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GAF FOTY 2014-Fail Of The Year-Results- Winner of the 2014 shit sandwich goes to...

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I am glad that you're not only reading a really short post with one picture literally, but also holding it to such high standards of adequately defining a complex social phenomenon like an online misogynistic campaign! This is truly the important issue at stake and not the issue of how a movement managed to damage the industry and hurt and harm people within it in the course of several months.

When you are discussing something, there almost always is something that is more important than the thing you discuss, this does not make the discussion worthless in itself. In this case, someone wanted to know what gamergate is and explaining it inadequately is a problem that deserves to be discussed even if the thing that's being described has a bigger importance than the correctness of an explanation. Needless to say, but I of course admit that I'm quite OCD about that (i.e. exact descriptions in general), so for me it is important anyway.
 

AniHawk

Member
When you are discussing something, there almost always is something that is more important than the thing you discuss, this does not make the discussion worthless in itself. In this case, someone wanted to know what gamergate is and explaining it inadequately is a problem that deserves to be discussed even if the thing that's being described has a bigger importance than the correctness of an explanation. Needless to say, but I of course admit that I'm quite OCD about that (i.e. exact descriptions in general), so for me it is important anyway.

look at it this way.

if someone in the 1960s was threatening the lives of civil rights leaders with death threats to the point where they no longer felt it was safe in their own homes, do you think the people sending death threats would be against civil rights, or black people?
 
I said it in the voting thread but the death threats and general shiftiness of gamergate doesn't even deserve mention.

This is a small group of hateful individuals that hate people outside of their involvement with games. These people would be saying the same things to women who wanted to be involved in sports journalism or automotive design.

I hope people understand that gaming as a hobby doesn't encourage this kind of disgusting fringe of society as a whole.
 

Smurf

Banned
The frustrating part of gamergate is all the legitimate concerns it raised about the toxic journalist environment in gaming and particularly that private mailing list and individual developers use of media influences only for it to be clouded by people with motivations entirely irrelevant to gaming.
I wish at some point everyone using the topic as a vehicle for feminism/misogyny/marxism/bullying could have been cast to one side so we could concentrate on the matters actually important to gaming but sadly it wasn't to be.
 

UnrealEck

Member
No one mentioned Anita's video series? I guess technically it didn't fail since it gained huge infamy. But from what I watched, it seemed a lot of it was unreasonable and often absurd.
 

Henkka

Banned
No one mentioned Anita's video series? I guess technically it didn't fail since it gained huge infamy. But from what I watched, it seemed a lot of it was unreasonable and often absurd.

The first one came out in March 2013... And even then, and even if the videos were completely unfounded, the game industry's fail of the year is some individual's personal Youtube project? An individual who isn't part of the game industry?
 

Mael

Member
No one mentioned Anita's video series? I guess technically it didn't fail since it gained huge infamy. But from what I watched, it seemed a lot of it was unreasonable and often absurd.

I don't know, I feel like a group of people sending death threats over made up grievance and defending child pornography is higher on the list.
 

RionaaM

Unconfirmed Member
I said it in the voting thread but the death threats and general shiftiness of gamergate doesn't even deserve mention.

This is a small group of hateful individuals that hate people outside of their involvement with games. These people would be saying the same things to women who wanted to be involved in sports journalism or automotive design.

I hope people understand that gaming as a hobby doesn't encourage this kind of disgusting fringe of society as a whole.
Yeah, we should let them harass woman and hate them in peace. It doesn't only happen in games, so why are we even talking about it?

Oh, and we should totally defend the hobby and state it doesn't encourage the very same things it seems to be encouraging right now. Because that's the important thing to do, not exposing the assholes and giving their victims our sympathy (remember, no talking about that stuff!). No, once the last member of this terrible hate group has stopped doing the things they are doing then, and only then, we can start saying the hobby does in fact discourage these horrible actions. Until that happens, we can't honestly say that.

No one mentioned Anita's video series? I guess technically it didn't fail since it gained huge infamy. But from what I watched, it seemed a lot of it was unreasonable and often absurd.
A friend of mine told me this year he didn't like what little he played of Deus Ex. Can I nominate that, since it's too an unreasonable and absurd opinion?

C'mon now.
 
I said it in the voting thread but the death threats and general shiftiness of gamergate doesn't even deserve mention.

This is a small group of hateful individuals that hate people outside of their involvement with games. These people would be saying the same things to women who wanted to be involved in sports journalism or automotive design.

I hope people understand that gaming as a hobby doesn't encourage this kind of disgusting fringe of society as a whole.

It's easy for people to downplay how bad it is for gaming when they don't know much about it and/or aren't affected by it. The fact that the industry at large is still sitting on their hands while their colleagues are being harassed is a huge problem that bodes very badly for the future.
 

Parmenide

Member
It's both. As games are a means of expression and prominent form of mass media, discussion of these issues is important. If the medium is to evolve and mature, as well as reach out to a broader audience, we have to talk about social and political issues in the context of the medium and the community surrounding it. If we ignore these issues, they'll just continue to get worse.

I'll grant you that GG is also targeting more artsy, less traditional games like Depression Quest and Gone Home, but such games usually have more liberal bents to them.
Gaming is obviously influenced by the social context and yes, this means that we may see said influences in our beloved games, but that's not my point. We should keep things separated, we have an OT section for a reason, we can't discuss everything that could influence creativity.
Also I was expecting that someone would have avatar-quoted me... So, just to clarify my position: I'm neither pro or against GG, as a manga fan I simply like the mascot design.
 
Wait, aren't 3, 4, and 5 pretty much the same thing? Three way tie?

From a tech point it appeared sound, but didn't Destiny break people's hopes and dreams? Seems like the same ballpark to me.
 
Wait, aren't 3, 4, and 5 pretty much the same thing? Three way tie?

From a tech point it appeared sound, but didn't Destiny break people's hopes and dreams? Seems like the same ballpark to me.
Plus 2 is responsible for a lot of 5. But GamerGate still wins if you combine them right?
 

Sakujou

Banned
lol 2013 was the microsoft 180? it was only during the e3... never knew that people were sour even after a few months later... still....

about gamergate=this shows us, how "redneck" gamer are.
 
TwrLUkn.png


Is... is this for real?
 

m_dorian

Member
I still think the GG brouhaha was pointless. Didnt have to happen and showed a very stupid side of gaming enthusiasts, gaming media people and gaming journalists.
All sides are wrong, imho.
People should respect and tolerate other people's preferences as long as those are not abusive on others and that is what we should strive for.
On pure gaming issues i think Ubisoft had a very bad year, at least its last quarter was almost terrible.
 
Plus 2 is responsible for a lot of 5. But GamerGate still wins if you combine them right?

Good point about Ubi.

For GG, maybe. I know it was a major issue but I couldn't give two shits about GG; even when it was popping up on CNN. I honestly still don't know what it's really all about. I know Sarkesian pissed some people off with her videos and got some threats but that's as far as my knowledge about it goes. I avoid anything with that hashtag like it was Ebola.
 
Ubisoft worked hard to fail so much. I think they were robbed. There was no 'game' directly tied to GG so I don't think it should even qualify as a voting option. I mean, if we are including non published games topics to be voted on then why not just give the award to ISIS?
 
I still think the GG brouhaha was pointless. Didnt have to happen and showed a very stupid side of gaming enthusiasts, gaming media people and gaming journalists.
All sides are wrong, imho.
People should respect and tolerate other people's preferences as long as those are not abusive on others and that is what we should strive for.
On pure gaming issues i think Ubisoft had a very bad year, at least its last quarter was almost terrible.
I think you just agreed with all of the people on one of those "sides" :)

Sorry, but if you have ideas like that, you're #AntiGamerGate, if that's a real thing.
 
Gaming is obviously influenced by the social context and yes, this means that we may see said influences in our beloved games, but that's not my point. We should keep things separated, we have an OT section for a reason, we can't discuss everything that could influence creativity.

My entire point is that they shouldn't be kept separate. We should be talking about problematic trends in video games, we should be discussing how women and minorities are treated in the industry and in the fandom. If the conversation has nothing to do with video games, then yeah, keep it to OT. But that's very clearly not the case.

TwrLUkn.png


Is... is this for real?

That's not even the worst of it.
 
lol 2013 was the microsoft 180? it was only during the e3... never knew that people were sour even after a few months later... still....

about gamergate=this shows us, how "redneck" gamer are.

It was more then that. IT was the rumors leading up to the reviel of the ps4/Xb1, the bombshell that the rumors were true for xbox, with several rather stupid PR release/statements defending it.

E3 was just when the whole 'both are going to do it so its not bad' died, with the sony conference. Between that, and the price, MS was in a world of hurt, and the pre-ordered reflected it.

Having to massively 180 to save your own skin, and throw out damn near everything you spent the first half the year hyping was a pretty major thing.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Gaming is obviously influenced by the social context and yes, this means that we may see said influences in our beloved games, but that's not my point. We should keep things separated, we have an OT section for a reason, we can't discuss everything that could influence creativity.
Also I was expecting that someone would have avatar-quoted me... So, just to clarify my position: I'm neither pro or against GG, as a manga fan I simply like the mascot design.

Why not? Why can't we discuss this? What "bad thing" are you worried will happen?
 
There is no contest GamerGate is the worst gaming related shit show I've ever witnessed in 30+ years of gaming. I can't believe the cesspool hasn't dried up.
 

Euron

Member
Ubisoft released disappointing games and flat-out broken products but the worst that caused was a series of one time payments from consumers. Gamergate has ruined peoples' lives and hurt gaming as a whole, undoing many years of progress. It's so nonsensical and without a legitimate basis that I am very surprised that it has actually been an ongoing thing. Everyone needs to know that it's bullshit so it can be stopped before anybody is actually hurt physically from it.
 
This was definitely the right choice by far. I would say it's the worst fail in gaming this century so far and it wouldn't be a stretch at all to call it the worst in the history of gaming.
 

Lime

Member
@Yoshi: Call Kotaku and anihawk already already addressed the thing several times for you. Talking about whether a picture accurately encapsulate Gamergate is a waste of time. Let's just say that Gamergate do like some women/girls, but only those who fall in line and coddle their bigoted worldviews. If they rock the boat or question things or position themselves as individuals with claims requiring respect and recognition, then hell hath no fury like a Gamergater scorned.

I wish at some point everyone using the topic as a vehicle for feminism/misogyny/marxism/bullying could have been cast to one side so we could concentrate on the matters actually important to gaming but sadly it wasn't to be.

What are these matters that are actually important to gaming?

EDIT: Also, having a mailinglist is pretty much what every profession has. It's called communication and having a professional network.

No one mentioned Anita's video series? I guess technically it didn't fail since it gained huge infamy. But from what I watched, it seemed a lot of it was unreasonable and often absurd.

What things in particular did you find unreasonable and often absurd?
 

Zomba13

Member
The frustrating part of gamergate is all the legitimate concerns it raised about the toxic journalist environment in gaming and particularly that private mailing list and individual developers use of media influences only for it to be clouded by people with motivations entirely irrelevant to gaming.
I wish at some point everyone using the topic as a vehicle for feminism/misogyny/marxism/bullying could have been cast to one side so we could concentrate on the matters actually important to gaming but sadly it wasn't to be.
I've not really seen Gamergate discuss any actual legitimate concerns regarding the games journalism profession. The thing about a mailing list is pretty much a non-issue as it was never used as a way to conspire or censor something or as a coverup. It wasn't used for the secret journalism cabal to decide on which games are going to get low scores, it wasn't used as a way to silence developers or blacklist people. And what individual developers using their media influence?

And there is definitely room in games to have the discussion about feminism, female and minority representation (both in video games and in the industry), the misogyny from a vocal minority etc. (also, the thing Gamergate claims "SJWs" are doing is cultural Marxism)

Gaming is obviously influenced by the social context and yes, this means that we may see said influences in our beloved games, but that's not my point. We should keep things separated, we have an OT section for a reason, we can't discuss everything that could influence creativity.
Also I was expecting that someone would have avatar-quoted me... So, just to clarify my position: I'm neither pro or against GG, as a manga fan I simply like the mascot design.

I think if the social issues have relevance to videogames they should be discussed in the Gaming side. We should all be striving to make videogames a more accepting place both for the female and minority players and developers. Having more women make games isn't going to take away what games are already out there or stop more from being made. They thing that decides if a game is made is if it'll sell and if it has a market. Having more diverse people playing games means a bigger market which means more games and more different games. And why can't we discuss everything that can influence creativity? It's a discussion board so if someone feels it's worthy of a discussion someone will make a topic and the members will decide if it's worth posting.

Nothing bad will happen if we talk about women in gaming or feminism or wanting minorities to be treated fairly in games or the industry. Nobody will take your games away and instead we might get even more. SJWs aren't coming in to take over gaming and ban every game with a white male lead or games that let you kill women. That's stupid.
 

tanod

when is my burrito
What the fuck even is gamergate?

I went into that thread and I still have no clue.

Misogynistic assholes harassing women on the internet, sometimes with threats of violence and veiling themselves in some imaginary evidence of games journalism corruption to justify their harassment. More or less.
 

beril

Member
The frustrating part of gamergate is all the legitimate concerns it raised about the toxic journalist environment in gaming and particularly that private mailing list and individual developers use of media influences only for it to be clouded by people with motivations entirely irrelevant to gaming.
I wish at some point everyone using the topic as a vehicle for feminism/misogyny/marxism/bullying could have been cast to one side so we could concentrate on the matters actually important to gaming but sadly it wasn't to be.

Those are completely imaginary non-issues to begin with. The gaming press doesn't really have near enough power or influence for any real corruption to be worth it if they wanted to. The complaints I've seen from gamersgate pretty much amounted to outrage that journos and devs sometimes networked and have social lives. And come on, a mailing list? How truly toxic and despicable that a group of professionals should have a place to communicate with their peers.

There's a lot of bad gaming journalism out there, with crappy fact checking, click baiting and tons of pointless articles that's just regurgitating press releases, but if anything GG and people like Total Biscuit is attacking the people who actually try to do anything more than that.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
look at it this way.

if someone in the 1960s was threatening the lives of civil rights leaders with death threats to the point where they no longer felt it was safe in their own homes, do you think the people sending death threats would be against civil rights, or black people?

Now I am not too familiar with American history, but in the 1960s we are talking about civil rights not for people in general but just for black people, right? Then I'd say they were against civil rights for black people. Since civil rights are basic human rights, I'd also be fine with the notion of saying "against black people" (though it'd still be less precise), but that's really exclusive to basic human rights.
 

AniHawk

Member
Now I am not too familiar with American history, but in the 1960s we are talking about civil rights not for people in general but just for black people, right? Then I'd say they were against civil rights for black people. Since civil rights are basic human rights, I'd also be fine with the notion of saying "against black people" (though it'd still be less precise), but that's really exclusive to basic human rights.

the point is, if you're against people seeking equality for seeking equality, you're against the people who are being treated as not equal. that's it. full stop. if a group is targeting women who dare question the status quo because the status quo is sexist, then the group is sexist against women. no distinction needs to be made because it's all the same bullshit.
 

cerulily

Member
I don't see why people are bothering engaging with yoshi, I swear I've seen them trolling other parts of this board.

Good call on GG winning, what started as a troublingly ranting lie from an angry dude has turned into one of the biggest anti-progressive movements on the Internet. gamer gate may have originated in gaming, but it has very clearly become an anti-progressive or anti-inclusive movement for awhile now. Totalbiscuit has had bad run ins with individuals calling him out for saying shitty things even before gamer gate started, it's no shock he refuses to budge from it.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
EDIT @Anihawk: Is someone, who is against female quotas in jobs against women? Someone who is against male quotas against men? Being for or against (enforcing) equality in non-basic-rights does not equate being against whomever such an action could help. Being against enforcing a higher number of female protagonists for instance does not mean being against women either. Now, using extreme measures and attacking the opposing side personally, as well as mobbing them (as certainly has happened with Wu and Quinn) is inexcusable, but it does not mean one should just deliberately describe the motives wrong or overgeneralize.

I don't see why people are bothering engaging with yoshi, I swear I've seen them trolling other parts of this board.

I'd really like to see your definition of trolling. Besides the fact that I've not been trolling in here according to how I understand the word (i.e. not including serious discussion of something one is concerned about), what other parts of the forum do you think of? I almost exclusively post in the gaming-section, a handful of posts in the OT section at best and I think none in the community section. Anyway, no matter where, I'm certain I've not been trolling anywhere on NeoGAF.
 
I'd really like to see your definition of trolling. Besides the fact that I've not been trolling in here according to how I understand the word (i.e. not including serious discussion of something one is concerned about), what other parts of the forum do you think of? I almost exclusively post in the gaming-section, a handful of posts in the OT section at best and I think none in the community section. Anyway, no matter where, I'm certain I've not been trolling anywhere on NeoGAF.
I don't agree with all the points you've made in this thread, but you certainly aren't trolling. I appreciate the civil way in which you make your arguments, same with Anihawk.
 

antitrop

Member
He does have a small point.

All the people on the "pro" GamerGate side were people who don't actually play video games, they just hated that women were playing them.

That's not true at all. The movement may have been started by Adam Baldwin, who doesn't give the least of a shit about video games, but your statement is pretty ridiculous. The figureheads of the movement that are still trying to futilely push it forward have connections to gaming, (self-proclaimed) indie game devs, YouTubers, etc.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
EDIT @Anihawk: Is someone, who is against female quotas in jobs against women? Someone who is against male quotas against men? Being for or against (enforcing) equality in non-basic-rights does not equate being against whomever such an action could help. Being against enforcing a higher number of female protagonists for instance does not mean being against women either. Now, using extreme measures and attacking the opposing side personally, as well as mobbing them (as certainly has happened with Wu and Quinn) is inexcusable, but it does not mean one should just deliberately describe the motives wrong or overgeneralize.


A lot of the people in GamerGate have a history of misogyny and not just disliking feminist views. Mike Cernovich, the juicebro lawyer who has been a big name in the "movement" believes women should be treated like pets and trained. He also doesn't believe date rape exists. He has a history of this long before joining GamerGate. Milo, the BreitBart writer, is very much the same as well, that women have no place in tech and that they're all whiny and stupid etc. Wikipedia has his history on file.

Interesting thing about those two as well is that they also hate gamers, geeks and nerds and have bullied them for a long time but changed over night for this so called "movement."


It goes further as well. All of the "moderates" from GamerGate don't just dislike feminism or its views but downright hate women in general.

EDIT: I'd just thought I'd add more context since you're still searching for a distinction. I honestly cannot find one. They're world views are so narrow with how women should be treated that of course they would have problems with feminist views.
 

AniHawk

Member
EDIT @Anihawk: Is someone, who is against female quotas in jobs against women? Someone who is against male quotas against men? Being for or against (enforcing) equality in non-basic-rights does not equate being against whomever such an action could help. Being against enforcing a higher number of female protagonists for instance does not mean being against women either. Now, using extreme measures and attacking the opposing side personally, as well as mobbing them (as certainly has happened with Wu and Quinn) is inexcusable, but it does not mean one should just deliberately describe the motives wrong or overgeneralize.

you seem to believe there is a line. i really don't see it.

i don't know about hiring quotas (especially where males weren't being hired but needed to?), but actively turning away ideas, downplaying games with female focus, and turning off the possibility to more female-infused influences is dumb and wrong and bad for the industry.

in the 70s and 80s, the video game industry was like the early film industry. early films were made by stage actors and magicians and artists and a random assortment of people who never picked up a camera before because cameras never existed. from that we had a very creative and new industry from many different backgrounds. in the 70s and 80s, the people who got into game development were graphic artists, programmers, authors, and all other kinds of people from different walks of life. it's how we got pitfall and super mario bros. and mother. at a certain point, new designers were people who grew up playing video games. they had no other life skill to offer the industry. some became auteurs in a way anyhow (like michel ancel), but i think by and large the industry has condensed itself into a very samey kind of game design, especially on consoles and handhelds.

the industry should welcome different perspectives. it should bring in people with different kinds of upbringings and encourage people who are not included to become interested in the industry. this can be done by simply hiring those kinds of people who are qualified onto the job; it can be done by eliminating wage disparity and treat them like actual fucking people; it can be done by creating games with characters and stories only meant to appeal to one very specific group of people. who knows what other worlds and ideas are out there if we're telling half of the world to shut the fuck up?

and that's if i'm just looking at it in a 100% selfish view. i want better things and more things that are better. it doesn't upset me though. it baffles me that people would fight against progress like that, but what actually upsets me is that people send rape and death threats against women in particular for pointing out this huge disparity, for having pointed out this culture in the first place.
 
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