Support NeoGAF

[Tommy DJ]

Multiple Map Objectives I would like to see more of. Such as survive for a set number of turns or don't let thing fall, or protect thing. Instead of rout the enemy every chapter.

The problem with Fire Emblem map objectives is that they're still essentially rout maps. I cannot think of a single Fire Emblem defend map that you're better off defending rather than just routing or killing the boss.

Playing some of the games in the series again, there isn't anything inherently wrong with rout maps. Its just that the map and scenario has to be interesting rather than endless floods of units bum rushing you from forts.

 

[Space Medafighter X]

Edit: Phone mess up

 

[Newtype-001]

This is so weird, how did they go through the planning phase with this.

 

[xaszatm]

This is so weird, how did they go through the planning phase with this.

IS: What could we do that would get Neogaf up in a tizzy?

IS: Hey, Gamefreak, got any ideas?

Gamefreak: *grins*

And the rest is history.

 

[Toxi]

This is so weird, how did they go through the planning phase with this.

"What would the Bioware forums want?"

 

[rhandino]

"What would the Bioware forums want?"

#OOP

 

[kuroneko0509]

"What would the Bioware forums want?"

i don;t understand...somebody help me pls

 

[Nerokis]

I'm still unable to think coherently about this. So in a SRPG, there is a minigame that has you rub the characters' faces to bond with them. Why. What. How.

I get this is based on Pokemon amie, but Pokemon are animals. This is just really fucking creepy.

Why is it so creepy, exactly? Showing a FE character this kind of goofy affection isn't so different from doing so to a Pokemon. They're like digital toys, dolls, that people form varying connections with. In the same way you may sillily dote on your Piggy Bunny doll in real life, this amie thing allows you to dote on your favorite FE characters. It's just another way to create a connection between the player and the characters, albeit an especially dumb way.

Seriously, rubbing a person's face in real life just to see them blush or whatever would probably be creepy. Rubbing Overly Serious and Buff Knight Dude's face and enjoying his reaction in the context of this amie thing doesn't really strike me as creepy. Just a dumb, goofy thing.

 

[sensui-tomo]

i don;t understand...somebody help me pls

A little bit after ME2 came out, bioware's social site or whatever its called had some pretty weird threads that'd make the waifu material we've had with smt/persona and Fire emblem awakening look very tame in comparison... one discussion... something about Tali's sweat, and i wish i was joking.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Because when you hire Yuzuke Kozaki, you hire him to make sexually alluring characters. And I'm totally fine with that.

This has been covered. Kozaki's designs look great in modern settings and in a lot of other games. For medieval battle wear? It's laughable and clearly just cheap fan service.

Social Links are the first thing P3 and P4 detractors bring up in any discussion.

Social links are actually moderately well written, unlike many of the FE: A supports, and they don't involve any (optional) rubbing game. The day they do, I'm out of Persona. I've critiqued both SL and Supports often. I think they need to do better.

 

[Tommy DJ]

Then nerf javelins and hand axes or make them rare like spears instead of making them infinitely rebuyable. Done. I also question whether including bows in the weapon triangle is an overall buff or not. One of the small advantages of bow users was the consistent hit rate and damage. Now that they're weak to swords, it could be hit or miss, especially for archers that have limited functionality as is.

As for mounted units being OP, that's why they designed desert chapters and chapters full of ballistas. You can't have a team full of mounted units or your tactics or survival ranking will suffer. That's great map design. Of course, Fire Emblem no longer has rankings so whatever.

There's a problem with your proposals.

Nerfing javelins and hand axes, like in New Mystery, only works (and only worked) if the enemy units are sufficiently hard. The solution in New Mystery's hardest difficulties was to make enemy units so swole that enemy units start off with like ~30 HP minimum and silver weapons. Javelins and hand axes were bad because you were forced to do use your best weapons to do the killing during the player phase in order to survive the enemy phase.

This is also the solution to the age old "how do we make bows useful in Fire Emblem" problem. Its actually really easy: just make the player phase more important. FE12's bow users are some of your best units for this reason. It remains to be seen but enemy pair up in FE:IF may make the player phase a little more important if enemy units are sufficiently powerful.

Nerfing javelins and hand axes that way wouldn't work for the majority of people because the game would probably be too tough for them. Making availability low isn't a solution either because its still overpowered for the few users it has, rockets ranged users to the top of the totem tree as well as brings everything negative about it with it. FE:IF solution is perfectly elegant. The solution gives certain units 1-2 range utility but also limit their capability during the enemy phase. Its a perfect solution to a problem that will continue being a solution regardless of game difficulty and doesn't throw everything in the air with it.

The sword weakness for bows is presumably there because sword users have always been easy targets to bow users due to their inability to do anything during the opponent phase. With true hit as it is, the rates to hit should still be high yet sword users won't take as much damage due to having WTA. Whether or not it works is a different question, yes, but the justification is sound.

As for the desert map comment, I actually did a FE7 S-Rank HHM a while back so I know what you have to do to get a decent tactics rank. My whole A team were nothing but mounted units + Raven/Harken. Those games had the rescue function so movement penalties aren't worth jack all. FE7 also had the "do all the work during the enemy phase" problem the majority of Fire Emblems have so dropping units in the middle no nowhere was actually beneficial. As for ballista, I hope to see them back though you're sort of overstating their impact.

 

[Stilton Disco]

A little bit after ME2 came out, bioware's social site or whatever its called had some pretty weird threads that'd make the waifu material we've had with smt/persona and Fire emblem awakening look very tame in comparison... one discussion... something about Tali's sweat, and i wish i was joking.

It was all worked out by the communities molecular biologists and chemists down to the most likely molecular structures too! It was bloody awesome! And creepy!

Also Quarion breast milk, what Turians must taste like, the hallucinogenic chemicals in Drell skin, as well as the never ending arguements over how exactly you get Asari to Embrace Eternity.

It was such a wonderful time!

 

[Firemind]

There's a problem with your proposals.

Nerfing javelins and hand axes, like in New Mystery, only works (and only worked) if the enemy units are sufficiently hard. The solution in New Mystery's hardest difficulties was to make enemy units so swole that enemy units start off with like ~30 HP minimum and silver weapons. Javelins and hand axes were bad because you were forced to do use your best weapons to do the killing during the player phase in order to survive the enemy phase.

This is also the solution to the age old "how do we make bows useful in Fire Emblem" problem. Its actually really easy: just make the player phase important. FE12's bow users are some of your best units for this reason. It remains to be seen but enemy pair up in FE:IF may make the player phase a little more important if enemy units are sufficiently powerful.

So your proposal is to make enemies tougher, which is exactly what I proposed?

You're also overstating the OPness of javelins and hand axes. In FE7 and onwards, they got a buff, but in FE6, javelins and hand axes are wildly inaccurate when considering their damage output. Speed (or lowest turn) runners have to abuse the RNG to make them work consistently.

 

[Jarmel]

This has been covered. Kozaki's designs look great in modern settings and in a lot of other games. For medieval battle wear? It's laughable and clearly just cheap fan service.

He's not trying to make realistic battle wear.

 

[foxuzamaki]

Oh, of course. OF COURSE.

I finally get to watch this video, I see the flipping amazing base building, complete with customization features, specialty purchases, unit discourse/training, and enemy unit invasion (complete with building destruction!) and several new characters with varying degrees of awesome to mediocre to hilariously over the top designs, and moral police are "completely outraged" and "turned off to the franchise" by 30 seconds of completely frivolous (if tacky) Pokemon-style gender neutral face touching that is apparently completely optional?

I don't know if it's a complete lack of humor for optional content that has (and will continue to) keep the franchise around, or some sense of prudish puritan values looking for things that literally aren't there, but come on. Overreacting maybe just a little? No one is telling you what to like/not like, but seriously...why is this such a big deal? I thought they announced some terrible implementation of the two game system for EU/US rather than this. Was worried for nothing...

You would have thought they did something much worse, it's not even situated to women only, it'd for both male and female.

 

[Dice//]

The same happened with the SMT x FE reveal trailer. "Let's talk about the few seconds of fanservice instead of the rest of the video" It's getting really annoying every time this happens, but it's inevitable.

The base building is really exciting, I'l probably end up spending a lot of time there. I wish you could actually walk around in third person though. (as far as I know you can't right?--you can only look around and not move)

I'd like the remind the board that the thing we're complaining about was just rubbing someone's face until we get a reaction. Said thing consisted maybe...30 seconds of a 9-minute video? Like...did the rest of the video completely get blocked out of everyone's mind? Can we talk about the shops, the weapons, the tiny dragon, ANYTHING else?

Y'know, because pandering, overt, and often one-sided sexualization in games hasn't been a problem.

If you don't care then don't bring it up; but after tirelessly seeing ridiculous design after ridiculous design ("for fanservice!") it gets a bit eye-rolling.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Y'know, because pandering, overt, and often one-sided sexualization in games hasn't been a problem.

There's nothing one-sided about the way it's done in Fire Emblem.

This has been covered. Kozaki's designs look great in modern settings and in a lot of other games. For medieval battle wear? It's laughable and clearly just cheap fan service.

Tharja is just as laughably fan service as some of his No More Heroes designs, though I will agree they look more "believable" in modern settings.

 

[Dice//]

There's nothing one-sided about the way it's done in Fire Emblem, done.

The girls outfits > guys outfits.

I'm sure they showed great restraint showing two guys getting their faces touched and not showing the girl's hot spring. I'm talking about outfits... The face-rubbing is...just weird (fortunately gender neutral, but still bizarre).

But y'know, boob straps gotta hold them boobies in place

 

[Maintenance]

"What would the Bioware forums want?"

Oh you.

 

[Tommy DJ]

So your proposal is to make enemies tougher, which is exactly what I proposed?

You're also overstating the OPness of javelins and hand axes. In FE7 and onwards, they got a buff, but in FE6, javelins and hand axes are wildly inaccurate when considering their damage output. Speed (or lowest turn) runners have to abuse the RNG to make them work
consistently.

If you read the entire post rather than distilling it to one sentence, the problem is that it only works in the hardest difficulties. Javelins are only really worthless in FE6 HM and let's be honest, how many people here are up to complete it? Let's not bring up Axes because Axes are mostly worthless in that game with the combination of being too fucking heavy, sub-50 hit rates, and being too fucking heavy,

No, the easiest solution is to limit it to one attack per player/enemy phase. This brings a workable solution that is not tied to difficulty.

 

[xaszatm]

Y'know, because pandering, overt, and often one-sided sexualization in games hasn't been a problem.

If you don't care then don't bring it up; but after tirelessly seeing ridiculous design after ridiculous design ("for fanservice!") it gets a bit eye-rolling.

Except this thread hasn't been talking about the extremely sexualized outfits (which I have earlier expressed my dislike on, to the point where I'm calling the characters: black cleavage, white bra, ninja bra, and abs), we're talking about a stylus rubbing mechanic that's honestly harmless and even better since at least in that its equal-opportunity fanservice.

 

[Dice//]

Except this thread hasn't been talking about the extremely sexualized outfits (which I have earlier expressed my dislike on, to the point where I'm calling the characters: black cleavage, white bra, ninja bra, and abs), we're talking about a stylus rubbing mechanic that's honestly harmless and even better since at least in that its equal-opportunity fanservice.

Yeah I edited'd'd.

 

[Loptous]

Kozaki can also make great traditional designs
Google Bakumatsu Kikansetsu Irohanihoheto for reference.

People should also understand that a character artist is not in charge of the art direction. That's the role of the art director.
If IS weren't fine with the designs, then they would have asked him to redraw them.
The art direction of the series changed because of the new art director in Awakening. Not because of Kozaki.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Except this thread hasn't been talking about the extremely sexualized outfits (which I have earlier expressed my dislike on, to the point where I'm calling the characters: black cleavage, white bra, ninja bra, and abs), we're talking about a stylus rubbing mechanic that's honestly harmless and even better since at least in that its equal-opportunity fanservice.

You should probably read through the thread again.

 

[Puruzi]

The girls outfits > guys outfits.

I'm sure they showed great restraint showing two guys getting their faces touched and not showing the girl's hot spring. I'm talking about outfits... The face-rubbing is...just weird (fortunately gender neutral, but still bizarre).

But y'know, boob straps gotta hold them boobies in place

Not seeing the issue with that design. It's hot. Hot things are cool.

 

[ffdgh]

That nine minute my castle video has been translated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IE2PAYh2U0&feature=youtu.be

It looking great so far.

 

[xaszatm]

You should probably read through the thread again.

...Ok, fine. the last ~200 posts and a majority of this thread has been about the face-rub thing. The sexualized outfits have been talked about but are not as emphasized.

Happy? Or do I need to be more specific?

 

[Firemind]

If you read the entire post rather than distilling it to one sentence, the problem is that it only works in the hardest difficulties. Javelins are only really worthless in FE6 HM and let's be honest, how many people here are up to complete it? Let's not bring up Axes because Axes are mostly worthless in that game with the combination of being too fucking heavy, sub-50 hit rates, and being too fucking heavy,

No, the easiest solution is to limit it to one attack per player/enemy phase. This brings a workable solution that is not tied to difficulty.

Why is tying it to difficulty a problem? Reading this thread, not a lot of people seem to care about strategy/tactics and for the people who do care, that's what the harder difficulties are for. Map design and objectives will make or break IF.

 

[Draxal]

Kozaki can also make great traditional designs
Google Bakumatsu Kikansetsu Irohanihoheto for reference.

People should also understand that a character artist is not in charge of the art direction. That's the role of the art director.
If IS weren't fine with the designs, then they would have asked him to redraw them.
The art direction of the series changed because of the new art director in Awakening. Not because of Kozaki.

Bingo, glad the art director realized his armor design was garbage in Awakening (and it was 100% on the director).

 

[Dice//]

Why is tying it to difficulty a problem? Reading this thread, not a lot of people seem to care about strategy/tactics and for the people who do care, that's what harder difficulties are for. Map design and objectives will make or break IF.

This would honestly be a great focus as well. I remember having a small giggle with what new way they can tell me to 'take out all enemies'.

 

[Tommy DJ]

Why is tying it to difficulty a problem? Reading this thread, not a lot of people seem to care about strategy/tactics and for the people who do care, that's what the harder difficulties are for. Map design and objectives will make or break IF.

So people who want to play a lower difficulty don't really care about the strategy or tactics aspects of a SRPG? Are you seriously saying this?

And lets be honest here, map objectives in Fire Emblem have basically always been glorified rout maps.

Again: what is wrong with eliminating double attack with javelins and hand axes? Why is this change so offensive to you? Its easily the most obvious solution that limits the enemy phase effectiveness of some units. FE12's solution results in a game that is way, way too difficult for the majority of people who like strategy games and FE6's solution is to make everything (except for Killer Weapons strangely) have atrocious hit rates. FE6's solution is downright terrible and frustrating for everyone, regardless of skill level, and FE12's solution only works in a difficulty a lot of people find utterly frustrating. So what is wrong with a solution that works perfectly for people of all skill levels?

 

[Nerokis]

The girls outfits > guys outfits.

I'm sure they showed great restraint showing two guys getting their faces touched and not showing the girl's hot spring. I'm talking about outfits... The face-rubbing is...just weird (fortunately gender neutral, but still bizarre).

But y'know, boob straps gotta hold them boobies in place

It's interesting, some people think FE is going for the otaku audience now, but that doesn't make much sense to me. Pandering to otaku isn't a recipe for long term success, and Awakening's success in the West was surely a big part of the justification for making If.

The problem that creeps up is probably more to do with a lack of imagination. They're overly informed by anime tropes, for one. And while Nintendo has been trying more and more to cater to a non-straight male audience (I think this shows far more, even in FE, than whatever "otaku pandering" people perceive), most of the people working on these games still see things through the lens of straight males. Combination of those two things ends up creating a pretty imperfect product in terms of design and characterization.

But overall, I think the discussion about these couple female designs has been pretty disproportionate. They don't tell the entire story of the audience FE is trying to capture, and they're not even the main problem. It's odd to me how people are latching onto a small list of design choices to make it seem like FE is doubling down on this very specific, tiny segment of people.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

He's not trying to make realistic battle wear.

It's not even a matter of "realistic." It could still be "fantastic" in some ways. The designs are just impractical, goofy and pandering in some cases. I'm not even asking for perfectly crafted armor wear here. I'm pointing out that characters with battle panties (Camilla) or battle bikinis (Charlotte) are just for cheap titillation and they could have easily chosen a more tasteful design.

Except this thread hasn't been talking about the extremely sexualized outfits (which I have earlier expressed my dislike on, to the point where I'm calling the characters: black cleavage, white bra, ninja bra, and abs), we're talking about a stylus rubbing mechanic that's honestly harmless and even better since at least in that its equal-opportunity fanservice.

We had a long back and forth on the design of Charlotte and Camilla. I'm not sure where you've been or what thread you're reading. Your posts complaining about whiners are just as bad and annoying.

 

[batfax]

That nine minute my castle video has been translated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IE2PAYh2U0&feature=youtu.be

"After winning, you will be able to recruit one of your opponent's characters." Suddenly I wonder if Luna/NotSevera (and any characters like her) was basically a way to include a recruitable character without conflicting with the weirdness that would come up if you recruited a Hoshido noble from streetpass while on the Nohr side of the story or viceversa.

 

[Toxi]

It's not even a matter of "realistic." It could still be "fantastic" in some ways. The designs are just impractical, goofy and pandering in some cases.

What, you're not a fan of giant hair drills in a medieval setting?

 

[orthodoxy1095]

What, you're not a fan of giant hair drills in a medieval setting?

Honestly, I'd rather they make the hair look ridiculous. I could take that a bit more seriously than I can battle panties and battle bikinis.

 

[Comfort Jones]

Not seeing the issue with that design. It's hot. Hot things are cool.

Yeah we were all totally off with the comments about pandering, sorry guys. Sorry for expecting women to at least sorta be wearing clothes when the game's trying to deliver a story about war I assume I'm supposed to at least sorta take seriously?

If you're not seeing the issue you're literally not even kinda trying to read the thread. Might as well point out a guy in blackface and say "dark skin is cool I don't see the issue here".

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Not seeing the issue with that design. It's hot. Hot things are cool.

Just proves the point. The game is pandering to a low denominator with cheap titillation.

If you don't see the issue, you might actually be a lost cause in the conversation of improving character design.

 

[Comfort Jones]

Just proves the point. The game is pandering to a low denominator with cheap titillation.

If you don't see the issue, you might actually be a lost cause in the conversation of improving character design.

Not seeing the problem. I like belts. Belts are cool.

 

[Firemind]

So people who want to play a lower difficulty don't really care about the strategy or tactics aspects of a SRPG? Are you seriously saying this?

For people who regard Awakening as their favourite game of the series, yes? Newsflash: not everyone plays games to exercise their brain. Which is fine. That's why difficulties exist.

Again: what is wrong with eliminating double attack with javelins and hand axes? Why is this change so offensive to you?

Where did I say that? You said javelins and hand axes hold bows down, so I said the simple solution is to simply nerf the usability of said items. That they made them unable to double attack is a great change I guess? I'm fine either way. Not sure what you're worked up about. My only reservation is the existence of the pair-up mechanic.

 

[rhandino]

That nine minute my castle video has been translated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IE2PAYh2U0&feature=youtu.be

It looking great so far.

YOU [ F L O P S ], The conversations on that touching minigame are hilarious! And It seems that you can do it with the male and female companions regardless of the gender of the avatar? YAAAS!

And the fact that you can get a 3D view of My Castle is amazing, the amount of screenshots that I'm going to make, HALP!

 

[Dice//]

For people who regard Awakening as their favourite game of the series, yes? Newsflash: not everyone plays games to exercise their brain. Which is fine. That's why difficulties exist.

My first run at Awakening was in the middle of a jam-packed school semester. My mind have exploded if I played it on a hard difficulty. I basically played it to avoid having my mind go to mush (all work and no play make Dice go something-something). Truly loved Awakening for that.

 

[Kouriozan]

That nine minute my castle video has been translated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IE2PAYh2U0&feature=youtu.be

It looking great so far.

Ah thanks, I was looking after one.

 

[rhandino]

 

[Comfort Jones]

If your dialogue sounds like the beginning of a hentai...

.________.

 

[Maintenance]

.

 

[CSX]

LOL at the reactions to the meal.

 

[Tommy DJ]

Where did I say that? You said javelins and hand axes hold bows down, so I said the simple solution is to simply nerf the usability of said items. That they made them unable to double attack is a great change I guess? I'm fine either way. Not sure what you're worked up about. My only reservation is the existence of the pair-up mechanic.

You seemed to insinuate that when you suggested that the better solution was to nerf the might or accuracy or durability of 1-2 ranged weapons. Considering your attitude towards the more casual side of Fire Emblem, I assumed you were inherently against this change.

I mean this comment:

For people who regard Awakening as their favourite game of the series, yes? Newsflash: not everyone plays games to exercise their brain. Which is fine. That's why difficulties exist.

Combined with other comments like those in response to changes to the durability mechanic makes it very hard for me to assume you're anything but hard headed against these recent changes. Newsflash: there are people who like Fire Emblem for the SRPG aspect but are not die hard fans or very familiar with series mechanics. The elimination of double attack nerfs javelins and hand axes regardless of any statistics (might, accuracy, player unit, enemy unit) which is why it is good. Since we agree that both methods work, well I guess that's that.

 

[Dice//]

That nine minute my castle video has been translated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IE2PAYh2U0&feature=youtu.be

It looking great so far.

"I am honoured to be directly touched by you!"

Great to get more in-depth noise about the Castle stuff; it's a great direction and a nice filler for what I miss about Suikoden so much.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Not seeing the problem. I like belts. Belts are cool.

I legitimately like this design and think comparing it to the creepy shit in Fire Emblem If is frustrating.

The worst I can say about this design is it's cluttered and bizarre (but I always thought it was reflecting the fact the FFTA-world takes place in a videogame, and it was the kid's idea of what's cool?), but there's nothing that would make people who see you playing a game with this character think you're a sexual deviant.