NCR Redslayer
NeoGAF's Vegeta
Dont worry guys, hes only talking about the mainline ff games.
On a median scale.
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Final Fantasy XV interview: Tabata talks delays, Versus, fan expectation and more
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vainglorious
Member
Omg FF8 released in 1999 and FF9 was released in 2000. FF9 was not a response to anything. It was in development alongside FF8's development.
FF8 was extremely successful when it released, people need to knock off this false narrative.
DrunkShogun
Member
Hope ffxv is successful for Tabata because he's been getting a lot of unjust criticism. Ffxv is trying something new from its predecessor and it should be applauded.
DoctorFish
Member
I'm honestly pretty annoyed that he (and some people in this thread) seem to think that people like turn-based purely because it's "nostalgic" and that action games are somehow an advancement of the RPG and not a different system entirely.
Not every new game needs to be turn-based, no, and I don't have a problem with XV not being turn-based. But to say that people who prefer that are just being nostalgic is very worrying and makes me think he doesn't understand what longtime fans of the series like about the series.
Not every new game needs to be turn-based, no, and I don't have a problem with XV not being turn-based. But to say that people who prefer that are just being nostalgic is very worrying and makes me think he doesn't understand what longtime fans of the series like about the series.
Gai Murakumo
Member
If I ever met Tabata in person I would thank him for the tough job he had to do taking over this project. I hope that after he is done with this game he can move on to something better and hopefully less stressful for him.
Vincent Grayson
Member
I'm hardly a purist when it comes to one or the other. As long as the game is fun and plays well, I'm in.
That said, I think it's telling that the turn-based/real-time thing seems perfectly split down the "realism" line.
Persona 5, DQXI, WoFF. All three have various iterations of turn-based combat, and all three are very much not realistic. Persona and DQ have their obvious anime look, and WoFF its own unique aesthetic.
I honestly don't think you could do a turn-based, realistic-looking RPG without it looking weird as hell. It sure wouldn't look right with FFXV, IMO, and I like what I've seen of FFVIIr's changed combat.
That said, I think it's telling that the turn-based/real-time thing seems perfectly split down the "realism" line.
Persona 5, DQXI, WoFF. All three have various iterations of turn-based combat, and all three are very much not realistic. Persona and DQ have their obvious anime look, and WoFF its own unique aesthetic.
I honestly don't think you could do a turn-based, realistic-looking RPG without it looking weird as hell. It sure wouldn't look right with FFXV, IMO, and I like what I've seen of FFVIIr's changed combat.
Name the stakes. Keep it realistic. I will take this bet.
The problem is basic evading feels crap. They couldn't even get it working on Microsoft's stage.
KillerMan91
Member
That really doesn't mean that much considering how reviewers have actually started to become stricter compared to last gen. You don't get automatic 8 nowadays because you ship AAA game and also 9s are not handed like candy.
There's some truth to it, though:
In regards to the versus purists, I think that it would have been better for XV to be completely it's own thing, and just let Versus be cancelled altogether at this point. It would have given XV better stance to stand on it's own without people constantly nagging on the changes it has made from Versus, and there would have been a sense of really new FF game coming, instead of relying on something that was revealed originally in 2006.
Definitely. I can't really fault people who have been looking forward to a game announced a decade ago being updset at changes.
Personally, after going through something like Brandon Sanderson taking over for the Wheel of Time, I'm more pleased that it'll be finished than at what could have been.
ãInaba Residentã
Banned
The question does not change
YankeeDonB
Member
Basic evading felt great in Duscae I thought, and the perfect guard and damage cancel even better.
APZonerunner
Member
FF9 was considered by Sakaguchi to be 'the end of an era' and the whole point of it was to pay tribute to the past before moving on to different things and a different tone. had TSW been a success (as its production ran parallel to much of FF9), FF9 likely would've marked even more of a sea change than it already did. FF10 was quite different, and 11, which was greenlit at the same time as 9, was obviously a huge departure.
FF9 actually began life as a side-story spin-off that was meant to be a nostalgia fest. Very early on in its life it morphed into a numbered game after Sakaguchi was impressed by the vision around it.
Whompa02
Member
I agree, but people saying it HAS TO BE turn based, are totally not respecting a creative trying to evolve it in a fresh path. The purists make it difficult to side with them because they're totally unreasonable in regards to just letting a developer touch, "their precious franchise."
FF has been chopped and skewed so many times in the past, but it has to remain turn based? Like...what? Just doesn't make sense.
The only things that really tie FF together, for me, is the interesting mixing of mythologies.
Does it? It took me like 5 minutes to "get it" and it was pretty simple after understanding the mechanic. Just takes a second to learn.
The Microsoft stage demo was a bad demo. I have no idea why they thought that would be a good showing.
I never had a single problem evading in either Duscae or Platinum. Every time I got hit it was my own fault for not breaking the attack stance on time.
vainglorious
Member
FF9 is an homage to the roots and history of Final Fantasy. It's not an apology letter because of FF7 or FF8. That's the distinction.
I think you are putting words in their mouth.
All he says is he doesn't think that the series should be pigeon holed to be one thing. If the development team wants to make the game a certain way they should get that freedom.
Have you ever played another action platformer before? Devil May Cry? Kingdom Hearts?
I mean, even in the final version, it's being criticized by the giant "PRESS [X]" prompts, essentially turning the game into a QTE fest, instead of using the basic industry standard of developing "tells" in animation that the player can pick up on and organically learn to dodge/guard.
I don't see how, objectively, what you experienced in Duscae could ever be considered "great" - it was a mess.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I don't think dividing the possibility of battle system between "RPG" and "action" is correct analysis.
First, FFXV is not an action game, aside from the fact that you control the character around the field. It's very much an RPG that plays out fast-paced in real time. That makes it more of an RPG than something like Skyrim (which is also still an RPG). With the speed at which you enter commands, and the auto-battle nature of it, you might get the mistaken impression that it's "action", but the emphasis is on strategy of commands, not technical dexterity on the control pad.
Second, I think FF has always evolved the RPG genre and I do not see XV as any kind of hard break from that tradition. Going back to the introduction of the ATB bars in FFIV, that too was a step away from actually being "turn based" into more of a "real-time" battle scenario. XV just seems like a similar transition towards "real-time" begun in IV, the only difference being a matter of degree.
I do think this series has continually innovated new RPG configurations, and has never been a tradition-beholden series unless explicitly stated (IX, 4 Heroes of Light, etc). Tabata is right.
First, FFXV is not an action game, aside from the fact that you control the character around the field. It's very much an RPG that plays out fast-paced in real time. That makes it more of an RPG than something like Skyrim (which is also still an RPG). With the speed at which you enter commands, and the auto-battle nature of it, you might get the mistaken impression that it's "action", but the emphasis is on strategy of commands, not technical dexterity on the control pad.
Second, I think FF has always evolved the RPG genre and I do not see XV as any kind of hard break from that tradition. Going back to the introduction of the ATB bars in FFIV, that too was a step away from actually being "turn based" into more of a "real-time" battle scenario. XV just seems like a similar transition towards "real-time" begun in IV, the only difference being a matter of degree.
I do think this series has continually innovated new RPG configurations, and has never been a tradition-beholden series unless explicitly stated (IX, 4 Heroes of Light, etc). Tabata is right.
This is why I think somewhere in the back of somebody's mind, they're doing the same treatment with FFXVI. I'd be willing to bet that one will be a fantasy based on fantasy, if not just for the juxtaposition.
Kingdom Hearts 2 constantly has Reaction Commands which are glowing triangle symbols used for contextual counters and such so...
You're right about character action games.
Vincent Grayson
Member
If they really wanted to make something like FF9 though, it'd be an homage to say, 6-12 or something, like IX was a love letter to fans of 1-5.
Both Tabata and commentators are using time as a scapegoat just to elevate action-based systems and deprecate others. It isn't a rational argument, and I think Tabata must be simply conducting PR.
Tabata knows an action-based system is easier to sell, thanks to its highly visual nature and ease of access for players who might be bored by anything else. To say that would be suicidal, however.
Maintenance
Member
First post backfire, goddamn. I don't see real-time/action-based as an evolution of turn-based, they are different things.
Anyway, I don't trust Tabata with a mainline Final Fantasy, so meh.
Oh I'm pretty sure that's gonna happen.
Anyway, I don't trust Tabata with a mainline Final Fantasy, so meh.
Oh I'm pretty sure that's gonna happen.
The prompts are just for the times you can parry and counter with exclusive animations, not for every single attack you can dodge.
Is he, though? At least Platinum certainly seems to be fond of contextual attacks with a button prompt showing you what to do every time you're in this situation, and in many cases followed by some QTE, usually mashing the button.
Whompa02
Member
I think Tabata is just saying that making a turn-based game just because that's how it's been is not how a game should be made.
People are using his comment to justify hating on turn-based battle systems without adding the context of the question to the quote.
Gai Murakumo
Member
Much as I hope it won't, there is a strong likelihood it will unfortunately.
YankeeDonB
Member
Sure, Bayonetta and some DMC.
I'm not saying it feels character action tight. I'm saying the evades felt good to execute in Duscae once you got the timing down. Warp evading into a counter was sweet, and the damage recovery move was endlessly satisfying.
No, I don't think cued button promps feel great, but that's not what I'm talking about. In Duscae the prompts are for specific attacks with specially animated counters, but the regular attacks (which are the majority) can all be evaded and countered or canceled without any QTEs. It's in no way a QTE fest.
Also, ffs, there are no "objective" interpersonal criteria for what an individual finds to feel great or not. People on Gaf are so obsessed with objective criteria and quantitative indices. Those have only a weak relationship with aesthetic experience.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
These bets never work out, lol.
I could see it happening, even if XV is a better game. XIII was riding high on on FF prestige and reviewers were timid to eviserate it. This was a time when Jim Sterling's rare 4/10 was widely considered to be a trolling clickbait review, when that score might not be far off to how he game is perceived today.
With XV, the gloves are off, pessimism around the FF brand is in the air... Reviewers will feel very free to shit on the game if it displays glaring flaws.
Bravely Default felt more like Final Fantasy than FFXIII. LOST ODYSSEY felt more like Final Fantasy than FFXIII.
I'm all for forging your own path, but when you're THAT different and you disregard so much of what makes Final Fantasy work, just call it a brand new IP. Call it "Lightning and her Merry Band of Idiots" or "Toriyama's Waifu Simulator 3000" or something.
... Or maybe I'm just bitter that FFXIII felt it was too good for the traditional FF victory fanfare after regular battles, which even I used for my own wedding.
vainglorious
Member
13's scores were somewhat insulated by the series pedigree. 15 won't be, the veneer has worn off.
I get that feeling too.
That is one side of it. You could see it as also saying it shouldn't be turn-based because that is how it has been (i.e. because it is old).
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
When FFX came out they basically said that all FF traditions were potentially on the chopping block forever after. A new day for the series. I haven't held my breath for things like "keeping the same fanfare" since then.
You say cultists in such a horrible way, like it can't be anyone genuinely who doesn't like what 15 is doing in a vacuum for whatever reason based on changes within 15, it has to be a cult or cultists of Versus specifically because you've basically put it in your head that everyone who liked Versus's vision more is worse than scum.
I dislike that.
I also understand that there are idiots out there, and i genuinely feel bad for Tabata being the fall guy for those people who go beyond criticism or genuine concern for the state of the project and how its turned out. But there's no need for that in the opposite direction.
Sure, if you have a bias, you could say that.
Inspired by Tidus?
I remain optimistic
I hope it doesn't and I'm optimistic enough to think it won't deserve it but in this day and age...
That's awesome.
Tabata doesn't say anything like that here, though. He and the interviewer are saying the viewpoint that "FF should be turn-based because it has been in the past" is not a valid one. Maybe he's said action systems are an evolution from turn-based in other interviews I'm not aware of, though.
Anyway, it's interesting that skill tree differentation is one of the things they are balancing with the two extra months. His comment on one path being "actiony" and one "tactical" makes me think it might be about developing Noctis's twitch moveset vs. developing the whole party. I think a GAFer mentioned ability points are shared, so you can either make Noctis a powerhouse or evenly raise the usefulness of the group.
I don't recall Metal Gear Rising having a button prompt for Parry, though. I suppose the difference is just the frequency of contextual prompts.
If that is how you feel, but when you need to say something negative to a public audience, you say it in a positive way.
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