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[III-V]

his idea was ultimately rejected, because according to Aonuma "...if we have princess Zelda as the main character who fights, then what is Link going to do? Taking into account that, and also the idea of the balance of the Triforce, we thought it best to come back to this [original] makeup."

I agree that the Triforce needs to remain intact. There needs to be 3 main characters. Zelda, Link and Gannon all need to be intact.

Link can simply be a female.

A lot of people do not understand the Hero's Quest and its relation to LoZ, but there is literally nothing to keep link from being a female, even considering 'cannon'. Not all of the Link are the same individual.

 

[Nickle]

I expected them to have that attitude toward a female Link (I have the same opinion), but I'm disappointed if they would never make a game starring/co-starring Zelda. However, these things sometimes get lost in translation, and it's possible that Aunouma was only talking about making Zelda an optional protagonist in Breath of the Wild. In that case, it wouldn't make much sense to add her, but that doesn't discount the possibility of having her be a protagonist in a future Zelda title.

 

[MuchoMalo]

Aonuma literally just said that if Zelda is doing stuff and not getting kidnapped what the hell is Link supposed to do now? Christ.

Yes, because that's exactly what has happened in every Zelda game he's directed. She's just kidnapped at the start and never does anything. Totally. Every. Single. Time.

 

[axisofweevils]

If they want to stick with the classics, why in the fuck is Link right handed again?

https://twitter.com/jose_otero/status/742822320176128000

You use right hand to initiate attacks on gamepad.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Link can also be a Subrosian



The reason why is news.



Well I'm more responding to the quote than anything else. It makes it sound like Aonuma either is kind of sexist (where it would be unbalanced if there were more women than men) or doesn't really get what balance means

Hes saying balance based on the realms of the properties of Zelda. This has nothing to do with Zelda but more on what they already established as what characters represent the triforce.

Aonouma probably doesnt even know why people are arguing for a female Link if he truly believes this.

 

[A Link to the Past]

his idea was ultimately rejected, because according to Aonuma "...if we have princess Zelda as the main character who fights, then what is Link going to do? Taking into account that, and also the idea of the balance of the Triforce, we thought it best to come back to this [original] makeup."

I agree that the Triforce needs to remain intact. There needs to be 3 main characters. Zelda, Link and Gannon all need to be intact.

Link can simply be a female.

A lot of people do not understand the Hero's Quest and its relation to LoZ, but there is literally nothing to keep link from being a female, even considering 'cannon'. Not all of the Link are the same individual.

The Triforce is in so much need of being intact that Zelda and Ganon have literally been absent from entire games before. While I don't disagree that Link can be female, I do think that these games don't necessarily need Link, Zelda, and Ganon (or even just Link and Ganon).

 

[kewlmyc]

The Update makes it any worse. It reads as "fuck, I didn't expect this question and don't have a good answer for it".

They can make it up to me by making the next Zelda a game where the trio defies destiny and are all childhood friends though.

 

[The_Lump]

We could un-establish him as male. Shocking

But why should they? It's their character, who they established as male?

They aren't obliged to do something just heavyset some fans want it and, as per my post, they provided (ham-fistedly) their reasoning for why didn't do it.

 

[Valkerionseven]

Seems silly mostly cause female link is such an easy thing as to simply put "she" in some text given the character already looked female for years.

Oh well maybe next time. Seems silly thought with how little people seemed to oppose the idea.

 

[Not]

But why not have a female Link in this big new game? “You know there’s the idea of the Triforce in the Zelda games we make,” he told Kotaku. “The Triforce is made up of Princess Zelda, Ganon and Link. Princess Zelda is obviously female. If we made Link a female we thought that would mess with the balance of the Triforce. That’s why we decided not to do it.”

This is backwards as hell. It's your game.

Why is gender so goddamn important to our culture still

So Link can't be female due to arbitrary made-up fictional priorities, and Zelda can't be the main character because Link needs shit to do.

Got it, thanks Aonuma

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

Dumb reason and disappointing. I would rather have Zelda star in her own game than the first playable female to be the same person that's starred in the past 30 years.

 

[Mega]

The issue is that Aonuma gave a really bad reason that reflects poorly on his judgment in this respect, and suggests that the reason may apply to future titles. It is also not the first time they've come up with poor reasons for why a female character option does not exist.

It's unfortunate that he has to use poor, roundabout excuses because of so many online overreactions. He and the rest of the staff can't just be upfront and tell the truth: the creative team firmly believes that Link was and may possibly always be a boy and they simply do NOT want to make him a girl at this time (if ever).

And that's 100% okay if this is what they want to do with the series. People need to stop getting up in arms about this and demanding that a gender change MUST be enacted for this specific game series for whatever half-baked reasons as equally poor as Aonuma's answer.

 

[TheLight]

We could un-establish him as male. Shocking

But why? Why should they feel compelled to that? By that logic lets un-establish a lot of things that don't belong to us. Let's make bread a protein. I am all for having more diversity, but giving a character to option to Link still wouldn't even be enough. Nothing honestly will be in situations like this.

 

[Galang]

The updated comments actually make things worse... I hope the backlash causes them to change their plans a bit tbh.

 

[JimmyJones]

Glad they didn't bow to the pressure. It's like all this "James Bond should be black/gay/female" bullshit. People looking for things to complain about.

 

[A Link to the Past]

This is backwards as hell. It's your game.

Why is gender so goddamn important to our culture still

So Link can't be female for arbitrary made-up fictional priorities, and Zelda can't be the main character because Link needs shit to do.

Got it, thanks Aonuma

Seriously. Two guys and a girl is fine, but two girls and a guy? Shit, that's obscene

It's unfortunate that he has to use poor, roundabout excuses because of so many online overreactions. He and the rest of the staff can't just be upfront and tell the truth: the creative team firmly believes that Link was and may possibly always be a boy and they simply do NOT want to make him a girl at this time (if ever).

And that's 100% okay if this is what they want to do with the series. People need to stop getting up in arms about this and demanding that a gender change MUST be enacted for this specific game series for whatever half-baked reasons as equally poor as Aonuma's answer.

And what of the frankly trash-tier excuse for not having Zelda be playable?

Let's not kid ourselves, Aonuma is just playing the "excuses for why we don't have more playable female characters" mixtape.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Never in a million years could I ever imagine this would be an issue whatsoever.

Welcome to the internet in 2016!

 

[Wavebossa]

Seems silly mostly cause female link is such an easy thing as to simply put "she" in some text given the character already looked female for years.

Oh well maybe next time. Seems silly thought with how little people seemed to oppose the idea.

Eh... I think there is more to making a female character than a letter change

 

[jdstorm]

Can we at least agree that the reasoning behind Aonuma's decision for not including any female playable character was weak as soft shit?

You'd sturggle to come up with a more tone-deaf response from Nintendo that the one they gave.

The reasoning isn't "soft as shit" Nintendo is clearly of the opinion that Zelda games are about their 3 main characters (Link/Zelda/Gannon) and how they interact with each other. If Zelda took links role as Adventurer and Fighter, then why would link need to exist? How would Link fit into the story? No Gaffercomplaining about the reasoning has managed to offer an answer on that.

PS if any games publishers deserve a pass on Imagined Sexism it's SquareEnix and Nintendo who have been ahead of the curve on gender equality in games for 30 odd years

 

[Wuthering_Heights]

Seriously. Two guys and a girl is fine, but two girls and a guy? Shit, that's obscene

I know. We should make Ganon a female too. Because reasons.

 

[Brushguy Woodthreep]

Naturally, two men and one woman = balance in the Triforce. Just imagine if there were two women and one man instead. Whoa! Totally unbalanced!

 

[blankempathy]

People bitched about Linkle too though (not me though~). Honestly after Other M it's interesting just how great a love letter Hyrule Warriors is to the entire franchise.

A female Link would've been neat, but it's not remotely a deal breaker there isn't one. I can definitely take issue with the Zelda comment though; not every game has to have her kidnapped, and honestly at times like Wind Waker suddenly having Tetra/Zelda get kidnapped wasa detriment to the overall plot.

Given how intentionally un-Zelda Breath of the Wild is so far, I find it weird tradition is being given as the reason for Zelda not being playable.

I still remember that thread calling Linkle an airhead.

 

[- J - D -]

Aonuma's reasoning sounds wildly, incoherently dumb, but it's their game and if they never intended for the player to have that option, then it's their right.

Whatever. It's all a wash.

 

[Freshmaker]

Yeah. If they wanted to explain it how their specific version of reincarnation for all the Links and Zeldas means that Link can't be a girl and Zelda can't be a boy then I'd love to see it. The only problem is they don't say anything because can't think of any good reason why.

All they'd have to say is Link reincarnates as a male every time and that would be settled since they control the lore.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Naturally, two men and one woman = balance in the Triforce. Just imagine if there were two women and one man instead. Whoa! Totally unbalanced!

Aonuma probably thinks that if it's only one girl, the odds of the quest being impeded by "women's monthlies" is reduced

What a practical thinker

 

[civilstrife]

"Mess with the balance of the triforce"...

That's a new one...

So the balance of the triforce requires two males and one female?

 

[Henkka]

This is backwards as hell. It's your game.

Why is gender so goddamn important to our culture still

Yeah if only people would stop making a big deal about it.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Samus is defined by gender (for better or worse). They added her gender because it would be neat, her de-suiting is one of the most iconic things about the games, and (depressingly) Other M exists and is this really stupid allegory about motherhood

"vast bulk"

Some characters have been established as their respective gender and that is totally fine. The bulk of them actually have zero reason they need to be male or female besides "bruh we wanted a male character". I don't really get the issue with it. If they want a female lead in the series just make a female. In Mario they added Rosalina and now they use her in basically every game in the franchise. But literally she could be a guy and Mario and Luigi could be women and nothing would change. They just don't because they established MArio is a guy and Rosalina is a woman. Is that honestly a big deal?

 

[GatticusFinch]

I know. We should make Ganon a female too. Because reasons.

Two females? Check your fucking privilege broseph. Ganon is clearly gender fluid. Also, why are Link and Zelda both white? Also, why does Zelda come from a privileged, 1%er family? When will Nintendo release a game analyzing Ganon's struggles against an oppressive monarchy enslaving the proletariat?

Or we can let creators of content dictate that content.

 

[Dangansona]

3. People who want to act like swapping out the protagonist and main playable character is some kind of easy switcheroo clearly have no idea what it's like to have a creative team all come together to design, model, animate, voice, and write a ton of NPC dialogue around the playable character -- and that's before even getting to problems like de-gendering pronouns, implementing a "switchable protagonist" system, etc. To think Nintendo was going to do all this, mid development-cycle, because of internet rumors, was always foolhardy.

People aren't taking this quote in that context though even though that's clearly what it's supposed to be. For some reason his quote now is representative of his personal philosophy for all future Zelda titles and thus he is an embarrassment to gaming.

 

[MuchoMalo]

How would it have been sexist to feature a female option? I don't think you know what that word means.

Neither do you if you feel that Aonuma's sexist for this decision. Sexist may have been the wrong word, but I don't think that forcing devs to include women in games for the sake of publicity is noble or something we should be begging for. It's not progressive; it's exploiting the feminist movement. That's my opinion, though I know I'm pretty much alone in this.

 

[Slyfer]

So....having the gender-swap option automatically negates all your previous cherished memories, or the charm/identity of the presumably still available male link option?I just....I honestly don't see it.

Technically yes since the gender swapped Link would absolutely not be the same character who has appeared in all of the LoZ games since the late 80's. This female Link would be a lazy copy paste of Link's established identity with the same personality. You are essentially contesting the identity of Link who has existed since the late 80's and making him to be something he never was (female), thus disrespecting the origin and creation of the character. You can't have an established iconic character be two genders at the same time. By your logic we should have had a female Kratos or male Bayonetta by now since gender identify doesn't matter in gaming and these personalites/personas would work great if gender swapped.

Explain to me exactly how Link having a female option that you don't even has to play as would "deprive the character of their charm and identity." What about the character could possibly have to change to accommodate a gender options? What mannerism , personality traits or storylines could possibly be lost?

I answered the first part of your question above. The character wouldn't be Link anymore if his gender wasn't defined. His mannerism, personality traits and storylines would have to be completely different to accommodate his female alternate self for it to actually work. I don't think Nintendo is going to make a female Link rescue Zelda or even a male Zelda so it just wouldn't work in general. It's makes more sense to use an established female character like Zelda or a new one with a different storyline where Link isn't important in the story.

 

[A Link to the Past]

"vast bulk"

Some characters have been established as their respective gender and that is totally fine. The bulk of them actually have zero reason they need to be male or female besides "bruh we wanted a male character". I don't really get the issue with it. If they want a female lead in the series just make a female. In Mario they added Rosalina and now they use her in basically every game in the franchise. But literally she could be a guy and Mario and Luigi could be women and nothing would change.

Sure, vast bulk. But Samus is their lead female character (excluding gender-option characters). It feels all too unlikely that they just coincidentally decided that Samus needed to be defined by her gender in ways that her male counterparts are (usually the most we see in that respect is Mario getting embarrassed when Peach kisses his nose)

Neither do you if you feel that Aonuma's sexist for this decision. Sexist may have been the wrong word, but I don't think that forcing devs to include women in games for the sake of publicity is noble or something we should be begging for. It's not progressive; it's exploiting the feminist movement. That's my opinion, though I know I'm pretty much alone in this.

People are """"forcing"""" devs to do things because these are products, and also because they actually want this change to happen. People aren't simply screaming "women's lib!!" and demanding female Link or playable Zelda, they're doing so because it's the direction they want the series to go in. It's no different than people who hated TWW and wanted TP, or people who hated TP and wanted SS.

 

[Basketball]

nothing wrong with some tradition

 

[Not]

By that logic lets un-establish a lot of things that don't belong to us. Let's make bread a protein.

Sigh

You guys are killing me

It's a game. A made up fantasy game. The middle-aged dude with the reins thinks only dudes should be the hero. That's the end of it.

I'd love bread to have protein btw. Make it happen.

 

[Cindro]

"Mess with the balance of the triforce"...

That's a new one...

So the balance of the triforce requires two males and one female?

No. The balance of the Trifoce is power, wisdom, and courage. If Zelda was the playable character, she would likely have courage. Link would then need to have wisdom. This is obviously something they could do, but at that point it would be a role reversal just for the sake of it.

 

[Kuroyume]

Naturally, two men and one woman = balance in the Triforce. Just imagine if there were two women and one man instead. Whoa! Totally unbalanced!

You have to appeal to all groups.

Men = Link
Women = Zelda
Ganondorf = Pigs

 

[El Topo]

Dumb reason and disappointing. I would rather have Zelda star in her own game than the first playable female to be the same person that's starred in the past 30 years.

If they are so opposed to the idea of giving people the option to play as female Link, what makes people believe that they will make a big ambitious game with Zelda as the lead? The best one can hope for is something like Tingle's Balloon Fight, i.e. a meaningless shitty spin-off with little effort put into. Think about it for a second. Tingle has more games than Zelda. Tingle.

 

[Pau]

The reasoning isn't "soft as shit" Nintendo is clearly of the opinion that Zelda games are about their 3 main characters (Link/Zelda/Gannon) and how they interact with each other. If Zelda took links role as Adventurer and Fighter, then why would link need to exist? How would Link fit into the story? No Gaffercomplaining about the reasoning has managed to offer an answer on that.

If Zelda's moved beyond being a simple damsel in distress, I think we can find a reason for Link to exist if he isn't the playable character.

Hell Skyward Sword could have worked with you playing as Zelda doing everything before Link got to you.

 

[Wavebossa]

The reasoning isn't "soft as shit" Nintendo is clearly of the opinion that Zelda games are about their 3 main characters (Link/Zelda/Gannon) and how they interact with each other. If Zelda took links role as Adventurer and Fighter, then why would link need to exist? How would Link fit into the story? No Gaffercomplaining about the reasoning has managed to offer an answer on that.

PS if any games publishers deserve a pass on Imagined Sexism it's SquareEnix and Nintendo who have been ahead of the curve on gender equality in games for 30 odd years

So if there is a game where Zelda is also a fighter... Link wouldn't be able to fit in the story?

Coulda sworn Sheik was a thing.

 

[Omega Kirby]

We're never going to get Vaati in a 3D zelda game are we?

 

[GatticusFinch]

No. The balance of the Trifoce is power, wisdom, and courage. If Zelda was the playable character, she would likely have courage. Link would then need to have wisdom. This is obviously something they could do, but at that point it would be a role reversal just for the sake of it.

Oh, of COURSE the woman doesn't get wisdom. Of course. Thanks for mansplaining everything to me with your man-wisdom Link.

 

[Not]

Yeah if only people would stop making a big deal about it.

I meant in the direction that benefits females, who have been historically more oppressed and marginalized than males.

 

[jay]

Let's see...

Splatoon - Great (female default)
Pokemon X and Y - Good (male default?)
Pokemon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire - Good (male default?)
Animal Crossing: New Leaf - Great (no default, though super bad w/ race)
Animal Crossing: amiibo Festival - Great (no default?)
Animal Crossing: Happy Home Designer - Great (no default, race options)
Fire Emblem: Fates - Good (male default)
Fire Emblem: Awakening - Good (male default)
Super Mario 3D World - Goodish (multiple playable female characters, though one is locked until way later in the game; also main character is debatably Mario)
Captain Toad: Treasure Trackers - Great (Toadette is captured at first, but they turn the tables and have Toad get captured later and make her the lead; slightly problematic in that more levels have you play as Toad than Toadette)
Xenoblade Chronicles X - Good (not sure about default; didn't it come out that Elma was originally the star but was replaced by a gender-optional MC?)
Style Savvy: Trendsetters - Great (never played, but I presume it has plenty of female characters)
Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze - Okay (as you note, Dixie is only truly playable in multi-player)
Code Name S.T.E.A.M. - Okay (main character is male, and the gender ratio is 6-3 in favor of men)
Pikmin 3 - Good (shares lead character credit, but I like her)
Mario Kart 7 - Okay (aside from Mii, only female character options are Peach, Daisy, Rosalina, and Honey Queen vs. objectively male characters Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Bowser, DK, Toad, Wario, Metal Mario, and Shy Guy; subjectively male characters like Lakitu, Wiggler, and Koopa Troopa tend to be male by default when a gender is given, and when one is female, it's usually obvious)
Mario Kart 8 - Okay (the only original characters added from 7 to 8 are Toadette, Isabelle, Villager [who is male by default], and Wendy O. Koopa; most of the female character additions were different versions of existing characters, including Pink Gold Peach, Baby Peach, Baby Daisy, Baby Rosalina, and Cat Peach)
Mario Golf: World Tour - Okay (same issue as MK, most characters are male characters or generic enemies that usually default to male; without DLC, female players have only three choices in terms of female characters)
Mario Tennis Open - Poor (has a few playable female characters, but one of them is just Baby Peach; men meanwhile have 11 characters, with two generic enemies who default to male)
Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash - Okay (has better representation than Open did, significantly so; all female characters are original without any baby versions or whatever. It's 10 male characters, five female, and one generic)
Mario Party: Island Tour - Okay (2 out of 10 characters are female)
Fatal Frame: Maiden of Black Water - Great (haven't played it, but I am under the impression that it only stars a female character)
Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS and Wii U - Good (Significantly better than any Smash before it for representation. It still has MUCH more male characters, and many of the female characters are gender-option character. It does however at least have a gender-option character where female is the default)
Hyrule Warriors - Great (while Link is the de facto lead, there are a lot of female characters from which to choose, including a female main villain for the second time in the series' history if I recall correctly)
Fantasy Life - Good (not sure about default)
Yo-kai Watch - Good (as above)
Fossil Fighters: Frontier - Unsure
Bravely Default - Great (while the mainest character is male, the two female characters are great and are just about as important)
Bayonetta 2 - Great (for obvious reasons)
The Wonderful 101 - Okay (I like Wonder-Pink a lot, but she stands out as the "token girl")
Disney Magical World - Unsure
Puzzle & Dragons Z + Super Mario Bros. Edition - Unsure about P&DZ, and "Okay" for Mario (I believe that a lot of the characters, at least early on, are either generic enemies or Mario & Luigi)
Miis - A bit of a copout since Nintendo would actively have to be trying to be a jerk to not have playable female Miis but playable male Miis

I think with this list, the picture I get is that of all the games, only two -only- star a woman (Fatal Frame and Bayonetta). This is not to downplay games that have gender choices, but at the same time, you have so many games where the character is male, and that's your only choice.

Well you're not supposed to actually dig into things. As far as you know, Nintendo has a lot of leading ladies and there are a lot of women in high positions in the government.

 

[Mega]

And what of the frankly trash-tier excuse for not having Zelda be playable?

Let's not kid ourselves, Aonuma is just playing the "excuses for why we don't have more playable female characters" mixtape.

Yes, the excuses they're making are poor and they were fabricated for the people getting upset in threads like this one. The real answer is obvious: they don't want to do it at this time. If they came out and said that perfectly fine excuse, you would all still be upset. It's like a subset of gamers can't simply accept that a decision was made, live with it and move on.

I don't play Halo and a hundred other series because it's not for me. If a FF goes in a direction I don't like, I skip it. If LoZ maintaining that Link is a boy as he has always been as part of the story, lore, history of Hyrule, Nintendo backstory, whatever you wanna call it, maybe it's time to move on. These pointless protests are just that. Pointless. Stop bashing a dev over the head for not giving in (yes, giving in) to impulsive, rabid demands of irrational fans.

 

[Purple~]

To all the people saying they should just get rid of the whole triforce thing and get rid of link and turn zelda into a fighter character...

At what point do you keep changing stuff and it no longer even is a zelda game? What you people are saying they should get rid of is the backbone of the entire series. It sounds like you don't even want a Legend of Zelda game, you just want a different action adventure game with a female protagonist. Why not just play something like Horizon?

 

[Wavebossa]

Yes, the excuses they're making are poor and they were fabricated for the people getting upset in threads like this one. The real answer is obvious: they don't want to do it at this time. If they came out and said that perfectly fine excuse, you would all still be upset. It's like a subset of gamers can't simply accept that a decision was made, live with it and move on.

Maybe some of us would, I promise you some of us wouldn't (like me)


Eh, i'm not even upset now, just disappointed with the reasoning

Wow @ the overreactions here

but yeah he should have just said 'uhh we want male link. That's it'. And that's completely acceptable.

No arguments here

 

[Granjinha]

Wow @ the overreactions here

but yeah he should have just said 'uhh we want male link. That's it'. And that's completely acceptable.

 

[Boy Wander]

I still don't get why of all the shit that goes on in the games industry, Links gender is a battle worthy of much consequence. And I've pointed out twice already that women are basically running this entire E3 presentation front and centre. Yet not one person bitching about Nintendo being sexist has said a thing. Surely if the point is about equality and empowerment, seeing women being such an integral and prominent part of what is the ONLY presentation event that Nintendo is putting on at E3 would be much more significant an influence on any woman aspiring to get into the industry. The Link thing is an easy fucking target and frankly it's a bit embarassing to use it as your poster child for what's wrong with the industry when it comes to equality.

 

[III-V]

Technically yes since the gender swapped Link would absolutely not be the same character who has appeared in all of the LoZ games since the late 80's. You are essentially contesting the identity of Link who has existed since the late 80's and making him to be something he never was (female), thus disrespecting the origin and creation of the character. You can't have an established iconic character be two genders at the same time. By your logic we should have had a female Kratos or male Bayonetta by now since gender identify doesn't matter in gaming and these personalites/personas would work great if gender swapped. The character wouldn't be Link anymore if his gender wasn't defined. His mannerism, personality traits and storylines would have to be completely different to accommodate his female alternate self for it to actually work.

Link is not even Link in some of the games. It is not the same character. Different times and possibly worlds. It is simply a retelling of the Hero Quest involving "Link"...

Link could literally be anyone and the story remains the same.

A story like this is simply a universal myth and can take many shapes/forms.