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[Lost Fragment]

Tekken's big problem from a popularity standpoint (at least with stream monsters) is just that it's really boring to watch if you don't already play it. It's not a spectator friendly game.

Marvel has a different problem though. Marvel's problem is that if you don't already know how to play it, it's really hard to tell wtf is going on. If you already understand what's going on though, it's a very spectator friendly game.

 

[enzo_gt]

So what you're saying is we need to keep this thread into Marvel Weekly, like it was before? While some guys here thrash other games not named Marvel when that game was brought up? Geez..

Uh, did you quote the wrong post or something?

 

[Zissou]

Shonen Jump vs Capcom 3v3 fighter

Jacknicholsonod.gif

Jojo was originally publised in shonen jump. Can you imagine a team-based fighter where the characters also had stands?

Spoiler

headexplosion.gif

 

[Karsticles]

But Tekken IS fun...

Not for me. I'm doing my best to be nice here, but you're making it difficult.

But unlike UMVC3, Tekken actually takes some skills to win. Yes I said it...

Especially when you display this kind of mental shortcoming. This isn't even worth responding to, it's just too stupid to pretend it needs to be addressed.

Tekken's big problem from a popularity standpoint (at least with stream monsters) is just that it's really boring to watch if you don't already play it. It's not a spectator friendly game.

Marvel has a different problem though. Marvel's problem is that if you don't already know how to play it, it's really hard to tell wtf is going on. If you already understand what's going on though, it's a very spectator friendly game.

I know it's a different game, but my wife watched all of the MvC2 Neo vs. Clockw0rk MM, with no MvC2 experience at all, and was hype as hell the entire time.

 

[soakrates]

Tekken's big problem from a popularity standpoint (at least with stream monsters) is just that it's really boring to watch if you don't already play it. It's not a spectator friendly game.

Marvel has a different problem though. Marvel's problem is that if you don't already know how to play it, it's really hard to tell wtf is going on. If you already understand what's going on though, it's a very spectator friendly game.

The reason Marvel is so much more popular with spectators is that you don't really need to know what's going on to be entertained by it. There's no way in hell that every single one of the 10k+ people watching Marvel during a major really knows what is happening.

 

[toddhunter]

Especially when you display this kind of mental shortcoming. This isn't even worth responding to, it's just too stupid to pretend it needs to be addressed.

Mate cut out the stupid/illiterate attacks. This is videogames, everything that gets posted is pretty stupid.

The reason Marvel is so much more popular with spectators is that you don't really need to know what's going on to be entertained by it. There's no way in hell that every single one of the 10k+ people watching Marvel during a major really knows what is happening.

It also moves fast. Even games like P4A? If you do not like the match up or play styles, it is at least over quickly. You can be stuck with tekken or kof for 20-30 minutes. Good if you are into it, but if not you are tuning out.

 

[Stabby McSter]

Mate cut out the stupid/illiterate attacks. This is videogames, everything that gets posted is pretty stupid.

yo man esports is serious business

 

[Zissou]

Mate cut out the stupid/illiterate attacks. This is videogames, everything that gets posted is pretty stupid.

Look at the stupid shit he's responding to. Honestly, it's a more than reasonable response. Dahbomb, having a lot of experience with both games writes an extremely fair and well-reasoned post that praises both games respective strengths, and then this dude responds with 'Hurr, at least tekken takes skillz to play!!1!'

 

[Parallax Scroll]

marvel is dumb, it doesn't even have fatalities

 

[DEATH™]

Especially when you display this kind of mental shortcoming. This isn't even worth responding to, it's just too stupid to pretend it needs to be addressed.

I said the reasons why Tekken takes skill... What's wrong with that? This "skill" problem in Marvel is something players want to get rid of, but learned how to deal with it. But still, a higher execution requirement will be good, it's like it's even feels better to be good at AE than Marvel at this point.

@enzo I might... it's hard to know sarcasm on the internet...

 

[Dahbomb]

But unlike UMVC3, Tekken actually takes some skills to win. Yes I said it...

Ok buddy if you say so. I guess players like ChrisG, FChamp, PRRog, Justin, Yipes etc are all scrubs because they win at a game that requires no skill to win.

Tekken doesn't have a comeback mechanic, even netsu rage takes skill to take advantage of and can be removed by the opponent and take advantage of especially when tagging.

I played Tekken 6 and the Rage mechanic definitely qualifies as a "comeback mechanic". The nature of the two games is very different in that it is WAY WAY harder to comeback against a stacked 3 man team with assists with one non-assisted character. In Tekken there is no block damage or unavoidable situation, any type of low health power up is unnecessary... comebacks are easy to make in Tekken even without a mechanic in place (you get one hit into 50% damage into oki set up and if they guess wrong you most likely made a "comeback").

While the current X factor is over the top in its values and benefits, the idea is right in that a solo character needs some additional benefit to overcome 3 characters 2 assist set up. Without X factor, Marvel becomes a game of "first to touch wins" because if you get the first hit you will probably kill the character (removing one assist) and mix up the incoming character. Things go downhill EXTREMELY fast in Marvel unlike any other game, X factor is supposed to mitigate that.

Tekken actually requires execution skills. BDC, JF moves, EWGFs, and stuff dwarfs stuff that many people say "hard" in Marvel 3. Wins in Tekken are earned.

I know exactly the type of execution that Tekken requires but a lot of those moves most characters in the game don't even have. EWGFs are restricted to the Mishimas and characters have very few JFs. The execution requirement of Tekken is not that high, it pales in comparison to something like GG. Now you pick up C Viper in Marvel and start doing EX Seismo Focus attack jump cancel into EX Seismo while holding down a button for lasers and tell me if that is easy to do. I can do EWGFs and a quite a few JF moves in Tekken but I can't do that Viper stuff in Marvel.

One char in Tekken has more moves than even Dante, it's not even funny, the game's control and freedom is outmatched...

A lot of moves in Tekken are vanilla and generally underpowered so they are rarely used in top level play. This is really more of a 3D vs 2D thing... you can't say that DOA has more depth, control and freedom than SF4 because it has more moves. Quality > Quantity. Plus when it comes to Marvel it's not just one character you are playing, you are playing 3 and playing them as a unit, combining their tools together for more tools is where the "control and freedom" of the game lies in.

 

[Kikujiro]

Mate cut out the stupid/illiterate attacks. This is videogames, everything that gets posted is pretty stupid.

In this case he's right, saying Marvel doesn't take skills is stupid. Tekken's rage is a comeback mechanic and a powerful one since you can easily kill your opponent with one combo.

 

[Lost Fragment]

Ok buddy if you say so. I guess players like ChrisG, FChamp, PRRog, Justin, Yipes etc are all scrubs because they win at a game that requires no skill to win.

Yeah that comment doesn't make sense to me.

Marvel 3 is a really fuckin dumb game. I think this opinion is nearly universal in one form or another. But that's what makes being reasonably consistent at a top level so impressive. If a small group of players can walk into the pen and stay on that crazy ass bull, then goddamn, that's impressive. It's really hard to say that they're not consistently at the top because they're not skilled.

 

[toddhunter]

In this case he's right, saying Marvel doesn't take skills is stupid. Tekken's rage is a comeback mechanic and a powerful one since you can easily kill your opponent with one combo.

That is fine, but it is still an opinion. 99% of people might think it is a stupid opinion, but good luck to him if he believes it. If something doesn't warrant a response as suggested? Well don't respond to it.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

some marvel streams

canada http://www.twitch.tv/iijokerii

st louis http://www.twitch.tv/stlbarwarz

 

[Zissou]

Saying marvel doesn't take skill is an opinion like saying the earth is 6000 years old is an opinion.

Yeah that comment doesn't make sense to me.

Marvel 3 is a really fuckin dumb game. I think this opinion is nearly universal in one form or another. But that's what makes being reasonably consistent at a top level so impressive. If a small group of players can walk into the pen and stay on that crazy ass bull, then goddamn, that's impressive. It's really hard to say that they're not consistently at the top because they're not skilled.

Yeah- super high level play where both players are in complete control is amazing. The recent Moons vs Rayray FT5 was an excellent example of this.

 

[TheChits]

Shaowebb made these in Scribblenauts, and I think they're too badass not to share:

Scribblenauts <3

 

[Horseress]

Ok, so the guy who came to complain that people talk shit about Tekken is talking shit about Marvel?! NOOO DUDE, not cool. Let's be civilized here.
I personally love both games, and I gotta say, Marvel looks dumb because X-Factor gives you SO MUCH power, but it CAN be dumb at casual level, but high level Marvel is amazingly smart, really great decisions, crazy reads, crazy mix-ups, X-Factor used for safety, it's not dumb at all!
And high level Tekken is also smart as fuck, but I gotta say, low level Tekken is MORE dumb than Marvel, who never mashed the fuck out of their controller, spamming attacks and getting wins out of that? In low level play it is possible!

All I want to say is that both games are awesome, both DEMAND good execution to win high level matches, but both can be dumb. So, let's just play our games and shut up ok?

 

[Infinite]

How many fighting games do not take "skill" to play? What does "take skill" even mean?

 

[Ragingnight]

Marvel is scrubby. ABCS(hold) BBCS. Bam I just did a bnb

Tekken is scrubby too. Pick one of those kicking characters and just roll your face on the kick buttons and move the stick around.

UFC is a real fighting game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI28_KLMf2Q Look at dem graphics.

 

[Zissou]

How many fighting games do not take "skill" to play? What does "take skill" even mean?

I think we are all eagerly awaiting a response to this.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Nope! If you don't like ttt2 you either don't like fighting games or are not good at it!

 

[Nyoro SF]

How many fighting games do not take "skill" to play? What does "take skill" even mean?

Um... uh...

 

[Doomshine]

Nope! If you don't like ttt2 you either don't like fighting games or are not good at it!

...and you don't prefer something different, you just have bad taste!

 

[Horseress]

How many fighting games do not take "skill" to play? What does "take skill" even mean?

Hmmm...DOA?

Spoiler

#Kappa

 

[DEATH™]

@dahbomb I understand that, that's the appeal of Marvel, the fast decisions you need to do, why I also still own the game, but yet, when even the fun characters are almost deemed worthless for a Dante/Vergil/Whoever team speaks on how screwed the balance in this game. It's not even worth it to play viper when you can't exceed or even keep up with dante's potential. (The same problem plagued Tekken 6 with Bob/Lars dominating Mishimas, which is just not right in the same reasons, which is fixed in TTT2). The whole balanced design is flawed, and I'm surprised people still play this game by large. I'm starting to wonder if CVS2 came out on this era...

I'm not only comparing marvel to tekken, but to other fighting games in general. Admittedly, you guys admit this problem, and wished it to be fixed, yet when there's other games that offers way better, most people ignore it still cause it's not capcom. Please at least PUT SOME REASONABLE TIME on the other games. Even KOF with a very good system is being put down...

How many fighting games do not take "skill" to play? What does "take skill" even mean?

Execution barrier...

 

["God's Beard!"]

It's not even worth it to play viper when you can't exceed or even keep up with dante's potential.

waaaaaait a minute

 

[Ragingnight]

Fighting games that take no skill? I think it would be easier to see what game takes the least skill since all competitive games tend to have some skill component to win.

At low level I think Tekken, DOA, and the VS series are the easiest game. Obviously very different at higher levels of play.

 

[Slamtastic]

Execution barrier...

Yeah, a lot of fighting game player do have this misguided idea that there's a direct correlation between execution requirements and depth or skill to play, forgetting that you're supposed to be playing against your opponent, not the game system.

 

[atomic moth]

Cable/Strange/Omega Tom Hanks is OP. Too OP. marvel therefore sucks

 

[Infinite]

Execution barrier...

That doesn't mean shit and is an awful way to determine skill in a 1V1 competitive game. If you're attempting to argue that Marvel has a low execution barrier than you only played the game at a surface level and thus what you have to say about can be ignored.

 

[DEATH™]

waaaaaait a minute

Educate me now... on the marvel |ot| of course...

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

So marlinpie is practicing marvel again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NIjoqjlrJ8

 

[Professor Beef]

Well it was a nice thread we had while it lasted.

 

[Zissou]

Educate me now... on the marvel |ot| of course...

Viper played by somebody with perfect execution is a better and more terrifying character than Dante could ever hope to be. If you insist on thinking skill=execution, then Viper is also ironically an example of ridiculous execution requirements in marvel, so you're digging yourself into a deeper hole.

 

[enzo_gt]

How many fighting games do not take "skill" to play? What does "take skill" even mean?

This is why I said all these arguments are so piss poor. Next thing you know people will be calling it random.

The only real legit argument against Marvel being a good game is the volatility of matches as the momentum can shift so drastically and players have to be on top of their game 100% of the time to be dominant. People saying it's hard to be consistent at the game have no merit here when everyone can see who the consistent players are. You could even say it takes more skill than other fighting games because of how pitch perfect you have to be to be consistently good. Or patience. Or tolerance. Or masochism. Skill is a bad word for it, and so are these others, but the trait is still admiral IMO. That's what makes Marvel so interesting to watch, it's the ultimate decision-making simulator. The game mechanics force people to be on top of the ball at all times and that's what makes for exciting matches even in mid-level play. You have to make decisions at an absolutely stupid fast rate. You can also argue this as the player constantly fighting the mechanics of the game at all times. Also, TACs.

Also, I can only assume uncreative people dislike the game too. People who want to learn matchups with little variation, they want a controlled sandbox where matchup design dictates the scenario rather than the community. They don't want to follow a rapidly evolving metagame, they don't want a game where not only do you have to fight the player and the character, but you have to fight the team and the tech along with it. Ain't nothing wrong with that, but that's down to preference. Put your faith in devs vs. faith in yourself and the people to evolve the game.

 

[Grecco]

So marlinpie is practicing marvel again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NIjoqjlrJ8

FINALLY Guess Boss Koogy put the foot down. RIP GG Marlin

 

[sephi22]

I think Bum's big black pipe can defeat Chris G's small missile..

This post deserves more love

 

[Master Milk]

Yeah, a lot of fighting game player do have this misguided idea that there's a direct correlation between execution requirements and depth or skill to play, forgetting that you're supposed to be playing against your opponent, not the game system.

Execution isn't a fight against the game system, it's a fight against yourself.

And fighting the game system is a huge draw to a lot of people. Optimizing combos, unoptimizng combos so they're as flashy and impractical as possible, finding glitches and infinites, etc.

 

[Kellen]

So marlinpie is practicing marvel again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NIjoqjlrJ8

His results at Curleh must've lit a fire under him to get back on the grind.

 

[Zissou]

His results at Curleh must've lit a fire under him to get back on the grind.

He really needs a better answer to morridoom. More than anything, he needs to change his playstyle more than his characters against that team.

 

[Infinite]

He really needs a better answer to morridoom. More than anything, he needs to change his playstyle more than his characters against that team.

I think he needs to stop dropping his combos and that is rectified by practicing the game more often. Kyohei's problem before was the thirst or lack of it but now he's motivated.

Execution isn't a fight against the game system, it's a fight against yourself.

And fighting the game system is a huge draw to a lot of people. Optimizing combos, unoptimizng combos so they're as flashy and impractical as possible, finding glitches and infinites, etc.

Sure but at the end of the day out footsie-ing someone in SF or out maneuvering them in Marvel is what actual matters and grants you your wins

 

[QisTopTier]

But unlike UMVC3, Tekken actually takes some skills to win. Yes I said it...
Tekken doesn't have a comeback mechanic, even netsu rage takes skill to take advantage of and can be removed by the opponent and take advantage of especially when tagging.
Tekken actually requires execution skills. BDC, JF moves, EWGFs, and stuff dwarfs stuff that many people say "hard" in Marvel 3. Wins in Tekken are earned.
One char in Tekken has more moves than even Dante, it's not even funny, the game's control and freedom is outmatched...
.

No go win some tournaments and get back to us. Thanks.

High level marvel is not easy.

 

[Zissou]

I think he needs to stop dropping his combos and that is rectified by practicing the game more often. Kyohei's problem before was the thirst or lack of it but now he's motivated.

This too. Any time I'd see him land a hit and fail to kill a character (especially Morrigan!), I'd face palm. He plays motherfucking C.Viper- she's supposed to ToD if she touches you.

 

[Professor Beef]

No go win some tournaments and get back to us. Thanks.

Don't forget to use MorriDoom, since any scrub can win with that team.

 

[Master Milk]

Sure but at the end of the day out footsie-ing someone in SF or out maneuvering them in Marvel is what actual matters and grants you your wins

The only thing that matters is that you're enjoying yourself playing the game.

Not everyone plays fighting games to be competitive. If you do, that's fine, but it needs to be acknowledged that there are other ways to enjoy the game.

 

[scytheavatar]

I think he needs to stop dropping his combos and that is rectified by practicing the game more often. Kyohei's problem before was the thirst or lack of it but now he's motivated.



Sure but at the end of the day out footsie-ing someone in SF or out maneuvering them in Marvel is what actual matters and grants you your wins

His problem is that he has been figured out by many and yet he's refusing to adapt or switch his tactics. It's one thing to lose to LOL Morridoom and be salty but there's not much reason why he should be 3-0'd and bodied for free by RayRay. No amount of pretty Doom combos is going to improve him if he doesn't learn to play differently.

 

[QisTopTier]

Don't forget to use MorriDoom, since any scrub can win with that team.

Noobs these days sure are good at consistent rapid motion inputs, I'm impressed!

 

[Infinite]

The only thing that matters is that you're enjoying yourself playing the game.

Not everyone plays fighting games to be competitive. If you do, that's fine, but it needs to be acknowledged that there are other ways to enjoy the game.

I thought we were discussing what qualifies as skill or a good metric of determine skill in a fighting game.

If I don't have fun playing any game I won't ever consider playing it competitively.

His problem is that he has been figured out by many and yet he's refusing to adapt or switch his tactics. It's one thing to lose to LOL Morridoom and be salty but there's not much reason why he should be 3-0'd and bodied for free by RayRay. No amount of pretty Doom combos is going to improve him if he doesn't learn to play differently.

Well he got bodied by ray ray cause he was the better player that day. Marlinpie team has so much bullshit its not even fair but his characters are all inherently strong and his team composition is really good. None of his setups are really that gimmicky where "okay if I tech forward I beat this mixup every time" so its not so much of his trick becoming easier to see its that he as a player was.

 

[Karsticles]

Noobs these days sure are good at consistent rapid motion inputs, I'm impressed!

You just have to push the "Soul Fist" button more.

Also, RayRay just gave his top 5 Marvel players on the Joker stream, and I found one choice very surprising:

1.Justin 2.Chris Yipes Bum (tied) and 5.Champ