Support NeoGAF

[gokurho]

Eurogamer bolded them.

"We do very little that's going to force you to buy our console in order to play the games that we built."

"When you ask about Gen 10 I can say yes, but..."

"As soon as you start doing mid-gen refreshes, you've got a bunch of issues in front of developers."

"You're not going to be able to start with a console that's $500 thinking it's gonna get to 200 bucks."

"I don't see a world where we drop [Xbox Series] S."

"I have that list and I've got it stapled on my forehead."

More information in the link?

The definitive Xbox Gamescom interview

Earlier today I spoke with Xbox boss Phil Spencer to discuss the company's future in video games. Of course, there is t…

www.eurogamer.net

 

[winjer]

"As soon as you start doing mid-gen refreshes, you've got a bunch of issues in front of developers."

But somehow he thinks the Series S is not a problem for developers, but a mid-gen refresh with more power and features is?
A weak console will always force devs to do more work to manage the game to fit in constrained specs.
But a more powerful console, even if the dev is lazy, will always run the game as in the Series X. It can even benefit from basic stuff, like higher resolution.

 

[Tsaki]

Huh, so no mid-gen refresh from Xbox this time. Way to give up the power narrative for the second half of the generation. Will definitely sting to lose all the free "marketing" from performance face-offs on Youtube and media outlets.
Also, that first quote lol

 

[Topher]

But somehow he thinks the Series S is not a problem for developers, but a mid-gen refresh with more power and features is?
A weak console will always force devs to do more work to manage the game to fit in constrained specs.
But a more powerful console, even if the dev is lazy, will always run the game as in the Series X. It can even benefit from basic stuff, like higher resolution.

Yeah, I don't get the logic there either.

 

[mansoor1980]

"As soon as you start doing mid-gen refreshes, you've got a bunch of issues in front of developers."

so it has been a problem for them

 

[[Sigma]]

Elon Musk: You drop Series S. Lawsuit time

 

[veterangamerUK]

“We do very little”
No shit Sherlock

 

[Thirty7ven]

They are stuck with it, play stupid games win stupid prizes.

 

[Kenpachii]

But somehow he thinks the Series S is not a problem for developers, but a mid-gen refresh with more power and features is?
A weak console will always force devs to do more work to manage the game to fit in constrained specs.
But a more powerful console, even if the dev is lazy, will always run the game as in the Series X. It can even benefit from basic stuff, like higher resolution.

Depends on how you look at it. U see the series s as a weaker console, phil see's it as the base console and the xbox series X as the bigger brother.

In my view it's not bad to have games focus on series s, this makes developers constrain themselves on the lower end specs with games and makes games more scalable.

I don't think a more expensive xbox is going to do well for microsoft anyway, i do see it as more problems for developers as they now have to focus on yet another console. I can see price drops happen tho for there consoles if sony does come out with a stronger version of the PS5.

 

[kazuyamishima]

Some interesting points, no mid-refresh, and not admitting the Series S is causing problems for a lot of developers, especially small ones.

One thing he said that is true is about console prices staying flat, that’s why is hilarious to see many Switch users expecting Nintendo to make price drops. That’s why Sony would/have to do a redesign to get a better price.

 

[VitoNotVito]

But somehow he thinks the Series S is not a problem for developers, but a mid-gen refresh with more power and features is?
A weak console will always force devs to do more work to manage the game to fit in constrained specs.
But a more powerful console, even if the dev is lazy, will always run the game as in the Series X. It can even benefit from basic stuff, like higher resolution.

It's just another bs from Uncle Phil.
He'd say whatever suits Microsoft's rhetoric.
And people say Microsoft is the most "pro consumer"

 

[Hudo]

I am with him on mid-gen refreshes. Probably the dumbest shit to ever come out of the last gen.

 

[RoadHazard]

Depends on how you look at it. U see the series s as a weaker console, phil see's it as the base console and the xbox series X as the bigger brother.

In my view it's not bad to have games focus on series s, this makes developers constrain themselves on the lower end specs with games and makes games more scalable.

I don't think a more expensive xbox is going to do well for microsoft anyway, i do see it as more problems for developers as they now have to focus on yet another console. I can see price drops happen tho for there consoles if sony does come out with a stronger version of the PS5.

You mean it limits developers and holds games back. We're already seeing that.

 

[jm89]

Mid gen refresh is going to be problematic for xbox as it will create a bigger gulf between the series s and the pro console, and create more headaches for devs.

They probably realize this, so need to downplay a mid gen refresh.

 

[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

Just saw this tweet on my feed.



Here's a screenshot in case the tweet gets deleted.

 

[winjer]

Depends on how you look at it. U see the series s as a weaker console, phil see's it as the base console and the xbox series X as the bigger brother.

In my view it's not bad to have games focus on series s, this makes developers constrain themselves on the lower end specs with games and makes games more scalable.

I don't think a more expensive xbox is going to do well for microsoft anyway, i do see it as more problems for developers as they now have to focus on yet another console. I can see price drops happen tho for there consoles if sony does come out with a stronger version of the PS5.

Doesn't matter how Phill thinks about the Series S.
The reality is that the Series S is giving troubles to game developers, to the point that some studios have to delay their game's launch on the Series platform.

 

[Tsaki]

Yeah, I don't get the logic there either.

There is none. He has to downplay the inevitable PS5 Pro (and apparently the lack of a mid-gen Series) and at the same time not throw under the bus the majority of current-gen Xbox customers.

 

[Banjo64]

Huh, so no mid-gen refresh from Xbox this time. Way to give up the power narrative for the second half of the generation. Will definitely sting to lose all the free "marketing" from performance face-offs on Youtube and media outlets.
Also, that first quote lol

They’ve not had a power narrative since the console launched and the real world results went against them.

 

[Mowcno]

Won't do a mid-gen refresh because: "As soon as you start doing mid-gen refreshes, you've got a bunch of issues in front of developers." but is causing developers far more issues with the Series S than a more powerful console ever could. Bizarre reasoning really.

If multiple power sku's cause issues for developers then Xbox has been causing issues for developers since day one, and with it being a less powerful model doubly so.

 

[Banjo64]

Just saw this tweet on my feed.

Cross gen period is over - it was ok in the most part for the 1-3 year transition. Especially for Xbox One games like Ori and Gears at 120fps. As soon as I played Hogwarts Legacy and Elden Ring on it I knew it was in for a world of pain.

The PS5 (and be default Series X) will be the baseline if Sony truly do launch a PS5 Pro, and at that time things will get even worse for the S.

 

[Tsaki]

They’ve not had a power narrative since the console launched and the real world results went against them.

It depends. Their official marketing actually could use those terms and they did whenever they could, so the majority of exposure to the general public was this. It's not like Sony tried to counter it, by saying "The most powerful console overall, APIs, ease of development and custom hardware taken into account".

 

[Ozriel]

But somehow he thinks the Series S is not a problem for developers, but a mid-gen refresh with more power and features is?
A weak console will always force devs to do more work to manage the game to fit in constrained specs.
But a more powerful console, even if the dev is lazy, will always run the game as in the Series X. It can even benefit from basic stuff, like higher resolution.

Yeah, I don't get the logic there either.

his comparison of the XSS situation with mid gen refreshes is disingenuous for reasons winjer properlh captures. Though I don’t get the impression he’s saying there’s no challenge with the Series S. Though

I think the clearest thing we’ve gotten from this conversation is one thing we already knew: they aren’t going to drop Series S. He’s also clarified that there’s no parity clause with the Series S for performance and effects.

Looks to me they made a subpar decision and have to lie on that bed, and Spencer has to put as brave a face on it as he can.

Zero point in getting feedback after the hardware is released. You should consult developers first before finalizing the specs of the lower end version. They would be in an entirely different situation with just 4GB more VRAM at a higher bandwidth, plus a handful of more CUs at a higher clock speed to reach 6TF.

 

[Elios83]

Won't do a mid-gen refresh because: "As soon as you start doing mid-gen refreshes, you've got a bunch of issues in front of developers." but is causing developers far more issues with the Series S than a more powerful console ever could. Bizarre reasoning really.

It's bizarre because it's obvious damage control for the wrong choices they have made, an underpowered console which is causing development issues without the hardware sales they thought a lower price point would allow them to achieve + they're not doing a more powerful mid gen refresh because their strategy is not focused on console hardware anymore and they don't see the investement worth it.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

Just saw this tweet on my feed.

I mean...imagine having to release games for this thing by 2026...this will be a mess.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Yeah, I don't get the logic there either.

Spoiler: there isn't any logic.

It is simply "what I did was right" and "what others are doing is wrong."

 

[Heisenberg007]

I mean...imagine having to release games for this thing by 2026...this will be a mess.

They'd be lucky if they get rid of it by 2026. No way, though.

This gen will run until at least the end of 2028. Then comes the cross-gen period for at least 2 more years. So devs will be making Series S games for almost 2030.

 

[Riky]

Good news that he is adamant that Xbox hardware will continue, also he seems to hint at something I said a couple of months ago, will they try and disrupt the "generations" and go with a more modular PC like design in future.

 

[M1chl]

Mid gen refresh would be super easy for them tho, swap XSS with XSX HW and bring some beast.

 

[Ginzeen]

i never liked the series S. Should of made it the same power as the X. Series S is too weak. They should drop parity between the consoles at least. But i doubt that happens.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Won't do a mid-gen refresh because: "As soon as you start doing mid-gen refreshes, you've got a bunch of issues in front of developers." but is causing developers far more issues with the Series S than a more powerful console ever could. Bizarre reasoning really.

If multiple power sku's cause issues for developers then Xbox has been causing issues for developers since day one, and with it being a less powerful model doubly so.

Yep, and this is after they confirmed that Series X is their mid-gen refresh (lol). So the issue that Phil is talking about - they have already made that "mistake." As you said, bizarre.

 

[Z O N E]

I am with him on mid-gen refreshes. Probably the dumbest shit to ever come out of the last gen.

Yeah, it's actually stupid.

Especially since we haven't seen anything really take advantage of the PS5/XSX power. It's just ridiculous.

 

[Team Andromeda]

It's bizarre because it's obvious damage control for the wrong choices they have made, an underpowered console which is causing development issues without the hardware sales they thought a lower price point would allow them to achieve + they're not doing a more powerful mid gen refresh because their strategy is not focused on console hardware anymore and they don't see the investement worth it.

I love the irony of that post. If the PS5 wasn't underpowered itself there'll be no need for a Pro version either MS doesn't need to drop the Series S, but rather its price and also the silly parity clause


MS main issue for me is the pathetic PR and not showing off the Series X better and that needs to come for their In-House teams not 3rd parties

 

[Flutta]

He wanted to cripple this gen with Potato S, but instead it blew up on their faces. Ya love to see it.

And now he’s saying a mid-gen refresh is bad for devs? You can’t make this shit up.

What a hack this dude is. Living life on easy mode.

 

[Skifi28]

With every interview and every move they keep saying how they don't really care about the console side of things. I wonder if they'll eventually go third party at this rate.

 

[MrTired]

What happens with 3rd party developers when Xbox is showcase games after the PS5 Pro releases?

Do they show of there game at on Series X or High end PC?

If the choose the former that may put them at a disadvantage against games marketed with PS5 Pro. If the choose the later they may be accused of deceiving consumers by showing it on hardware that nearly all won't have access to.

Am I wrong in thinking it may affect there ability to obtain marketing deals?

 

[Heisenberg007]

He wanted to cripple this gen with Potato S, but instead it blew up on their faces. Ya love to see it.

And now he’s saying a mid-gen refresh is bad for devs? You can’t make this shit up.

What a hack this dude is. Living life on easy mode.

Yep. The dildo of consequences seldom comes lubed.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Mid gen refresh would be super easy for them tho, swap XSS with XSX HW and bring some beast.

They would kill the brand if they ditched the Series S.

 

[Tsaki]

With every interview and every move they keep saying how they don't really care about the console side of things. I wonder if they'll eventually go third party at this rate.

When ABK gets incorporated, Xbox will have more devs that were 3rd party and familiar with the Playstation ecosystem than pure Xbox-ecosystem devs. Something to think about.

 

[Topher]

He’s also clarified that there’s no parity clause with the Series S for performance and effects.

Yeah using ray tracing as an example. He also said...."I don't think you've heard from us or Larian, that this was about parity."

But he is wrong.



Of course he didn't deny the issue with BGS 3 was about parity. He simply says MS hasn't said it was about parity. He's being a bit coy.

 

[crackajack]

Just saw this tweet on my feed.

devs also despised the cell.
but good devs came close with multiplatform games to what sony did as their exclusives.
they just need to want to.

the biggest problem the S has is that it is just a portion of the smaller market share plattform. if the number was high enough, devs would have more incentive to not talk bad about it, but rather get their code in line. MS and AMD might have not ideally scaled the hw too, so it's not just flipping a switch as was probably the pipedream, but it is what is. stop whining and do your job behind doors and off the record.

some ps4 games ran questionable on ps4, while running suddenly fine on ps5 in its pro mode. mid gen refreshes introduced the very same problem for lazy devs and or too small teams, allowing them on brute forcing their game to run and depending on better hw but not actually optimising for each plattform properly. it is not ideal, mostly not convenient, but this split should be very easily planable, easier than adding it later and making it more cosmetic while some devs than also opt to do the superior version first and kinda neglect the base version too like all this usually sounds. devs probably would not want MS Sony and Nintendo and PCs either if they have their way, just one platform.

 

[kaizenkko]

Phil will say what he needs to say, but sometimes he just talk too much. Series S is causing problems for devs, those are just facts.

 

[SimTourist]

I mean...imagine having to release games for this thing by 2026...this will be a mess.

2026? Including the next-gen cross-gen period it has to last until 2030 and beyond... oof

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Xbox is a joke these days. Starfield won't fix that or make that magically not the case.

 

[balls of snow]

The spin! Series S is the kinect of this gen. If they dont have the S and did the same disc/digital only series x scheme we are totally getting a mid gen refresh.

 

[shamoomoo]

Depends on how you look at it. U see the series s as a weaker console, phil see's it as the base console and the xbox series X as the bigger brother.

In my view it's not bad to have games focus on series s, this makes developers constrain themselves on the lower end specs with games and makes games more scalable.

I don't think a more expensive xbox is going to do well for microsoft anyway, i do see it as more problems for developers as they now have to focus on yet another console. I can see price drops happen tho for there consoles if sony does come out with a stronger version of the PS5.

Then Microsoft should've have went with a machine in between the Series X and S or be like Nintendo and don't go for the best that money could buy.

 

[ZehDon]

On S, specifically ... we're taking feedback from devs including Larian, I met with them today to talk about it and I'm confident we're going to find a good solution and we're going to learn...

So, Microsoft is admitting their initial plans for how Dev's will support the Series S need adjustment. I'm curious here, because their scalability notion was based on data collected from the Xbone - hard metrics that most game's memory usage was HD textures by far. Their theory was that if Dev's used smaller textures to support 1440p instead of 4k, they could cut the system RAM and nothing else would need changing - smaller textures just use less ram. That's a relatively sound approach. So, if they have to learn, that would make me think it's not the RAM causing issues, because they were already all over that. I wonder where the Series S is falling down? The CPU is the same, so that rules that out, but the GPU and RAM are both paired back. I wonder if the smaller number of CUs is actually the culprit, less so the RAM?

...I don't see a world where we drop S. In terms of parity, I don't think you've heard from us or Larian, that this was about parity. I think that's more that the community is talking about it. There are features that ship on X today that do not ship on S, even from our own games, like ray-tracing that works on X, it's not on S in certain games. So for an S customer, they spent roughly half what the X customer bought, they understand that it's not going to run the same way...

Spencer debunks the "parity" notion for BG3. That just makes me more curious. Split screen is an obvious reason - Microsoft's own 343i had massive issues getting split screen running for Halo Infinite (though, 343i are also their least competent developer) - but it appears that's not actually the case. Baldur's Gate 3 is a technically proficient game, all things considered. If the Dev's at Larian are having issues, I don't imagine it's simple stuff getting in their way. As I said above, I'm now very curious what part of Microsoft's scalability notion is breaking down. If split screen isn't the cause, I imagine it's more foundational - which brings me back to the paired back GPU.

 

[M1chl]

They would kill the brand if they ditched the Series S.

Well mid gen updates, never killed the legacy HW. At least not in the last gen

 

[Metnut]

Phil Spencer is one of the best examples of the Peter Principle around.

 

[TheGodfather07]

Looks like Phil is back in won't shut the fuck up mode.

 

[Mr Moose]

Spencer debunks the "parity" notion for BG3. That just makes me more curious. Split screen is an obvious reason - Microsoft's own 343i had massive issues getting split screen running for Halo Infinite (though, 343i are also their least competent developer) - but it appears that's not actually the case. Baldur's Gate 3 is a technically proficient game, all things considered. If the Dev's at Larian are having issues, I don't imagine it's simple stuff getting in their way. As I said above, I'm now very curious what part of Microsoft's scalability notion is breaking down. If split screen isn't the cause, I imagine it's more foundational - which brings me back to the paired back GPU.

He's lying. Philocchio does that.