, they knew that the majority of Scots living in England would have voted to maintain the status quo.

Edit:
Before anyone says it, there are significantly more Scots living in England than the other way round. This Independent article says:

Yeah, I have no time for the SNP. I have enough family members that are pro Independence and the crap I see from them is just ridiculous. Corrupt as fuck they are.

Eh, how else could they realistically have done it? Is there a Register of Scottish Citizens somewhere? I think all the Scottish Government has is a list of people living in Scotland and census data of what nationality people consider themselves to be.

The SNP did propose a list of conditions for Scottish Citizenship in the event of a Yes vote, but I don't think a Scottish Register exists at the moment. It was really a choice between allowing UK citizens resident in Scotland to vote, or the whole UK.

Edit:

It's not wrong. It was a referendum of people living in Scotland including the Welsh, English, Northern Irish (who all btw voted no in greater numbers than 'native' Scots according to YouGov) if the Scottish government was really so nefarious surely they'd have 'corruptly' excluded those voters.

It wasn't a vote given on ethnic nationality. Absolutely nothing wrong that. You want to influence a country politically try living there. Nothing more annoying than ex-pats demanding votes. As for being British, what the fuck does that have to do with a section of the UK wanting to leave. You really think "no, I know you lot want to go but the rest of us really want you to stay so you can't" is a good look? Try switching that thinking to the current EU referendum...surely everyone in the EU should get a vote on the UK staying or going, after all we are all EU citizens.

Yeah, the current situation is sort of like the inverse of the Indyref. There is a British nationality, and so you can restrict the franchise to British people.

 

[kmag]

It should not be acceptable for the SNP to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of Scots from a vote because they're scared it will lose them the vote (by a bigger margin than they did).

That's not what happened, but please continue to wrap reality to fit your own prejudices.

I hate to tell you, but civic 'nationality' is basically par for the course for these sort of partial votes. Partly to do with reduction of complexity as there's normally no electoral register which record place of birth and 'local' nationality.. Just like the oft forgotten 1973 Northern Ireland sovereignty referendum only allowed people 'living' in NI to vote on whether they should be part of the UK or ROI.

The 1979 Scottish referendum, guess what that was also based on civic nationality. No expats voting there.

The Quebecois referenda, civic nationality.

Starting to see a pattern?

 

[liquidtmd]

How does GAF perceive Boris Johnson's actual opinion piece regarding his view?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...-the-change-we-want-vote-to-leave-the-EU.html

I can take or leave the man, but I actually found his comments to explain his view more insightful than the soundbites from the piece thrown about in the media.

Could have done without the heavy handed Churchill name-drops but I found it overall more even handed than most representations from either the prominent 'In' and 'Out' camps so far.

If the powers that be of either camp want to persuade the common man, they need to start relaying their position in this kind of manner IMO. I understand the stakes, but the mudslinging and both sides screaming 'If you're not with us you're against us' needs to stop.

 

[SlickShoes]

People in Scotland should vote on the issue at hand, EU membership.

Attempts to try and play a clever game into getting another referendum is just a disgusting, contemptuous manipulation of the democratic process and a anti democratic attempt at undermining the will of the majority who voted against independence in 2014.

Nationalists/separatists really are a sleazy bunch when it comes to democracy, only the answer they want is correct, anything else is of no concern to them.

The nationalists in Scotland are campaigning to stay in the EU, they are not trying to engineer a situation where they convince people to vote us out because it doesn't make logical sense or meet the conditions that would trigger another debate on Scottish independence.

They are rightly stating that should Scotland vote to stay in the EU and the rest of the UK vote us out then a new referendum should be discussed at that point. The political landscape in Scotland is completely different from England so this could happen, but there is no way to engineer it other than to convince everyone in Scotland to vote to stay in the EU and somehow then convince all English people to vote out. No amount of tactical voting can engineer another referendum, it's completely dependent on what happens in England and we have no control over that.

 

[kmag]

How does GAF perceive Boris Johnson's actual opinion piece regarding his view?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...-the-change-we-want-vote-to-leave-the-EU.html

I can take or leave the man, but I actually found his comments to explain his view more insightful than the soundbites from the piece thrown about in the media.

Could have done without the heavy handed Churchill name-drops but I found it overall more even handed than most representations from either the prominent 'In' and 'Out' camps so far.

It's a muddled position imho. It's vote no to get secure a better deal, not vote no to leave. As I mentioned previously, Boris isn't a natural out voter, he was brought up in Brussels his father worked for the EU and his family is pro-european. He's been relatively critical of the EU in the past but he's also been complementary as well and you can see that in this piece. His thinking on subject basically extends no further as this position will get him closer to the Tory leadership.

There is only one way to get the change we need, and that is to vote to go, because all EU history shows that they only really listen to a population when it says No ...

The people who run the various EU institutions – whom we like to ply with crass abuse – are, in my experience, principled and thoughtful officials. They have done some very good things: I think of the work of Sir Leon Brittan, for instance, as Competition Commissioner, and his fight against state aid.

They just have a different view of the way Europe should be constructed. I would hope they would see a vote to leave as a challenge, not just to strike a new and harmonious relationship with Britain (in which those benefits could be retained) but to recover some of the competitiveness that the continent has lost in the last decades.

 

[Dougald]

How does GAF perceive Boris Johnson's actual opinion piece regarding his view?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...-the-change-we-want-vote-to-leave-the-EU.html

I can take or leave the man, but I actually found his comments to explain his view more insightful than the soundbites from the piece thrown about in the media.

Could have done without the heavy handed Churchill name-drops but I found it overall more even handed than most representations from either the prominent 'In' and 'Out' camps so far.

If the powers that be of either camp want to persuade the common man, they need to start relaying their position in this kind of manner IMO. I understand the stakes, but the mudslinging and both sides screaming 'If you're not with us you're against us' needs to stop.

I thought it was mostly a nice change from the general daily mail soundbites that the most vocal people in 'out' parrot

Still voting 'in' though

 

[liquidtmd]

It's a muddled position imho. It's vote no to get secure a better deal, not vote no to leave. As I mentioned previously, Boris isn't a natural out voter, he was brought up in Brussels his father worked for the EU and his family is pro-european. He's been relatively critical of the EU in the past but he's also been complementary as well and you can see that in this piece. His thinking on subject basically extends no further as this position will get him closer to the Tory leadership.

I hear you and don't necessarily disagree. However the bolded he addresses directly in the article

I am a European. I lived many years in Brussels. I rather love the old place. And so I resent the way we continually confuse Europe – the home of the greatest and richest culture in the world, to which Britain is and will be an eternal contributor – with the political project of the European Union. It is, therefore, vital to stress that there is nothing necessarily anti-European or xenophobic in wanting to vote Leave on June 23.

And his father has come out and said he doesn't necessarily agree and his Brother has come out tweeting he is Voting In to remain

 

[Mac@NeoGAF]

The nationalists in Scotland are campaigning to stay in the EU, they are not trying to engineer a situation where they convince people to vote us out because it doesn't make logical sense or meet the conditions that would trigger another debate on Scottish independence.

The higher the vote for 'remain' in Scotland the more ammo it gives Sturgeon to demand another referendum.

Of course this only matters if the weight of English votes result in a 'leave' vote, so yes it could be all academic, but many nationalists in Scotland will take the half chance at another referendum rather than no chance right now.