Garcia
Member
I was just about to write "I can't believe these guys" but you know what? From the bullshit they pulled it is not surprising anymore.
Damn it Scamco. You're not helping yourselves at all.
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From Software responds to Dark Souls II graphics downgrade concerns
- Thread starter Poetic.Injustice
- Start date
I was just about to write "I can't believe these guys" but you know what? From the bullshit they pulled it is not surprising anymore.
Damn it Scamco. You're not helping yourselves at all.
UnrealEck
Member
Those look like builds of the actual games to me. Those don't necessarily look like they've went and put their work on the actual game aside to build up a graphically superior showcase specifically to deceive. I am not saying those segments weren't created for a showcase though. Bear that in mind. I'm talking about the actual game, its engine, its assets etc (and more importantly its graphical fidelity at that time). There's no way anyone is going to know that's not how the game looked at that point in its development. There's no way of saying that wasn't the game. As for the Bungie comment, I'd have to know more about it. It's not telling me if it was a demo made for deceit or if it was setting the bar too high and needing to lower it or if it was even intended for release on PC (and it was on PC too) and thus targetted higher graphical features and quality.
Again, I don't know dark10x.
I'm curious as to what you mean by optimisation. What does your idea of optimisation involve in relation to those presentations of Dark Souls 2?
If you do a chargeback not only will the game be removed from your library but your account will be placed in a restricted state for nine weeks, during which you'll be prevented from purchasing, activating keys, gifting/trading and perhaps also locked out of Steam Community entirely (you'll still be able to play your existing games; this is the purpose of the system as opposed to the not-so-good ol' days where you'd be locked out of your account entirely). Unless the pre-order incentives are important to you, to be on the safe side you could cancel your pre-order now (doing so through Steam directly will return the cost to your Steam Wallet; if you instead want it returned to your credit card/PayPal account/etc. you'll need to submit a support ticket) and, if the final PC version is acceptable to you, buy the game from Nuuvem for around $36.60.
Maybe, then again my moral standards are very high. Call me naive but I expect companies to uphold standard buisness ethics, as in "do not screw the customer, do not lie about your product". Don't you think it would send a CLEAR message to the producer if it was in fact removed?
Actually belived my entire account would be banned for doing something like that. Thank you for describing the whole process if one would attempt a charge back. I'm gonna cancel my pre-order just to be on the safe side. If the game turns out to be a stellar PC port, one could always re-buy it at a later date.
Also thank you for the nuuvem link, saved a lot of money by buying it from then directly from steam.
I've seen the game running on 360, sure enough the graphics weren't that good, and several frame rate dips. But at least gameplay wise they've seem to heavily improved that aspect. Here's hoping it was true PC was their lead platform.
He is absolutely right. DS1 does look way better than DS2. DS1 on console does look better than DS2 on console (even equipment textures and the like are way blurrier than in DS1). And DS1 on PC will still look better than DS2 on PC.
I say it again: after having played DS2, the lighting changes should be the least of all concerns. Many areas in DS2 are just incredibly poorly designed. Bland rooms with obvious repeating textures on flat walls etc. That shit is everywhere in the game and that kind of stuff will be in the PC version as well. It really hurt the immersion for me.
DS2 on PC will look cleaner and sharper and it will obviously run better but that won't save it from visually being inferior to DS1 overall.
No, not any more. That's the entire point of the restriction-based punishment system -- it nullifies the need to lock people out of their accounts. That running afoul of the SSA would result in one losing access to their account entirely was one of the largest sticking points with Steam and so a system was put in place that allowed Valve to punish users while still allowing them to retain access to the games they'd previously purchased. Of course, it took Valve eight years to get to this point (the system was deployed early 2012), but that's Valve Time for you.
Rocket Scientist
Member
I'm always surprised at how often game companies seem to screw over gamers.
Just read the thread, they are so many people arm in arm defending From over this (or read the Joe MGS GZ review thread), that one big reason for why these companies screw gamers over and over, because gamers allow these things to pass.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
There is a definite lack of respect for the consumers from many game development studios today. What I can't understand is WHY? I mean, why is it so hard to just come out and say, in plain non-PR english: "Yeah, we had to scale back some detail from the early demos due to last gen hardware just not being up to snuff." Why is something like that simple straightforwardness so incredibly hard for them to admit? What negative could possibly come out of honesty and respect?
And on the PC version, why can't they just say that either:
A) "The PC version is identical to the console version model wise, but with better image fidelity and framerate."
or
B) "The PC version has the improved modeling and textures that the early demos showed, and is the superior version to the console game."
Why the half speak? Why dodge the issue? Why the lack of honesty? I just don't get it...
Fattony12000
Member
Well, here it is. All 30 seconds of it...lol. I could've sworn that I pointed my camera at that game being played far more than that!
Dark Souls II @ EGX2013 (TGS build)
Where were the PS3s?
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
The game looked exactly the same since E3 2013 to late January 2014. How exactly were we supposed to expect a downgrade?
Also, From keeps using the E3 trailer in the Steam page. That's false asvertising, plain and simple. They deserve all the shit they're getting.
Also, From keeps using the E3 trailer in the Steam page. That's false asvertising, plain and simple. They deserve all the shit they're getting.
It sounds like I'll be better off waiting 5 months for a retexture project, never mind 5 weeks.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
the dream is over.
I wouldn't say that before giving people a year or two to take 8k screenshots of Dark Souls 2.
Yup. but there are people still defending this to the max, saying it's the same game, same bosses and ignoring what the real issue and ignoring all the deceptive and misleading. in a normal case, we'll know that the game really look a like in like 6~4 months before the release, even if the game got a big downgrade or change (for better or worse) because developer will need time to finalize things before getting rids of bugs and print the game. From changed the game months ago but hid the changes from everyone and kept promotion the games as the early version. that what happened and it's clear false marketing and I'm not sure why some people completely refuse to understand the issue here.
and sadly they are not getting the amount of shit they actually deserve here, if this was EA, or Activation hundred of sites will cover the story and attack them days and nights but here From/Namco received a very soft ball for some reasons.
Far from a fair comparison, all of those screenshots are run at 4K resolutions than downsampled to 1080p.
Letting the consumers wallow in ignorance gives the publishers power.
Doubtful if the downgrade is indeed universal, as there are always going to be areas in dark souls 2 that are going to be completely gutted aesthetically vs Dark Souls 1.
yo. did you read the post ( #1435) where Namco PR pretty much confirmed that PC version will be same as the console
your thoughts on it?
Candescence
Member
Good grief, From goofed here, but I think people are being somewhat hyperbolic about their intention to mislead people, if there was any in the first place. Their half-hearted answer doesn't help, but the changes had a constructive reason behind them.
Also, Bamco's in charge of the marketing, not From, So the vast majority of the blame for the 'deceptive marketing' should be pointed at them instead. Which doesn't make it any better, but still. I find it confounding that everyone's beating up on the developer when it's probably the publisher who's actually responsible for the problem.
Also, Bamco's in charge of the marketing, not From, So the vast majority of the blame for the 'deceptive marketing' should be pointed at them instead. Which doesn't make it any better, but still. I find it confounding that everyone's beating up on the developer when it's probably the publisher who's actually responsible for the problem.
Raven77
Member
So if those shots are from the PC version, it essentially confirms 1 of 2 possibilities:
1. FROM is a terrible developer when it comes to the technical side of game creation. They couldn't get the game to run well on consoles, nor with the incredible power of modern PC's. Therefore, all versions were downgraded.
2. FROM / NAMCO outright lied in their "official statement" and the better looking version was really just a marketing tool all along.
FROM / NAMCO defenders, take your pick.
1. FROM is a terrible developer when it comes to the technical side of game creation. They couldn't get the game to run well on consoles, nor with the incredible power of modern PC's. Therefore, all versions were downgraded.
2. FROM / NAMCO outright lied in their "official statement" and the better looking version was really just a marketing tool all along.
FROM / NAMCO defenders, take your pick.
Candescence
Member
I'm inclined to apply Hanlon's Razor's here. Not every game dev studio has graphical tech wizards, for pete's sake, and this is an entirely new engine rather than an existing one built by people experience in HD graphics tech. Shit happens. If you actually think FROM intended to deceive everyone from the outset, you're an idiot.
As long as I can play more Souls at 60fps with modding capabilities, I'm happy.
As long as I can play more Souls at 60fps with modding capabilities, I'm happy.
There are changes, big ones too (look at the screens and videos in this thread and other threads)
The reasons are not the issue(even when From weren't really honest about them as well), the issue is From kept promoting the game as the early non downgraded version for months.
From is the IP owner not Namco, From is the developer not Namco. From is also the publisher in Japan. any footages and screen posted by Namco they are taken from From and any show the game (like TGS trailer) is done by From not Namco.
No one said they are Crytek, but From is the one who came and said "look at our new engine and graphics and lighting system", they are the one who showed what they showed then dropped everything. and if they didn't wanted to deceive then why they didn't show what the game really look like till until few weeks ago why kept using the early version to show the game when they know they are downgraded it?
This. If you want to objectively compare DS1 to DS2 then take screens of the PS3/360 versions and compare them to each other. Don't compare highly down sampled Dsfix DS1 screens to standard DS2 PC screens from Namco/FROM. I'm waiting for the PC version of DS2 and will only compare then.
legacyzero
Banned
While I agree from what I've seen so far, those shots you posted are WAAAAY unfair LOL
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
Trusting FROM caused this mess. No reason to trust them now.
copelandmaster
Member
I like how they are playing the game in front of large wall that implores the players to pre-order.
Who knows what devices those were are running on in that short vid, but this TGS footage is similar to the gamescom footage, and those turned out to actually be on PS3's
What a ridiculous comparison.
1). This seems like a gross simplification. Things like budget and development time are limiting factors, priorities differ across each team and each game, and technical ability reveals itself in gameplay as much as it does in things like lighting.
2). I'm not sure how this one even came to be. I mean, what's the logic? How does the absence of #1 indicate #2?
In any case, all you've done here is provide a classic example of a false choice.
Fucking lame.
'I haven't really noticed any framerate problems in this game... what are they complaining about?''
Jesus. Glancing over the downgrade... ''it still looks good'', ''I quite like it how it is''. Damn apologists.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
1) Indeed it does: EARLY BOSS SPOILER: http://i.imgur.com/dBAHJy2.gif Amazing hit detection.
2) Showing a perfectly functional demo with the advanced graphics and excellent performance at every opportunity from E3 to late January and still using it to promote the PC version.
Metalingus5150
Member
I don't know who the blame should be on.
I mean, From did release a lot screenshots of the game that are pretty representative of the game right?
I mean, From did release a lot screenshots of the game that are pretty representative of the game right?
Only starting from mid/late January.
Raven77
Member
1). Lighting systems are systems...they are not re-developed for each "level" or area, merely tweaked. So if anything, it takes MORE time to re-develop a second lighting system if your first one was too much for the systems to handle.
2.) Not sure how it came to be? If they cut everything out for technical reasons then number one is correct, if not, then they are still simply trying to deceive customers.
If you disagree with number 2, can you please explain to me why this fake screenshot is still on THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE (along with tons of other shots of the version they are NOT selling to people):
I'm waiting for the PC version, so I'm not watching that. I'll trust that it's an example of bad hit detection, but either way, I don't find this approach of nitpicking this poor texture or that instance of faulty gameplay at all persuasive.
Krusenstern
Banned
It looks so pretty.
Hydranockz
Member
When did the downgrade happen? Probably around then.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
You can go to the official japanese site and still find pre-downgrade screenshots in there.
Sure, they redesigned the entire lighting engine, design and level layouts a couple of weeks before release.
CountAntonius
Member
Did you hear when he was saying he's been meaning to get people to update the Steam page? I think the reality is we have been more critical of this games graphics than even Namco. Most people really don't care or notice the changes at all. None of the big players on Twitch or youtube have droned on about it even if some have acknowledged it. It really isn't a priority to most fans of the series. I know for me it's because I have shit else to do while waiting for the PC version and not knowing what it will look like exactly. In the stream yesterday nobody even cared what I was asking.
Hydranockz
Member
That does make a lot of sense considering that would be during their crunch period I'm sure.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
ALL THE SCREENSHOTS IN THE OFFICIAL SITE ARE PRE-DOWNGRADE.
http://www.darksoulsii.com/us/media.html
http://www.darksoulsii.com/us/media.html
Crunch period is for finishing details and optimization, not level design.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Screenshots in the Japanese website are from retail build
http://darksouls.jp/pc/index.html#products
Principate
Saint Titanfall
You know what you guys should all take away from this? Never pre-order a from software game.
Or don't pre-order full stop
Yes I saw that. Its unfortunate, but the entire time I've been preaching, 'hope for the best, expect for the worst.'
Even continually reiterating that I was just pointing out strong possibilities, but they shouldn't be taken as gospel.
Fattony12000
Member
THE PS3S ARE IN YOUR HEART.
I should have snuck round the back a little bit and scoped out the situation, if only I had thought of that at the time! I'll have to bear that in mind next time I'm out and about at one of these things.
#TGSmysteries
Yup. I hope people who feel this is whole debacle is bad practice have cancelled their preorders.
Krusenstern
Banned
I know I did. I certainly won't buy the PC version before I know how it looks.
Metalingus5150
Member
Double dippers?
Krusenstern
Banned
Maybe piracy and other crap excuses.
Maybe getting as many unpatient consuming addicts to double dip.