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News Drama God of War Ragnarok Writer Champions Angrboda as Part of "Our own spin" on Norse mythology

Dr. Suchong

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Once was enough. Petulant?



Respect your elders. Now go finish your homework.
I don't need to do my homework.
I've already "Schooled" you my friend ;-)
 

AutumnLeaves

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The comments here...damn.

Norse "mythos" is only the Eddas and the Eddas make no mention of her apperance and most of the jötuns.

Jötuns can be blue, pink, orange or purple with smooth, rocky, scaly or transluscent skin and varying in height from normal dudes to skyscrapers

Also her game depiction comes from a very famous 19th century painting which was featured in the largest collection of Early-Germanic religious practices (Walhall: Die Götterwelt der Germanen). The painting is "Loki's Brood" by Emil Doepler and she is depicted as dark-skinned with long, messy hair.

This is the painting in question https://www.worldhistory.org/image/14571/lokis-brood/

She is not ethnically black by any measure, but the visual representations of Agnrboda always rely on otherness, and in the cases of when she is depicted as beffiting a human they mostly rely on darker skins and hair, instead of stereotypical Northern European/Germanic looks.

Must also mention that the 19th and start of 20th century was a time when anthropology and the idea of indo-europeans started getting mainstream recognition and many artists started depicting ancient Germanic gods with Middle Eastern and/or Northern Indian looks, to signify their origin, so most depictions of her show her with darker hair and/or skin.

I suspect that her ethnicity for the game was chosen on the basis of her being a foreigner and completely other from the Norse pantheon, an outsider status.

Couple other points:

1.) The movement was not universal as you also have blond Thor with the physique of a Greek statue, art movements and trends are not universal and usually influenced by politics.

2.) Angrboda in the game is not specifically derived from that specific painting, but having certain people with non-idealized Norse attributes is not anything new for representations of Gods and mythos.

This is not a big deal. At all.
 

David Ricardo

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Why does it matter that this character is black? Why is that offensive in the slightest?
It's not offensive, but it doesn't fit the role at all. It's an adorable little black girl. She even looks like she was raised a conservative, like a young Candace Owens.

angrboda is supposed to be a hellish giant, a witch, and her offspring are monsters. She should be bigger and more muscular, like Leslie Jones for example
 
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supernova8

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Hurry and get to the part where he mentions to the no black people allowed crowd that Kratos is voiced by two black actors.

innocent whistle GIF

I guess the rebuttal to that would be that Kratos is completely made up whereas this character isn't (or at least not by the studio itself) and so is open game.
 

Mabdia

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It's not offensive, but it doesn't fit the role at all. It's an adorable little black girl. She even looks like she was raised a conservative, like a young Candace Owens.

angrboda is supposed to be a hellish giant, a witch, and her offspring are monsters. She should be bigger and more muscular, like Leslie Jones for example
Funny enough, this character should be in The Last of Us 2 and Abbey (don't know and don't care if it's correct) should be in God of War.
 
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bender

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GIFs instead of a coherent counter argument?
How far you have fallen, in such a short space of time.
I wonder how many pairs of hands you must have to grasp at all those straws :)
My dear, confused friend.

What's to argue? You saw yourself into a conversation about me never forgiving David Jaffe and mentioned trophies and "getting gud". Jaffe/SSM was responsible for the PS2 versions, BluePoint for the PS3 ports in 2009 (Jaffe was at Eat Sleep Play). Now please tell me more about your video game skills, my dear friend.
 

OsirisBlack

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First of all unless my memory is really fuzzy didn’t they already address jormangundr being from a future of sorts where he and Thor’s fight was so brutal it sent him back in time or something like that? Think it was narrated by Mimir.

On the off topic I won’t even quote the post but I’m definitely going to address it. White shaming …. ? Please don’t go there, schools don’t have to teach accurate American history in schools and gloss over the bad things that whites did not only to African Americans but also to Native Americans and Chinese immigrants. I have children in middle and high school and the school system should be ashamed, rewriting history. Should people be shamed or guilted for the transgressions of their ancestors? No. Should they pretend they never happened? I’d also say no. Their is a reason this country is as bad as it is. As a solider living abroad there was much less racism in Germany of all places than I see here in good ol Merica.
 

Dr. Suchong

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What's to argue? You saw yourself into a conversation about me never forgiving David Jaffe and mentioned trophies and "getting gud". Jaffe/SSM was responsible for the PS2 versions, BluePoint for the PS3 ports in 2009 (Jaffe was at Eat Sleep Play). Now please tell me more about your video game skills, my dear friend.
Perhaps we've got off on the wrong foot.
My initial post was meant to be light-hearted, hence the winking emoji.
I never at any point suggested that Gow started with the Ps3, merely that I had little trouble with a particular section in Gow. For the record I played it on the PS2 on release as well and had little trouble there too. Bit of luck as well I suppose. I enjoy a bit of verbal jousting and occasionally run away with myself a little. Lol. I'm willing to say sorry if I upset you.Truce?
 

bender

Candy Corn Aficionado
Apr 12, 2010
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Perhaps we've got off on the wrong foot.
My initial post was meant to be light-hearted, hence the winking emoji.
I never at any point suggested that Gow started with the Ps3, merely that I had little trouble with a particular section in Gow. For the record I played it on the PS2 on release as well and had little trouble there too. Bit of luck as well I suppose. I enjoy a bit of verbal jousting and occasionally run away with myself a little. Lol. I'm willing to say sorry if I upset you.Truce?

Truce? I don't take anything seriously here my dear friend. I think you may be the one confused in that regard. It's all laughs and love here.
 

Fbh

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I don't see the big issue.
It's not like the game is intending to be fully accurate to begin with, unless people are eagerly awaiting the part where Atreus goes to fuck a horse (or rather be fucked by one as I think Loki actually turns into a mare).

I'm not a fan of race swaping actual historical figures or established fictional characters. But all this drama over a mythological creature that only has vague descriptions (if at all) In a game that's already taking a ton of liberties with Norse mythology seems silly.
 

Dr. Suchong

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Truce? I don't take anything seriously here my dear friend. I think you may be the one confused in that regard. It's all laughs and love here.
Oh my lord lol I was worried I put my size twelves in it with my sledgehammer wit lol
Lol easy to misconstrue text. No tones etc .
 

Hoddi

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Nov 3, 2020
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The comments here...damn.

Norse "mythos" is only the Eddas and the Eddas make no mention of her apperance and most of the jötuns.

Jötuns can be blue, pink, orange or purple with smooth, rocky, scaly or transluscent skin and varying in height from normal dudes to skyscrapers

Also her game depiction comes from a very famous 19th century painting which was featured in the largest collection of Early-Germanic religious practices (Walhall: Die Götterwelt der Germanen). The painting is "Loki's Brood" by Emil Doepler and she is depicted as dark-skinned with long, messy hair.

This is the painting in question https://www.worldhistory.org/image/14571/lokis-brood/

She is not ethnically black by any measure, but the visual representations of Agnrboda always rely on otherness, and in the cases of when she is depicted as beffiting a human they mostly rely on darker skins and hair, instead of stereotypical Northern European/Germanic looks.

Must also mention that the 19th and start of 20th century was a time when anthropology and the idea of indo-europeans started getting mainstream recognition and many artists started depicting ancient Germanic gods with Middle Eastern and/or Northern Indian looks, to signify their origin, so most depictions of her show her with darker hair and/or skin.

I suspect that her ethnicity for the game was chosen on the basis of her being a foreigner and completely other from the Norse pantheon, an outsider status.

Couple other points:

1.) The movement was not universal as you also have blond Thor with the physique of a Greek statue, art movements and trends are not universal and usually influenced by politics.

2.) Angrboda in the game is not specifically derived from that specific painting, but having certain people with non-idealized Norse attributes is not anything new for representations of Gods and mythos.

This is not a big deal. At all.

Yer, I can't believe that people are still so obsessed with this :|

God of War 2018 was already an insult to anyone who pretends to care about historical accuracy. They literally ran the Icelandic dialog through fucking Google Translate.

Angurboða probably shouldn't even look human in the first place because she's the mother of all wolves according to the legend.
 

Dacon

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Of course they are. Because a lot of people have decided that ‘black person included’ means ‘woke’. Which means that in their desire to fight back against the evil woke monster, they just end up sounding like Klan members 🙄

Or, because when films like The Last Samurai are made people cry cultural appropriation, but here's a game based heavily in Nordic culture, a culture of predominately white people where they feel the need to add a black person( I don't need to explain why blacks wouldn't be native to Nords right?) and when people say it's out of place or odd people think it's simply because people are just being reactionary, or racist.

It's intellectually dishonest, and just plain stupid. There's a blatant double standard here. People wind up "sounding like Klan members" because that's how it winds up getting framed. It's not about the reason why this character is black in this setting, it's just about their blackness.

Many people were RIGHTLY annoyed about a bunch of white people portraying Egyptian people and Gods in Gods of Egypt, and I think a similar sentiment is at play here. If one of the gods in a game based off of African mythology and religion was Asian or White, I'd be similarly annoyed.

I don't see the problem. It's a game. Main character is a Black male

Kratos is olive skinned. As someone who would primarily spend most of their time in the sun during that time in that region, his skin is darker than the average white person people are used to.
 
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She is at least an attractive character (doesn't have a stupid haircut or a masculine face) so I don't see a problem. She also doesn't sound annoying like the girl from Forspoken.

I think most people will forget about it when the game releases and have fun playing as Kratos killing enemies.
 
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Hoddi

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Or, because when films like The Last Samurai are made people cry cultural appropriation, but here's a game based heavily in Nordic culture, a culture of predominately white people where they feel the need to add a black person( I don't need to explain why blacks wouldn't be native to Nords right?) and when people say it's out of place or odd people think it's simply because people are just being reactionary, or racist.
This might work if genetic studies hadn't already shown otherwise. Viking travels are well documented into the mediterranean (even as far as Iran) and including the entire northern African coast.

There was even a study released last year that suggested that the coastal vikings were more genetically diverse than their peasant countrymen who lived further inland. I'm Icelandic myself and there are vastly, vastly more dirty haired people around here than there are pure blonds.

Hell, one of my best friends is as 'pure blooded' as they come and he looks almost identical to Che Gueverra. That's not from any Scandinavian influence but because we aren't nearly as pure-bred as some of you people think. And seeing Angurboða as a black girl bothered me absolutely fuck all despite literally having grown up on these stories.
 
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WitchHunter

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This thread is slowly becoming a scene from True Romance :DD. Where Dennis Hopper gives Christopher Walken a history lesson.


Btw all of our ancestors were black.
 
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WitchHunter

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people thinking kratos is black is one of the strangest long-standing internetisms that constantly pop up and i will never in a million years understand how or why it happened

man's a spartan greek, fuck kind of mental gymnastics are people doing to get here
Once the ashes will come off at the end of the game, it could turn out to be very true :D.
 
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Dacon

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There was even a study released last year that suggested that the coastal vikings were more genetically diverse than their peasant countrymen who lived further inland. I'm Icelandic myself and there are vastly, vastly more dirty haired people around here than there are pure blonds.

Yes, and thanks to a large study of genetic sequencing and study of viking remains we've discovered that all of the vikings weren't Scandinavian. The viking identity wasn't composed entirely of Scandinavian people, while many supposite that they were predominately Scandinavian. Nordic people however, are naturally a pale skinned people due to the region they inhabit.


And seeing Angurboða as a black girl bothered me absolutely fuck all despite literally having grown up on these stories.

Good for you I guess? I'm black and it annoys me because it feels like more empty tokenism.
 
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Hoddi

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Yes, and thanks to a large study of genetic sequencing and study of viking remains we've discovered that all of the vikings weren't Scandinavian. The viking identity wasn't composed entirely of Scandinavian people, while many supposite that they were predominately Scandinavian. Nordic people however, are naturally a pale skinned people due to the region they inhabit.



Good for you I guess? I'm black and it annoys me because it feels like more empty tokenism.
I didn't know but that's fair enough. I don't like tokenism either so I guess we agree on that.

I'm mostly just venting.
 
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WitchHunter

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As a person from Sweden I feel attacked and violated by this design decision. My ancestors is turning in their graves.

Just kidding, no I didn't care about the choice to make one of the characters black. If it becomes more reliable and bring joy to some gamers, good.
In the end it will be told a few generations later that all the cultures were one and originated from one specific country. Your fellow swedes will love that I'm sure of it.

Guys twisting himself into a pretzel trying to explain away forced diversity.

No one would have an issue if the game was geographically set in southern lands, but it’s the opposite. Mythical or not, a level of grounding is expected in any fantasy to make it relatable - this nonsense just acts to subvert it.

It’s the lack of logic and being told 2 + 2 = 5 that is frustrating.
Yeah, 1984 in the works. We are witnessing it, 200 years later it will be fed as the universal truth.
 
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WitchHunter

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Well, when it comes to conflicting/plausible content and immersion, every person is different. Some care, some dont. There's all kinds:

- Character
- Setting
- Plot

For example, I like WWII shooters. I want to test out COD Vanguard when the Xbox beta is up. But watching videos it does seem weird to attach red dot kind of scopes to a WWII gun. I think one reticule is a green dot. I'll have to test for myself how ok or dumb it is for overall appeal. I use iron sights all the time in WWII games so it may not be an issue, but if I'm forced to use some high tech gizmos in a WWII game I might ditch the game as too wacky.

Just to show how setting can turn off people, there are some before COD beta came out for PS, they were already turned off by this alternate reality WWII. Well, it's just a setting guys. Just accept it as writer innovation. No?
When you touch the hot iron and burn your hand your body gives you a response (pain) to signify you should not do that again. The applies to cultural appropriation too. It's good if the push-back exists. It will be very, very, very bad when it ceases to exist.
 

RafterXL

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There is absolutely nothing wrong with the devs doing what they want with these characters and making her black.

How the fuck ever, if these same assholes made an African mythology game and made one of the Orisha a white dude, the same douchbags applauding this and calling others KKK members would break their spines twisting themselves in knots about the outrage and cultural approiation.

Basically, the color of her skin isn't the issue, the double standard and hypocricy absolutely is the issue. Make whatever you want, but don't come back crying because Laura Bailey voiced Nadine Ross in Uncharted, or other similar ridiculous complaints.
 

WitchHunter

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Why? Gods are made up. They're entirely fictional, what does it matter what they look like?
And let's say they were real. Why would a pantheon look like the people who worshipped them? If gods look like humans, why would there be a restriction on which humans they look like? Do we assume they have DNA and reproduce genetically like we do, passing on genes to their children? If they have DNA, why are they gods and not humans? Gods could look like anyone, assuming they're restricted to even looking like people.
Why 99% of the fantasy games of today have the same monsters, hm? Zombies, dragons, trolls, ogres? WONDER WHY? Maybe because we mirror/copy things that are around us.
 

JoeBudden

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This is generally why I don't engage with these types of discussions. It's extremes of one side or the other. Someone has criticisms they must be "racist". How dare someone have a differing opinion but when the opposite side does the same thing it's A Okay, you're a cunt.

Maybe because the sentiment behind the criticism is actually racist? Just because it's a different opinion, doesn't mean it's not a racist opinion.

It's hilarious how these people want God of War to be true to Norse mythology as soon as a black character gets introduced. As if a Greek demi god running around killing gods like Baldur is true to Norse mythology.

Honestly, if the series needs to end eventually, I hope Kratos and Boy end up in Ancient Egypt and end up getting killed by some black gods just to piss off these people lol. Actually, even better, I hope they end up in some ancient Islamic mythology and getting killed by Muhammad himself. It won't ever happen, but that level of trolling would be insane lol.
 
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The comments here...damn.

Norse "mythos" is only the Eddas [...].
Season 5 No GIF by The Office

No.

I wish people would get this straight. First of all, all of the content present in the Prose Edda was composed in Christian times. Sturluson was a Christian who tried to compile what he thought he knew of Pagan myth and maybe even added some things here and there that was never Pagan to begin with. And even in the cases he might have adequately represented Pagan thought of the late syncretistic period, this thought cannot just be taken as Pagan "canon" at all - we see this for example with the idea of Valholl, which seems to be heavily inspired by Christianity and only present in the sources in the late Viking age. Before that, Germanic tribes didn't believe in any kind of concept that remotely resembles a "Hall of the slain" or something.
The Poetic Edda, on the other hand, is a different story. But even here, the author(s?) are all Christians, and we can't simply tell what content is authenticly Pagan and which isn't. We can't even properly assess the age of the source material in most cases for crying out loud.

So no, the Eddas are NOT an authentic representation of pre-Christian Germanic paganism. What is, on the other hand, are different types of sources like Runestones and other depictions of mythological content on archeological findings (Bracteats, for example).

And while I'm at it:
The idea of a distinguished "Norse" mythology is bullshit. There's only Germanic mythology, which the Norse form of paganism was/is a part of. Gods and their worship vary from region to region, even within subregions of subregions within single countries like Norway. The cult itself is Germanic in nature, not particularily "Norse". To speak of "Norse" mythology excludes the Dutch, the Germans and the English who believed in the exact same Gods, customs and traditions. "Norse" mythology as a concept is a product of Scandinavian nationalism, not more.
 

Jaysen

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I dont care, but you know there would be an outrage if they did a game on african mythology and threw in a white dude in the mix
I think people would be too shocked that a game about “African mythology” was made to give a shit. Look how people react when there’s just one black person in a game. Heads would explode if the entire game was black.
 
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MrFunSocks

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I dislike forced diversity, but people using lines like "it's not accurate to greek/norse mythology!" are just dumb, because none of God of War is accurate with greek/norse mythology nor does it have to be.

Was this character made black for forced diversity/"token black guy" reasons? Knowing it's sony, probably. Does it make any difference whatsoever in this case? Not that we can tell so far. If this character comes out to be making some point about diversity or gender or something then sure, call it out, but simply being black isn't a problem.

Also her game depiction comes from a very famous 19th century painting which was featured in the largest collection of Early-Germanic religious practices (Walhall: Die Götterwelt der Germanen). The painting is "Loki's Brood" by Emil Doepler and she is depicted as dark-skinned with long, messy hair.

This is the painting in question https://www.worldhistory.org/image/14571/lokis-brood/
You think the woman in that painting is dark skinned?
 
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mcjmetroid

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Everybody knows why this character is in the game, at this point do we need to even discuss it.
Yep exactly.

Is it a big deal? On the surface no.

What bothers me though when they do things like this where clearly the thought process was " we need a POC character, we didn't have any in the last game" is that its much less creative than thinking of a better well rounded character. You're casting primarily on looks. It doesn't feel organic.

Having black characters and strong female characters for that matter in games and movies these days often means that they're going to be boring safe characters because they're under a microscope from people.

Example: Remember Fat Thor from Marvel Avengers: End Game? Do you think they would have done something like that with the black panther or with Wonder Woman?

Not a chance.

This little black girl is going to be strong and sassy. That's going to be her character. For me I groan at stuff like this not because I'm racist which is what people will say.. no because these characters are constantly treated with kids gloves.