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[Takamura-San]

Do muscles = homoerotic to you? Because they're not DOING anything homoerotic, I have to wonder if it's because they are all strong men and that might be what you equate with homoeroticism.

No, there isn't.

The first thing I thought of were brothers clowning around, so nope?

Three men in close proximity automatically makes something homoerotic? I don't see the dwarfs flirting or anything?



Are these women acting homoerotic?

this picture is not more or less homoerotic than your avatar. Maybe it just makes you uncomfortable and you're projecting.

Not really.

Unless you are implying something about body builders.

Nope.

They have their shirts off, how does that make it homoerotic?

Does that mean wrestling is homoerotic? Call me blind, stupid, whatever, sorry, I'm just not seeing it.

Batman and Robin, and Batman Forever were called homoerotic and this is way beyond that.

Coupled up with this:

It seems that Mr. JASON SCHREIER of kotaku is pleased also with neither sorceress nor amazon.
The art of the direction which he likes was prepared.

Calling these conclusions far reached is delusional.

 

[Aaron]

Nothing homoerotic on this pic. right....

You must think the painting of the Sistine Chapel is homoerotic because there are plenty of muscled naked dudes on that. Fully frontal nudes, unlike this restrained piece. The political correctness movement has so sanitized people's perceptions that they've forgotten art wasn't always abstract versions of Star Wars characters.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Kamitani's first name is George?

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

Think how many clicks they got from a 1 paragraph article. It spawned new articles that got more clicks. Jschreier stick with the investigating

 

[ultron87]

The pic on its own isn't necessarily homoerotic but when combined with the comment towards Jason it can easily be read to suggest that. But apparently that was a mistranslation and not the actual intent.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Let me clarify something. I don't think Kamitani needed to apologize for anything - especially not his art - but I am glad he apologized for what many, me included, considered to be a homophobic joke.

On Tuesday, I apologized for calling him a 14-year-old, which was inappropriate on my part. I still believe that the sorceress is a juvenile, harmful piece of art. You're entitled to disagree. I find it hard to believe that anyone can see that GIF and not see why people think it's an example of sexual objectification, but there's no point in trying to drag on the same arguments over and over again.

I'm glad this discussion reached him. I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards, where hordes of people have taken offense at the idea that someone might not be happy with a female character that's presented as a jiggling sexual object. But there's nothing I can do about that.

It's fine to say the sorceress is not to your taste. It's not okay to lump sexualization in with the genuinely long lasting, damaging effects of gender stereotyping and enforced gender roles. You can say the art is gross, disgusting, ugly, etc, and thats fine, but you continue to call it harmful.

 

[Pyrrhus]

The pic on its own isn't necessarily homoerotic but when combined with the comment towards Jason it can easily be read to suggest that. But apparently that was a mistranslation and not the actual intent.

Even if it was, it was a pretty mild joke.

 

[Red Liquorice]

Exactly. Is my avatar homoerotic too?

Of course.

Homoerotic doesn't necessarily mean it has to involve men getting it on, or an implication of that - it can just be the fetishization, sexualisation or just simply the display of the male physique. Which is why sports and such are inherently homoerotic.

 

[Akainu]

Now Schreier should apologize so we can wrap this up and move on.

That would require humility.

 

[JWong]

Should've did a Kamiya.

 

[Jac_Solar]

Success.

Acknowledgement of the problem, and an understanding that criticism isn't an attempt to censure him.

I think most of this criticism is an attempt to censure him.

 

[erpg]

Feels good to be vindicated.

 

[RMI]

Batman and Robin, and Batman Forever were called homoerotic and this is way beyond that.

Wait, what? So people have idiotic opinions about Batman and Robin and that makes the dwarf drawing homoerotic? I mean, if that's you're story and you're sticking with it...

 

[Teknopathetic]

"I'm glad this discussion reached him. I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards, where hordes of people have taken offense at the idea that someone might not be happy with a female character that's presented as a jiggling sexual object. But there's nothing I can do about that."


You called it Lolicon Fantasy.

 

[Nags]

Think how many clicks they got from a 1 paragraph article. It spawned new articles that got more clicks.

Exactly. Just feeding the beast.

 

[GekigangerV]

Kamitani's first name is George?

It's probably really Jouji, which sounds like the Japanese pronunciation of George. Much Like George Morikawa from Hajime no Ippo fame.

 

[Coxy]

Let me clarify something. I don't think Kamitani needed to apologize for anything - especially not his art - but I am glad he apologized for what many, me included, considered to be a homophobic joke.

On Tuesday, I apologized for calling him a 14-year-old, which was inappropriate on my part. I still believe that the sorceress is a juvenile, harmful piece of art. You're entitled to disagree. I find it hard to believe that anyone can see that GIF and not see why people think it's an example of sexual objectification, but there's no point in trying to drag on the same arguments over and over again.

I'm glad this discussion reached him. I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards, where hordes of people have taken offense at the idea that someone might not be happy with a female character that's presented as a jiggling sexual object. But there's nothing I can do about that.

you might have some points and interesting thoughts but none of that really matters because of your body.

 

[Kouichi]

I agree with the others who have said that Kamitani shouldn't be apologizing. This whole debate was stupid from the start.

 

[jett]

The problem is, he thinks what he did was right. Shock me Schreier, and bury the hatchet

Someone admitting he was wrong? ON THE INTERWEBS?

That'll be the day.

 

[Domstercool]

The pic on its own isn't necessarily homoerotic but when combined with the comment towards Jason it can easily be read to suggest that. But apparently that was a mistranslation and not the actual intent.

I guess we all have different views on it then.

I personally would have found it more insulting if the art was a normal man/group of men, but because it's so over the top and in the same style as the character with huge boobs, I took it as "well if you don't like playing as woman with big boobs, how about men with big pecs and biceps"?

You know, pretty much like Space Marines and stuff. I don't think he was digging at sexual preferences in someone, but more the fact that it's a girl, and the stereotype is that gamers want to play as males. (just look at all over the news for that evidence)

That doesn't make it gay or homophobic, but then again, I wasn't the target person. I'll still not fully understand.

 

[C_V]

Personally speaking, I don't think anyone who draws such a male physique with that level care could be seen as homophobic. Though I guess I'm used to seeing bara art that my friend likes to link me every so often, and those usually have similar levels of care put into it.

 

[OverBlood 3]

CURSE MY GENITALS! I hate being a man.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I'm glad this discussion reached him. I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards, where hordes of people have taken offense at the idea that someone might not be happy with a female character that's presented as a jiggling sexual object. But there's nothing I can do about that.

You should step back and read some posts (particularly by thebaroness and Devolution) to get a better idea of why people are upset about this. They've both tried to explain why your argument is potentially harmful.

 

[DarkKyo]

I don't really see how to not take it as negative intent. There isn't a way to interpret it that isn't "Don't like these character designs? You must want these muscly dudes."

That sounds like a light-hearted joke. If someone got offended by that then they are just pathetic.

 

[Alfredo]

I wanna see more sweet dwarf pictures. Those guys look pretty cool.

 

[erpg]

Let me clarify something. I don't think Kamitani needed to apologize for anything - especially not his art - but I am glad he apologized for what many, me included, considered to be a homophobic joke.

On Tuesday, I apologized for calling him a 14-year-old, which was inappropriate on my part. I still believe that the sorceress is a juvenile, harmful piece of art. You're entitled to disagree. I find it hard to believe that anyone can see that GIF and not see why people think it's an example of sexual objectification, but there's no point in trying to drag on the same arguments over and over again.

I'm glad this discussion reached him. I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards, where hordes of people have taken offense at the idea that someone might not be happy with a female character that's presented as a jiggling sexual object. But there's nothing I can do about that.

Well, I'm glad you posted the gif again in a new article, hypocrite.

And as an FYI, you began the whole toxic discussion with your absolute bullshit, inflamatory 3 sentence 'article'. You set the tone, and you're continuing to do so.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Retroactive statements of intention are now apparently immune to skepticism. :O

 

[Yjynx]

Let me clarify something. I don't think Kamitani needed to apologize for anything - especially not his art - but I am glad he apologized for what many, me included, considered to be a homophobic joke.

On Tuesday, I apologized for calling him a 14-year-old, which was inappropriate on my part. I still believe that the sorceress is a juvenile, harmful piece of art. You're entitled to disagree. I find it hard to believe that anyone can see that GIF and not see why people think it's an example of sexual objectification, but there's no point in trying to drag on the same arguments over and over again.

I'm glad this discussion reached him. I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards, where hordes of people have taken offense at the idea that someone might not be happy with a female character that's presented as a jiggling sexual object. But there's nothing I can do about that.

aah no - your very first article clearly trying to make him explain himself and apologise for it. and why are you complaining recently instead of back then when the sorceress is first showed?

 

[Jac_Solar]

yeah, you see what you did was misquote even what he said. You're putting words into the guy's mouth. might as well paraphrase it as "Don't like tits, you're a FAG." You'd make a great game's journo, have you thought about it?

I think the picture tried to imply that there's a double standard; exaggerated male forms is ok, but not female. Boobs are exaggerated with females, muscles are exaggerated with males. Both are considered sexy/appealing. If a female character has exaggerated attributes, it's not logical to say that the male counterpart should have a big penis. Penises aren't sexualized, or considered sexy/appealing in the way boobs are. The male equivalent is muscles.

 

[JDSN]

I'm glad this discussion reached him. I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards, where hordes of people have taken offense at the idea that someone might not be happy with a female character that's presented as a jiggling sexual object. But there's nothing I can do about that.

Care to show point of that mainly toxic discussion you speak of? Maybe female gamers explaining how they feel patroniced by your views? Or the guy explaining the the art might have some source of inspiration beyond "I lovee tits" or maybe it was that evil former Game for Windows writer? Once again, you called the guy a 14 year old and called it lolicon fantasy...even tho im sure you dont know what that term means.

 

[-PXG-]

Let me clarify something. I don't think Kamitani needed to apologize for anything - especially not his art - but I am glad he apologized for what many, me included, considered to be a homophobic joke.

On Tuesday, I apologized for calling him a 14-year-old, which was inappropriate on my part. I still believe that the sorceress is a juvenile, harmful piece of art. You're entitled to disagree. I find it hard to believe that anyone can see that GIF and not see why people think it's an example of sexual objectification, but there's no point in trying to drag on the same arguments over and over again.

I'm glad this discussion reached him. I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards, where hordes of people have taken offense at the idea that someone might not be happy with a female character that's presented as a jiggling sexual object. But there's nothing I can do about that.

No one is mad at you for not liking his art. People dislike your click bait sensationist bullshit.

Also, cut the white knighting. Women don't need some random gaming journalist to start a crusade and tell them what to be offended by.

Homophobic art? Ask gay men what they think, if they even care yo begin with. Please sit the fuck down

 

[SmokyDave]

Let me clarify something. I don't think Kamitani needed to apologize for anything - especially not his art - but I am glad he apologized for what many, me included, considered to be a homophobic joke.

On Tuesday, I apologized for calling him a 14-year-old, which was inappropriate on my part. I still believe that the sorceress is a juvenile, harmful piece of art. You're entitled to disagree. I find it hard to believe that anyone can see that GIF and not see why people think it's an example of sexual objectification, but there's no point in trying to drag on the same arguments over and over again.

I'm glad this discussion reached him. I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards, where hordes of people have taken offense at the idea that someone might not be happy with a female character that's presented as a jiggling sexual object. But there's nothing I can do about that.

You do not understand what a 'sexual object' is, and as such your continued usage of the term is irresponsible.

 

[GrizzNKev]

Kotaku proves their worth yet again!

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

After some decent articles we get this rubbish. "harmful", ugh.

Always one step forward two steps back with Kotaku.

 

[abadguy]

It's a pity he had to surrender and apologize thanks to that shithole of gaming "journalism" rediculus article.

Makes me fucking sick to be honest. Kamitami is a far better man that i would be in the same situation, as i would have gone full Kamiya on that idiot. I honestly have 0 respect for Kotaku or any of the so called "game journalists" ( more like fucking internet trolls) that work there.

He basically called the guy a 14 year old and pretty much accused the art of being borderline pedo and he's getting the apology? This is why i love the responses they got from Kamiya and David Jaffe. Those were right on the money, as was Kamitami's first response.

 

[durrrrrrrrrr]

I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards,

it's toxic because you opened the discussion by flinging insults (ironically, like a 14 year old) and using words you don't know the meaning of.

you got your web traffic, i won't be falling for it again.

 

[Takamura-San]

Retroactive statements of intention are now apparently immune to skepticism. :O

But it was a miss-translation.

And if it wasn't it was a harmless joke.

 

[Omegasquash]

Let me clarify something. I don't think Kamitani needed to apologize for anything - especially not his art - but I am glad he apologized for what many, me included, considered to be a homophobic joke.

On Tuesday, I apologized for calling him a 14-year-old, which was inappropriate on my part. I still believe that the sorceress is a juvenile, harmful piece of art. You're entitled to disagree. I find it hard to believe that anyone can see that GIF and not see why people think it's an example of sexual objectification, but there's no point in trying to drag on the same arguments over and over again.

I'm glad this discussion reached him. I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards, where hordes of people have taken offense at the idea that someone might not be happy with a female character that's presented as a jiggling sexual object. But there's nothing I can do about that.

Though I don't agree with your opinion, I appreciate you coming on here to say that. To the bolded...I'd like to point out that that's not all the Sorceress is, any more than depiction of overly muscular males.

Yes, she's sexualized, but sexuality is in the eye of the beholder. I'M sexualizing her, in this case. I'm sure that there are folks out there that could sexualize the extremely muscular dudes in the game too. I'm also sure that there are folks out there that are attracted to women that find it unattractive. It's a two way street.

The Sorceress is just like all other characters in the game...she beats down fools with what she does best, magic (I assume). If she were a helpless princess stuck in a castle, I think I'd agree more with your opinion.

Also, homing in on her ignores the other aspects of the game completely. She's one part of it. Not a small part, but a part, and not the whole. Big gifs of jiggly boobs gives the impression that that's what the game is about. Sort of like how homing in on women in bikinis is what the beach is about, when it isn't that way at all for everyone. Some, sure. All? No way.

 

[Moral Panic]

It's fine to say the sorceress is not to your taste. It's not okay to lump sexualization in with the genuinely long lasting, damaging effects of gender stereotyping and enforced gender roles. You can say the art is gross, disgusting, ugly, etc, and thats fine, but you continue to call it harmful.

Do you want to get into an argument about studies again? You make it sound as if it is clear that it isn't harmful which simply isn't the case. To reply to you from our previous conversation:

Now who's misrepresenting people's statements? I was saying that the lowered self-esteem effects people feel when exposed to beautiful people are not unique to women. Men and women alike have problems with body image and both feel inadequate when compared to idealized versions of their sex. The problem is not with sexualization, but body image, a larger problem in society. The studies I linked on beauty and self esteem were for both men and women.

Why should it matter whether it is unique to women or not? All that matters is that it causes harm, which the study showed and you do not deny.

Edit: Oops forgot to add. The sexualization studies tested women by having them play games with sexualized female leads, non sexualized female leads, and women who played no games, then had them do surveys. They did not have groups that played games with sexualized male leads and non sexualized male leads. Then they didn't have male groups that were tested against all five of the same groups again. Then compare what impact that had on both genders (just like the gender stereo type and enforced gender role studies). If the effect caused the women severe, long lasting effects, such as impacting their earning potentials, then I could see the point.

The study wasn't to measure the impact on men. It was to measure the impact of the two options for leads - sexualised female and non-sexualised female on women. It showed that sexualised females had negative effects on the women, aka harm. It didn't prove that this harm was long term though so I'll give you that. Having men there or not having them does not have any impact on the study's results.

 

[Fersis]

Kotaku became

Theres nothing wrong with it though.

 

[bone_and_sinew]

"I'm glad this discussion reached him. I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards, where hordes of people have taken offense at the idea that someone might not be happy with a female character that's presented as a jiggling sexual object. But there's nothing I can do about that."

You could stop writing inaccurate inflammatory articles designed for page hits, thinly bandwagoning on a hot button topic, and stop being so combative about it to the point that it's so obnoxious, it makes me stop caring about "the issue".

 

[Nags]

Well if anything that article gave the game a lot more exposure.

Hell Jason, you probably sold a few hundred thousand copies to all those "14 year-old boys" that wouldn't have looked at the game otherwise.

 

[Tummi Gummi]

Well, I'm offended on a personal level by people who are offended by his art, so I hope he takes that into account and doesn't change his style.

Also, bikini dwarf is hilarious.

I seriously doubt he will. These lines:

I do understand what Jason and the rest of the discussions on the internet are saying for the most part. I am not sure if I can implement the critiques from him and others around the internet into my future artistic creations, but I will definitely keep in mind that these opinions are out there and affect people on a personal level.

It’s okay if it was just me who was criticized, but it is not my intention to cause problems for Dragon’s Crown publisher (ATLUS) and all the other people who are involved in this project. From now on, I will limit myself about transmitting something personal out in the public.

Lastly, please tell Jason that I am sorry for causing him trouble, and also to please don’t let my actions cause him to shy away from Vanillaware products…

Make it clear this is a "I'm sorry you're offended and have caused me trouble with the publisher, I'll keep your criticisms in mind whilst doing nothing to change my style". So it should all be good.

 

[DJSharpeCheddar]

I still believe that the sorceress is a juvenile, harmful piece of art. You're entitled to disagree.

Harmful! Dear God, who will save us from this DANGEROUS depiction of some BOOBS ahhhhhhhh!!

 

[benny_a]

Well if anything that article gave the game a lot more exposure.

Hell Jason, you probably sold a few hundred thousand copies to all those "14 year-old boys" that wouldn't have looked at the game otherwise.

Unlikely that Kotaku has that much reach.

I'm much more interested in Jason expanding how he thinks massive juggling boobs have anything to do with lolicon and the insinuation that this term carries with it when accusing someone of drawing it or enjoying it.

 

[-PXG-]

Big tits are bad, but huge muscle dudes and gratuitous violence are alright.

 

[darkblade77]

Let me clarify something. I don't think Kamitani needed to apologize for anything - especially not his art - but I am glad he apologized for what many, me included, considered to be a homophobic joke.

On Tuesday, I apologized for calling him a 14-year-old, which was inappropriate on my part. I still believe that the sorceress is a juvenile, harmful piece of art. You're entitled to disagree. I find it hard to believe that anyone can see that GIF and not see why people think it's an example of sexual objectification, but there's no point in trying to drag on the same arguments over and over again.

I'm glad this discussion reached him. I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards, where hordes of people have taken offense at the idea that someone might not be happy with a female character that's presented as a jiggling sexual object. But there's nothing I can do about that.

Frankly, reaffirming your stance on this does all of nothing for me as an individual reading about it. If that's the kind of material you intend to promote on your site, and you see the aftermath as an unfortunate circumstance rather than a lesson to be learned, then IMO you deserve even the misguided vitriol you are getting right now. And you certainly deserve the banal tone of the discussion that you started.

 

[badgenome]

Big tits are bad, but huge muscle dudes and gratuitous violence are alright.

Unless there are two or more huge muscle dudes together, then it's homoerotic and possibly homophobic.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Big tits are bad, but huge muscle dudes and gratuitous violence are alright.

I feel bad for any well-endowed females who are not being taken seriously due to the form nature has given them. The way this whole thing has gone makes it feel like certain people in here are condemning them for being whatever they are and have decided to not treat them as individuals, but instead a freakshow, or an abnormal person when they have just as much a right to be there as someone without.

 

[Soriku]

Bullshit! What happened to giving females a bad image and something something sexism something.