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Forza 3 vs Gran Turismo 5 Comparison Thread of John, Chapter 11, Verse 35

Dead Man

Member
Aug 24, 2007
54,266
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0
BoobPhysics101 said:
I guess they forgot to take it out on Simulation mode because of controller users, and need to add something beyond Simulation for wheel users. Some shit like that.
The Stealth Fox said:
Yes, and according to our resident Amar212, Dan Greenawalt has denied it. And apparently their latest update screws around with traction too.
Oh. That sucks.
 

The Stealth Fox

Junior Member
Dec 13, 2005
9,026
0
0
Wazzim said:
Holy shit at this page. We should demand everybody to post picks of the 2 games in their hand before taking their posts as somewhat serious. lol
I have my GT5 Blu-Ray but I don't know where my Simpsons Road Rage disc is.
 

panty

Member
Mar 23, 2011
8,802
0
0
In the land of the Finns
The Stealth Fox said:
I have my GT5 Blu-Ray but I don't know where my Simpsons Road Rage disc is.


I guess I can't participate then, as I only have Forza 2, Forza 3 and GT5. I'll wait for F4's price to drop.

So let me get this straight, Forza 4 is better even though

some of its driving assists are always on
-> thus less realistic driving experience
-> not a simulator
some car models look like poop
use of heavy pastel colors
-> less realistic looking
no weather/night -cycle, rally/nascar
-> less diversity
no support for Logitech wheels

BUT

it has constant 60fps and you can do custom liveries?
 

Dead Man

Member
Aug 24, 2007
54,266
0
0
PantyPhantom said:


I guess I can't participate then, as I only have Forza 2, Forza 3 and GT5. I'll wait for F4's price to drop.

So let me get this straight, Forza 4 is better even though

some of its driving assists are always on
-> thus less realistic driving experience
-> not a simulator
some car models look like poop
use of heavy pastel colors
-> less realistic looking
no weather/night -cycle, rally/nascar
-> less diversity
no support for Logitech wheels

BUT

it has constant 60fps and you can do custom liveries?
LOL, you say that like every GT5 car is a premium ;)
 

cool_dude

Banned
Jun 10, 2004
1,067
0
0
"I don't speak for "all the Forza fans" that are fighting you in this imaginary war you seem to have created, but it's the INCONSISTENCIES that pushed me away."

The inconsistencies of GT5 reek of a rushed, unfinished project. If I ever submitted computer code for a final exam at my university that was incomplete, half-assed, inconsistent, "good-enough-to-not-fail" I would be ashamed of myself and anyone who perused my code. Being a near perfectionist, I would feel very guilty about my creation. But somehow Polyphony think$ it$ OK. $$$
 

Dead Man

Member
Aug 24, 2007
54,266
0
0
PantyPhantom said:
Well we can compare GT5's premium cars vs. Forza 4 cars? Yeah some of the standards look kinda awful but there's nothing wrong with the models, they're just SD.
LOL. No, some of them are genuinely terrible. They are not SD (standard definition?), they are rendered just the same as the premiums, they are just poor models, and in some cases, incredibly poor textures.
 

amar212

Member
Jul 13, 2007
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0
920
www.gtsurgeons.com
Dead Man said:
LOL. No, some of them are genuinely terrible. They are not SD (standard definition?), they are rendered just the same as the premiums, they are just poor models, and in some cases, incredibly poor textures.
I think Phantom is speaking about actual shape accuracy where he is right, I agree.

Even Standard models are really unbelievably accurate when actual dimensions and genuine shape lines are concerned. Of course, the modelling details vary from trash-like Subaru Legacy to almost-premium-looking Fairlady Z 280Z-L 2seater (S130) for instance.

But shape/chasis accuracy is top notch, as always to be honest. Even the cars of the very first 1997 game were modelled with insane accuracy when shape and dimensions are concerned and that standard is yet to be achieved by competition.
 

Dead Man

Member
Aug 24, 2007
54,266
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0
amar212 said:
I think Phantom is speaking about actual shape accuracy where he is right, I agree.

Even Standard models are really unbelievably accurate when actual dimensions and genuine shape lines are concerned. Of course, the modelling details vary from trash-like Subaru Legacy to almost-premium-looking Fairlady Z 280Z-L 2seater (S130) for instance.

But shape/chasis accuracy is top notch, as always to be honest. Even the cars of the very first 1997 game were modelled with insane accuracy when shape and dimensions are concerned and that standard is yet to be achieved by competition.
In that respect, sure. But to say they are great models is a bit disingenuous to me. They are accurate, but they are not detailed.
 

Snubbers

Member
Jul 6, 2011
729
0
0
The fact people think GT5 physics are pure top drawer stuff is a little sad.

Both Forza and GT are pure sim-cade games..

If you truly think your definition and reference of a 'proper' sim is GT5, then, sorry, you are just being naive to say the least.

The last few pages (and possibly this thread) is just a pure GT5 irrational love-in.. I see about 2 people that seem to really push Forza, a few like me that see good/bad in both and treat them for what they are, and about 20 people who are so 'blinded' by GT, they are scarily pushing it as something almost religious.. That is based on the overwhelming reception of GT5 into the gaming world.. It's a game, it fell short in more areas then it absolutely nailed to perfection, it's always been a sim-cade, always will be, as will Forza!

I see irrationality on some pro-Forza comments too, but not on this scale..

I'm genuinely impressed how people can brainwash their way to pretend flaws don't exist in these games, how every omission/error/flaw has no consequence and how finding the most limited proof of a good/bad feature is blatantly used as overwhelming evidence about the entire game..

I thought for a while that the thread had some chance of rationality and sensible discussion, but I see why it was created now.. I guess you just have to marvel at the comedy of it all.. :)
 

2real4tv

Member
Aug 9, 2007
4,358
0
0
cool_dude said:
"I don't speak for "all the Forza fans" that are fighting you in this imaginary war you seem to have created, but it's the INCONSISTENCIES that pushed me away."

The inconsistencies of GT5 reek of a rushed, unfinished project. If I ever submitted computer code for a final exam at my university that was incomplete, half-assed, inconsistent, "good-enough-to-not-fail" I would be ashamed of myself and anyone who perused my code. Being a near perfectionist, I would feel very guilty about my creation. But somehow Polyphony think$ it$ OK. $$$
This is laughable. You act as if the game is barely working, its actually a technical acheivement imo. Also, inconsistent != incomplete.
 

Angst

Member
Aug 26, 2004
5,138
0
0
47
Norway
Snubbers said:
The fact people think GT5 physics are pure top drawer stuff is a little sad.

Both Forza and GT are pure sim-cade games..

If you truly think your definition and reference of a 'proper' sim is GT5, then, sorry, you are just being naive to say the least.

The last few pages (and possibly this thread) is just a pure GT5 irrational love-in.. I see about 2 people that seem to really push Forza, a few like me that see good/bad in both and treat them for what they are, and about 20 people who are so 'blinded' by GT, they are scarily pushing it as something almost religious.. That is based on the overwhelming reception of GT5 into the gaming world.. It's a game, it fell short in more areas then it absolutely nailed to perfection, it's always been a sim-cade, always will be, as will Forza!

I see irrationality on some pro-Forza comments too, but not on this scale..

I'm genuinely impressed how people can brainwash their way to pretend flaws don't exist in these games, how every omission/error/flaw has no consequence and how finding the most limited proof of a good/bad feature is blatantly used as overwhelming evidence about the entire game..

I thought for a while that the thread had some chance of rationality and sensible discussion, but I see why it was created now.. I guess you just have to marvel at the comedy of it all.. :)
There was never any chance of that... lol

I think this thread is the most hilarious thread on gaf and it's always fun to throw oil on the fire and see what happens. Last couple of pages have been pro-GT5 mainly, but prior to that the Forza fans were pretty dominant.

I definitely qualify as a GT fanboy, but that doesn't mean I think Forza is a bad game, in fact I think it is a good game. I just get annoyed when people post shit like "GT5 looked like ass, I returned it after 1 race, menus menus menus, PD need to look at other games and implement pop-up messages telling me I'm doing good, it's not a game" etc :p
 

Truespeed

Member
May 6, 2007
7,123
2
930
cool_dude said:
"I don't speak for "all the Forza fans" that are fighting you in this imaginary war you seem to have created, but it's the INCONSISTENCIES that pushed me away."

The inconsistencies of GT5 reek of a rushed, unfinished project. If I ever submitted computer code for a final exam at my university that was incomplete, half-assed, inconsistent, "good-enough-to-not-fail" I would be ashamed of myself and anyone who perused my code. Being a near perfectionist, I would feel very guilty about my creation. But somehow Polyphony think$ it$ OK. $$$
Do you own GT5? Because I'd really like to hear why you consider it a unfinished, rushed and inconsistent game because that's a pretty ignorant comment to make without backing it up with facts. Also, please don't ever compare the small little POS apps you write in C# or Java with the GT5 code base. The comments alone, in the GT5 code base, are infinitely more complex then anything you've ever coded or will code.
 

jabuseika

Member
Feb 18, 2011
4,643
1
590
cool_dude said:
The inconsistencies of GT5 reek of a rushed, unfinished project. If I ever submitted computer code for a final exam at my university that was incomplete, half-assed, inconsistent, "good-enough-to-not-fail" I would be ashamed of myself and anyone who perused my code. Being a near perfectionist, I would feel very guilty about my creation. But somehow Polyphony think$ it$ OK. $$$

Wait, so you've created programs with Millions of lines of code for homework?

The thread that keeps on giving.
 

Snubbers

Member
Jul 6, 2011
729
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0
Truespeed said:
Do you own GT5? Because I'd really like to hear why you consider it a unfinished, rushed and inconsistent game because that's a pretty ignorant comment to make without backing it up with facts. Also, please don't ever compare the small little POS apps you write in C# or Java with the GT5 code base. The comments alone, in the GT5 code base, are infinitely more complex then anything you've ever coded or will code.
You really think that GT5 isn't highly inconsistent? Look at the menu 'path' logic, look at the implementation of head-tracking and leaderboards, look at the premium to standard cars, look at the difference graphically between say the Nordschielfe vs Grand-Valley..

Of course, I can point out many flaws in Forza, before you think I'm purely against GT5.. The MSAA drop between game modes, the mirror fps between game modes, etc, etc, etc..


jabuseika said:
Wait, so you've created programs with Millions of lines of code for homework?

The thread that keeps on giving.
Despite his lack of experience, and slightly misplaced analysis (A game has different priorities then his own software), his attitude towards his software design is quite commendable..

Laugh at him all you want, but he should keep approaching his software development in this manner, it'll serve him well in his career..
 

Angst

Member
Aug 26, 2004
5,138
0
0
47
Norway
cool_dude said:
"I don't speak for "all the Forza fans" that are fighting you in this imaginary war you seem to have created, but it's the INCONSISTENCIES that pushed me away."

The inconsistencies of GT5 reek of a rushed, unfinished project. If I ever submitted computer code for a final exam at my university that was incomplete, half-assed, inconsistent, "good-enough-to-not-fail" I would be ashamed of myself and anyone who perused my code. Being a near perfectionist, I would feel very guilty about my creation. But somehow Polyphony think$ it$ OK. $$$
I take it you've never played any other games? Tried F1 2011? NFS Shift? If you said the above about those games I could understand your post. At GT5 launch there was no gameplay breaking bugs, no cars bouncing up and down on the track etc.

Snubbers said:
You really think that GT5 isn't highly inconsistent? Look at the menu 'path' logic, look at the implementation of head-tracking and leaderboards, look at the premium to standard cars, look at the difference graphically between say the Nordschielfe vs Grand-Valley..

Of course, I can point out many flaws in Forza, before you think I'm purely against GT5..
There are inconsistencies in GT5, sure. GVS looks good IMO, but not as good as Nordschleife. Trial Mountain and Deep Forest looks pretty bland. Head-tracking in GT5 sucks and they would have been better off not including it at all. Premium to Standards - don't really care because most of them look good, with some glaring exceptions (Berlinette etc).

But the driving is soooo good that none of the inconsistencies makes me want to throw my controller at the screen, like the examples given above did.
 

Solal

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Dec 19, 2009
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640
Truespeed said:
Do you own GT5? Because I'd really like to hear why you consider it a unfinished, rushed and inconsistent game because that's a pretty ignorant comment to make without backing it up with facts. Also, please don't ever compare the small little POS apps you write in C# or Java with the GT5 code base. The comments alone, in the GT5 code base, are infinitely more complex then anything you've ever coded or will code.
Guy, if you want to know why GT5 is an unfinished, unproduced and unpolished game, just look back at all the threads about it, ...you are denying the undeniable. Seriously: a little bit of honesty from time to time...
 
Sep 15, 2010
4,253
0
0
Snubbers said:
The fact people think GT5 physics are pure top drawer stuff is a little sad.

Both Forza and GT are pure sim-cade games..

If you truly think your definition and reference of a 'proper' sim is GT5, then, sorry, you are just being naive to say the least.

The last few pages (and possibly this thread) is just a pure GT5 irrational love-in.. I see about 2 people that seem to really push Forza, a few like me that see good/bad in both and treat them for what they are, and about 20 people who are so 'blinded' by GT, they are scarily pushing it as something almost religious.. That is based on the overwhelming reception of GT5 into the gaming world.. It's a game, it fell short in more areas then it absolutely nailed to perfection, it's always been a sim-cade, always will be, as will Forza!

I see irrationality on some pro-Forza comments too, but not on this scale..

I'm genuinely impressed how people can brainwash their way to pretend flaws don't exist in these games, how every omission/error/flaw has no consequence and how finding the most limited proof of a good/bad feature is blatantly used as overwhelming evidence about the entire game..

I thought for a while that the thread had some chance of rationality and sensible discussion, but I see why it was created now.. I guess you just have to marvel at the comedy of it all.. :)

Bravo. This post is excellent.

I find it hilarious that anyone in this thread brings up driving physics - yeah, these games are leaps and bounds above Gran Turismo 1-3, but I doubt 99% of the people in this thread even KNOW what real track 'driving physics' (lol) feel like.

I'm sorry, but until you've experienced hitting 1.0+ g's in a turn while simultaneously balancing the car on an razor's edge and hitting the limits of traction while keeping the wheel steady, feeling rather than seeing the breaking point through chassis feedback and tire feedback and modulating throttle all at the same time, shut up about driving physics/feel because NONE of these games simulate that and you don't know what it should feel like anyways. :\

Hell, these games don't even get alignment correct - using real life track alignment on the cars in the games doesn't have the same affect on cars as it does in real world, same with roll bars etc.
 

Fortinbras

Member
Sep 12, 2007
2,709
33
905
KKRT00 said:
Really fair AI comparison between GT 5 Spec II and Forza 4.
Same car, same corner, same car position and three tests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E
I'm really enjoying Forza 4 but man...the AI is really terrible. I think it's actually worse than in the previous game.

I'd like Turn 10 to fix the AI but I'm sure they have too much to do - planning paid dlcs and stuff...
 

SmokyDave

Member
Dec 8, 2008
35,663
33
825
England
BoobPhysics101 said:
Bravo. This post is excellent.

I find it hilarious that anyone in this thread brings up driving physics - yeah, these games are leaps and bounds above Gran Turismo 1-3, but I doubt 99% of the people in this thread even KNOW what real track 'driving physics' (lol) feel like.

blahblahblahI'mTheStigblahblahblah.
You do realise that these things are relative, right?

I mean, I love my PC sims as much as the next man but that doesn't change the fact that there is a clear and obvious distinction between GT5 / F4 and Burnout / Initial D. The former are what we would commonly term 'sims'. Yes, they are lacking in comparison to PC sims, fully blown mechanical sims and real life track driving but that's not really the point.

Do you discount MS Flight Simulator as a sim because it can be played without ever leaving the ground?
 
Sep 15, 2010
4,253
0
0
SmokyDave said:
You do realise that these things are relative, right?

I mean, I love my PC sims as much as the next man but that doesn't change the fact that there is a clear and obvious distinction between GT5 / F4 and Burnout / Initial D. The former are what we would commonly term 'sims'. Yes, they are lacking in comparison to PC sims, fully blown mechanical sims and real life track driving but that's not really the point.

Do you discount MS Flight Simulator as a sim because it can be played without ever leaving the ground?
Relative to an extent. If you listen to some posters in this thread, they'd have you think that Gran Turismo 5 is so perfect and realistic that it'll leave your hair windswept and give you cancer from the exhaust fumes while Forza 4 is Crash Team Racing: Redux.

As far as I'm concerned, there's only one sim that truly nails it and sets the standard for realism in its genre and is as close as you'll get to real life:

 

tusken77

Member
May 10, 2010
2,093
0
645
PantyPhantom said:


I guess I can't participate then, as I only have Forza 2, Forza 3 and GT5. I'll wait for F4's price to drop.

So let me get this straight, Forza 4 is better even though

some of its driving assists are always on
-> thus less realistic driving experience
-> not a simulator
some car models look like poop
use of heavy pastel colors
-> less realistic looking
no weather/night -cycle, rally/nascar
-> less diversity
no support for Logitech wheels

BUT

it has constant 60fps and you can do custom liveries?
Putting aside the lack of dynamic time, weather, surfaces, some of the reasons why I just can't take Forza seriously: forced/hidden/whatever you want to call them assists, the ability to rewind, Kinect, the ability to buy any car you want with real money, that new floating 'Steering Wheel' thing, the game's exaggerated look and sound (or as the Forza 4 trailer likes to call it "Hollywood-style video and audio effects"), the general lack of accuracy, the widening of tracks, cartoons on cars via the livery editor, as seen in yesterday's video - the dumb as rocks AI, Dan Greenwalt.
 
since I see to much "immersion" being discussed here, here's my everyday racing immersion schedule:

1.boot up g5, prepare to race.
2.stick close behind 2 or 3 cars at the start of race

3.game starts to TEAR them cars in the middle horizontally right in front of my face

there goes immersion. bye bye
dont care what the gif's or the dslr pics show.
for me, its not representative. the meat is not prime.


All guys that suck up on this and still go on to describe how "reality mixed with game" are really way different players that enjoy way different things about their racing than I am.

Also, it really breaks the brain trying to comprehend how some people defend gt5 sound over forza4 sound. impossible lol
 

Trunchisholm

Member
Mar 9, 2009
586
0
0
tusken77 said:
Putting aside the lack of dynamic time, weather, surfaces, some of the reasons why I just can't take Forza seriously: forced/hidden/whatever you want to call them assists, the ability to rewind, Kinect, the ability to buy any car you want with real money, that new floating 'Steering Wheel' thing, the game's exaggerated look and sound (or as the Forza 4 trailer likes to call it "Hollywood-style video and audio effects"), the general lack of accuracy, the widening of tracks, cartoons on cars via the livery editor, as seen in yesterday's video - the dumb as rocks AI, Dan Greenwalt.
Racing games... A serious business.

This thread is starting to show severe symptoms of the sharp-knees syndrome. Seriously, I don't know if people play these games to have fun anymore, or if they just want to nitpick every single thing about them.

I know that's what the thread is for, but many people mistake what are merely compromises with real flaws. Each game has its strenghts and shortcomings, but those are choices that are usually made way before the game is shipped. If you prefer one to the other of if you have only one console, there's no need to dismiss the other game or belittle their players for liking a game that doesn't reach X fps or doesn't have X features most people won't even care about.

I just think this generation has been great for those who are fans of racing games, with many great titles, including some fantastic new series. The only thing I'll be sorely missing is the PGR series.
 

KKRT00

Member
Feb 13, 2011
14,456
0
0
Warsaw - Poland
Seriously guys, stop with pointing out the Standards Cars.
Everyone would be happy if Sony would released GT 4 HD for 30$, but when You got cars in GT 5 for free with upscaled shaders and driving models, its bad - right?

And how can anyone compare bad modeled cars in FM 4 to standards?
Standards were modeled in PS2 era, FM cars were remodeled 3 times this generation, 3 times! and still there are crappy ones. Talk about inconsistency and inefficiency.
 
Sep 15, 2010
4,253
0
0
KKRT00 said:
Seriously guys, stop with pointing out the Standards Cars.
Everyone would be happy if Sony would released GT 4 HD for 30$, but when You got cars in GT 5 for free with upscaled shaders and driving models, its bad - right?

And how can anyone compare bad modeled cars in FM 4 to standards?
Standards were modeled in PS2 era, FM cars were remodeled 3 times this generation, 3 times! and still there are crappy ones. Talk about inconsistency and inefficiency.
You realize some of the Forza cars are modeled in-house, and some are contracted out? It's hard fucking work modeling those cars. Neither game gets them truly right.
 

KKRT00

Member
Feb 13, 2011
14,456
0
0
Warsaw - Poland
BoobPhysics101 said:
You realize some of the Forza cars are modeled in-house, and some are contracted out? It's hard fucking work modeling those cars. Neither game gets them truly right.
And how is that relevant? It was their decision to outsource, which is quite positive argument in most posts here. You can even see some suggestions that PD should outsource their models...
 

panty

Member
Mar 23, 2011
8,802
0
0
In the land of the Finns
BoobPhysics101 said:
You realize some of the Forza cars are modeled in-house, and some are contracted out? It's hard fucking work modeling those cars. Neither game gets them truly right.
Wait what? Are you saying there's something wrong with the premium cars in GT5?

Snubbers said:
The fact people think GT5 physics are pure top drawer stuff is a little sad.

Both Forza and GT are pure sim-cade games..

If you truly think your definition and reference of a 'proper' sim is GT5, then, sorry, you are just being naive to say the least.

The last few pages (and possibly this thread) is just a pure GT5 irrational love-in.. I see about 2 people that seem to really push Forza, a few like me that see good/bad in both and treat them for what they are, and about 20 people who are so 'blinded' by GT, they are scarily pushing it as something almost religious.. That is based on the overwhelming reception of GT5 into the gaming world.. It's a game, it fell short in more areas then it absolutely nailed to perfection, it's always been a sim-cade, always will be, as will Forza!

I see irrationality on some pro-Forza comments too, but not on this scale..

I'm genuinely impressed how people can brainwash their way to pretend flaws don't exist in these games, how every omission/error/flaw has no consequence and how finding the most limited proof of a good/bad feature is blatantly used as overwhelming evidence about the entire game..

I thought for a while that the thread had some chance of rationality and sensible discussion, but I see why it was created now.. I guess you just have to marvel at the comedy of it all.. :)
Ugh, this post reeks of elitism. I'm too tired to answer all the derp derp in this but I'm pretty sure some (most) of us know those "real" simulators, like iRacing and whatnot.
 

Dead Man

Member
Aug 24, 2007
54,266
0
0
Snubbers said:
The fact people think GT5 physics are pure top drawer stuff is a little sad.

Both Forza and GT are pure sim-cade games..

If you truly think your definition and reference of a 'proper' sim is GT5, then, sorry, you are just being naive to say the least.

The last few pages (and possibly this thread) is just a pure GT5 irrational love-in.. I see about 2 people that seem to really push Forza, a few like me that see good/bad in both and treat them for what they are, and about 20 people who are so 'blinded' by GT, they are scarily pushing it as something almost religious.. That is based on the overwhelming reception of GT5 into the gaming world.. It's a game, it fell short in more areas then it absolutely nailed to perfection, it's always been a sim-cade, always will be, as will Forza!

I see irrationality on some pro-Forza comments too, but not on this scale..

I'm genuinely impressed how people can brainwash their way to pretend flaws don't exist in these games, how every omission/error/flaw has no consequence and how finding the most limited proof of a good/bad feature is blatantly used as overwhelming evidence about the entire game..

I thought for a while that the thread had some chance of rationality and sensible discussion, but I see why it was created now.. I guess you just have to marvel at the comedy of it all.. :)
This post is utter rubbish and contains a tone of barely restrained elitism.

Snubbers said:
You really think that GT5 isn't highly inconsistent? Look at the menu 'path' logic, look at the implementation of head-tracking and leaderboards, look at the premium to standard cars, look at the difference graphically between say the Nordschielfe vs Grand-Valley..

Of course, I can point out many flaws in Forza, before you think I'm purely against GT5.. The MSAA drop between game modes, the mirror fps between game modes, etc, etc, etc..




Despite his lack of experience, and slightly misplaced analysis (A game has different priorities then his own software), his attitude towards his software design is quite commendable..

Laugh at him all you want, but he should keep approaching his software development in this manner, it'll serve him well in his career..
This one though is great. Consider yourself redeemed. ;)
 

amar212

Member
Jul 13, 2007
6,383
0
920
www.gtsurgeons.com
BoobPhysics101 said:
Bravo. This post is excellent.

I find it hilarious that anyone in this thread brings up driving physics - yeah, these games are leaps and bounds above Gran Turismo 1-3, but I doubt 99% of the people in this thread even KNOW what real track 'driving physics' (lol) feel like.

I'm sorry, but until you've experienced hitting 1.0+ g's in a turn while simultaneously balancing the car on an razor's edge and hitting the limits of traction while keeping the wheel steady, feeling rather than seeing the breaking point through chassis feedback and tire feedback and modulating throttle all at the same time, shut up about driving physics/feel because NONE of these games simulate that and you don't know what it should feel like anyways. :\

Hell, these games don't even get alignment correct - using real life track alignment on the cars in the games doesn't have the same affect on cars as it does in real world, same with roll bars etc.
Well, I will tell you a story. You will read it, you will acknowledge what it tells but in matter of one page from now you will completely forget it in order to fully back up your personal opinion.

I run a small dedicated virtual-racing community fro more than 5 years now. We also have more than 10 years of legacy since founders of the community are virtually and practically racing together fro more than decade.

Among our *founder* members are Croatian rally vice-champion with FIA experience and FIA license, guy who races for 20 years and have made tens of thousands of kilometres in both racing, rallying and testing all types of cars available on every surface known to man.

Another member is professional drifter, long-time member of Croatian Drifting Team and guy who invested everything he have to satisfy his real-ife passion for cars.

Third guy is semi-professional motorbike racer, avid car enthusiast and tester for cars.

Besides them, many of us who are not into real-life professional racing on daily basis have had a chance to take our real-life cars to race tracks and race them there during many Test Track drives with real cars, on real tracks and real racing conditions. So we pretty much know "what it should feel like anyways". Majority of *founder* members are people aged 32 and above - average is almost 35 at this point - with driving licences, cars and shared passion for automotive in general.

During past decade we all spontaneously gathered around Gran Turismo series. Worth noting is how all of us have also virtually raced all other racing games, mainly PC simulations: from Geoff Crammond GP series, rFactor, GTR games, GT Legends, LFS, Richard Burns Rally, NetKar, iRacing to all imaginable *simcade* console racers.

But at the end we all just stopped playing all of those other games and focused are passion in Gran Turismo.

When you ask our pro-rally guy what he finds accurate in Gran Turismo he will always say that no other game can capture feel of tires on the surface and to the force feedback wheel as good as GT games does. He highlights handling of the chasis and simulation of suspension over slopes as example that no other game can match. His favorite example of real-life accuracy is driving a RUF BTR on Sports Hard tires what he finds an ultimate simulation of tire/suspension behaviour in the genre.

Our drift-guy highlights low-speed physics and behaviour of comfort-hard tires/suspension modelling with pin-point perfect accuracy of handling as something that no other driving game can achieve. He plays LFS for ultimative low-speed-physics experience, but he finds LFS lacking very much in suspension department.

Our bike-guy also highlights tire/suspension behaviour and feel of the vehicle on the force feedback wheel. He also highlights Tourist Trophy as a game that introduced him to world of Polyphony Digital simulations and he finds it the best bike-simulator game ever conceived that led him to overcome scepticism towards consoles and bite into GT series without prejudice.

I personally have deep passion for implementation of sensation of tire-threshold through force feedback wheels. No other game I know allows me such smooth and precise handling with other cars in close vicinity. No other game puts so much emphasis on road cars, racing stock-value cars on regular compounds. No other game allows for such vast variety of vehicles/classes and types of vehicles. Also I have deep respect to unique maintenance/ownership philosophy of GT series that no other game even tries to compete with and which I find both intriguing and worth admiring from perspective of overal genre. Those are just some of the reasons I love GT series more than other driving games.

All of us also agree about another point - we want to see a game that will make all things above better than GT series does. We want to find that game that will make us to elevate current levels of virtual driving-sensation as GT series does. During past 7 years all of us were very interested in all new franchises that tried to walk the path that GT series established. We tried everything, from Enthusia over Sega GT, Ferrari Challenge games, Shift games, Codemasters titles, we tried to embrace new PC titles, some of members of my community invested a small fortunes into iRacing and rFactor... Few of us got into Forza series from the very beginning and very serious and we really hoped it will evolve into something that will allow us the same level of commitment into creating a believable virtual sensation of racing. But it just didn't happened. Everything came back to Gran Turismo.

Why? I really can't give you any logical and simple explanation. It is just matter of subjective and personal feel. We are all aware the many shortcomings of Gran Turismo. But we are also aware there is no perfect driving simulation outthere. We unanimously agree how all shortcomings of GT are vastly being overcome by its real accomplishments. When all of us put everything on the table, there is no driving game that can give as an allrounded experience as GT series provides.

More than ten years ago I said that many driving games maybe have something that Gran Turismo series does not have, but how no other driving game have what Gran Turismo has.

Once decade later and nothing has changed. At least not for me, and not for majority of members of my community who are still trying to find a game that will deliver the same amount of passion for automotive and actual driving sensation as GT series does on everyday basis. Until that day Gran Turismo series really remains the indisputable winner in category it basically invented 14 years ago. As far as virtual recreation of sensation of actual driving can go with technology affordable to mortal people, Gran Turismo really is the only real driving simulator. And as far as we are concerned - it is the only thing that really matters.
 

Snubbers

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PantyPhantom said:
Ugh, this post reeks of elitism. I'm too tired to answer all the derp derp in this but I'm pretty sure some (most) of us know those "real" simulators, like iRacing and whatnot.
Don't be daft, it's not elitism, it's pointing out the obvious..

Everyone 'knows' of iRacing, many people play that and GT and Forza, I could also go into reams of comparative features/technical aspects about why both GT and Forza are 'sim-cades', that is they have some features that are simulation, smattered with some arcade artistic licence.. I could even paint a picture where Forza excels above GT in some of the important physics, but what would be the point?

The bottom line? When you can so readily control a beast of a car in either game as if you where a driving god, you know full well that that's the tip of the iceberg as to why it's different to a PC sim.. (And yes, despite being quite a handful, cars in GT still are far too easy to drive compared to it's peers)

Then, you can go further down into the many layers/levels of physics, and you can see where each game excels, each games has applied artistic licence, and where each game may lack altogether.

This isn't some attack or derision of the games btw, I actually like the 'mix' that the console games bring to the table..

To be honest, the fact this thread seems all about the superficial (i.e. blatent graphics war raging), so I would expect that the analysis of 'driving physics' to also be quite superficial and in those terms, I can agree with some comments, but have to temper that with the fact these are actually sim-cades in many ways..


amar212 said:
Well, I will tell you a story. You will read it, you will acknowledge what it tells but in matter of one page from now you will completely forget it in order to fully back up your personal opinion.
Amar,

Whilst your story sounds really pretty, the fact is, these are games, there are so many differences to the 'real' world, the 'experience' is nothing like driving a car in real life..

I too know lots of people with track/race and other motorsport related experience, and you know what? A lot of them play Forza and GT, and all they will tell you is how the appear to react on a superficial level by and large.. with a large smattering of normal 'game preference' thrown in.. In fact, more seem to prefer the indepth tuning aspects of FM, and FM4 has had several comments on how much closer to reality the tyre physics appear to be on most levels..

But then, these are people that think iRacing is also just a game too, and a dry one at that..

Go figure..

Oh, and
When you ask our pro-rally guy what he finds accurate in Gran Turismo he will always say that no other game can capture feel of tires on the surface and to the force feedback wheel as good as GT games does
Really? how do you explain that that actual grip/tyre FFB is very subdued in GT? I hear a lot of superlatives from yourself (Your assessment of Spec 2 physics was very gushing), but if you take a FWD car, light it up from the start line it's as numb as anything, and I can say from hotlapping that the lack of feel of the grip is a PITA.. There is almost no feel of what the front tyres are doing, you just turn the wheel a bit more, give it more throttle, and the FFB doesn't communicate anything, the first you know about understeer is the visually and audibly.. About the best thing FM gets right (though not perfect) is the way the steering unloads and the grip levels are reasonably communicated, it's always been the track FFB effects where Forza under-delivers..