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[Tomat]

I think there is always going to be a market for people who want to play meaty, high quality games on the game over your typical 99 cent "Cut the Rope" style Phone game, even as we move into the future. Until my Monster Hunters, Animal Crossings, SMT games, or any other handheld series I'm interested in start solely appearing on cell phones, I won't be interested. There are a lot of people out there who feel the same way.

There is a market for both audiences.

 

[Skilletor]

Yeah it's NEOGAF. We're all experts. Are you new here?

I'm neither! But you keep on spouting your expert opinions. They're making me smile.

 

[BigDug13]

I think there is always going to be a market for people who want to play meaty, high quality games on the game over your typical 99 cent "Cut the Rope" style Phone game, even as we move into the future. Until my Monster Hunters, Animal Crossings, SMT games, or any other handheld series I'm interested in start solely appearing on cell phones, I won't be interested. There are a lot of people out there who feel the same way.

There is a market for both audiences.

Just like there will always be a market for people who want to do their computing on a PC. They aren't going anywhere. But their market share certainly is dropping slowly.

 

[mantidor]

People expect it to cost 99 cents, so not much.

And this is another important point, some say handheld quality games will get to phones eventually, but at what price? The worst thing about the market of mobile phones games is the amount of shovelware, and the entry price of the average game doesn't help, the audience has been made to expect such abysmally low prices, trying to get a brand new high budget game on mobile phones is financial suicide.

 

[Cipherr]

Congrats, you're now playing a port of an iOS game on your PC which validates my point about the quality of the game.

I wasn't commenting on the quality of the game, but I do own it, and I have played it. And its got nothing on the likes of KI, Mario3D, RE:R, Rayman Origins, Gravity Rush and Golden Abyss.

And yet, S&S sits among one of the best mobile phone games of all time. Remember the discussion isnt that there arent quality games on phones. There are, I own many, including S&S that I bought through a Humble Bundle for Android months ago, the dicussion is that compared to the library of dedicated consoles, overall they don't equal or surpass dedicated mobile gaming.

 

[Naked Snake]

Please tell me what games I can get for my Note 2 that compare favorably to games on my 3DS.

I never play games on my Note 2 (I tried a few of the popular ones, hated them). I play on my 3DS every day.

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

Those are the games that were initially iOS exclusive that are easily on par with your average handheld game but are better suited to the iPad. You might not like Knights, I loved it and finished it twice.

The point I was making is that most of these are pretty far and between, and tend to be available elsewhere. Unlike a vast majority of handheld games, which is the main reason for them to exist and why people like them.

It isn't about them being good or bad games, but the kind of games people want.

I hope that made sense, since I actually agreed about your point of liking both mobile and handhelds at the same time.

 

[RM8]

Just like there will always be a market for people who want to do their computing on a PC. They aren't going anywhere. But their market share certainly is dropping slowly.

Not disappearing, though. 3DS is doing GBA-ish, isn't it? No one was saying GBA was done for.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Look at the console charts over the last 10 years. Gamers have proven again and again that they'll buy shit en masse. Don't underestimate the size of the casual gaming crowd, they're just as happy swiping as they are tapping and for the serious gamers like me there's some incredible niche titles on iOS that I personally cannot miss out on.

you're 100% right, but I think the casual market and hardcore market are both powerful, even if the hardcore are obviously less

 

[Ollie Pooch]

While puzzle games and the like are great on phones (and generally very cheap or free) many other genres are just completely watered down, unplayable shallow shit. I'm yet to find a smartphone or tablet game that comes even close to the best of Nintendo or Sony. it's a shame standards have dropped so far but that's the reality, sadly.

 

[Fusebox]

I should clarify to be fair, my defense and praise of iOS games like the ones I listed is all with consideration to the iPad, not the iPhone. iPhone screen is too small for me and I don't like playing touch games on it for the same reason I don't like playing touch games on my Vita.

iPad on the other hand is awesome for the games I've been discussing. Vita + iPad killer combo. I'd be shitty if I didn't have both those game libraries.

 

[Tomat]

Just like there will always be a market for people who want to do their computing on a PC. They aren't going anywhere. But their market share certainly is dropping slowly.

This isn't new news, so I have to ask: Is there a point to this thread? What I'm reading from the OP and some other folks in here is nothing but poking and prodding at handheld fans along the lines of "Your market is dying! How do you feel about that? Haha!"

 

[BigDug13]

Not disappearing, though. 3DS is doing GBA-ish, isn't it? No one was saying GBA was done for.

True, but that PSP market certainly hasn't jumped on Vita. So overall the market has still shrunk.

 

[RM8]

I should clarify to be fair, my defense and praise of iOS games like the ones I listed is all with consideration to the iPad, not the iPhone. iPhone screen is too small for me and I don't like playing touch games on it for the same reason I don't like playing touch games on my Vita.

This is funny, I can't game on my tablet at all because it's so huge, while I tolerate some games on my phone.

True, but that PSP market certainly hasn't jumped on Vita. So overall the market has still shrunk.

Indeed, there will never be a repeat of DS+PSP. I mean, DS alone became the best selling gaming device ever released.

 

[TwiztidElf]

The premise of this thread is flawed. It should be Can smartphone games compete with dedicated handhelds?

Don't get me wrong, I like gaming on my iPad, and there are some decent games, but the quality and depth of the games is laughable compared to the 3DS.

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

True, but that PSP market certainly hasn't jumped on Vita. So overall the market has still shrunk.

I feel that the Vita's software doesn't appeal to people or it is compared with iPad while 3DS isn't compared as much.

At least that's what I make out of few people I've met.

DS surpassed PS2??

 

[Tomat]

The premise of this thread is flawed. It should be Can smartphone games compete with dedicated handhelds?

Don't get me wrong, I like gaming on my iPad, and there are some decent games, but the quality and depth of the games is laughable compared to the 3DS.

Either that thread title (speaking in terms of quality and content), or "Will developers eventually abandon the smaller handheld market in favor of the much larger cell phone market?

 

[SteeloDMZ]

Playing games on an iPhone or iPad is uncomfortable unless you are doing some basic stuff like tapping and swiping.

 

[Derrick01]

True, but that PSP market certainly hasn't jumped on Vita. So overall the market has still shrunk.

We're missing a lot of the games we got on PSP too though. I'm still waiting for my GTA and God of War and various japanese rpgs and srpgs. Instead we got half assed AC and COD versions.

 

[Cipherr]

I should clarify to be fair, my defense and praise of iOS games like the ones I listed is all with consideration to the iPad, not the iPhone. iPhone screen is too small for me and I don't like playing touch games on it for the same reason I don't like playing touch games on my Vita.

iPad on the other hand is awesome for the games I've been discussing. Vita + iPad killer combo. I'd be shitty if I didn't have both those game libraries.

I can completely agree with this. I don't want phone gaming to go anywhere, I'm perfectly ok with it. I was only commenting on my personal views of the differences in the library between the two branches of gaming.

Its weird, it was very easy to have these conversations last gen when PS360 got all the meaty stuff, and Wii got Carnival games and whatnot. Everyone seemed to see that situation for what it was. It wasn't that the Wii wasn't capable of running good games, but the publishers didnt put them there... soo.......

We all bought PS360's. Sure there was a great Wii game here and there, but nothing in comparison to the stream of great PS3 and 360 games. There was a clear divide there.

The dedicated handhelds userbases will shrink. That much is assured, the mobile phone games will be 'good enough' for many, just as the Wii sold 100m to people that felt its library was 'good enough'. But death of the traditional handheld?

Nah.

 

[zruben]

I use my phone for bite size gaming.

It doesn't provide even close to the experiences as the 3DS and Vita do for me.

basically this.

 

[Warm Machine]

Why do companies keep making games for handhelds, then? It's almost like they're profitable.

Sorry but if -right now- phone gaming would be such a gold mine then 3DS wouldn't be drowning in 3rd party exclusives, even Vita is getting a lot of indie support for some reason. Install base doesn't equal profit, it just doesn't.

If you could get a response from Jackson here he could probaby give you proper numbers.

Supercell is making $1,000,000 a day with Clash of Clans IAPs. The market, and developers see those numbers and that is where they want to be. This is why far more games are found and being developed on iOS than there is on 3DS. The store allows near anything and the ecosystem, if you can get noticed, can reward you very well.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Animal Crossing
Pokemon

There's the door.

 

[Tomat]

Animal Crossing
Pokemon

There's the door.

Animal Crossing would make a really good cell phone game (although the small screen of the iPhone would kind of suck for it). It's not a game that requires hours of play in one go, it's not graphically intensive at all, the player input is all very touch friendly, and it's a social game. It's kind of amazing that they have introduced a mobile phone version of it.

 

[Derrick01]

If you could get a response from Jackson here he could probaby give you proper numbers.

Supercell is making $1,000,000 a day with Clash of Clans IAPs. The market, and developers see those numbers and that is where they want to be. This is why far more games are found and being developed on iOS than there is on 3DS. The store allows near anything and the ecosystem, if you can get noticed, can reward you very well.

They're all running around with their heads cut off, hoping they can be the next ultra 1% who's making most of the money on the app store instead of the 99% who make barely anything, if they make any profit at all.

Not a very healthy way of running a business. It's pretty much the same goal as the AAA industry (to be the next COD), only on a smaller scale as they're not putting tens of millions into each game. They're still chasing a level of success that realistically is not there and won't be there for almost all of them.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Animal Crossing would make a really good cell phone game (although the small screen of the iPhone would kind of suck for it). It's not a game that requires hours of play in one go, it's not graphically intensive at all, the player input is all very touch friendly, and it's a social game. It's kind of amazing that they have introduced a mobile phone version of it.

Well, it's exclusive to the 3DS, and it sells hardware. Whether it would work on a cell phone or not is pretty irrelevant.

 

[Tomat]

Well, it's exclusive to the 3DS, and it sells hardware. Whether it would work on a cell phone or not is pretty irrelevant.

I know, I'm just point out that it's a handheld game that is meaty, of high quality, and it could still work on a smartphone. I don't think that is true for a lot of handheld games, so it's interested to me to see one that would work well.

They're all running around with their heads cut off, hoping they can be the next ultra 1% who's making most of the money on the app store instead of the 99% who make barely anything, if they make any profit at all.

Not a very healthy way of running a business. It's pretty much the same goal as the AAA industry (to be the next COD), only on a smaller scale as they're not putting tens of millions into each game. They're still chasing a level of success that realistically is not there and won't be there for almost all of them.

Makes me wonder if the market will get so full of shit at some point that people will simply lose interest.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

I know, I'm just point out that it's a handheld game that is meaty, of high quality, and it could still work on a smartphone. I don't think that is true for a lot of handheld games, so it's interested to me to see one that would work well.

I thought the original thread of argument is that the smartphones were getting games of a similar quality? I've genuinely yet to see any, I visit the Android store regularly and nothing grabs my eye.

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

If you could get a response from Jackson here he could probaby give you proper numbers.

Supercell is making $1,000,000 a day with Clash of Clans IAPs. The market, and developers see those numbers and that is where they want to be. This is why far more games are found and being developed on iOS than there is on 3DS. The store allows near anything and the ecosystem, if you can get noticed, can reward you very well.

Getting noticed is already really hard work. There are horror stories from many iOS developers here and in Touch Arcade.

 

[Derrick01]

Makes me wonder if the market will get so full of shit at some point that people will simply lose interest.

It happened with Atari and to Facebook games to a smaller degree. There's no reason to believe it won't happen again. People's ability to put up with garbage and lack of real, meaningful innovation always wears out after a while.

 

[Tomat]

I thought the original thread of argument is that the smartphones were getting games of a similar quality? I've genuinely yet to see any, I visit the Android store regularly and nothing grabs my eye.

I'm not arguing for or against anything with that Animal Crossing statement, it's just an observation...

 

[Warm Machine]

They're all running around with their heads cut off, hoping they can be the next ultra 1% who's making most of the money on the app store instead of the 99% who make barely anything, if they make any profit at all.

Not a very healthy way of running a business. It's pretty much the same goal as the AAA industry (to be the next COD), only on a smaller scale as they're not putting tens of millions into each game. They're still chasing a level of success that realistically is not there and won't be there for almost all of them.

I'm not going to say that isn't true, but it is just as true that a Vita or 3DS game will sell 5 figures at best. At least success, and lets face it $1000 a day for most devs through sales and IAPs would be a big success, is possible for devs anywhere in the world on the platform.

Free to Play is here to stay and it is only going to become more common.

 

[Warm Machine]

Getting noticed is already really hard work. There are horror stories from many iOS developers here and in Touch Arcade.

Absolutely. Visibility is 100% of everything. Reviews, previews, forum talk, and all is nothing compared to front page on a storefront.

I know a dev who made two iOS games for 75k each and sold about 75 copies each. I know from my own experience that storefront placement make a massive difference.

 

[KaYotiX]

99% of phone games are horrible IMO. I haven't bought a game on my phone in 2 years. Dedicated handhelds to me are the way to go as long as they keep making great software

 

[Synless]

Aside from the buttons, do people even see the differences of the quality of the games on dedicated consoles and the one of the smartphones?

The best games on phones are still inferior to the many "good" games on handhelds. So yes, I see the difference a thousand times over.

 

[Snakeyes]

Besides what others said ITT, have you noticed that price may be holding dedicated handhelds back? Just look at the price of dedicated Nintendo handhelds throughout the years:

GB - $89.99, bundled with Tetris
GBC - $79.99
GBA - $149.99, dropped to $99.99 after less than a year
DS - $149.99, really took off after the $129.99 Lite revision
3DS - Launched at $249.99, still costs $169.99 ($199.99 for the XL) two years after its release.

It's not at all surprising to see expensive handhelds losing out to smartphones and tablets in the eyes of the mainstream consumer when the latter offer a lot more at a comparable price point. I'm no expert, but I feel that a sleek, affordable handheld (think $129.99 or less) with competitively priced ($0.99 - 29.99) software could be a very appealing product even in today's market.

 

[Cipherr]

Aside from the buttons, do people even see the differences of the quality of the games on dedicated consoles and the one of the smartphones?

I most certainly do. As would any other gamer even remotely approaching core. Its extremely apparent.

99% of phone games are horrible IMO.

To be fair, this is the truth of any gaming device ever pretty much. The vast majority of a library will always be ass. Its how frequently there are quality titles, and how great those 'quality' titles are that matters. Dedicated gaming devices see higher highs, and a better stream of quality titles over smartphones. I place the reasoning for that completely on the lap of Publishers and Developers and not on the phones themselves.

Absolutely. Visibility is 100% of everything.

One of the big bonuses of brick and mortar locations imo. Shelf space is a thing.

 

[Moosichu]

Guacamelee takes this thread's lunch and farts on it.

Fixed for clarity.

 

[commish]

No, dedicated handhelds can't compete. Smartphone games are more convenient, cheaper, and, really, just as fun, if not more-so in the sense that there are many games that work amazingly well on my phone but wouldn't work as well on my 3DS.

I love my 3DS and all, but the best games on the system for me - EO, Fire Emblem, RE, etc - could be easily replicated on a phone with touch.

Bottom line: If every 3DS and Vita game were released on iOS, "bad touch" controls and all, 3DS and Vita would die. The reverse is not true. Dedicated handhelds will still be around as long as they are giving gamers something that they can't get anywhere else, but if devs start cross-releasing games (and I think that will become more likely as we move away from the old monetization systems of last gen), then it'll be hard to see a successor to 3DS/Vita doing well unless they completely reinvent themselves.

 

[CosmicQueso]

It's not a zero sum game.

 

[dacuk]

Buttons.

Lack of a built-in, dedicated joypad / analog and physical buttons condemns phone gaming to either simplistic games or a nightmare in control attempts.

I.E. any fighting game in mobile platforms

 

[Mario]

They're all running around with their heads cut off, hoping they can be the next ultra 1% who's making most of the money on the app store instead of the 99% who make barely anything, if they make any profit at all.

Not all devs/publishers in the mobile market are "running around with their heads cut off".

Indeed, I'd argue the amount of companies applying a sophisticated business led strategy in mobile is much, much higher than those operating in the handheld space.

There are of course developers chasing an imaginary pot of gold on every platform.

 

[hypostatic]

I thought gaming on my iPad was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I mean, I LOVED gaming on it. So much so that I convinced two others to get an iPad for that reason. Until I got a Vita.

They're simply not comparable. Other than SE remakes, and the odd big title here and there (GTA, S&S, a few of the boardgames), it can't even compare.

WipEout 2048
Uncharted: GA
Sly 4
Gravity Rush
Persona 4: Golden
Disgaea 4
THE PSP CATALOGUE
THE PS1 CATALOGUE

Soul Sacrifice and Muramasa are coming out soon. There's more gaming in that list than I will *ever* have time for. The iPad is a truly spectacular machine. But I never realized how much I hate touch controls until I went back to buttons.

 

[Moosichu]

No, dedicated handhelds can't compete. Smartphone games are more convenient, cheaper, and, really, just as fun, if not more-so in the sense that there are many games that work amazingly well on my phone but wouldn't work as well on my 3DS.

I love my 3DS and all, but the best games on the system for me - EO, Fire Emblem, RE, etc - could be easily replicated on a phone with touch.

Bottom line: If every 3DS and Vita game were released on iOS, "bad touch" controls and all, 3DS and Vita would die. The reverse is not true. Dedicated handhelds will still be around as long as they are giving gamers something that they can't get anywhere else, but if devs start cross-releasing games (and I think that will become more likely as we move away from the old monetization systems of last gen), then it'll be hard to see a successor to 3DS/Vita doing well unless they completely reinvent themselves.

No, it couldn't.

Also, those games aren't being released on iPhone and for many reasons. One them being that your much more likely to make your money back on PSN than you are on the AppStore. Another being, "bad touch" controls would make those games bad. Meaning no-one would buy them, let alone for $40. This is the niche that the handheld market fills.

 

[fluffydelusions]

I don't currently have a handheld as I'm holding out for a black 3ds but I don't like playing phone games unless I'm either a) waiting in line, b) on the toilet, or c) on the bus/train. Other than that I don't find them that fun really, just time wasters tbh.

 

[Cerity]

Maybe when devs start delivering games that are of higher quality than your typical flash game. I've spent a huge amount of hours playing games on my phone but along with the lack of solid games, touch controls are atrocious for anything other than simple gestures.

 

[Qassim]

Phone games distract me for about 5 minutes.

Games on dedicated handhelds hold me for my full 35 minute train journey, for multiple reasons:

1) Better ergonomics for playing a game
2) Better controls for playing a game
3) Not sucking the battery life out of a device i'll be relying on through the day
4) Generally higher quality games, but I suspect smartphone games will eventually catch up in regards to money invested in them by developers.

To me, it is like comparing a tablet to a games console. Tablets can play games, and there are 100 million iPads alone out there already, but that doesn't mean they're a good replacement for console gaming, just like a smartphone isn't a good replacement for dedicated handhelds, not yet at least.

 

[commish]

No, it couldn't.

Also, those games aren't being released on iPhone and for many reasons. One them being that your much more likely to make your money back on PSN than you are on the AppStore. Another being, "bad touch" controls would make those games bad. Meaning no-one would buy them, let alone for $40. This is the niche that the handheld market fills.

Uh... you know, right, that there are smartphone games that make over $2m a day? Granted, that's the exception and not the rule, but there are definitely many others that are making a really nice profit. There are just so many ways to monetize your games on a smartphone vs Vita/3DS. Going forward, I can't say for sure that a developer would make its money back on a handheld faster than it would on a smartphone.

Touch controls can prove a challenge in some games, but there are games of every single type on smartphones already. They can be made to work.

 

[bee]

in terms of gaming quality, most definitely yes

if your talking pure sales numbers, especially in the future, no way

 

[Alchemy]

I play regularly on my Vita and 3DS. I also have a ton of emulators and free/cheap Android games on my phone that I never touch. The quality difference is simply massive, I give very few shits about gaming on my phone.