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[Giraffe Keighley]

I'm not sure how many people buying these bundles actually care about the charities involved. At least I don't and set the full amount to the HIB guys, so that they can improve the website, and - if I expect the game to be any good - the developers.

But then I also don't really trust these charity organisations and don't feel like doing proper research about a particular organisation.

Regardless of how charitable people are and how much people trust the organizations, its still a charity

And that's not to say there's a huge problem with paying what you want, and how you want, thats why the option is there.

But when you're given all this leeway (again with the perception that it's supposed to be for a good cause) and you try to flip it purely for your own personal gain, there's gonna be some moralistic issues no matter which way you try to rationalize it.

 

[Mister Chippy]

Calling people who buy overpriced things "victims" is a bit far-fetched.

I don't think so. They may not be victims of anything truly awful, but they are victims of someone who's trying to scam them. Sure they may only lose out on something like $10, but that doesn't mean that they're anywhere near as much to blame for their loss as the other guy.

I think everyone can do some research and look around where to find a game for the cheapest price. If a person can't, he or she can still ask in the cheap ass gaffer threads.

You really expect someone who would fall for something like this to be the sort of person to post on Gaf?

 

[Shiggy]

Regardless of how charitable people are and how much people trust the organizations, its still a charity

And that's not to say there's a huge problem with paying what you want, and how you want, thats why the option is there.

But when you're given all this leeway (again with the perception that it's supposed to be for a good cause) and you try to flip it purely for your own personal gain, there's gonna be some moralistic issues no matter which way you try to rationalize it.

From a moralistic perspective, I personally think that it's wrong to resell the bundles or even sell single codes. I even fear that developers will not continue to include their games in these bundles.

If PWYW is not helping developers, they will need to stop supporting it. I hate to say that, it sucks.

I don't think so. They may not be victims of anything truly awful, but they are victims of someone who's trying to scam them. Sure they may only lose out on something like $10, but that doesn't mean that they're anywhere near as much to blame for their loss as the other guy.

I don't think that's a sound argument as our economy is based on buying things and selling those for a profit. It doesn't just happen with indie bundles. Sellers on a farmer's market sometimes buy products in supermarkets and sell them for a profit at their stall.

You really expect someone who would fall for something like this to be the sort of person to post on Gaf?

Others mentioned people trying to do this in the B/T/S thread on here. So apparently it does happen.

 

[vg260]

I don't think so. They may not be victims of anything truly awful, but they are victims of someone who's trying to scam them. Sure they may only lose out on something like $10, but that doesn't mean that they're anywhere near as much to blame for their loss as the other guy.

I don't really consider selling something for way more than you paid for it to someone who didn't do sufficient research before buying it a scam. The buyer is getting what they bought for the price they agreed to paid for it. It's not stolen or fraudulent merchandise. It's opportunistic and morally questionable perhaps for the seller depending on the source, and poor research by the buyer. So, in this case, the buyer definitely has accountability.

 

[MUnited83]

Regardless of how charitable people are and how much people trust the organizations, its still a charity

And that's not to say there's a huge problem with paying what you want, and how you want, thats why the option is there.

But when you're given all this leeway (again with the perception that it's supposed to be for a good cause) and you try to flip it purely for your own personal gain, there's gonna be some moralistic issues no matter which way you try to rationalize it.

Actually, most of the time there are only two charities you can donate for:

EFF, which is not a charity in any way.It's a activist group.

And Child's Play is a charity that buys videogames/toys/movies for kids in hospitals(mostly in the USA) (that's pretty cute and all, but there are more important charities out there)

And the new weekly bundle doesn't even have charities to donate for, at all, actually.

 

[Mister Chippy]

I don't really consider selling something for way more than you paid for it to someone who didn't do sufficient research before buying it a scam. The buyer is getting what they bought for the price they agreed to paid for it. It's not stolen or fraudulent merchandise. It's opportunistic and morally questionable perhaps for the seller depending on the source, and poor research by the buyer. So, in this case, the buyer definitely has accountability.

The buyer has accountability, sure, I never said they didn't, I just said that they were getting the short end of the stick and it might be fair to call them victims. However they aren't nearly as accountable as the guy who took their games wile causing them to lose money so they could shark the games at higher prices to people who don't know any better. The people who buy these things should have done their research, but saying that they're almost as accountable as someone who caused a primarily charitable organization to lose money so they could sell games at a huge markup to people who didn't know any better is just silly.

 

[Giraffe Keighley]

Actually, most of the time there are only two charities you can donate for:

EFF, which is not a charity in any way.It's a activist group.

And Child's Play is a charity that buys videogames/toys/movies for kids in hospitals(mostly in the USA) (that's pretty cute and all, but there are more important charities out there)

And the new weekly bundle doesn't even have charities to donate for, at all, actually.

The point isn't that there are other, better charities out there, it's that you can put the money towards a positive cause

Which even if there aren't charities theres still the option to give the money to the developer.

 

[Shiggy]

The buyer has accountability, sure, I never said they didn't, I just said that they were getting the short end of the stick and it might be fair to call them victims. However they aren't nearly as accountable as the guy who effectively stole the games (since buying games at minimum price from Humble actually loses them money) to shark at higher prices to people who don't know any better. The people who buy these things should have done their research, but saying that they're almost as accountable as someone who caused a primarily charitable organization to lose money so they could sell games at a huge markup to people who didn't know any better is just silly.

I think you should stop now.

 

[vg260]

The buyer has accountability, sure, I never said they didn't, I just said that they were getting the short end of the stick and it might be fair to call them victims. However they aren't nearly as accountable as the guy who effectively stole the games (since buying games at minimum price from Humble actually loses them money) to shark at higher prices to people who don't know any better. The people who buy these things should have done their research, but saying that they're almost as accountable as someone who caused a primarily charitable organization to lose money so they could sell games at a huge markup to people who didn't know any better is just silly.

Paying the bare minimum allowed by humble bundle is absolutely not stealing, either literally or effectively. I don't consider it stealing if someone presents a business offer and another party accepts it. They presented the offer for anyone to pay $1 to get the keys. That was their business offer for which they willingly knew they might take a loss after fees. Call buying it for $1 cheap, thoughtless, or opportunistic, but it is not stealing in any sense of the word.

 

[vg260]

Worse yet there have been people in the B/S/T thread who get really mad if you point it out, like we're supposed to not let gaffers know they're being fleeced.

From the BST thread OP:

3. No need to whine

Everyone involved is just either looking to buy, sell, or trade something. If someone wants a certain amount of money for something, whether it is worth that amount of money will be determined by the people willing to pay for it. There's no need to guilt people for selling things they got for free, or making a big fuss out of perceived overcharging. It's a free market.

 

[dream]

From an ethical standpoint, I think people should just ignore that rule when it comes to egregious examples like this one. What exactly are they going to do to enforce it?

 

[Timeless]

Someone buying a $4.36 "Humble Bundle 2" key isn't stealing from charity. The opportunity to buy the games and contribute to charity has passed. Why would someone pay $4.36 for HIB 2 if they had the chance to get it for ~$1 (minimum price) from the official source years ago? Answer: they didn't know about it years ago, or couldn't afford it years ago. The people who buy from re-sellers and the people who buy from the original source are for the most part different groups of people.

The headline that Game Informer wrote is misleading. Charity is only one part of it.

The games are a low price because the developer agreed to include it in a Humble Bundle. That can be for many reasons, not just charity.

• Goodwill / increasing brand awareness and value (EA / THQ)
• A last round of sales, usually even after a steep Steam discount (to get those willing to pay $1 for 4 games but not $2.50 for 1 game)
• Charity (EA again, maybe some of the more altruistic developers)

Sales on all platforms see a slight bump after being included in a Humble Bundle. (Source: Dust AET developer, who said XBLA sales increased while he was in the Humble Bundle)

The Humble Bundle company makes a bunch of money from each bundle. They wouldn't keep doing it if the company itself didn't make money. After all, where else are they getting money? And developers wouldn't join in time after time if HIB didn't have stats showing that they can make money from it. There aren't that many altruistic developers out there that only want to raise money for 1) charity and 2) the Humble Bundle company.

Saying HIB's sole purpose is "charity" is a simplification to the point of being grossly misleading. They are a business. Businesses join with them partly because it will make them money.

 

[Mister Chippy]

I think you should stop now.

Paying the bare minimum allowed by humble bundle is absolutely not stealing, either literally or effectively. I don't consider it stealing if someone presents a business offer and another party accepts it. They presented the offer for anyone to pay $1 to get the keys. That was their business offer for which they willingly knew they might take a loss after fees. Call buying it for $1 cheap, thoughtless, or opportunistic, but it is not stealing in any sense of the word.

I said effectively as in monetarily/reselling Humble stuff being against their TOS and illegal, but I'll admit that it was bad wording since it really isn't stealing, so I'll go back and edit my post. Let me rephrase it.

Buying the game for the minimum loses Humble money and doesn't give them anything in return. By doing that repeatedly and then going on to resell the game they are screwing over Humble. Humble does offer anyone the opportunity to do this, but they also specifically state that this is only for your own personal , non-commercial use in the TOS. I said stealing because it does lose Humble out on money and it is illegal, but thinking back on it it was poor wording.

 

[Timeless]

Buying the game for the minimum loses Humble money and doesn't give them anything in return.

It costs Humble >$1 for them to accept my $1 payment? I'd believe you if it was $0.01 or $0.40, but at $1 they should be able to make some money even after credit card fees.

 

[Shiggy]

I said effectively as in monetarily/reselling Humble stuff being against their TOS and illegal, but I'll admit that it was bad wording since it really isn't stealing, so I'll go back and edit my post. Let me rephrase it.

That's also bullshit. It isn't illegal.

Buying the game for the minimum loses Humble money and doesn't give them anything in return. By doing that repeatedly and then going on to resell the game they are screwing over Humble. Humble does offer anyone the opportunity to do this, but they also specifically state that this is only for your own personal , non-commercial use in the TOS. I said stealing because it does lose Humble out on money and it is illegal, but thinking back on it it was poor wording.

I also dislike this, but then I also pay the bare minimum of a single cent at times. It's the big issue of offering PWYW.

And preventing people from reselling licenses, which you receive in the HIB, is illegal in Europe.

 

[Decado]

Can developers ban their titles from being sold on 7 Entertainment sites?

 

[Mister Chippy]

That's also bullshit. It isn't illegal.

except as otherwise specifically set forth in a licensor’s end user license agreement, as otherwise agreed upon by a licensor in writing or as otherwise allowed under applicable law, distributing, transmitting, copying (other than re-installing software or files previously purchased by you through the Service on computers, mobile or tablet devices owned by your, or creating backup copies of such software or files for your own personal use) or otherwise exploiting the Products (defined below) in any manner other than for your own private, non-commercial, personal use.

Right there in the TOS. When you buy a game from Humble you enter into a contract with them where you state that you will not use their products commercially.

I also dislike this, but then I also pay the bare minimum of a single cent at times. It's the big issue of offering PWYW.

Nothing wrong with doing this for your own personal use. It doesn't cost them very much money and enough people pay more that assuming people don't buy huge amounts of games for resale it's not an issue.

And preventing people from reselling licenses, which you receive in the HIB, is illegal in Europe.

Why does that matter here? All companies in this case are American. American laws apply here.

It costs Humble >$1 for them to accept my $1 payment? I'd believe you if it was $0.01 or $0.40, but at $1 they should be able to make some money even after credit card fees.

They also need to pay for bandwidth, hosting, all sorts of other stuff. If you pay the minimum and don't direct all the money to humble they will lose money.

 

[Shiggy]

Right there in the TOS. When you buy a game from Humble you enter into a contract with them where you state that you will not use their products commercially.

So it's against their ToS (which you additionally said in your original post), but it's not illegal.

Why does that matter here? All companies in this case are American. American laws apply here.

Does the original seller have any rights to the licenses I bought? Nope. Reselling HIB keys may be against the ToS, but they cannot prevent Europeans from doing that. All HIB can do is revoke the contract (thus deactivate the Steam keys) and pay back the money received.

 

[Mister Chippy]

So it's against their ToS (which you additionally said in your original post), but it's not illegal.

Breaking the TOS is actually illegal, abliet not a very serious crime. It's legally breaking a minor contract. You can also be sued for damages to the company, especially since breaking the terms of the TOS in the manner done by the company here could be construed as copyright infringement, since they distributed someone else's IP without legal permission to do so.

Does the original seller have any rights to the licenses I bought? Nope. Reselling HIB keys may be against the ToS, but they cannot prevent Europeans from doing that. All HIB can do is revoke the contract (thus deactivate the Steam keys) and pay back the money received.

They do under United States law. That may not be the case for you, but for the company in question it is. Also, they don't need to pay back the money if they revoke the contract because you were found to be in breach of the TOS, or if you want to exit the contract yourself.

Also, as a final arguing point they could fall back on, (although honestly if they did I'd think it was complete bullshit), is that the TOS specifically state that everything in them is to be under the jurisdiction of the state of California.

EDIT: Also, if a European purchased a key from this seller Humble would still probably have rights to the license, since while it might have been legal for the company to sell the key under European law the company didn't have the right to sell the key under US law, so they key would still have been sold illegally. The consumer wouldn't be liable for anything since they're purchase of the key was legal where they were, but humble could still probably revoke the rights to the license.

 

[RedSwirl]

First I've heard of it happening with Humble Bundle keys. Usually these kinds of sites are reselling keys from Russian retail copies or something.

 

[Shiggy]

Breaking the TOS is actually illegal, abliet not a very serious crime. It's legally breaking a minor contract. You can also be sued for damages to the company, especially since breaking the terms of the TOS in the manner done by the company here could be construed as copyright infringement, since they distributed someone else's IP without legal permission to do so.

I don't think breaking the ToS or breaking a contract is illegal. It's breach of contract, it's a civil case, nothing criminal. And why would you need someone's legal permission to sell something?

They do under United States law. That may not be the case for you, but for the company in question it is. Also, they don't need to pay back the money if they revoke the contract because you were found to be in breach of the TOS, or if you want to exit the contract yourself.

If a contract is breached, is it it really allowed to revoke the things provided by one party? At least in Europe it isn't; the one party would not be allowed to revoke the licenses but would be entitled to damages.

Also, as a final arguing point they could fall back on, (although honestly if they did I'd think it was complete bullshit), is that the TOS specifically state that everything in them is to be under the jurisdiction of the state of California.

EDIT: Also, if a European purchased a key from this seller Humble would still probably have rights to the license, since while it might have been legal for the company to sell the key under European law the company didn't have the right to sell the key under US law, so they key would still have been sold illegally. The consumer wouldn't be liable for anything since they're purchase of the key was legal where they were, but humble could still probably revoke the rights to the license.

I guess you are right here.

 

[Senor Kami]

It sucks that you can't resell a Steam key. It's essentially an unopened product that you purchased.

 

[kick51]

Um, excuse me? I haven't seen any of that in the buy/sell/trade thread. If someone happens to be selling something way over the price they can get it somewhere else, no one will buy it or sometimes people will point out that the game is on sale elsewhere.

I'm a little annoyed that you're trying to lump the b/s/t thread with this issue.

there are all kinds of questionable PC key sales there. You think those guys selling $22 copies of South Park before release buy PC keys on their own dime and are just hooking you guys up for being cool gaffer buddies?

 

[Mister Chippy]

I don't think breaking the ToS or breaking a contract is illegal. It's breach of contract, it's a civil case, nothing criminal. And why would you need someone's legal permission to sell something?

It's IP. Same reason you couldn't make and sell your own Spider Man comicbook without permission from Marvel. If you don't have permission (as in a legally obtained license) to distribute something that leverages a specific IP it's illegal. Since you don't have a legal license, legally you could be seen as being no different from piracy websites that also distribute copies of games without a license.

If a contract is breached, is it it really allowed to revoke the things provided by one party? At least in Europe it isn't; the one party would not be allowed to revoke the licenses but would be entitled to damages.

Yes, without a doubt. When you enter into the contract you specifically agree that if you want to leave the contract you willingly give up everything gained under the contract without compensation. Now, if you thought this was unfair you could sue, but it would probably be thrown out of court since you made a completely legal agreement. It's the same way in Europe. You agreed to let them take back the game and said they didn't have to give you your money back. Also, if you purchased the game from someone who didn't have any legal right to distribute it you have no rights to it whatsoever, since the person you bought it from was not legally able to transfer rights of ownership over to you.


Finally, like I said last time there is that paragraph at the end of the TOS that says that you agree that everything here falls under the jurisdiction of California law, to the exclusion of any conflicts with any other laws. I have no idea if that holds water, but I'm thinking it might. Steam was recently sued in Europe for not allowing people to resell licenses and it won, so there's obviously some workaround. I'll read into the Steam case and post back here later.

EDIT: OK, so I'm back with the results from the Valve case. Turns out that games are legally different from "computer software" of the type ruled legal to resell in the UsedSoft case. No-resale clauses in TOS for videogames are actually totally legal in Europe (or at least Germany). However this shouldn't be considered final yet, since apparently there are still a few other cases about this floating around Europe. Still, be careful selling games and makes sure to always read the TOS!

 

[MUnited83]

It's IP. Same reason you couldn't make and sell your own Spider Man comicbook without permission from Marvel. If you don't have permission (as in a legally obtained license) to distribute something that leverages a specific IP it's illegal. Since you don't have a legal license, legally you could be seen as being no different from piracy websites that also distribute copies of games without a license.

.

This is not making your Spider Man comic book. This is buying a official comic book and selling it. The keys activate on steam and grant you a legal license for it.
You also just called everyone who gives away their spare keys on the Steam thread pirates. You are also saying that you can't buy a PC game in any way or form and be able to resell it.

Finally, like I said last time there is that paragraph at the end of the TOS that says that you agree that everything here falls under the jurisdiction of California law, to the exclusion of any conflicts with any other laws. I have no idea if that holds water, but I'm thinking it might. Steam was recently sued in Europe for not allowing people to resell licenses and it won, so there's obviously some workaround. I'll read into the Steam case and post back here later.

TOS are not legally binding in Europe.

there are all kinds of questionable PC key sales there. You think those guys selling $22 copies of South Park before release buy PC keys on their own dime and are just hooking you guys up for being cool gaffer buddies?

Those were not keys, those were Steam gifts, bought on the Steam store. At 22$ there was a very little profit margin. Even then, what is the issue there? Nobody on that thread is there to lose money, I believe.

 

[Owlowiscious]

Difference here being (and a pretty fucking apparent difference to anyone who's not being blinded by their own agenda) that these games are being offered deliberately undervalued to support a charity. It'd be like walking into a soup kitchen and going through the line 50 times and then turning around and selling the soup to homeless people after the shelter closes down.

If the reseller couldn't sell the reseller wouldn't have bought in the first place and thus the charity would have gotten 0.

People that are buying from the reseller are doing so because they did not buy from the charity, so that charity would get 0 from these people if not for the reseller.

There's no hidden agenda here.

 

[Noogy]

Huh, I see my own game on their website. Not really sure what the implications are and what actions are being made by HB.

 

[Danneee]

Actual gaming journalism, impressive!

And that is some seriously shitty behavior.

 

[Mister Chippy]

This is not making your Spider Man comic book. This is buying a official comic book and selling it. The keys activate on steam and grant you a legal license for it.
You also just called everyone who gives away their spare keys on the Steam thread pirates. You are also saying that you can't buy a PC game in any way or form and be able to resell it.

You're coming up with a lot of things I didn't say. The Spider Man comic book analogy was used to describe a company selling a game that it did not have the right to sell and why that might be seen as copyright infringement by some people. If you are selling something that you have not been given the right to sell, that can be construed as copyright infringement.

The fact that the keys activate on steam does not matter if they were obtained illegally. Before anyone misinterprets that, I'm saying that if they were sold by a company that was breaking their TOS the company who originally had distribution rights is legally able to take away the code, even if it has already been sold to someone who thought it was legit.

I did not call everyone who sells or gives away their steam keys pirates. If I did, that would be pretty damned hypocritical of me because I'm currently giving away a copy of Antichamber on that Steam Gifts site. Morally and legally there is nothing wrong with giving away a key you were given for free. Otherwise there wouldn't be gift options on many of those sites. Giving away keys for free constitutes personal non-commercial use and is therefor acceptable under most TOS. Selling the odd Steam key every now and then could be construed as commercial use, but you could also probably get away with it since it's not business related or generating a significant amount of income. That's totally different from purchasing large numbers of Steam keys to sell at your commercial business from a company that specifically says you can't do that in it's TOS.

As for the bit about me saying you can't resell PC games, that's actually basically what I'm saying here, at least legally. Like I said up there there is probably nothing wrong with selling the odd key here and there, but beyond that it is actually illegal to resell most digital game licenses (and that's skirting pretty close to being illegal itself). I wish that wasn't the case, but it is.

TOS are not legally binding in Europe.

That's wrong. That's straight up wrong. TOS are a legally binding contract no matter where you are, assuming they are ruled to be a valid TOS. European courts are a lot stricter about what constitutes a valid TOS, but unless the TOS is ruled to be strongly in the favor of the company and against the consumer it is normally ruled as valid. If you want more on this, read the COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 93/13/EEC of 5 April 1993 on unfair terms in consumer contracts. It spells out what exactly is necessary for a Standard Form Contract (which is what TOS are) to be considered legally invalid.

Here is another thing about Standard-Form contracts.

Edit: OK, I found something that is exclusively an explanation of TOS type contracts that uses minimal legalese. The jist of it is that European law invalidates contracts seen as unfair, but what is seen as unfair is handled different from country to country and on a case by case basis.

 

[MUnited83]

Ok, now I'm confused. I assume you're talking about the GAF B/S/T thread, but I never mentioned that anywhere. I've only been talking about this company that ripped off Humble. As far as I'm concerned the B/S/T thread is fine. The idea is a good one, the profits probably aren't enough to be considered commercial, and Valve probably won't want to spoil their friendly image by coming after people for selling a few Steam gifts every now and then.

That's because that wasn't for you, I was replying to someone's else quote

 

[sibarraz]

Not gonna lie, I inmediately went to that page to see if they had mortal kombat arcade collection at low prize

 

[Mister Chippy]

That's because that wasn't for you, I was replying to someone's else quote

Whoops, sorry. That explains why it made no sense. My bad.

I quoted after the first paragraph and read the rest of the thing in the response window.