Jest Chillin
Member
Again, you're missing the point. People in general don't fear a "killing spree." They fear being killed.
The fear isn't one of "He's going to kill alot of people." The fear is "He's going to kill ME."
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Guy carries his ar-15 to go shopping at JC Penny
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Again, you're missing the point. People in general don't fear a "killing spree." They fear being killed.
The fear isn't one of "He's going to kill alot of people." The fear is "He's going to kill ME."
timmytheman123
Member
Not saying it doesn't happen but you know that this is rare. There is also a reason why they are not allowed at any place that serves alcohol.
There are not "so few" shootings. The U.S. holds the top spot for gun homicide rate among industrialized nations by a ludicrously giant margin.
You've backed yourself into a rhetorical corner here. By stipulating that there was essentially nothing to worry about at this J.C. Penney's while simultaneously claiming that anyone wielding a weapon can be a threat, you invite the assumption that if this individual had actually gone on a shooting rampage in the store, you'd be making the case that people shouldn't have been wary of him in the first place- after all he might have just been a reasonable gun owner exercising his legal rights.
timmytheman123
Member
Tell me did the people in the story have concern over him carrying the handgun or the rifle? If he would have walked in with just the handgun this would not even be a story.
Jest Chillin
Member
It really is not that rare at all. You don't hear about it because people typically don't report it simply because it becomes a He Said, She Said issue.
Jest Chillin
Member
The people in the story are not ALL people. Anecdotal evidence does not justify your stance.
Oh this is good...
Utah allows for open carry of unloaded firearms without a concealed firearm permit. "Unloaded" as it applies here, means that there is no round in the firing position (or chamber), and the firearm is at least two "mechanical actions" from firing. As carrying the firearm with the chamber empty, but with a full magazine, meets this definition (the handler must chamber a round, and then pull the trigger), this is a common work around for Utah residents who do not wish to acquire a permit. Without the permit, the firearm must be clearly visible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Utah#Overview
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Utah#Overview
timmytheman123
Member
Few shootings compared to the number of guns in circulation. Majority of the shootings is a result of crime in impoverished areas. Not like law abiding citizens who carry guns in public.
Hah, love it. Wonder if anyone has ever been caught with a round in the chamber before rolling up to wherever they pulled the trigger.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I don't know. Why don't you reach into their minds and let us know. If you sincerely believe a pistol wouldn't have raised any concern whatsoever in JC Penny's in light of recent events, I question your ability to understand the seriousness of weapons. Like the guy using them as a grandstanding fashion accessory.
Jest Chillin
Member
Well.. I can safely scratch Utah off of my list of places to see before I die and add it to my list of places to see if I want to risk dying.
timmytheman123
Member
But this thread is about this story. People were not alarmed as the police were not even called. I know gun laws vary by state same as stance on guns in public. I just hold a different view.
Given people can and do own multiple guns make deaths relative to the number of guns irrelevant. The number of shootings relative to gun owners is the one that matters, and I don't think that statistic is one that favors the US.
I feel MUCH more comfortable with people carrying concealed pistols because many people do for personal protection. usually when I see a gun pulled out in public it means someone is going to shoot something...considering there isnt deer normally grazing in malls id be worried.
As much as you try to argue against it, a guy carrying a rifle out in the open, in the mall...its not too big a leap to assume that he might not have the best of intentions. I dont know, maybe you live in a war torn nation where people gotta strap on AK's when they go shopping, but even in 'murica as much as we love our guns we arent used to seeing them get toted around in certain places (the mall, the laundromat, day care, etc).
GillianSeed79
Member
You should probably cross off West Virginia from your list too. Not that you would want to go there, but, if it makes you feel any better, this where I live and what my town square looked like today.
God, do you know what it's like being a liberal in this town, even slightly left of right? I'll give the guy in the OP credit that he's not wearing camo in a department store. People here don't grasp that concept.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say its safer than where you live, and i don't even know where that is.
Jest Chillin
Member
And this story does not represent everyone who was present when the incident happened.
Regardless of the article that began the thread, the topic at hand is whether or not The Man with the Assault Rifle was sound in his judgement.
timmytheman123
Member
I have seen people open carry in Walmart. I didn't even care. Like I said it differs state by state though.
Kite
Member
I'm actually not too opposed to concealed carry laws regarding handguns myself, but only a very select group of people. If you aren't active duty or retired law enforcement, active duty military, veteran, or a federal agent of some sort, you are just some random yahoo in my book. I don't know what kind of training you have gone through, I don't know if you know how to handle the tool you are carrying and I wouldn't trust you to handle any situation where you would feel the need to draw your weapon. If you want my trust than earn it, go enlist and finish out your contract. Slapping a NRA bumper sticker on your truck isn't enough.
Jest Chillin
Member
People can have as many demonstrations as they'd like. My issue with that Utah law is that anyone, anywhere can potentially Conceal Carry without a license. That's too much for me.
You'd be wrong as I live on a Military Installation. But I understand that like GillianSeed, you probably mistook my statement as being a bit more harsh than I intended it.
Incitefull, griping, deeply moving. You're words have changed my life.
Well that isn't what Utah law is so that's good i guess.
speculawyer
Member
You should probably cross off West Virginia from your list too. Not that you would want to go there, but, if it makes you feel any better, this where I live and what my town square looked like today.
God, do you know what it's like being a liberal in this town, even slightly left of right? I'll give the guy in the OP credit that he's not wearing camo in a department store. People here don't grasp that concept.
Yeah, aren't you the state that voted for some guy in prison instead of Obama to be the Democratic presidential candidate?
Is that banjo music I hear?
Shamrock7r
Member
So you would be ok with slavery, segregated schools based on race, etc...?
Jest Chillin
Member
Excuse me.. as it was quoted in the post I read, they can Open Carry rather than what I just wrote as Conceal Carry. Forgive me. It's still a loaded weapon possessed by a person who doesn't have a CC License.
I believe Utah is one of 44 states that allow Open Carry in some form.
I'll never understand people who open carry. If a crook is planning on doing something, the open carry person is going to be the first target. If someone has to carry, concealed is much better. You have the element of surprise. As far as I'm concerned the only reason to open carry is if you have a mini penis and want attention.
Jest Chillin
Member
I believe you're missing the point.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46657353&postcount=357
I feel like you are thinking that says you can carry a concealed weapon as long as it is not loaded. It doesn't.
Or if its the word "common" from a wiki article that is making you fret.
Always-honest
Banned
Well fuck yeah. You gotta protect yourself from nutcases with guns.
Jest Chillin
Member
No. It clearly says that you can Open Carry a Loaded Weapon so long as it's not Chambered without having to acquire a CC License.
Couple that with:
-No permit required to purchase
-No Owner License required
-Stand Your Ground
-Allowed to carry in Banks, Bars, State Parks (and more)
And that means that I would rather not be in the state.
Couple that with:
-No permit required to purchase
-No Owner License required
-Stand Your Ground
-Allowed to carry in Banks, Bars, State Parks (and more)
And that means that I would rather not be in the state.
Rocket Scientist
Member
You don't need an AR-15 to go shopping.
Nope, i'm here laughing.
What exactly did you think "Open Carry" meant?
The Majority of states have this same law.
So how you feel about certain laws is more important to your safety than say.. violent crime rates or homicide rates?
Jest Chillin
Member
Cutting out the majority of my quote doesn't change my mind or strengthen your argument.
Edit for your Edit:
And now you try to impart a stance upon me that I never stated in your edit. It was nice conversing with you.
Hematocryal
Banned
California had the highest number of murders from firearms last year.
http://m.guardiannews.com/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state
All that this means to me is that it isn't the availability of or type of guns that are the reason for these high numbers of murder. Because California has a shit ton of laws and restrictions in regards to firearms. Shouldn't Texas be at the top? With all the guns and lack of restrictions on guns? In Texas people openly pack heat 24/7. My point is that guns are NOT the problem. What would restricting them do? The UK is SUPER tight on guns and STILL have a high gun murder rate in proportion to the population and availability of fire arms. People that want to shoot and murder other people WILL, and people who buy guns to enjoy them as a hobby will NOT. Everyone is barking up the wrong tree. It sure as shit isn't violence in video games and movies XD anyone that murders another human being because of a video game was disturbed and dangerously impressionable and as far as I'm concerned a ticking time bomb in the first place. It's all a scape goat so that no one faces the real issue. Which is clearly the sensationalism with which American media covers such horrific events. Anywhere else it is on the news but covered with as much zest as the construction of speed bumps. Not 24 hours a day for 5 days with speculation and trash.
The only thing that increased gun control will do is make it so the people who use them responsibly and carefully won't have them and the people murdering others who don't care WILL.
If someone wants to walk around with a gun JUST in case or they like to, far be it from me to stop them. People show off guns and enjoy them for the same reason people have flashy cars and jewelry, but there's not nearly as large a stigma for those people, that's society for you. I'm a lot more worried about someone hitting me with 4,000 pound vehicle than I am being shot, but car accidents don't draw NEARLY as large a crowd or controversy. Isn't that convenient?
People that don't like guns will bitch all day about them but I'll bet those same people have drivers licenses, but hey, why be objective when you can be a hypocrite? Where does the line get drawn? Will we outlaw alcohol(we all know how THAT went)? There are HUNDREDS of accidents involving alcohol every year, but wait most people like drinking a beer huh? And when it's done responsibly is fine, so why should responsible drinkers be punished? Why should responsible gun owners be punished? That's my point. At the end of the day if your opinions are in the minority you are gonna be shit out of luck. Rant over.
http://m.guardiannews.com/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state
All that this means to me is that it isn't the availability of or type of guns that are the reason for these high numbers of murder. Because California has a shit ton of laws and restrictions in regards to firearms. Shouldn't Texas be at the top? With all the guns and lack of restrictions on guns? In Texas people openly pack heat 24/7. My point is that guns are NOT the problem. What would restricting them do? The UK is SUPER tight on guns and STILL have a high gun murder rate in proportion to the population and availability of fire arms. People that want to shoot and murder other people WILL, and people who buy guns to enjoy them as a hobby will NOT. Everyone is barking up the wrong tree. It sure as shit isn't violence in video games and movies XD anyone that murders another human being because of a video game was disturbed and dangerously impressionable and as far as I'm concerned a ticking time bomb in the first place. It's all a scape goat so that no one faces the real issue. Which is clearly the sensationalism with which American media covers such horrific events. Anywhere else it is on the news but covered with as much zest as the construction of speed bumps. Not 24 hours a day for 5 days with speculation and trash.
The only thing that increased gun control will do is make it so the people who use them responsibly and carefully won't have them and the people murdering others who don't care WILL.
If someone wants to walk around with a gun JUST in case or they like to, far be it from me to stop them. People show off guns and enjoy them for the same reason people have flashy cars and jewelry, but there's not nearly as large a stigma for those people, that's society for you. I'm a lot more worried about someone hitting me with 4,000 pound vehicle than I am being shot, but car accidents don't draw NEARLY as large a crowd or controversy. Isn't that convenient?
People that don't like guns will bitch all day about them but I'll bet those same people have drivers licenses, but hey, why be objective when you can be a hypocrite? Where does the line get drawn? Will we outlaw alcohol(we all know how THAT went)? There are HUNDREDS of accidents involving alcohol every year, but wait most people like drinking a beer huh? And when it's done responsibly is fine, so why should responsible drinkers be punished? Why should responsible gun owners be punished? That's my point. At the end of the day if your opinions are in the minority you are gonna be shit out of luck. Rant over.
uhhh what? I cut out the majority of your quote to save space.
This is pointless, never mind.
Here it is in more plain English: If Utah is not safe enough for you, basically just stay out of America.. because it's about as safe as its gets.
I'm sure you didn't know this and just saw "scary laws" and decided it was a dangerous place, right?
Even better. You're such a delight.
Well then you just made my day a little brighter. If you're in america get out while you still can.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Not the car accident argument again, lol.
Let me stop you right there.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
teh_J0kerer
Member
So if I take out my gun and shoot him thinking Im going to save the day, how many years do I get?
yn-neko hates a cat
Banned
I amount of truth this carries with it is so heavy, thick and bitter that people will not touch it with a 100 foot pole. It sickens me just how right on the mark you are.
Jest Chillin
Member
I said it was a place I did not want to visit due to it's Gun Laws. Everything else you've taken your own liberty with.
Link
The Autumn Wind
Utah has the Stand Your Ground law, so none. Congratulations.
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