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[Salaadin]

Im behind on things.. not sure why this game is such a popular topic all a sudden. I remember seeing the art months ago and thinking it looked awful. Whats the big deal??

Jason Schreier from kotaku wrote a few questionable pieces on the Sorceress (implying it was sexist design) which prompted a response from George Kamitani (The artist) which had some people call Kamitani a homophobe which then prompted an apology from Kamitani and then an apology from Jason Schreier and large discussions on whether or not the Sorceress was a sexist design and whether or not Dragons Crown is the best example to use as the basis for a videogame sexism discussion when the Sorceress is simply an over exaggerated character design in a game loaded with over exaggerated characters designs.

And now an artist from Gearbox compared the Sorceress design to someone a juvenile delinquent in 5th grade would do.

 

[Yopis]

Moxxi's boobs are pretty big for a more realistic style. Huge-ish, actually. Plus, if you put enough money in her tip jar, she'll do a little half-hearted stripper dance for you. Not to mention pretty much everything she says to you is a sexual innuendo. I think people are being very selective about their targets in this rush of righteous indignation.

Maybe western game bias? Agree with what you said. Guess borderland 2 got a pass.

 

[sublimit]

Wut? Liefeld's shitty Capitan America chest looks as bad as the arms of that dwarf and the legs of the amazon.

So you are saying the art of this thing...

is on the same level with this...?

Right...

 

[Dark Octave]

We don't know if she protested or not about the artstyle in the company. A lot of this stuff gets overriden by the director anyway.

This is true. Good point.

 

[SteeloDMZ]

So you are saying the art of this thing...

is on the same level with this...?

Right...

That is what I'm saying. One looks as awful as the other.

 

[DigitalOp]

No, is not Gearbox, is one person.

If I got hired as a community manager for Microsoft and said Apple sucks on a message board, does that mean that Microsoft said Apple sucks? No. If there was a PR with the Gearbox logo at the top, then it would be an official statement from the company. This isn't.

People are lol fucking ridiculous.

The problem with this statement is that we crucified Adam Orth for the exact same shit.

There is no focus in any of these white knight causes. Its just hang the next sucker up and move on.

If gamers are gonna fight for a cause, It needs to be unified across the entire spectrum.

You can't condemn the Dragon's Crown Sorceress but give a pass to Bayonetta, Dead Or Alive Series or Moxxi

 

[LiK]

The problem with this statement is that we crucified Adam Orth for the exact same shit.

There is no focus in any of these white knight causes. Its just hang the next sucker up and move on.

If gamers are gonna fight for a cause, It needs to be unified across the entire spectrum.

You can't condemn the Dragon's Crown Sorceress but give a pass to Bayonetta, Dead Or Alive Series or Moxxi

I think people forget Mai from KoF exists. The latest iteration is all tits even when she's just in idle animation. No anger about that.

 

[SolidSnakex]

No.

That'd be Lara Croft. And it was for the same reasons (tiny waist and large breasts). Of course that ended up turning her into the most visible and popular female character ever in gaming.

 

[FairXchange]

I was always interested in Dragon's Crown. But now with all this controversy and misplaced outrage, I'm guaranteed to buy it.

 

[YouEnjoyMySelf]

She has a silly opinion and Kotaku is a rag as usual.

 

[Omegasquash]

A person that works in the industry pokes juvenile fun at another person in the industry in a demeaning way. Sounds like a person I'd not want to spend time in the same room with, but whatever.

 

[KillerTravis]

The problem with this statement is that we crucified Adam Orth for the exact same shit.

There is no focus in any of these white knight causes. Its just hang the next sucker up and move on.

If gamers are gonna fight for a cause, It needs to be unified across the entire spectrum.

You can't condemn the Dragon's Crown Sorceress but give a pass to Bayonetta, Dead Or Alive Series or Moxxi

The character art on those games is not even close to how bad this is.

 

[Blueblur1]

"Uh, these are gorgeous women with heaving breasts."

Watched this episode yesterday. Hilarious.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Because Gearbox are soooooo much better at character design, of course.

This is one guy, like, but if he thinks this strongly about this issue you'd think he'd be more concerned about fixing character design under his own roof.

 

[googleplex]

I just... can't understand the people who leap to the defense of the art in this game at all. It's like they don't even have any perspective on what they're defending. If you think their portrayal of an obese woman disqualifies anyone at Gearbox from making a comment and Tiny Tina and the Siren with some cleavage showing are the same as the sorceress with her proportions, clothing, enhanced physics chest, and her staff shoved between her ass cheeks... there's really nothing to be said here that wouldn't be a complete waste of time.

It's because the art in this game is fan-fucking-tactic. The characters are overblown and exaggerated and most people can understand that without putting some sort of contrived sociological spin on it.

God save us from overreactionary zealots looking for a target.

 

[Alienous]

So which game did this Gearbox 'artist' work on? The stolen Borderlands one? Or the shitty Aliens: CM one?

... unless you're Rockstar Games, Naughty Dog or Valve (maybe, maybe also Platinum Games) you are not good enough to ridicule another person's work.


This WHOLE issue is over exaggerated, but a Gearbox artist will not be taking the moral high ground on this debate.

 

[SmithnCo]

Can't believe this obviously exaggerated style is the source of this much drama.

 

[DigitalOp]

Because Gearbox are soooooo much better at character design, of course.

This is one guy, like, but if he thinks this strongly about this issue you'd think he'd be more concerned about fixing character design under his own roof.

Thank you. The biggest plate of humble pie has been served.

 

[LiK]

It's because the art in this game is fan-fucking-tactic. The characters are overblown and exaggerated and most people can understand that without putting some sort of contrived sociological spin on it.

God save us from overreactionary zealots looking for a target.

they also fail to see how the characters look within the exaggerated fantasy world of the game. When a ton of shit is going in, the extra animation only adds to the fluidity and movement of the characters even if they look ridiculous to them. People should look up more gameplay footage and not just a handful of gifs that focus only on her.

 

[0xCA2]

I'd just like to say that, looking through her portfolio, it's clear she's a good artist,

 

[Coxy]

Funny thing is more guys found out about it from it and are interested in the game now. Kinda similar to those people who protest a movie for some content and end up giving it more publicity.

this entire thing

 

[Uncle Rupee]

That is what I'm saying. One looks as awful as the other.

Superheroes' anatomy may be exaggerated, but I don't think Liefeld was going for the same level of exaggeration as Kamitani. The dwarf and other characters aren't trying to look realistic at all.

 

[BossLackey]

I don't understand this. I really don't. I feel so bad for the artist. I read his statement on the matter and he seemed very self aware, intelligent, and forthright. I view his art as art and I actually think it's pretty good. It's very exaggerated, which is subject to your own taste, but I would never in a million years think that his artwork would create a stir, let alone a torrent. People need to get over it and stop pretending like they're offended.

 

[APF]

You can say whatever you like, but people shouldn't act shocked when there's an extreme negative reaction to it.

If only some people were able to extend this logic to people having an "extreme negative reaction" to other forms of expression. Instead, it's the sign of a creeping Orwellian nightmare.

 

[Atomski]

Jason Schreier from kotaku wrote a few questionable pieces on the Sorceress (implying it was sexist design) which prompted a response from George Kamitani (The artist) which had some people call Kamitani a homophobe which then prompted an apology from Kamitani and then an apology from Jason Schreier and large discussions on whether or not the Sorceress was a sexist design and whether or not Dragons Crown is the best example to use as the basis for a videogame sexism discussion when the Sorceress is simply an over exaggerated character design in a game loaded with over exaggerated characters designs.

And now an artist from Gearbox compared the Sorceress design to someone a juvenile delinquent in 5th grade would do.

So the comment is correct then? Cause when I think of 5th grader art "over exaggerated" is a key element..

 

[10k]

And who the fuck is gearbox to be hating on other developers after releasing trash like aliens or using publisher money to fund Borderlands 2 instead of aliens? Gtfo.

 

[Guntank]

Superheroes' anatomy may be exaggerated, but I don't think Liefeld was going for the same level of exaggeration as Kamitani. The dwarf and other characters aren't trying to look realistic at all.

Maybe because they aren't meant to look realistic?

 

[Daingurse]

"Uh, these are gorgeous women with heaving breasts."

hahaha, made my morning. Love me some Always Sunny.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

So which game did this Gearbox 'artist' work on? The stolen Borderlands one? Or the shitty Aliens: CM one?

... unless you're Rockstar Games, Naughty Dog or Valve (maybe, maybe also Platinum Games) you are not good enough to ridicule another person's work.


This WHOLE issue is over exaggerated, but a Gearbox artist will not be taking the moral high ground on this debate.

Wait so people who dont work on games like most Gaffers can ridicule others work (happens all the time, in every thread) but a person in the industry cant, unless he works at the right company? Bullshit.

I dont agree with the opinion in the OP AT ALL, but the person has a right to it.

 

[meltingparappa]

That is what I'm saying. One looks as awful as the other.

This is a Kojima level troll. Well played.

 

[cutmeamango]

That is what I'm saying. One looks as awful as the other.

This is how we know whose opinions should be reflected upon for more than a second.

 

[Guntank]

also people are missing the point that the artist doesn't represent gearbox, she just does background art.

 

[-MB-]

Maybe because they aren't meant to look realistic?

Nor is Dragon's crown.

 

[Sylvrfonic]

Has anyone sorted out a way to show support for Kamitami outside of forum posting?

 

[CookTrain]

also people are missing the point that the artist doesn't represent gearbox, she just does background art.

It is a little odd that she chose this particular work to speak out against though, beyond even the output of Gearbox themselves. It comes across as a little strange.

You can't be under the umbrella of the creators of Duke Nukem Forever, whether you worked directly on it or not, casting these aspersions and not raise a few eyebrows.

 

[LiK]

Wait so people who dont work on games like most Gaffers can ridicule others work (happens all the time, in every thread) but a person in the industry cant?

I dont agree with the opinion in the OP AT ALL, but the person has a right to it.

I think it's the way she worded her comments. It's no different than when that Blizzard designer said "fuck that loser" in response to Diablo III being criticized by the founder of Blizzard North. She works in the industry and she should know better.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

Maybe because they aren't meant to look realistic?

I'm not hating on Kamitani's style. I'm just saying you can't compare Liefeld's hand-drawn diarrhea to something that isn't even trying to be realistic.

 

[Pyrrhus]

And who the fuck is gearbox to be hating on other developers after releasing trash like aliens or using publisher money to fund Borderlands 2 instead of aliens? Gtfo.

We need to be really clear here. This is not an official corporate line from Gearbox. This is something one of their artists said on her on time, in a non-official capacity. There are plenty of things to think Gearbox is terrible for but this is not one of them.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Has anyone sorted out a way to show support for Kamitami outside of forum posting?

Buy Dragon's Crown and Muramasa Rebirth. That's really the best way to show support for his art.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Please spare us your exaggerations and the drama.You made a comment on the quality of her work and i replied.

Sorry but you're the one making a huge issue out of 1 line in a post that was a couple of paragraphs long and then creating an argument over misquoting me and taking what I say out of context.

Saying afterwards that "we shouldn't judge the quality of her artwork" when you yourself said "she's better than anything Kamitani has drawn" is hypocritical to say the least.

I said I don't see how the quality of her artwork is relevant to the topic at hand (largely targeted at posters just saying "Ha! She sux!") However my response to you was both relevant as a response to your post, and to the topic in hand given I establish how her characters represented what she said about good female character design and how I agreed with her given I saw her artwork as better for it.

That was a separate point that you made and i left it out because 1) to avoid confusion and 2) because it's so subjective that a discussion about it is pointless.

How is "I think x is better. This is why I think x is better relating to what Shaylyn says about female character design" a separate point?

My original point (in the first post you quoted me) was that on a technical level she's an inferior artist compared to someone like Kamitani therefore if she wants to get better she should be more acceptive to styles that she may not like if they are of a higher qualitythan hers.

In your previous quote you said me believing female character design was stronger when it showed a mix of body types and facial detail (not all flattering) along with an attire that exists to express their character as opposed to show their flesh first and foremost was to subjective it would be pointless to argue (you know, the basis of this topic). Well a person's appreciation of art-style is completely subjective and in a case where she clearly doesn't find a style to be appealing (largely down to it exploiting the female form) it's incredibly condescending to say she should adopt it to improve.

 

[Guntank]

Buy Dragon's Crown and Muramasa Rebirth. That's really the best way to show support for his art.

are there any artbooks?

 

[Hot Coldman]

So the comment is correct then? Cause when I think of 5th grader art "over exaggerated" is a key element..

It's open to interpretation. I don't like over-exaggerated features in art much, I think it looks pretty gross 99% of the time and I don't think Dragon's Crown is any different. But there are ways to do that right, and some of the background behind why characters like the Sorceress look the way they do is interesting. I saw a recent explanation (which I sadly can't seem to find right now) which showed how all of Vanillaware's games have a necromantic character- all of them have huge breasts, and the general reasoning for this was that it's a metaphor for fertility; giving life to the dead. Hell, in the Sorceress art she's cradling the head of a skeleton like you would a baby. It's certainly more unique and interesting an approach than "man with ancient tome".

I think it all looks pretty weird! Like Tycho from Penny Arcade said recently, nearly everyone in this game is a fucking mutant. But at least they contextualise their shit. That has to be pretty unique in games.

 

[Alienous]

Wait so people who dont work on games like most Gaffers can ridicule others work (happens all the time, in every thread) but a person in the industry cant, unless he works at the right company? Bullshit.

I dont agree with the opinion in the OP AT ALL, but the person has a right to it.

Simply, if the person is being hypocritical, it voids their personal opinion. Gearbox have designed women in a similar way, 100% non-satirically, so they have no good cause to take the high ground. Viewed as an independent, anybody's comments are fair enough. But this artists affiliation with Gearbox, and the fact that they work in gaming, should be enough for them to hold their opinion back. It's extremely unprofessional to mock another persons art, and I doubt that this person wanted to refuse their paycheck after seeing the first renders of Mad Moxxi.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

I think it's the way she worded her comments. It's no different than when that Blizzard designer said "fuck that loser" in response to Diablo III being criticized by the founder of Blizzard North. She works in the industry and she should know better.

Of course she should know better, her wording was horrible and I completely agree. I just have a problem when people think artists in the game industry arent allowed criticize game art, but random internet poster can. Its terribly hypocritic.

 

[Kung Fu Grip]

I'm starting to think american developers are so use to dominating the games market nowadays that any type of quality japanese games that comes around gives them a fear of the past. Thus you have these dumb ass comments about Drangon's Crown lately.

Can't wait until suicides when The Evil Within is released.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

So which game did this Gearbox 'artist' work on? The stolen Borderlands one? Or the shitty Aliens: CM one?

... unless you're Rockstar Games, Naughty Dog or Valve (maybe, maybe also Platinum Games) you are not good enough to ridicule another person's work.

This WHOLE issue is over exaggerated, but a Gearbox artist will not be taking the moral high ground on this debate.

BL2 background art and some freelance stuff for Valve.

Simply, if the person is being hypocritical, it voids their personal opinion. Gearbox have designed women in a similar way, 100% non-satirically, so they have no good cause to take the high ground. Viewed as an independent, his comments are fair enough. But his affiliation with Gearbox, and the fact that he works on games, should be enough for him to hold his opinion back. It's extremely unprofessional to mock another persons art, and I doubt that this guy wanted to refuse his paycheck after seeing the first renders of Mad Moxxi.

She doesn't make character designs for Gearbox. She might not even know who makes the character designs for Gearbox. She's a background artist who makes map props. Moxxi was created before she was even employed at Gearbox.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

Buy Dragon's Crown and Muramasa Rebirth. That's really the best way to show support for his art.

That's what I'm doing. Buying the PS3 and Vita version of this and getting Muramasa Day one.

 

[Skyzard]

It has the right amount of muscles but not enough grey and brown for him.

 

[sublimit]

Buy Dragon's Crown and Muramasa Rebirth. That's really the best way to show support for his art.

Art and gameplay mechanics are two different things though.

I'm not going to buy Dragon's Crown not because i find Kamitani's art offensive (in fact i really like his art) but because i'm getting tired of 2D games in general.

 

[abstract alien]

Wow...of all the devs, Gearbox said this? I can't remember one thing I've actually liked from them, both art and gameplay wise. I remember what I hate though.