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European court: You are allowed to resell your digital games and software

I'm pretty sure Valve would love to do this. They already have the trading system in place, they can deduct a small part of the money from each sale as the facilitator and give most of that part back to the publisher while keeping some for themselves. It would basically be what publishers have been asking for years: a cut of the profits from the used market.

This. Just have a fixed percentage or fixed price for the transfer go to Valve (maybe even cut the developers a small percentage of that to keep them from bitching) for administrative duties and be done with it.

This isn't the end of Steam Sales or anything like that. Smart companies will actually use this to improve their DD offerings, and with Valves track record, I actually fully expect them to lead the way.

Closed systems like Steam can both comply with this ruling and be healthy if they are clever about it. They could for example demand that you can only sell the game according to the price you bought it for. You bought it full price, your resell base will be higher, you bought it on a sale, your resell base will reflect that.
 
So does this mean companies are obligated to provide a way to service used digital sales?

I mean, once the key is used, it's used. Can't sell what's tied to the account.
 

pvpness

Member
Great news! Can't wait to see how the majors implement a system. Would also be cool if we got some legislation like this in the States.

So does this mean companies are obligated to provide a way to service used digital sales?

I mean, once the key is used, it's used. Can't sell what's tied to the account.

Hopefully they implement a system where we don't have to bother with some 3rd party. Would be great if I could sell a game to a friend for $20 and not have to give any of it to anybody. Would be even better if companies that offer digital goods were forced to build systems to facilitate this method at no cost to the user.
 

kswiston

Member
Great news! Can't wait to see how the majors implement a system. Would also be cool if we got some legislation like this in the States.

0% chance of that happening. In fact, I think companies will use US law as a loophole if they are located in the US. Do what Amazon digital does where you technically have a US account.
 

2MF

Member
So does this mean companies are obligated to provide a way to service used digital sales?

I mean, once the key is used, it's used. Can't sell what's tied to the account.

My guess is that they would only be obligated to provide a way to transfer your license to another user. Users could then trade through ebay or any other trading site.
 

ElFly

Member
My guess is that they would only be obligated to provide a way to transfer your license to another user. Users could then trade through ebay or any other trading site.

My guess is that they would be only obligated to not put unnecessary hurdles for it.

It may make selling steam accounts acceptable for valve, but little else.
 

mclem

Member
Closed systems like Steam can both comply with this ruling and be healthy if they are clever about it. They could for example demand that you can only sell the game according to the price you bought it for. You bought it full price, your resell base will be higher, you bought it on a sale, your resell base will reflect that.

Doesn't that also have a hugely negative effect, when you factor in natural price deprecation, though? If you can only sell for 75% of your purchase price, people who purchase at a cheaper price can undercut you. Used sales aren't much use if no-one'll buy them!
 

pvpness

Member
0% chance of that happening. In fact, I think companies will use US law as a loophole if they are located in the US. Do what Amazon digital does where you technically have a US account.

This is what I typically expect in the States. Great for my buddies cross the way though. Will still be interesting to see what kind of ripples it'll send out.
 

2MF

Member
My guess is that they would be only obligated to not put unnecessary hurdles for it.

It may make selling steam accounts acceptable for valve, but little else.

That is a rather unnecessary hurdle, because in that case I could only sell all my games at the same time, and not one by one as the law allegedly says. It seems to break the spirit of this alleged law...
 

Aselith

Member
you could essentially buy in bulk during a steam sale and be able to resell them for cheap. I don't think it would be particularly good for DD

All they'd have to do is make a one per customer rule for sales and that would be much harder.

Also you can already do that with Steam gifting afaik.
 

kadotsu

Banned
I'm just happy that all the pay 2 win services could get hit with lawsuits if they unbalance their games to promote a new premium item line and don't include a way to trade/resell your now useless old premium items.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
How about something in English?

There's potentially a long way between "you're allowed" and "the publishers and platform holders are forced to make it easy for you by building the transaction backend required and changing the way current activation methods work and restrict the software".

If they're not forced in any of that then you can't really resell games unless you sell your whole Steam or whatever account.

How do you even enforce something like this for DRM-free games, how can you possibly regulate the transaction so that it only happens once and the seller actually destroys every copy on his end, when he's also allowed to make tons of them?

It could also make all companies integrate always-online DRM without even any offline mode to avoid the possibility.
 

pvpness

Member
I don't see how people see this as good news, unless you really hate the gaming industry and want to see them all put out of business

I don't really see how people see this as bad news, unless you hate consumer rights and want to see consumers be the last priority of business.
 

mclem

Member
That is a rather unnecessary hurdle, because in that case I could only sell all my games at the same time, and not one by one as the law allegedly says. It seems to break the spirit of this alleged law...
Sure, but it's not an *artificial* unnecessary hurdle; they didn't erect that just to stop you selling them separately. It's just how their system works.

I'm not sure I see them being required to put in the infrastructure to allow transfers. They could simply comply by allowing their CS to handle the changeover and be within the terms of the ruling.
 
Doesn't that also have a hugely negative effect, when you factor in natural price deprecation, though? If you can only sell for 75% of your purchase price, people who purchase at a cheaper price can undercut you. Used sales aren't much use if no-one'll buy them!

Possible, but I would think that Valve would probably be able to come up with a system that is both healthy for them/developers, and fair to it's users. The DD model will ultimately become the de facto standard for all digital content, and it is good that at least in Europe, the legal framework is being built for it to be a fair and balanced market.

I'm not much of an economy guy, but I'd expect clever business to use this ruling to their advantage. Seen as how Valve is one of the most customer friendly DD service providers, I'd expect them to become the first to provide users with a viable way of handling these resells through Steam.

Maybe buyers would have to pay the original price, but the seller only gets like 60% of that, while the rest goes to Valve/developers, if you choose to sell it over Steam.

these are the same people that champion amazon's tax dodging

I love sweeping generalisations.
 

mclem

Member
I'm just happy that all the pay 2 win services could get hit with lawsuits if they unbalance their games to promote a new premium item line and don't include a way to trade/resell your now useless old premium items.

If they're now useless, who'd buy 'em?
 

gabbo

Member
Doesn't that also have a hugely negative effect, when you factor in natural price deprecation, though? If you can only sell for 75% of your purchase price, people who purchase at a cheaper price can undercut you. Used sales aren't much use if no-one'll buy them!

Valve would probably implement a method of returning the license to Steam/removing it from your account for Steam Wallet funds, but not selling that license to another 3rd party.
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
I don't see how people see this as good news, unless you really hate the gaming industry and want to see them all put out of business

If you take your argument to the logical extreme. Folks would never be allowed to sell anything. You buy a car. You have to keep it forever. Or junk it and buy another one.

You buy a house. Yep. That's right. You'll never be able to sell it. If you want to move you'll end up with two mortgages and two houses.
 

2MF

Member
I don't see how people see this as good news, unless you really hate the gaming industry and want to see them all put out of business

Did the book industry go out of business because of Amazon and Ebay?

People can already resell retail games, if extending that to digital games makes the industry crash then the industry was already fucked to begin with...
 
If you take your argument to the logical extreme. Folks would never be allowed to sell anything. You buy a car. You have to keep it forever. Or junk it and buy another one.

You buy a house. Yep. That's right. You'll never be able to sell it. If you want to move you'll end up with two mortgages and two houses.

Something tells me that this car analogy will get you some nice reactions here^^

Edit:

why do people always bring up cars and shit, it's not a valid comparison whatsoever

That was fast lol.
 

pvpness

Member
If you take your argument to the logical extreme. Folks would never be allowed to sell anything. You buy a car. You have to keep it forever. Or junk it and buy another one.

You buy a house. Yep. That's right. You'll never be able to sell it. If you want to move you'll end up with two mortgages and two houses.

Which is why I responded with just as extreme hyperbole. But he didn't bite. ;)

Laws like this help consumers. That's a good thing for consumers. It's on companies to find a way to make it work and I have all faith that the video game industry will find all kinds of new and interesting ways to swindle us out of our money. There's really nothing to worry about.
 

Row

Banned
If you take your argument to the logical extreme. Folks would never be allowed to sell anything. You buy a car. You have to keep it forever. Or junk it and buy another one.

You buy a house. Yep. That's right. You'll never be able to sell it. If you want to move you'll end up with two mortgages and two houses.

why do people always bring up cars and shit, it's not a valid comparison whatsoever
 

pa22word

Member
People celebrating this need to get a reality check. This is very, very bad for consumers in europe as now publishers have to keep track of all legitimate licenses to make sure no unauthorized person is playing their game.

What does this mean? Diablo 3 DRM in every game.

There's no way to keep track of it otherwise. DRM is going to get more and more draconian whilst the little guys of the DD world who operate on the "honor system" like GOG and Desura are going to go belly-up.

It seems to me the people who decided on this didn't fully understand the ramifications of such a law when they put it through, because this is only going to make things so much worse for consumers in the long haul.
 

mclem

Member
Valve would probably implement a method of returning the license to Steam/removing it from your account for Steam Wallet funds, but not selling that license to another 3rd party.

If they do that, it's basically *exactly* a rental for a price of (new purchase cost - used rebate). In which case, why not become a rental service and be done with it?
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
The book industry is much older than ebooks, so what's the point of that question?
So, just like the games industry is older than the digital distribution... But that's the relevant bit here going by the thread title...

I'll answer it anyway... Maybe you can pretty soon, if this law means what we think it means.
Then you can't know if it will or won't harm it since it has yet to happen so why bring it up as a precedent?

I don't think it's even relevant to compare to non-digitally distributed software and objects. Sure, maybe used markets have been just fine in the past, games included, but the transaction in that case is rather transparent, often hard to find, and hard to exploit in large scale unless you have the gigantic presence of something like GameStop. If you do it all online and even do it with the help of the original distributor (ie like people say Valve could build the backend for it all) without enforcing any amount of $ to go to the software maker (or the publisher if such a deal is in place) then pretty much every buyer past week or month one could just as easily buy it used with no downsides whatsoever, unlike physical goods which are worn when used and have to be traded hand in hand, or with a more complex and time consuming procedure than a few mouse clicks. Which means a developer could never see any income beyond that small time frame, which for some may be the norm but many times games continue to sell over time, Minecraft sure didn't reach its current heights by the first sold alpha version or even close to that, it just grew over time.

Maybe there are ways to be profitable with such restrictions with DLC and F2P and whatever else but many games aren't suitable for that sort of system. How do you make something like The Witcher 2 friendly to such a system so that you can actually revenue beyond say, 100k who then resell it to another 100k the next week, who then resell it to another 100k the next week, until you end up with 3 million legitimate buyers, not pirates, of which only a 10% gave you a dime, which is quite a possible scenario with how easily accessible DD makes things compared to having to drive around in search of a physical copy in decent condition.

This could even stop companies from "traditionally" selling games altogether and charge you per play session (or time frame) like a credit card eating arcade coin-op game would. That sure would be disruptive, but I wouldn't like it more than the current situation which allows me some sense of ownership and manipulation of what I do with most of my games even if it's not to the full possible extent. And in the end we still wouldn't get most games with the dream of having full control, the publishers would just change the terms of the transaction so that it isn't an actual sale and so isn't affected by this law.

Note I'm not actually speaking against this happening, just questioning the logic some bring up to say it won't have any effects beyond cheap prices for anyone whatsoever. It's one thing to say you don't care because your own money is all that matters to you and this will allow you to get cheap games easily and money for your existing library, and a whole other thing to close your eyes to potential issues, or features, that could in fact affect what games and how they are available to you in the future. And if not you in particular because you're fine with whatever types of games are friendly to such systems alone, then the industry in general.
 

angelfly

Member
Always interesting when people are actively against their own consumer rights. I love gaming but the gaming industry isn't special. I shouldn't have to give up my consumer rights and let companies screw me over for the sake of seeing the industry thrive. If that's what it takes for the the gaming industry to continue then it definitely needs to go through another crash and get a reboot with a sustainable business model.
 

mclem

Member
Little money > no money back

Little benefit > no benefit.

Either the item still has a worth in the context of the game, in which case you can sell it to get some revenue but it's inherently not useless, so you'd be sacrificing the benefits you get from it, or it has no worth in the context of the game, in which case it is useless but you won't be able to sell it.

The logical conclusion to your reasoning for cynical F2P companies (at least, F2P companies cynical enough to introduce new premium items under the circumstances you outlined) would be to actually render the old premium items genuinely useless.
 
People celebrating this need to get a reality check. This is very, very bad for consumers in europe as now publishers have to keep track of all legitimate licenses to make sure no unauthorized person is playing their game.

What does this mean? Diablo 3 DRM in every game.

There's no way to keep track of it otherwise. DRM is going to get more and more draconian whilst the little guys of the DD world who operate on the "honor system" like GOG and Desura are going to go belly-up.

It seems to me the people who decided on this didn't fully understand the ramifications of such a law when they put it through, because this is only going to make things so much worse for consumers in the long haul.

The ruling states that once the copy is sold, the seller loses all rights of reselling it. As such they also have no legal authority over checking if the sold copy is legit or not. If anything intrusive DRM like Diablo 3 could soon be ruled illegal as it infringes on your customer rights.

Always interesting when people are actively against their own consumer rights. I love gaming but the gaming industry isn't special. I shouldn't have to give up my consumer rights and let companies screw me over for the sake of seeing the industry thrive. If that's what it takes for the the gaming industry to continue then it definitely needs to go through another crash and get a reboot with a sustainable business model.

It's really baffling, and I only ever really saw this behaviour after joining GAF. Sure it's not exclusive to GAF, but it was the first time I encountered this argument at all.

I don't agree about the notion that an industry crash is needed, but I do believe that now is the chance for a disruptive new concept to really evolve the business as we know it, to benefit consumers and to create a healthy market.
 
The book industry is much older than ebooks, so what's the point of that question?
Paper books have pretty obvious degradation after a single use. I can't even conceive of the VG industry operating like the book industry, as the numbers would have caused an industry collapse/stall.
 

pa22word

Member
The ruling states that once the copy is sold, the seller loses all rights of reselling it. As such they also have no legal authority over checking if the sold copy is legit or not. If anything intrusive DRM like Diablo 3 could soon be ruled illegal as it infringes on your customer rights.

.

That is a complete non-sequitur that operates purely on conjecture.
 

2MF

Member
I don't think it's even relevant to compare it non-digitally distributed software and objects. Sure, maybe used markets have been just fine in the past, games included, but the transaction in that case is rather transparent, often hard to find, and hard to exploit in large scale. If you do it all online and even do it with the help of the original distributor (ie like people say Valve could build the backend for it) without enforcing any amount of $ to go to the software maker then pretty much every buyer who doesn't buy the game on week or month one could just as easily buy it used with no downsides whatsoever, unlike physical goods which are worn when used and have to be traded hand in hand, or with a more complex and time consuming procedure than a few mouse clicks.

I agree, digital software is different from retail software. The biggest difference is that with digital software, the publishers can receive a much higher percentage of the consumer's money, AFAIK Steam's cut from digital sales is much lower than retailers' cuts from physical sales.

So the digital world already gives some advantage to publishers in the first place, what's the problem if that's countered by some downsides?

Bottom line here is, the games industry should make products that are worth the price they sell for... Just like any other industry in this world. Why should the games industry be special?
 

Burekma

Member
Which is why I responded with just as extreme hyperbole. But he didn't bite. ;)

Laws like this help consumers. That's a good thing for consumers. It's on companies to find a way to make it work and I have all faith that the video game industry will find all kinds of new and interesting ways to swindle us out of our money. There's really nothing to worry about.
There's plenty to worry about, though. One of those "ways to swindle us out of our money" is a hastened transition to F2P. The industry won't adapt in a way that benefits you, I can guarantee you that. Laws like these can easily backfire for consumers and make business models which are unaffected by it even more attractive to publishers than they already are.

Plenty of others have been mentioned as well, like transitioning to a streaming service or getting a time limit on your purchase to make it a "rent". Making consumers spend less money for the same amount of gaming is the last thing this law will bring.
 

2MF

Member
Paper books have pretty obvious degradation after a single use. I can't even conceive of the VG industry operating like the book industry, as the numbers would have caused an industry collapse/stall.

The fact that paper books degrade diminishes their value in people's minds, which should also decrease their prices. The fact that digital copies don't degrade should increase the value of the product, which is good for the publishers.

It cuts both ways...
 
Always interesting when people are actively against their own consumer rights. I love gaming but the gaming industry isn't special. I shouldn't have to give up my consumer rights and let companies screw me over for the sake of seeing the industry thrive. If that's what it takes for the the gaming industry to continue then it definitely needs to go through another crash and get a reboot with a sustainable business model.
The model will be one where you rent time to play a game via a streaming service.
The ruling states that once the copy is sold, the seller loses all rights of reselling it. As such they also have no legal authority over checking if the sold copy is legit or not. If anything intrusive DRM like Diablo 3 could soon be ruled illegal as it infringes on your customer rights.
So publishers don't have the right to ensure authenticity of a product before allowing it to connect to their servers?
I don't agree about the notion that an industry crash is needed, but I do believe that now is the chance for a disruptive new concept to really evolve the business as we know it, to benefit consumers and to create a healthy market.
Again, you'll rent time. It's not that I like not being able to sell my Steam collection, but I prefer that to the likely alternatives which I consider much worse. Saying "well disruption" doesn't actually mean that it's possible to do so without destroying everything, or lowering quality across the board.
 

pvpness

Member
There's plenty to worry about, though. One of those "ways to swindle us out of our money" is a hastened transition to F2P. The industry won't adapt in a way that benefits you, I can guarantee you that. Laws like these can easily backfire for consumers and make business models which are unaffected by it even more attractive to publishers than they already are.

Plenty of others have been mentioned as well, like transitioning to a streaming service or getting a time limit on your purchase to make it a "rent". Making consumers spend less money for the same amount of gaming is the last thing this law will bring.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that I care what the industry does. I'm a consumer. If the industry wants to get so greedy and sinister that it actually turns me off from buying games, then so be it. I'll only take so much, as with many other people. Either companies will put up a product that consumers want and find value in, or they will fail. Enthusiasts can't hold up a market all by themselves, not one of this size anyway.

The general problem I have with this kind of "worry" is that you're assuming that all companies will band together to collectively screw everyone. Historically, there's always at least one company, or group of companies that decide to make it a better experience for consumers and 9/10 times those companies flourish because they're immediately attractive.
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
If this is true then at the minimum I expect Steam can't ban people for selling accounts.

I think they still could. But you should be allowed to sell all your software and keep your account.
 
That is a complete non-sequitur that operates purely on conjecture.

Same as your assumption. Of course I fully expect publishers to find new exciting ways to fuck over consumers and deny them their rights, but if they adhere to the ruling, they can't interfere with how I resell the working copy of a game.

They can however start offering games as a rental or subscription service at which point new providers will be able to offer consumers better offerings.

I'd say let consumers decide if they want to get fucked over by an industry who believes itself to operate in a seperate dimension, unbound by common consumer rights.

I won't support a single allways on game ever. I even avoid online pass games if possible.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that I care what the industry does. I'm a consumer. If the industry wants to get so greedy and sinister that it actually turns me off from buying games, then so be it. I'll only take so much, as with many other people. Either companies will put up a product that consumers want and find value in, or they will fail. Enthusiasts can't hold up a market all by themselves, not one of this size anyway.

The general problem I have with this kind of "worry" is that you're assuming that all companies will band together to collectively screw everyone. Historically, there's always at least one company, or group of companies that decide to make it a better experience for consumers and 9/10 times those companies flourish because they're immediately attractive.

Thanks for expressing my views in a competent english language.
 

Ranger X

Member
I don't see how people see this as good news, unless you really hate the gaming industry and want to see them all put out of business

This is only making the resale legal and nothing else.
It does not ask digital sellers to make a system where you can resell the game.
It does not mean that original content owner can't get a cut on the resell either if it was possible to actually do it.

If publishers and content holders aren't stupid, they will make so they get a cut on resales of their digital products. Its easier to do so on the net than in the physical retail market (althought I always thought it wasn't really hard to do on the physical market, its just that they are lazy and dumb)
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
is there such a thing as a "used" downloaded program? there is no degrading of the code after being utilized by the consumer. it is the same exact quality that has been provided before.
 
The fact that paper books degrade diminishes their value in people's minds, which should also decrease their prices. The fact that digital copies don't degrade should increase the value of the product, which is good for the publishers.

It cuts both ways...

So you're argument is that this will be good for publishers because they'll be able to raise prices through the roof?
 

Orayn

Member
A thought: Publishers could, on a voluntary basis, allow their games to be "resold" for credit that's good toward other games that they publish digitally. This would probably be a relatively safe way to ease into this practice.
 
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