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Firewatch | Spoiler Discussion

To anyone who didn't like the ending: Have you thought that maybe the devs intended you to feel disappointed that Delilah left without you, because that's exactly how Henry felt?

I addressed this in the OT.

I was extremely invested in the relationship between the two characters, and I felt like the ending given was not nearly a suitable climax for the dialogue and storytelling even disregarding all the conspiracy stuff. Just the basic relationship between Henry and D felt like it had too abrupt a halt. And even if that's the point, it's a shitty point. Just because it's intentional or "realistic" doesn't make it good storytelling.

"Intention" does not equal "quality".
 

Javier23

Banned
I'm pretty sure that the sheet you find in the research camp with the four subjects and their radio frequencies is actually tracking data for elk that were part of one of the research studies. It had nothing to do with Henry, Delilah or the others; it's just that Henry twisted everything in the tent to fit the theory that some malevolent power was tracking them based on Ned's planted reports. ("Frequent departure from Two Forks area" does happen to match up with Henry's recent activities, but it's also quite possible to read that in the context of animal migratory patterns.)
Am I not remembering this correctly or didn't the female elk had a boyfriend called Javier per the sheet?

Nah, I don't think your theory's quire right.
 

Jake

Member
In the research site there are two pieces of tracking information:

1) There's a clipboard containing info for four tracked "subjects" which are numbered and have descriptions. One of those four numbers can be found on the tracking collar of a dead elk in the game (late game like day 78, west of Hawk's Rest). That's what the research site was studying. (That's why there is also a photo of an elk and a "just hoof it" mug in there. That research site is probably full of ungulate nerds and soil/geothermal offgassing geology dorks when it's staffed.)

2) There are brief reports on Henry and Delilah, which were hurriedly put there by Goodwin and chucked onto the desk just before Henry got there. You can see rejected drafts of these reports by the typewriter in Goodwin's hideout.
 

Oreoleo

Member

Interesting chat, thanks for the link.

Shame that Unity seems to be the reason so much of the "open world" is corridor'ed off.

And also kind of telling that they made a bulk of the game/story without knowing what the ending was going to be.

It's neat there's so many permutations of dialogue with the minimal amount of sequence breaking that was seemingly unavoidable. As lukewarm as I was to the whole shebang I'm inclined to give the game another go. The dialogue was obviously the best part of the game so playing a 2nd time in a completely different way might still be rewarding.
 

Jake

Member
And also kind of telling that they made a bulk of the game/story without knowing what the ending was going to be.

I don't know how far to get into this but Ned & Brian being in the tower, Ned listening to you, you finding Brian's body in the cave, telling to Delilah on the last day, going to her tower to leave and having one final radio conversation before heading out for good, was in the game for probably 75% of its production. The details surrounding it were shuffled around -- for instance, there was a long time where the story was that Delilah didn't know Brian was out there, only Ned did and hadnt told any other lookouts, and Henry became fascinated by this kid that was missing but not on record and Delilah didn't really care about it, but it didn't work so the story was reworked to bring Delilah into the Goodwin's story more more. That's the sort of thing that we changed around, not the actual plot events of the end. Those sorts of changes do have big important and effective effects on the characters and what they say to each other in the final game, but not so much on the overall plot or order of events.
 
D

Deleted member 30609

Unconfirmed Member
I don't know how far to get into this but Ned & Brian being in the tower, Ned listening to you, you finding Brian's body in the cave, telling to Delilah on the last day, going to her tower to leave and having one final radio conversation before heading out for good, was in the game for probably 75% of its production. The details surrounding it were shuffled around -- for instance, there was a long time where the story was that Delilah didn't know Brian was out there, only Ned did and hadnt told any other lookouts, and Henry became fascinated by this kid that was missing but not on record and Delilah didn't really care about it, but it didn't work so the story was reworked to bring Delilah into the Goodwin's story more more. That's the sort of thing that we changed around, not the actual plot events of the end. Those sorts of changes do have big important and effective effects on the characters and what they say to each other in the final game, but not so much on the overall plot or order of events.

Fascinating to read stuff like this, thanks for posting.
 

colinp

Banned
I don't know how far to get into this but Ned & Brian being in the tower, Ned listening to you, you finding Brian's body in the cave, telling to Delilah on the last day, going to her tower to leave and having one final radio conversation before heading out for good, was in the game for probably 75% of its production. The details surrounding it were shuffled around -- for instance, there was a long time where the story was that Delilah didn't know Brian was out there, only Ned did and hadnt told any other lookouts, and Henry became fascinated by this kid that was missing but not on record and Delilah didn't really care about it, but it didn't work so the story was reworked to bring Delilah into the Goodwin's story more more. That's the sort of thing that we changed around, not the actual plot events of the end. Those sorts of changes do have big important and effective effects on the characters and what they say to each other in the final game, but not so much on the overall plot or order of events.

Is it fair to say the research site was a later addition then?
 

Jake

Member
Is it fair to say the research site was a later addition then?

It probably came in half way through development? I don't actually remember the order of events for most of mid-development. Henry, Delilah, and Ned were all around super early, then Brian, and then "all the things that happen once they start bouncing off each other," which was a jumbled process that all becomes a blur unless you go back and spend ages untangling it for posterity. (Which I haven't done yet!)
 

colinp

Banned
It probably came in half way through development? I don't actually remember the order of events for most of mid-development. Henry, Delilah, and Ned were all around super early, then Brian, and then "all the things that happen once they start bouncing off each other," which was a jumbled process that all becomes a blur unless you go back and spend ages untangling it for posterity. (Which I haven't done yet!)

Interesting. In general are you guys pleased with the reception thus far?
 

Haunted

Member
In the research site there are two pieces of tracking information:

1) There's a clipboard containing info for four tracked "subjects" which are numbered and have descriptions. One of those four numbers can be found on the tracking collar of a dead elk in the game (late game like day 78, west of Hawk's Rest). That's what the research site was studying. (That's why there is also a photo of an elk and a "just hoof it" mug in there. That research site is probably full of ungulate nerds and soil/geothermal offgassing geology dorks when it's staffed.)
I respect this level of attention to detail.
 

Oreoleo

Member
I don't know how far to get into this but Ned & Brian being in the tower, Ned listening to you, you finding Brian's body in the cave, telling to Delilah on the last day, going to her tower to leave and having one final radio conversation before heading out for good, was in the game for probably 75% of its production.

Ah, hm. Maybe I misheard or misinterpreted what one of you said on the IGN round table but it made it sound like you guys weren't sure how the final moments were going to come to pass until much later, specifically upon reaching Delilah's tower. There was talk about whether or not meeting Delilah should be in the cards at all, and also the helicopter being added somewhat last minute led me to think the ending wasn't as planned as you're suggesting. Not trying to make accusations, just explaining where my post was coming from.

The specifics of how the relationship between Brian, Henry and Delilah changed through development is understandable though and actually really insightful into the development process and how you try to account for players missing items or withholding info from Delilah and make sure someone doesn't accidentally cheat themselves out of the story. It's really interesting so thanks for sharing that stuff.
 

Jake

Member
Interesting. In general are you guys pleased with the reception thus far?

Yeah, definitely. The team is really proud of the game and super pleased with the response its gotten. There has been a ton of positive response which is such a relief, and the not positive responses to this game are interesting to read and consider, which is really rad (and rare) in and of itself.

Ah, hm. Maybe I misheard or misinterpreted what one of you said on the IGN round table but it made it sound like you guys weren't sure how the final moments were going to come to pass until much later, specifically upon reaching Delilah's tower. There was talk about whether or not meeting Delilah should be in the cards at all, and also the helicopter being added somewhat last minute led me to think the ending wasn't as planned as you're suggesting. Not trying to make accusations, just explaining where my post was coming from.

The specifics of how the relationship between Brian, Henry and Delilah changed through development is understandable though and actually really insightful into the development process and how you try to account for players missing items or withholding info from Delilah and make sure someone doesn't accidentally cheat themselves out of the story. It's really interesting so thanks for sharing that stuff.

"Is Delilah there or not" was something that came up a lot early on, but Delilah's absence was also locked in pretty early. We'd often gut-check that decision just to make sure we hadn't talked ourselves out of our earlier idea but it increasingly landed on "there's no way she'd stay." Sean actually talks a lot about this on an upcoming interview we did with Greg Miller on Kinda Funny. I'm not sure when it publishes but who Delilah is and the inevitability of them not meeting (from our perspective) gets a decent chunk of airtime if I remember correctly.
 

Chobel

Member
I'm pretty sure that the sheet you find in the research camp with the four subjects and their radio frequencies is actually tracking data for elk that were part of one of the research studies. It had nothing to do with Henry, Delilah or the others; it's just that Henry twisted everything in the tent to fit the theory that some malevolent power was tracking them based on Ned's planted reports. ("Frequent departure from Two Forks area" does happen to match up with Henry's recent activities, but it's also quite possible to read that in the context of animal migratory patterns.)
In the research site there are two pieces of tracking information:

1) There's a clipboard containing info for four tracked "subjects" which are numbered and have descriptions. One of those four numbers can be found on the tracking collar of a dead elk in the game (late game like day 78, west of Hawk's Rest). That's what the research site was studying. (That's why there is also a photo of an elk and a "just hoof it" mug in there. That research site is probably full of ungulate nerds and soil/geothermal offgassing geology dorks when it's staffed.)


2) There are brief reports on Henry and Delilah, which were hurriedly put there by Goodwin and chucked onto the desk just before Henry got there. You can see rejected drafts of these reports by the typewriter in Goodwin's hideout.

Son of a bitch. I seriously thought it's about 4 persons.
 

KC Denton

Member
Am I not remembering this correctly or didn't the female elk had a boyfriend called Javier per the sheet?

Nah, I don't think your theory's quire right.
In Ned's hideout, you find a plan to sneak into the research area and a bunch of scrapped rough drafts of the "research papers" on Henry and Delilah. It's implied as well as stated outright that Ned planted those documents to make the elk research station look like a human monitoring station.
 

FireFly

Member
I addressed this in the OT.

I was extremely invested in the relationship between the two characters, and I felt like the ending given was not nearly a suitable climax for the dialogue and storytelling even disregarding all the conspiracy stuff. Just the basic relationship between Henry and D felt like it had too abrupt a halt. And even if that's the point, it's a shitty point. Just because it's intentional or "realistic" doesn't make it good storytelling.

"Intention" does not equal "quality".
But what if you want to make a game about what it feels like to be abandoned? How do you make that game without in some sense disappointing the player?

Unless you are saying that only certain types of story can be told.
 

LiK

Member
Finished it and i absolutely loved the VO/dialogue. Dellilah's VA, Cissy is amazing. What a great performance. I fell in love with D because of her.

I do have to say that the pacing for story felt off and I didn't care about the missing Goodwins because it didn't feel like you learn a lot about them in the course of the game until in the last third of the game. i felt that their whole subplot was actually pretty bad. maybe if it was just about the missing kid, i would more into it but the whole dad becoming a hermit and secretly recording them was really awkward. it was doing the whole misdirection thing that i sorta predicted.

The ending was fine for me. i liked that we never met D face to face. she's purely a voice that maybe someday Henry will meet in the future. the ending is open enough for me.

Technically, it ran horrible on PS4 and i only experienced one crash. but the VO and music kept me immersed. I hated that pulling up the map used the UP button. Wish i could use it with the Touchpad instead. I barely cared about checking stuff i found so i never used the Touchpad at all.
 

Visceir

Member
Dunno, Delilah seemed far too flawed for me/Henry to have any kind of romantic attachment to her. Starting with the jokes/sarcasm straight from the get-go, her drinking, avoiding responsibilities and her having a boyfriend to top it all off. I did my best to avoid all romantic options in the conversation while trying to remain friendly and suggested her to go become a crossword puzzle creator in the end.

This was probably also what made the ending seriously underwhelming, especially after hearing such high praise for it in certain podcasts.
 

Stoze

Member
To anyone who didn't like the ending: Have you thought that maybe the devs intended you to feel disappointed that Delilah left without you, because that's exactly how Henry felt? One of the dialogue options was "I'm disappointed" even. That was one the reasons I liked the ending, you the player felt pretty much the same emotions as the character did in the game, even though I understood why she left. Others here have mentioned what it's like to form a close relationship with someone without ever even meeting them face to face; it can be pretty awkward, not to mention it could ruin the relationship that you had.

Yeah this was definitely part of it.

I see a lot of talk about the themes of relationships and isolation, and while they are certainly there, they aren't the theme. My interpretation was the entire game is about escaping reality and escaping your problems. This is Henry getting away from Julia and perhaps his alcoholism, Delilah escaping her past with Javier and other responsibilities, Brian escaping in his fantasy world of Wizards and Wyverns, Ned escaping facing the consequences of Brian's death, etc. There was even a note between Ron and Dave where one of them states outright that he's out here to get away from his Mom and sister.

And yes, in lieu of sounding pretentious, we, the players, are escaping from life by playing the game. That's kind of why I think the red herrings, the anti-climatic ending, and the Ned plot-twist works. We want to believe in this crazy conspiracy, to have some satisfying, cool plot twist, to take stabs at pretty outlandish ideas of what could be going on, just like Henry does and Delilah to an extent. It's fun and interesting, all of us are are kind of playing the game and piecing things together with the two characters. The ending was supposed to make you feel completely dispirited because reality is hitting you at about the same time it's hitting D & H (reality which could be seen as a physical manifestation as the fire itself).

The ending is supposed to be a come down/disappointment in terms of what you feel just as it is for the characters. The storytelling moves in a fashion where it's purposefully fulfilling thematically and purposefully unfulfilling by traditional means of a climax and falling action.
 

JoseLopez

Member
I had the same feeling I had when I played arkham knight which was it can't be this simple which it was.
I think the biggest issue is how quickly the game goes through after the first few days and how shit escalates so quickly.
 

LiK

Member
I had the same feeling I had when I played arkham knight which was it can't be this simple which it was.
I think the biggest issue is how quickly the game goes through after the first few days and how shit escalates so quickly.

it def needed a few more days to develop the relationship even more. i also wish they played with Henry's hallucinations a bit more. you get that one moment where he hears his wife and that's it.
 

hollomat

Banned
Finished it. Definitely not a fan.

Hated how the conversation in the beginning where Delilah is talking about you goes absolutely nowhere.

The complete worst part for me though was the first part with the fence. The fence was about 6 feet high and much more climbable than any of the rocks that you have already climbed numerous times at that point. Henry is willing to try to smash the lock with a rock and later come back with an axe to destroy it but he won't climb the fence? They could've at least put barbed wire on it or something.
 

Oreoleo

Member
Dunno, Delilah seemed far too flawed for me/Henry to have any kind of romantic attachment to her. Starting with the jokes/sarcasm straight from the get-go, her drinking, avoiding responsibilities and her having a boyfriend to top it all off. I did my best to avoid all romantic options in the conversation while trying to remain friendly and suggested her to go become a crossword puzzle creator in the end.

This was probably also what made the ending seriously underwhelming, especially after hearing such high praise for it in certain podcasts.

I had the exact same experience. From that conversation you overhear her having with someone else on Day 1 or 2 and the way she avoids certain questions/topics I was suspicious of her motives for the rest of the game and withheld as much info on Julia as possible leading to a rather dry farewell. I told her to be a crossword puzzle editor and she suggested I become an author, something that is only brought up because I mentioned my typewriter in passing one time. Considering one of the main themes of the game was the unrequited summer fling/moment-in-time romance/going back to the real world ending, it's disappointing the game didn't spend more time trying to build up the friendship/relationship more and instead made it so easy to keep her at arms length and let the Ned mystery plot get in the way of it all. Led to an overall empty and unemotional experience.
 
To anyone who didn't like the ending: Have you thought that maybe the devs intended you to feel disappointed that Delilah left without you, because that's exactly how Henry felt? One of the dialogue options was "I'm disappointed" even. That was one the reasons I liked the ending, you the player felt pretty much the same emotions as the character did in the game, even though I understood why she left. Others here have mentioned what it's like to form a close relationship with someone without ever even meeting them face to face; it can be pretty awkward, not to mention it could ruin the relationship that you had.

I feel like both the ending and the whole conspiracy plotline hurt the game's strongest point - the relationship between Henry and Delilah. Not the ending with her leaving, but the ending of the whole Ned plot.

This is where Gone Home beats this game by a country mile, it knew that if you want to have an ending that's grounded, realistic and even a tad bit anticlimactic, you root most of the tension and conspiracy into paranoia and imagination.

Firewatch completely throws that out the window with the dude KNOCKING YOU OUT from behind, all the paranoia is gone, all the realism is gone, this isn't something that can be explained by your imagination, there is actually a dude hunting you and stalking you. They then further overcomplicate things with that stupid research camp stuff and turning Ned from a war vet into the freaking commando. I threw the damn stereo into the lake, and he managed to fish it out and make an alarm device from it.....what....what.

Worse of all is that all the red herrings don't add anything to the story, nothing would be lost if this was a story about you finding out what actually happened to Brian and Ned after you discover that backpack without all the stalking bullshit.

In fact the red herrings of conspiracy become roadblocks for the development of the two main characters and actively obstruct the best part of the game. As soon as you get knocked out all of the conversation shifts to resolving the mystery with barely a trickle of information about the characters of Delilah and Henry. It's the reason why so many people complain that there is no character arc in the game, well that's because most of the character development gets completely cut off at pretty much the half-point of the game in favor of a contrived, lackluster conspiracy/mystery with an unsatisfying resolution.

Fuck Ned.
 
To anyone who didn't like the ending: Have you thought that maybe the devs intended you to feel disappointed that Delilah left without you, because that's exactly how Henry felt? One of the dialogue options was "I'm disappointed" even. That was one the reasons I liked the ending, you the player felt pretty much the same emotions as the character did in the game, even though I understood why she left. Others here have mentioned what it's like to form a close relationship with someone without ever even meeting them face to face; it can be pretty awkward, not to mention it could ruin the relationship that you had.
Well, for sure it's intended. And it's a good design accomplishment, too, to strike such a 'rejected' emotional reaction into everyone. It's not easy to make people care so much.

Most of the debate isn't behind the logic or even quality of it, but more about... does it actually make a good story. It's sort of like that Jurassic Park .gif: just because you figure out that you can make the player feel like shit, doesn't mean you have to =p The most recent similar experience to Firewatch for me actually is MGS V lol Delilah left me with that phantom pain.

I think a lot of people that didn't like the ending could also appreciate the fact that the game did enough things right that such an ending had any emotional effect at all. And I think most gaffers probably appreciate the unique experience and emotional reaction the game accomplished. That said, whether or not it was enjoyable or they liked it in hindsight is a different matter ;) I appreciate the ending a lot but I still felt rather downtrodden and even a bit bitter the day after. So, on one hand it's cool that a game tried something different and actually was able to make me feel that way. That said, I wouldn't make a habit of playing games that make me feel like I just got ditched by a close friend either haha ;p
 

~Kinggi~

Banned
Completed it all in one sitting. Was a nice story. Kept me interested. Ending was sad. Played on PC, game had some performance issues but for the most part it ran well on Ultra. Looked very pretty. I had one bug where an entire piece of the land disappeared as i left it. I think it glitched in trying to load a new area and un-loaded the last one. All in all it was a nice blend of game and story. 'Walking Simulator' seems to sell it short.

In fact the red herrings of conspiracy become roadblocks for the development of the two main characters and actively obstruct the best part of the game. As soon as you get knocked out all of the conversation shifts to resolving the mystery with barely a trickle of information about the characters of Delilah and Henry. It's the reason why so many people complain that there is no character arc in the game, well that's because most of the character development gets completely cut off at pretty much the half-point of the game in favor of a contrived, lackluster conspiracy/mystery with an unsatisfying resolution.

i can agree with this point. I felt like there was a relationship forming and the characters were changing and then all of a sudden it completely stopped in favor of crazy shit that ended up not being very crazy, and then ended in disappointment. But then again im not sure what the game would have been like solely focusing on just the two characters and casually looking out for fires.
 

Steejee

Member
Just finished, and while I could list off things I wish they had done with the game side (like less invisible walls and linearity, more days), the story is faultless to me.

I've had relationships like Henry and D had. Short, intimate, plutonic relationships that end on a dime one day, and I never see or speak to the person again. Ships passing in the night as they'd say. Never over radio, but there's certainly been plenty of internet 'friends' that I simply stopped talking to but left a big impact on me. Once, it was two people on a multi day train ride. I met, got to know, talked extensively with, and then said goodbye, but I'll never forget them.

The biggest impact for me storywise was really H+D's realization at the end of what had happened, D's horror of how she had failed, and the realization she had made the same mistake again with the teens. Ned's confession, even though they were not built up well, hit hard. A man who made a horrible mistake and panicked, and was unable to face reality.

The opening story with Julia hit me hard too. That short bit had more emotional weight than most big games do on whole these days.

All that said, the ending was perfect for me. D, in a way, panicked at the idea of actually meeting H, of having to meet the man she's spent a summer building in her head. She wanted to leave him as he was, and decided to leave.

I wonder about age and life experience of players (and decisions made in game) in reflection of the ending. As I said, it worked so well for me as I've had relationships just like D&H, including ones that could have become romantic but never did. If someone has never had several relationships like that, never known the pain of dementia in regards to Julia, would the story have the same impact?
 
I've already voiced my thoughts on the game regarding the story (I thought it was great), but I'm probably going to be a little bit controversial in saying I was a little disappointed by the overall visual and level design.

For the most part the game looked beautiful, the main areas were really well-crafted and gorgeous to take in, but my gosh, the game was occasionally really unpolished outside the 'golden path'. Some really bad communication in what was clear cut paths and what wasn't through the edges of areas. Sometimes you could navigate through dense shrubbery, sometimes you were blocked by waist high ones. Some really clumsy environment art jammed in here and there and spots that completely lacked any mesh detail or spots where you could see behind a rock mesh that had no back-facing. I kept running into areas where I wasn't allowed to walk or hop down foot-high ledges, or hitting weird invisible walls. That breaks immersion for me when the rest of the game is so damn good

I might be much more susceptible to noticing these things as I'm a level designer by trade, but it really broke my heart that a bunch of areas felt super rushed. For example, one spot down by the left of the waterfall:



it looks like the area was just blocked in with the basic terrain and a few trees, then totally forgotten about...

Looking back on this now, and that waterfall area was definitely the main offender visuals wise and I was probably being a bit harsh. Except for the underground parking lot - what even was going on there? - weird colour banding from light sources, low detail textures, looks like it's almost from a totally separate game!

I do keep noticing backfacing culling on objects that probably shouldn't have it though. But to be honest i'm finding excuses to scrutinize lol. I'm enjoying my second run through, trying to mess with the game as much as possible (especially after watching the IGN spoilercast!)
 

Skelter

Banned
I addressed this in the OT.

I was extremely invested in the relationship between the two characters, and I felt like the ending given was not nearly a suitable climax for the dialogue and storytelling even disregarding all the conspiracy stuff. Just the basic relationship between Henry and D felt like it had too abrupt a halt. And even if that's the point, it's a shitty point. Just because it's intentional or "realistic" doesn't make it good storytelling.

"Intention" does not equal "quality".

I still don't get why people say it's realistic. People fuck around all the time.
 

Quote

Member
When it comes to the ending, I don't really see how D&H meeting wouldn't have come off in any way besides cheesy as hell. I think an ending like that is exactly the kind of stories that already exist in gaming and get flak for it. Not having to create assets for D is probably cheaper but I think pulling off the current ending was risky, hard to deal with emotionally and the story was stronger for it. Also being in her tower, which is so similar but different to yours, pork pond, the crossword books, the drawing of you, the mat/plant in the outhouse, her slippers, the tequila. I could instantly visualize her side of every previous conversation then. That experience was worth more to me than meeting her. Actually, it feels like I did meet her.
 

hollomat

Banned
I feel like both the ending and the whole conspiracy plotline hurt the game's strongest point - the relationship between Henry and Delilah. Not the ending with her leaving, but the ending of the whole Ned plot.

This is where Gone Home beats this game by a country mile, it knew that if you want to have an ending that's grounded, realistic and even a tad bit anticlimactic, you root most of the tension and conspiracy into paranoia and imagination.

Firewatch completely throws that out the window with the dude KNOCKING YOU OUT from behind, all the paranoia is gone, all the realism is gone, this isn't something that can be explained by your imagination, there is actually a dude hunting you and stalking you. They then further overcomplicate things with that stupid research camp stuff and turning Ned from a war vet into the freaking commando. I threw the damn stereo into the lake, and he managed to fish it out and make an alarm device from it.....what....what.

Worse of all is that all the red herrings don't add anything to the story, nothing would be lost if this was a story about you finding out what actually happened to Brian and Ned after you discover that backpack without all the stalking bullshit.

In fact the red herrings of conspiracy become roadblocks for the development of the two main characters and actively obstruct the best part of the game. As soon as you get knocked out all of the conversation shifts to resolving the mystery with barely a trickle of information about the characters of Delilah and Henry. It's the reason why so many people complain that there is no character arc in the game, well that's because most of the character development gets completely cut off at pretty much the half-point of the game in favor of a contrived, lackluster conspiracy/mystery with an unsatisfying resolution.

Fuck Ned.

Completely agree with this. I had no issue with Delilah leaving at the ending, it was everything else. The fact that Ned goes from spying on you and knocking you out to just giving up for absolutely no reason makes no sense.
 
I feel like both the ending and the whole conspiracy plotline hurt the game's strongest point - the relationship between Henry and Delilah. Not the ending with her leaving, but the ending of the whole Ned plot.

Firewatch completely throws that out the window with the dude KNOCKING YOU OUT from behind, all the paranoia is gone, all the realism is gone, this isn't something that can be explained by your imagination, there is actually a dude hunting you and stalking you. They then further overcomplicate things with that stupid research camp stuff and turning Ned from a war vet into the freaking commando. I threw the damn stereo into the lake, and he managed to fish it out and make an alarm device from it.....what....what.

Worse of all is that all the red herrings don't add anything to the story, nothing would be lost if this was a story about you finding out what actually happened to Brian and Ned after you discover that backpack without all the stalking bullshit.

same thoughts for me
 
I think the primary problem with the game's ending, or at least, the thing that seems to be causing the biggest schism, is that the game wants you to care about the kid & his dad, but that endeavor is completely handicapped in how the information about those two is relayed. Even in its more touching moments, it's always of secondary (sometimes tertiary) importance to Henry and Dee's back & forth.

It never rises above "a thing Dee talks about when she's not talking about you, or you and her, and/or her." Her feelings of regret for leaving him out there come far too late, and never pack any real punch in comparison to the potential relationship between her and Henry (real or imagined), or the conspiracy that starts to unfold, which only seems interesting when dialog options ask you to lean into the idea this is some Twin Peaks-ish mindgame fuckery.

That said, when the credits roll and you see the snapshots of the kid and the dad, it works like it should have been working all game long. But unfortunately, the game's already over at that point.

It's a tough one, because part of the reason the game works so well as it does is the interplay between Dee & Henry, but in order to make the game have the oomph it really, really wants, you have to minimize that interplay and push more focus on the story of the kid & the dad, and make that a much more focal part of the mystery right up front. They didn't do that at all, and so you have a game that feels more or less like an Alex Garland screenplay: The first 2/3rds are delivering splendidly, and then when its time to actually deliver on the thesis, the rails get jumped and we just sorta rush towards that endpoint whether or not its earned, or even tracks with what came before.

But then again, I really like 28 Days Later, and Sunshine, and Ex Machina. And I like this, too. I'm apparently okay with jumping the rails with the story.
 

Opto

Banned
I think there needed to be more days of just doing firewatch stuff. I didn't like that Ned basically told me the answer to the mystery. Felt like some agency was taken away from me (Henry) in regards to the central plot. Maybe it's just a personal preference of mine, but a source of paranoia shouldn't be solved by the source.

More positive things: I loved Delilah. Great character. I would always look at her lookout when talking to her, cause I felt a genuine connection. Art was, of course, beautiful. Sound and the design of the national park was just great and had fantastic variety.
 

LaneDS

Member
I think the primary problem with the game's ending, or at least, the thing that seems to be causing the biggest schism, is that the game wants you to care about the kid & his dad, but that endeavor is completely handicapped in how the information about those two is relayed. Even in its more touching moments, it's always of secondary (sometimes tertiary) importance to Henry and Dee's back & forth.

It never rises above "a thing Dee talks about when she's not talking about you, or you and her, and/or her." Her feelings of regret for leaving him out there come far too late, and never pack any real punch in comparison to the potential relationship between her and Henry (real or imagined), or the conspiracy that starts to unfold, which only seems interesting when dialog options ask you to lean into the idea this is some Twin Peaks-ish mindgame fuckery.

That said, when the credits roll and you see the snapshots of the kid and the dad, it works like it should have been working all game long. But unfortunately, the game's already over at that point.

It's a tough one, because part of the reason the game works so well as it does is the interplay between Dee & Henry, but in order to make the game have the oomph it really, really wants, you have to minimize that interplay and push more focus on the story of the kid & the dad, and make that a much more focal part of the mystery right up front. They didn't do that at all, and so you have a game that feels more or less like an Alex Garland screenplay: The first 2/3rds are delivering splendidly, and then when its time to actually deliver on the thesis, the rails get jumped and we just sorta rush towards that endpoint whether or not its earned, or even tracks with what came before.

But then again, I really like 28 Days Later, and Sunshine, and Ex Machina. And I like this, too. I'm apparently okay with jumping the rails with the story.

Enjoyed this post, and agree with a lot of what you said.

Finished it earlier today and have been thinking about it throughout the day. Felt a little let down initially, thinking that after a wonderful setup and great character building there wasn't a worthwhile payoff in how I played Henry's character. Maybe that could have been different, but I get the sense from posts in here that I probably would have had a similar reaction regardless of how I decided to go through the game.

Glad I played through it, but I'm not sure how much of it will stick with me in the long run.
 

nOoblet16

Member
I think in the end it's just a guy who was too scared of the world. He sees you walk out of the cave where his dead son is and he doesn't know you don't have the key. He panics and starts to spy on you. The rest is him preying on the paranoia of both Henry and Delilah so he can smokescreen the whole "there's a dead kid in the cave".

I think in the end the real ending is not figuring out who's spying on you but rather when you get to Delilah's tower. The "antagonist" is just a plot device for what I feel the game is really about: a relationship that forms and bonds two strangers who are just running away from the real world.
That's the thing though, he should know. Considering he is listening to his radio conversations all the time. Plus didn't Need himself hand over thrnkey pretty much to Henry later on?

Also why wouldn't he bury his kid? He could still be a hermit and close to his son with his belongings, his fort and his grave. But nope instead he leaves ithe body just there hoping no one goes in.
 
Am I not remembering this correctly or didn't the female elk had a boyfriend called Javier per the sheet?

Nah, I don't think your theory's quire right.

Jake's already been in here to comment about this (also hi Jake! cool game!) but here's the screenshot I took, back when I was like "THIS WILL BE IMPORTANT LATER DOCUMENT EVERYTHING":

F6J3VUV.jpg

Son of a bitch. I seriously thought it's about 4 persons.

I know, right? That detail is now one of my favourite things about the game.

Totally random thought: was anyone else kind of disappointed that you never ever get to actually use the fire finder in your tower to do your job? It's this shiny thing in the middle of your tower that's begging to be used, and nuh uh. (I mean, I get why you never use it, but... so shiny!)
 

Clunker

Member
I think the primary problem with the game's ending, or at least, the thing that seems to be causing the biggest schism, is that the game wants you to care about the kid & his dad, but that endeavor is completely handicapped in how the information about those two is relayed. Even in its more touching moments, it's always of secondary (sometimes tertiary) importance to Henry and Dee's back & forth.

It never rises above "a thing Dee talks about when she's not talking about you, or you and her, and/or her." Her feelings of regret for leaving him out there come far too late, and never pack any real punch in comparison to the potential relationship between her and Henry (real or imagined), or the conspiracy that starts to unfold, which only seems interesting when dialog options ask you to lean into the idea this is some Twin Peaks-ish mindgame fuckery.

That said, when the credits roll and you see the snapshots of the kid and the dad, it works like it should have been working all game long. But unfortunately, the game's already over at that point.

It's a tough one, because part of the reason the game works so well as it does is the interplay between Dee & Henry, but in order to make the game have the oomph it really, really wants, you have to minimize that interplay and push more focus on the story of the kid & the dad, and make that a much more focal part of the mystery right up front. They didn't do that at all, and so you have a game that feels more or less like an Alex Garland screenplay: The first 2/3rds are delivering splendidly, and then when its time to actually deliver on the thesis, the rails get jumped and we just sorta rush towards that endpoint whether or not its earned, or even tracks with what came before.

But then again, I really like 28 Days Later, and Sunshine, and Ex Machina. And I like this, too. I'm apparently okay with jumping the rails with the story.
I just finished the game about an hour ago, and I'm still processing the whole thing, but something about your (nicely put, btw) criticism here stuck out to me: The notion that "Ned and Brian's story wasn't in the forefront, so the ending and overall effect doesn't work" only really applies if players are only willing to play through the game once, never go back, and generally assume the game has one singular "point" it's trying to make. The game has a lot of misdirects, but I don't think making the game more about Ned is really necessary: by having the Ned sections only doled out in small spots, it's something that I actually find more compelling because I have to go back and stretch a bit to recall and stitch together what happened.

Finishing Firewatch instantly reminded me of two things, both of which I know that Chris Remo, Sean Vanaman and Jake Rodkin are fans of: Thirty Flights of Loving, and Sleep No More. (Well, three, I guess: Gone Home is the obvious connection.) Tonally, both Thirty and Sleep No More are pretty different from each other, but both are all about not having any living clue what the fuck happened at first blush, then looping through it several times to piece together the story. Finding things that you didn't think were important the first time and then considering how they work together.

I actually like how Ned's story is punctuated in several isolated spots, and how I had no idea that he'd actually be a factor in the story at all. And while I understand how a lot of people could see this as a flaw, in the more classical understanding of game design of "foreground and spotlight Things of Great Importance," I feel like I've listened to enough commentary from the Idle Thumbs crew to know that they'd probably hate making such obvious overtures. Chekhov's Gun and all that.

It wasn't until the very end, when Delilah is pissed off at Ned (and my Henry choices were actually defending Ned a little), that I realized how all three of them were the same: when Dee says "how the fuck could Ned have not reported his son's death, even though he knew he should have done the right thing?" I knew the game was gesturing at how Delilah and Henry did the same thing. Dee says that she drifts from Javier because she just never bothered to come home after that death in his family; she knew she should have, but she just ... didn't, in that evasive, human way we all occasionally default on what we know are the good, right, moral ways of living. Just like she doesn't report the hikers, though you could easily say she's trying to protect Henry (but who knows? Could just as easily been all about avoiding her responsibility. She constantly talked about getting drunk, sitting alone in the woods, and just not having to deal with anything).

Similarly, I ended up having Henry say "I shouldn't be here" whenever I could, because it was true: he shouldn't have been. He should have been the Good Husband, beside his ailing wife, but being the Good Guy (or the Good Girlfriend or the Good Father or the Good Citizen) can be just so fucking exhausting sometimes, right? Either you get tired of it and just give up or you have a momentary lapse and then you're so wracked with guilt that you can't even bring yourself to think about how to fix it, so you just ignore, evade, escape, run.

My initial gut-check on Firewatch is that it's about that ugly human instinct to Not Want To Deal. Faced with a painful truth, the brain can go through pretty contorted mental gymnastics to avoid having to deal with it. It's interesting that Delilah is the one to break character and just flat-out slap Henry with the cold truth: Go be with your horribly sick wife, Hank. I felt myself super disappointed that Delilah wasn't in the tower when I got there, and then I hated myself for feeling disappointed, because the whole "relationship" (which even Delilah questions and feels awkward about questioning or even bringing up) is a figment. It's Schroedinger's Cat: it exists and doesn't exist, and as long as you don't directly talk about it or acknowledge it it can be both of those things at once, so can't we just lie to ourselves and just let things be and enjoy a snarky chat together? That's why Delilah can never be there for Henry - that would be the super sappy, shitty Hollywood ending that accomplishes nothing.

...Sorry, this is long and rambly. I'm exhausted and not making sense, but felt like jotting down some reactions before I went to bed. Finishing Firewatch left me a fair bit deflated and disappointed, but rather than this being a criticism, I'm more interested in trying to figure out why I was disappointed. That's something games almost never do, but it's something that can be employed to honest, gut-punching effect in literature and film.

TL;DR: Forget it, Henry, it's Chinatown.
 
I just finished the game about an hour ago, and I'm still processing the whole thing, but something about your (nicely put, btw) criticism here stuck out to me: The notion that "Ned and Brian's story wasn't in the forefront, so the ending and overall effect doesn't work" only really applies if players are only willing to play through the game once, never go back, and generally assume the game has one singular "point" it's trying to make. The game has a lot of misdirects, but I don't think making the game more about Ned is really necessary: by having the Ned sections only doled out in small spots, it's something that I actually find more compelling because I have to go back and stretch a bit to recall and stitch together what happened.

That was a great post, and thanks for writing it. Specifically this part:

My initial gut-check on Firewatch is that it's about that ugly human instinct to Not Want To Deal. Faced with a painful truth, the brain can go through pretty contorted mental gymnastics to avoid having to deal with it. It's interesting that Delilah is the one to break character and just flat-out slap Henry with the cold truth: Go be with your horribly sick wife, Hank. I felt myself super disappointed that Delilah wasn't in the tower when I got there, and then I hated myself for feeling disappointed, because the whole "relationship" (which even Delilah questions and feels awkward about questioning or even bringing up) is a figment. It's Schroedinger's Cat: it exists and doesn't exist, and as long as you don't directly talk about it or acknowledge it it can be both of those things at once, so can't we just lie to ourselves and just let things be and enjoy a snarky chat together? That's why Delilah can never be there for Henry - that would be the super sappy, shitty Hollywood ending that accomplishes nothing.

That's great shit, and I thought that myself more than a few times during the game, and I loved the way that whole aspect was handled. Felt very emotionally true. I also think we played the game fairly similarly.

I do think that the Ned/Brian story needed to be foregrounded more, but I'm not sure it needed to be the sole focal point. I just think, basically, in the attempt to make that aspect of the story appear/feel more organic in the storytelling, it ended up getting subsumed by the Dee/Henry codependency. That stuff is so engaging and so interesting that it's hard not for the Ned/Brian stuff to feel like a distraction from what's really working,(and to a lesser extent, the mocking way in which both Ned/Brian are referenced at almost every turn doesn't help there - if Dee & Henry think these two are beneath them in many ways, the player is going to pick up on that) and I think when the game ends and it turns out Ned/Brian was just as important, if not moreso, to the themes at play than anything Dee/Henry are bonding over, the disconnect is going to make itself felt.

I absolutely understand (and that's part of why the credit sequence provides the oomph the story itself couldn't) how Ned/Brian fit in the larger scheme of things, and on 2nd & 3rd playthrough, there are likely moments that will stand out more and feel more tethered to Dee/Henry than they did on that first playthrough. But it also seems like one of those elements of story that ends up working as intended only if you're already intimately familiar with the story being told. You can be too withholding/clever about doling out the proper dose of info & emotion if you're not accomodating the wider view as much as you maybe should be.

Basically, I'm not sure that necessitating a 3rd or 4th playthrough to fully understand and grasp something that should probably (and was likely intended to) work perfectly well on first run is a great choice. Or rather, I can see why it would lose people not willing to make those jumps on first run like I made, or not willing to give the game a 2nd or 3rd run to see what those alternate choices might cough up.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
I enjoyed this a lot more than I thought I would. I like how they wrapped things up and how it wasn't actually some kind of weird conspiracy theory thing or sci-fi stuff. That would have been cool, too, I suppose, but we've really got enough of that in popular fiction.

Maybe it's because I've got a young boy, but that last hour hit me pretty hard emotionally. I thought it was really well done, and I'm glad the dad wasn't just some crazy murderer.

I'm really impressed with Campo Santo's first outing. I hope this is successful for them and I can't wait to see what they do next.
 

Wok

Member
Just a thought that I had but did not take the time to check: there is a photo of a guy (Javier?) in D's lookout at the end of the game, and there is a photo of a missing guy in one of the caches (I don't remember which, I just remember the photo is hidden by a note of Ron/Dave which you can pick). Are these photos of the same guy?
 
Also, between this score and Gone Home's, Remo's 2-for-2. I was looping both of them at work the other day, alternating between the two. Just really, really good stuff.

Anyway: My photos

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07490b42-be4b-4838-8af9-4c51c3c911d4_normal.jpg

a0979068-8a7c-4e71-b90d-e8fd3823751e_normal.jpg

31fbf038-3c4b-4802-a48b-d6c33cfc66ed.jpg
 
You can find one, don't know where as I never found it, but others have said it's out there.

I found and adopted 2. One on day 2, and another shortly after being knocked out. I think it was a bug because the next day at the lookout, one turtle was in his box as usual, and the other was floating upside down about 4 feet off the ground. Leaving things line pine cones and the 20-sided die in the box would also cause problems for Bucket Jr.
 

Haunted

Member
The physics on the 20-sided die were a bit of a disappointment, not gonna lie.

I also thought Henry felt a bit frustrated at times and just wanted to pick something up and throw it as far as he could just to vent, but when I instinctively wanted to do that with a loose rock or a book or something, he just did the limpest of tosses.

Kinda weird what kind of narrow things can lead to disconnects from the game.
 

Asgan

Neo Member
OK, I skimmed through the topic, and I found answers to all the questions I had after the ending, except for one.

Who/what Delilah talks about in the beginning, when Henry's listening to her conversation with someone else, and has an oppotunity to interrupt her?
 
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