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George Kamitani responds to Kotaku

M

Moral Panic

Member
jschreier said:
I'm glad this discussion reached him. I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards, where hordes of people have taken offense at the idea that someone might not be happy with a female character that's presented as a jiggling sexual object. But there's nothing I can do about that.
Click to expand...

This is the part that really gets me. I understand disagreeing with people who want to change the status quo and who criticise something you may like. However, the level of vitriol and toxicity spewed has really caught me off guard.

It's a real shame we can't have a reasonable adult conversation, discussion or debate about this.
 
G

geebee

Banned
So the art is not to your liking or ugly. Get the fuck over it or don't play the game. Simple as that. I personally am not a fan of the exaggerated proportions.. but I can get over it and still enjoy the game without writing whiny articles about being personally offended.
 
P

PopeReal

Member
It was nice to see such a sensible reply from a developer. Maybe it is just because I hang out on Gaf so much (and see the twitter meltdowns) but it seems like most developers get hyper defensive when criticized and come back with an immature and out of place response.

Good for him.
 
C

Carcetti

Member
Lord-Audie said:
59637_429947370434109_277578159_n.jpg


Nothing homoerotic on this pic. right....
Click to expand...

Looks like a Tom of Finland painting of some bears.
 
P

-PXG-

Member
darkblade77 said:
Frankly, reaffirming your stance on this does all of nothing for me as an individual reading about it. If that's the kind of material you intend to promote on your site, and you see the aftermath as an unfortunate circumstance rather than a lesson to be learned, then IMO you deserve even the misguided vitriol you are getting right now. And you certainly deserve the banal tone of the discussion that you started.
Click to expand...

This.

He thinks all this negativity came from nowhere. It just magically came from the demonic void that is the internet. Or maybe it's a result of his ridiculous assertions
 
M

Moral Panic

Member
PopeReal said:
It was nice to see such a sensible reply from a developer. Maybe it is just because I hang out on Gaf so much (and see the twitter meltdowns) but it seems like most developers get hyper defensive when criticized and come back with an immature and out of place response.

Good for him.
Click to expand...

He already filled his quota for ill thought out facebook post unfortunately, which is the thing that really caused this whole thing to blow up.
 
C

Coxy

Member
Sunflower said:
I feel bad for any well-endowed females who are not being taken seriously due to the form nature has given them. The way this whole thing has gone makes it feel like certain people in here are condemning them for being whatever they are and have decided to not treat them as individuals, but instead a freakshow, or an abnormal person when they have just as much a right to be there as someone without.
Click to expand...

Maybe they're strong, multifaceted people with interesting thoughts and ambitions. None of that really matters, because of their bodies.
 
spandexmonkey

spandexmonkey

Banned
Moral Panic said:
Do you want to get into an argument about studies again? You make it sound as if it is clear that it isn't harmful which simply isn't the case. To reply to you from our previous conversation:



Why should it matter whether it is unique to women or not? All that matters is that it causes harm, which the study showed and you do not deny.



The study wasn't to measure the impact on men. It was to measure the impact of the two options for leads - sexualised female and non-sexualised female on women. It showed that sexualised females had negative effects on the women, aka harm. It didn't prove that this harm was long term though so I'll give you that. Having men there or not having them does not have any impact on the study's results.
Click to expand...

The harm they uncovered was a decline in self-esteem, consistent with prior studies that show both men and women feel lowered self esteem when presented with idealized version of their sex. A far cry from the severe, long lasting and damaging effects gender stereo typing and enforced gender roles have specifically to women. Your continued attempts to mix the two only clouds the issue and draws attention away from the things causing genuine (proven) harm.
 
A

abadguy

Banned
Moral Panic said:
This is the part that really gets me. I understand disagreeing with people who want to change the status quo and who criticise something you may like. However, the level of vitriol and toxicity spewed has really caught me off guard.

It's a real shame we can't have a reasonable adult conversation, discussion or debate about this.
Click to expand...

Next time maybe he won't start the "debate" by calling the artist a 14 year old? Wanting to have an intelligent conversation on a subject tends to go better when you don't open with some juvenile insult. But we all know that the intention wasn't to start any real dialogue, it was click bait and nothing more.


OverBlood 3 said:
Harmful in that they're gigantic, does Kamitani not care that these boobs will cause her terrible back ache in future? Appalling.
Click to expand...

No worries, i'm sure she casts a special spell that makes her boobs feel lighter as she walks. She is a sorceress after all...
 
B

badgenome

Member
Moral Panic said:
This is the part that really gets me. I understand disagreeing with people who want to change the status quo and who criticise something you may like. However, the level of vitriol and toxicity spewed has really caught me off guard.

It's a real shame we can't have a reasonable adult conversation, discussion or debate about this.
Click to expand...

Because it's not about disagreement. It's about the fact that, in typical Gawker fashion, Kotaku starts up some boring non-troversy by calling a guy names and then, only once they've gotten their precious story, they lament that the tone of the debate isn't hasn't been as edifying as they would have liked. Well, no fucking shit.
 
L

luxarific

Nork unification denier
Karsticles said:
The western obsession with controlling depictions of women is getting out of hand, and he needs to understand that this is specifically a western problem with a small group of vocal people trying to trample over others.
Click to expand...

There were critiquing not controlling. There's nothing wrong with people pointing out the differing depictions of male versus female characters in video games (or any other media). Also, I'm glad Shreier called Kamitani out re the latter's immature response on Facebook.
 
K

Kule

Member
If people don't like the art, no one is forcing them to play the game. The Author of the article should have shown gameplay/images to a few hundred women and asked them if they viewed it as sexist. At least then there would be some investigation instead of his biased opinion.
I'm guessing he would also consider Boris Vallejo as a sexist artist. It's just a style and he needs to get over it.
 
S

SAB CA

Sketchbook Picasso
jschreier said:
Let me clarify something. I don't think Kamitani needed to apologize for anything - especially not his art - but I am glad he apologized for what many, me included, considered to be a homophobic joke.

On Tuesday, I apologized for calling him a 14-year-old, which was inappropriate on my part. I still believe that the sorceress is a juvenile, harmful piece of art. You're entitled to disagree. I find it hard to believe that anyone can see that GIF and not see why people think it's an example of sexual objectification, but there's no point in trying to drag on the same arguments over and over again.

I'm glad this discussion reached him. I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards, where hordes of people have taken offense at the idea that someone might not be happy with a female character that's presented as a jiggling sexual object. But there's nothing I can do about that.
Click to expand...

Eh... I don't like the way this reads at all. It has that "I was wrong, BUT HE WAS WRONG-ER!" feel to it.

I find it hard to think you could start the initial article in question, without thinking "this will start toxic discussion all over the net!" Heck, if I was Kamitani, and saw someone in another language accuse me, a "vet of the industry" of being a 14 year old, I'd think I could jab back in a light-hearted "You think adult women are ICKY, so you must like adult MEN better!" way, because the initial accusation is presented in such a small, inconsiderate way. "No one can really be 100% serious, speaking this flippantly!"

It's not even a "homosexual" thing at that point, it's just a childish snapback, to a childish comment.

I used to love reading gaming magazine back in the day, because they took gaming pretty seriously. While many adults thought they were just "kids stuff", writers, editors, reviewers... they all attempted to offer in-depth analysis that actually felt like "we're taking this misunderstood medium seriously. Adults work for years to produce these things. Now we, as adults, will take serious time to discuss them, and break them down, and figure out what does, and doesn't work!"

... but that article of yours... it just felt like mudslinging, without any consideration of the full work of Dragon's Crown. A shallow comment, that was better left to forum discussions, rather than "news post" on a professional site.

I guess you can say... as much as I hope Kamitani grows in his expression, after this situation, I hope your journalism / blog style / responsibility of opinions can grow just as much.

Maturity in gaming lies not only on the sholders of those that create them, but also on those that critique them. Both sides have their parts to play!
 
M

Moral Panic

Member
spandexmonkey said:
The harm they uncovered was a decline in self-esteem, consistent with prior studies that show both men and women feel lowered self esteem when presented with idealized version of their sex. A far cry from the severe, long lasting and damaging effects gender stereo typing and enforced gender roles have specifically to women. Your continued attempts to mix the two only clouds the issue and draws attention away from the things causing genuine (proven) harm.
Click to expand...

I guess it's a question of semantics then. I think the lowered self esteem (that we both agree happens with sexualised female characters) is something that can be called harm/harmful and you do not.
 
W

web01

Member
Schreier proved he has absolutely no fucking idea what he was talking about with his posts here on GAF, Kamitani should never have apologised for anything.
 
J

Jac_Solar

Member
benny_a said:
Unlikely that Kotaku has that much reach. :p

I'm much more interested in Jason expanding how he thinks massive juggling boobs have anything to do with lolicon and the insinuation that this term carries with it when accusing someone of drawing it or enjoying it.
Click to expand...

"Lolita Complex" yeah that is a bad accusation.

Moral Panic said:
I guess it's a question of semantics then. I think the lowered self esteem (that we both agree happens with sexualised female characters) is something that can be called harm/harmful and you do not.
Click to expand...

But your argument does not make much sense here -- it's a piece of art that is exaggerated to the point of parody. Your arguments would make much more sense in regards to TV shows, movies, magazines, commercials, etc, or at least 99% of them.
 
W

Wickerbasket

Member
badgenome said:
Because it's not about disagreement. It's about the fact that, in typical Gawker fashion, Kotaku starts up some boring non-troversy by calling a guy names and then, only once they've gotten their precious story, they lament that the tone of the debate isn't hasn't been as edifying as they would have liked. Well, no fucking shit.
Click to expand...
They're just click baiting and GAF fell for it.
 
P

Pyramid head

Banned
jschreier said:
I'm glad this discussion reached him. I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards, where hordes of people have taken offense at the idea that someone might not be happy with a female character that's presented as a jiggling sexual object. But there's nothing I can do about that.
Click to expand...

You're calling the discussion 'toxic' simply because people disagree with you? Do you have a hard time dealing with everything that isn't tailored just to suit you?
 
S

Shig

Strap on your hooker ...
Moral Panic said:
This is the part that really gets me. I understand disagreeing with people who want to change the status quo and who criticise something you may like. However, the level of vitriol and toxicity spewed has really caught me off guard.

It's a real shame we can't have a reasonable adult conversation, discussion or debate about this.
Click to expand...
The first volley of a discussion sets the tone. The guy you're commiserating with about the quality of the conversation kicked off his side of the debate by calling a demonstrably talented artist and the head of his own company, and I quote, "a 14-year-old boy that was probably cheap to hire."
 
K

Knux-Future

Banned
I hope this puts an end to this bullshit situation.

I do like how even after he explained his intention, people are still on the "he was calling him gay" thing. Like wow.

But still a really well written statement despite perhaps being unnecessary IMO.
 
K

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
The continued assertion that the art is harmful does not jive with claims of not advocating a form of censorship or an apology for the creation of the art.

When people claim something is literally harmful, they are taking a stand against it. If you stand against something, you are defacto stating it is not something that should be happening or people should be doing. If I say "your attitude is racist and encourages real harm to minorities" while I am not necessarily advocating taking away your freedom of speech, I am asserting that you shouldn't say racist things. You should stop. You're potentially causing harm.

Saying the artist's art is harmful can be phrased without advocating external censorship, but it is advocating self-censorship. It is saying "you shouldn't do this. It's bad. Please stop."

That's the level of seriousness you step into when you label something harmful. Which is why it is dangerous to inflate the importance of something like the subject matter in question. Arguing that that a single exaggerated character in a game about exaggeration is actually harmful and directly correlated with real life industry sexism and hostility towards women is will likely be seen as a fabulous claim by a lot of people. (And that came to pass, as it were.)
 
K

Karsticles

Member
I just finished writing Kamitani a 2-page letter explaining what is really going on here, and what a snake Schreier is. I hope it encourages Kamitani to continue to be the man he is.
 
M

Moral Panic

Member
Shig said:
The first volley of a discussion sets the tone. The guy you're commiserating with about the quality of the conversation kicked off his side of the debate by calling a demonstrably talented artist and the head of his own company, and I quote, "a 14-year-old boy that was probably cheap to hire."
Click to expand...

I see. That's unfortunate because I think the topic is something that people can really think about and have really interesting debate about. I learn't a lot of stuff in the Sorceress thread but it would've been a lot better if people didn't automatically turn so defensive and offended at simple criticism.
 
R

raven777

Member
When I first heard the article saying the art was drawn by 14 year old, I thought it really was drawn by 14-year old (I didn't know who drew it at that point.) because if it wasn't, it sound liked really bad insult to someone.
 
D

darkblade77

Member
HaRyu said:
Wait, he used the term lolicon? In reference to the sorceress?
Click to expand...

I believe it's the "baby-face-but-overly-voluptuous-body-parts" interpretation--at least that would be the only way the term makes sense in context to me.

A strong impression of youth paired with heavy sexualization. It doesn't hold up when you look at the cast at large relative to the Sorceress herself(in that she clearly does not exemplify youth relative to other female characters like the princess or the Elf), but I can see it--as much of a stretch I consider it to be--if one just looked at her in a vacuum.
 
Velcro Fly

Velcro Fly

Member
the caption of the picture is what makes it bad.

basically amounts to "well you don't like how the women look, so here have some half naked men"

and honestly the way the art style is they look all oiled up and stuff. it's really easy to see them as something other than just shirtless dudes hanging out.

honestly both sides are wrong and i'm glad the art guy apologized. don't expect kotaku dude to apologize. now i just want the game!
 
S

ShockingAlberto

Member
Fine Ham Abounds said:
For the record, I am on the side of those who thought he most certainly needed to clarify what he meant by the statement accompanying the dwarf image. His statement just strikes me as sincere.

I'm open to the possibility that I'm a rube.
Click to expand...

It is open to interpretation, certainly.

Statements of retroactive intention are pleas for belief, but they are not necessarily evidence of intention.

If I posted a picture of "Liar, Liar" here and went "Must be Kamitani's favorite movie," then just left it at that for a few days, people would assume I am calling him a liar, right? And if I later said "Uh, no, obviously I meant since he likes exaggerated features, he must love Jim Carey, what's wrong with you?", would people not be well within their capabilities as beings possessing sentient thought to look at that with some degree of doubt?

(Note that I am not necessarily arguing with you here, but rather using that post as a jump-off point.)
 
I

i-Lo

Member
jschreier said:
Let me clarify something. I don't think Kamitani needed to apologize for anything - especially not his art - but I am glad he apologized for what many, me included, considered to be a homophobic joke.

On Tuesday, I apologized for calling him a 14-year-old, which was inappropriate on my part. I still believe that the sorceress is a juvenile, harmful piece of art. You're entitled to disagree. I find it hard to believe that anyone can see that GIF and not see why people think it's an example of sexual objectification, but there's no point in trying to drag on the same arguments over and over again.

I'm glad this discussion reached him. I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards, where hordes of people have taken offense at the idea that someone might not be happy with a female character that's presented as a jiggling sexual object. But there's nothing I can do about that.
Click to expand...

You'll keep losing reasonable people at "hamrful".

Your article paints a picture of cultural difference.

In JP the sorceress may be seen as: Hyper sexualized, powerful
In NA, god's country, whence the article originated, she can be seen as: Hyper sexualized, "lolicon", immature, objectified
 
C

CambriaRising

Member
jschreier said:
Let me clarify something. I don't think Kamitani needed to apologize for anything - especially not his art - but I am glad he apologized for what many, me included, considered to be a homophobic joke.

On Tuesday, I apologized for calling him a 14-year-old, which was inappropriate on my part. I still believe that the sorceress is a juvenile, harmful piece of art. You're entitled to disagree. I find it hard to believe that anyone can see that GIF and not see why people think it's an example of sexual objectification, but there's no point in trying to drag on the same arguments over and over again.

I'm glad this discussion reached him. I'm disappointed by how toxic the discussion has been on NeoGAF and other message boards, where hordes of people have taken offense at the idea that someone might not be happy with a female character that's presented as a jiggling sexual object. But there's nothing I can do about that.
Click to expand...

Doubling down I see.

Jesus Christ Jason, I thought you were better than this.
 
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