Yeah, progress isn't leveling up, it's the knowledge of how to get by encounters as efficiently as possible.
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Hard games aren't fun
- Thread starter enigmatic_alex44
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Yeah, progress isn't leveling up, it's the knowledge of how to get by encounters as efficiently as possible.
It depends on what you want out of an experience. Difficulty is a nuanced subject, sometimes games handle it poorly with a terrible difficulty curve, others escalate challenge at the right pace to keep the experience refreshing.
I've played enough games now in enough genres, and with modern titles trying to appeal to wider audiences, the max difficulty is sometimes the only mode that really challenges me. Not challenging in the way that I punishingly die all the time, but simply that the game forces me to think how to deal with a threat, and avoid decisions that are just stupid or crazily inefficient.
Sometimes I like a game enough that I want to gain some degree of mastery over it, and normal or easy modes never ask that of a player. Other times you can tell higher difficulty modes are what the dev intended for the game's design, as lower difficulty can let you get away with being kind of an idiot without failure. Challenge forces you to learn, learning brings out the best of the design, and the best emergent moments come when your back is against the wall vs. breezing through things.
Oh, and AI on lower difficulties can be stupid to the point of it breaks my immersion in the world itself.
I've played enough games now in enough genres, and with modern titles trying to appeal to wider audiences, the max difficulty is sometimes the only mode that really challenges me. Not challenging in the way that I punishingly die all the time, but simply that the game forces me to think how to deal with a threat, and avoid decisions that are just stupid or crazily inefficient.
Sometimes I like a game enough that I want to gain some degree of mastery over it, and normal or easy modes never ask that of a player. Other times you can tell higher difficulty modes are what the dev intended for the game's design, as lower difficulty can let you get away with being kind of an idiot without failure. Challenge forces you to learn, learning brings out the best of the design, and the best emergent moments come when your back is against the wall vs. breezing through things.
Oh, and AI on lower difficulties can be stupid to the point of it breaks my immersion in the world itself.
And people are looking for different things from games. It's something we as a community tend to easily lose track of.
That's why we end up with a bunch of blanket statements aching for a "for me" at the end of 'em.
Bloodporne
Member
I feel the opposite actually, easy games aren't very fun to me because they don't really engage me or make me feel like I learned any sort of skill.
I'm 34 and work 50 hours a week. I don't want to play something bland and easy because I feel like it's a waste of time.
If I'm not being challenged in some way I often just get bored. I don't always play hard games, or even mechanically deep ones, but I definitely skew towards that kind of thing.
I feel most engaged when I need to use everything at my disposal just to survive. This can mean all kinds of things - a survival horror game with combat and limited ammo, an atmospheric and hostile open world game like STALKER, or even something focused on time management like XCOM. It doesn't even need to be a hard game, hell I love the time limits in the Persona and Dead Rising games because I need that pressure.
Let's use Fallout New Vegas as an example. Its hardcore mode implemented some things like stricter carry limits, as well as food and sleep requirements. Some people think of those limitations as strictly annoying and not fun, but they enhanced the experience for me greatly. I love managing that kind of stuff and having to plan my gameplay around it. Now I don't think that mode would have saved FO3 from being bland and aimless but it really helped me enjoy NV.
Monster Hunter is probably my favorite series because it will take anything you throw at it and provide a challenge. I don't find the game hard anymore per se, so I'm not playing it for masochistic thrills. I just like that I can dedicate all my thought and energy into the game and it won't just break and become piss easy. It's engaging enough to keep me interested while never becoming frustrating.
Now competitive experiences I think of in a completely different way. I'm not one to shy away from them but that's a different conversation.
If I'm not being challenged in some way I often just get bored. I don't always play hard games, or even mechanically deep ones, but I definitely skew towards that kind of thing.
I feel most engaged when I need to use everything at my disposal just to survive. This can mean all kinds of things - a survival horror game with combat and limited ammo, an atmospheric and hostile open world game like STALKER, or even something focused on time management like XCOM. It doesn't even need to be a hard game, hell I love the time limits in the Persona and Dead Rising games because I need that pressure.
Let's use Fallout New Vegas as an example. Its hardcore mode implemented some things like stricter carry limits, as well as food and sleep requirements. Some people think of those limitations as strictly annoying and not fun, but they enhanced the experience for me greatly. I love managing that kind of stuff and having to plan my gameplay around it. Now I don't think that mode would have saved FO3 from being bland and aimless but it really helped me enjoy NV.
Monster Hunter is probably my favorite series because it will take anything you throw at it and provide a challenge. I don't find the game hard anymore per se, so I'm not playing it for masochistic thrills. I just like that I can dedicate all my thought and energy into the game and it won't just break and become piss easy. It's engaging enough to keep me interested while never becoming frustrating.
Now competitive experiences I think of in a completely different way. I'm not one to shy away from them but that's a different conversation.
The Artisan
Member
your avatar makes me lol so hard
Title should had been "I think Hard games aren't fun" instead of stating your opinion like it is a fact. I like Hard games and find them fun because they give you a reason to think harder, try your best to accomplish something instead of giving it to you on a plate. My only issue with Nintendo games is that, they make excellent games but they are usually really easy, thankfully they have started putting some harder difficulties there, like their Zelda series.
I'll agree with OP to an extent. I like a challenge in something like Monster Hunter or maybe even Fire Emblem where you really have to think through the best approach for a given scenario. But they're not punishingly difficult like the Soulsborne games. There's a balance between challenging and obnoxious.
momshotdad
Member
If I'm plowing through a game with little to no resistance, I get bored pretty quickly. It's the challenge that keeps me coming back to prove to myself that I can get past it if I prepare and keep trying.
hydrophilic attack
Member
you should play souls if you don't enjoy hard games
arturo2666
Banned
What's wrong with an experience not being fun though? The majority of great films aren't "fun" but they're still worthwhile for other reasons. Joy is not the only reason to experience things.
Miniature Kaiju
Member
Fun really depends on what you want to get out of playing a game. Some people want to be challenged, some people want to read a cool story, some people just want to accomplish something, like clearing a certain number of Candy Crush stages. Fun can only be described as a enjoyable, pleasant sensation that arises from an activity, and it comes in many different forms.
For instance, Ikaruga on Hard can not only be fun, but also extremely relaxing - it requires so much focus, attention and skill that, at some point, your brain kind of shuts down and you zone out, no thoughts, just motion, zen-like.
For instance, Ikaruga on Hard can not only be fun, but also extremely relaxing - it requires so much focus, attention and skill that, at some point, your brain kind of shuts down and you zone out, no thoughts, just motion, zen-like.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
OP having a lot of trouble understanding that games aren't equally difficult for every player. Mess.
You're afraid of losing progess, but that is exactly what's so fun about them. Progressing in Soulslike games feels like an achievement. In fact, I'd argue that progressing in easy games is a bigger waste of time, because all you did was put in the minimum amount of time. The anger is always followed by pure joy, if you let it.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I think a game needs to be at least a bit challenging to be any fun, but nothing beats super difficult, yet very carefully designed games. The best moment in gaming I ever had was reaching Monkey Ball Master (you need to finish the 60 levels that preceed the Master mode with only two lives and the amount of lives you obtain on the go) - absolutely amazing. Of course it is important that the path to victory itself must be immensely fun, so this kind of challenge really is best served in an arcady environment.
On the other hand, I absolutely do not like games that are difficult but can be made easier by busywork or even additional players assisting. Independent of the fact that I hate the slow mechanics of Dark Souls (everything should always be fast and immediate), it had already lost to me because you could improve your character not by skill, but by patience and thus lower the challenge of game content. A challenge should be entirely designed for a very specific set of actions and effects that cannot be changed in any way.
On the other hand, I absolutely do not like games that are difficult but can be made easier by busywork or even additional players assisting. Independent of the fact that I hate the slow mechanics of Dark Souls (everything should always be fast and immediate), it had already lost to me because you could improve your character not by skill, but by patience and thus lower the challenge of game content. A challenge should be entirely designed for a very specific set of actions and effects that cannot be changed in any way.
Gravy Boat
Member
That's exaclty what Souls games are though, I don't understand.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Monster Hunter is really quite close to Dark Souls, but Dark Souls is not nearly as challenging as Fire Emblem from a purely mental point of view. The strategies of Dark Souls come down to learning the move patterns of the enemies and when there is enough time for a strike. This is not really that strategic at all imo.
It's something you'll like or you won't. I can't explain it in a way that'll make you suddenly want to play harder games. I personally play games because I often like a more active experience than just going through the motions of an easy game or watching a movie. I want to be challenged, I want to really think and strategize, and I want to struggle through tough platforming. Lots and lots of games develop really fun and cool systems and then they fail to use them to their potential, or even force their players to learn the systems. I don't want to skate through a game. I want to learn the games I play and earn my progress.
I'm sure it's probably a side effect of growing up playing lots of NES games. I have zero qualms about repeating sections until I learn them fully and progress. It's rewarding for me.
I'm sure it's probably a side effect of growing up playing lots of NES games. I have zero qualms about repeating sections until I learn them fully and progress. It's rewarding for me.
adamantypants
Member
Depends on the game. I finally beat Uncharted 4 last week. I forgot I set it to Hard when I started. Didn't really notice a difference. Most other games though, I generally set to normal or even easy because I game a fraction of what I used to. Like I said, I just beat Uncharted but started that file on launch day.
AppleSeason
Member
I can emphatise with this.
Difficulty for me is also tied to how much time I have for gaming, which nowadays is maybe an hour every two days. While I like the challenge of the soul games, a hard game in which I can't progress and makes me feel like I have achieved nothing in that hour (much less blowing steam and adding frustration), I will end lowering the difficulty if I am interested in seeing the end of the story, or dropping it completely.
Souls and Megaten are the exceptions for me. Although they are games reserved for when I am on vacations with a lot of time to spare.
PS: A big problem with lowering the difficulty is that there is no middle term sometimes. It goes from too hard to being a joke. It's hard to tailor the challenge.
Difficulty for me is also tied to how much time I have for gaming, which nowadays is maybe an hour every two days. While I like the challenge of the soul games, a hard game in which I can't progress and makes me feel like I have achieved nothing in that hour (much less blowing steam and adding frustration), I will end lowering the difficulty if I am interested in seeing the end of the story, or dropping it completely.
Souls and Megaten are the exceptions for me. Although they are games reserved for when I am on vacations with a lot of time to spare.
PS: A big problem with lowering the difficulty is that there is no middle term sometimes. It goes from too hard to being a joke. It's hard to tailor the challenge.
No. Monster Hunter and Fire Emblem require you to plan in advancewhat team you want to comprise of, what skills/gear for what monster, etc. Souls just makes you learn from mistakes/trial and error rather than planning/strategy.
Gravy Boat
Member
I know, it's just surprising to see someone say they like MH because it's challenging but not Souls because it's too challenging.
Umm, I don't think you're going to find a lot of people who think that finishing Bloodborne is harder than 1000000%ing Isaac. Like, maybe 3 or 4 at most, lol.
Am I the only one who finds it hard to believe you love the combat, but are not willing enough to actually learn the combat systems so that you stop dying over and over?
A more fitting analogy would be saying that you love the randomness, combat and general rogue-like nature of Isaac, but never made it past The Basement, want to have every item and character unlocked, clear The Void, beat Delirium, but only if its as hard as beating Larry Jr.
So basically just sightseeing and not really playing the game.
I agree with OP, but if a game is too easy, it can be boring too. That's not to say "easy" games can't be fun (difficulty isn't always to do with beating enemies or bosses, etc.) - but they need to provide the player with a number of things to do each with little challenges to keep them entertained.
Example: I wouldn't call Animal Crossing a "difficult" game by any means, but I would say that it's difficult to catch certain bugs, fish, difficult to maintain your town and check in it on every day, etc.
Apples and oranges.
But Zelda II, fuck that game it's not fun at all.
Example: I wouldn't call Animal Crossing a "difficult" game by any means, but I would say that it's difficult to catch certain bugs, fish, difficult to maintain your town and check in it on every day, etc.
Apples and oranges.
But Zelda II, fuck that game it's not fun at all.
The Salt Life
Banned
I'm all for hard games, but give me a easy mode for those hard games so I can see the story and feel like I didn't waste $60. I don't care if the game labels with a big neon tag next to my name saying "easy mode baby"
I want to see the rest of the game.
Bloodborne is right up my alley, I played a quarter of it, too difficult for me, that makes me mad because I want to see where the madness leads.
I want to see the rest of the game.
Bloodborne is right up my alley, I played a quarter of it, too difficult for me, that makes me mad because I want to see where the madness leads.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
Easy games aren't fun. First thing I do every time I play a game is look up hard mode and make sure it's not broken. Second thing? I select Hard Mode. I get way more out of games when I'm made to really understand and master their mechanics. Fuck breezing through games. That shit is why I haven't played Super Mario Galaxy since like 2009 (but I'll play Galaxy 2 every year or two)
Gravy Boat
Member
I actually recall someone making a thread because they were offended that they got called a baby by picking the easiest difficulty in the latest Wolfenstein.
Red Liquorice
Member
This comes off as pure elitism. Summoning people isn't required to beat any Soulslike, nor is farming (if that's what you mean by "patience").
You're really missing out by not playing Bloodborne and Nioh.
Gaf mantra right here
I think challenge enriches a game world, but it's not required for that to be the case. An easy difficulty helps the heroic narrative of Breath of Fire 3 and 4 while difficult struggles help us fell claustrophobic and scared in Breath of Fire 5. The easy satisfaction of the combat of Wind Waker are as important to it's cheery feel as it's visuals, while Majora's dark tone wouldn't be as effective without the constant threat of the moon's time limit.
Challenge improves the moment to moment of a game, making no progress but enjoying the game is more valuable than beating an experience that would be more immersive if it were harder.
I think you have a narrow definition of progress. When I play a really difficult game it might be more akin to practicing with a musical instrument than reading a book. Performing the same section again but better is a form of progress to me, even if it's not in the narrative or mechanical sense. I like different forms of progression for different moods, it doesn't really matter how much time I have.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Also see people refusing to play Kids difficulty on Viewtiful Joe.
Berserking Guts
Member
If you're playing a good challenging game then there's no such thing as "losing progress". Unless the game is mind wiping you...
Fbh
Member
Different tastes.
I love games that offer a decent challenge. I think the Dark Souls franchise has the perfect difficulty level for me. Hard enough that you need to concentrate, that you feel challenged and that overcoming obstacles feels rewarding, but not so challenging that you are supposed to replay the same segment 60 times and be stucked at the same "checkpoint" for hours.
I love games that offer a decent challenge. I think the Dark Souls franchise has the perfect difficulty level for me. Hard enough that you need to concentrate, that you feel challenged and that overcoming obstacles feels rewarding, but not so challenging that you are supposed to replay the same segment 60 times and be stucked at the same "checkpoint" for hours.
I think you are assigning too much to the word. I don't love love love the combat. I just like it. Is that better?
I found bloodborne very hard (admittedly, stopped at a part that I thought was unfair plus had spiders (with the eye shooting down on you and people joining my game to kill me). I'd love to go back for some co-op and beat it but for me, playing solo just isn't as fun but thats more of an "on average games are more fun co-op than solo"
The Void floor itself is super easy but the delirium fight is completely unnecessarily unfair that relies way more on luck of items than skill. A below average run can beat Isaac/Blue Baby but just a decent run can't beat delirium. I would say more people find Souls harder than Isaac especially since Isaac doesn't punish you for dying but Souls/Bloodborne does.
Is it not fun because the subject matter is challenging and unappealing or is it not fun because it becomes a repetitious loop that blocks progression? Something can fit under the general category of "not fun" for very different reasons.
For example, I find the themes and lore of Dark Souls III to be the fun part it's challenging; however, I had a headache when finishing the Soul of Cinder after attempting for 2-3 hours, not a sense of accomplishment.
Neoleo2143
Member
It depends on what kind of challenge is being presented. I just want interesting mechanics really and situations that ask me to use them. I don't like perfect pixel jumps because that stifles my creativity, it's an execution challenge but knowledge wise as the solution is already known which is frustrating. There's nothing to really think about.
Souls games are interesting in that you can go through the game without most of the mechanics at all yet it remains engaging likely due to the varied encounter design and complex maps.
Souls games are interesting in that you can go through the game without most of the mechanics at all yet it remains engaging likely due to the varied encounter design and complex maps.
I hate when harder difficulty just means all enemies have longer health bars. Would like to see more intelligent enemies on hard mode rather than just more resilient. There's not really that much more skill required. Difficult shouldn't mean it takes arbitrarily longer to complete.
Vincent Grayson
Member
I've never been one for "hard" games, but I get why people like them.
For me, gaming is about a variety of fun experiences, exploring new worlds, experiencing story and characters and events in a way I do not in movies, books, etc.
I have not ever played for any kind of satisfaction or accomplishment, so the notion of it feeling better to overcome a tough challenge is totally foreign to me. Not in general, mind you, just in games.
I'm definitely in the category of people who instantly lose interest in a game if I have to repeat things over and over to "master" them before you can go to the next part.
For me, gaming is about a variety of fun experiences, exploring new worlds, experiencing story and characters and events in a way I do not in movies, books, etc.
I have not ever played for any kind of satisfaction or accomplishment, so the notion of it feeling better to overcome a tough challenge is totally foreign to me. Not in general, mind you, just in games.
I'm definitely in the category of people who instantly lose interest in a game if I have to repeat things over and over to "master" them before you can go to the next part.
PensivePen
Member
A game that's challenging offers me the chance to experiment and master the interplay between its mechanics, challenges and level design. If a game is too easy, then there's little incentive or reward for creativity or learning. Exploration is rewarded when finding new places is both a test in and of itself, and also full of tension as you face new threats. If the destination is easy to get to, then the journey lacks purpose. Exciting moments like eking out a victory on your last pixel of health, or suffering a crushing defeat right at the very end of a level are only possible when the possibility to lose is real. A coin flip in which both sides are heads isn't interesting, and neither is a battle in which I know I'll always win no matter how poorly I perform.
I don't play games simply to achieve progress without purpose. I'd rather have a more fulfilling experience with the time I do have to play games, than play through a lot of games, but not get anything fulfilling out of their gameplay. I'm not saying that I never play games to experience their story/characters, but I much prefer being able to get something out of their gameplay too. When games are too easy it turns the gameplay into a chore.
I don't play games simply to achieve progress without purpose. I'd rather have a more fulfilling experience with the time I do have to play games, than play through a lot of games, but not get anything fulfilling out of their gameplay. I'm not saying that I never play games to experience their story/characters, but I much prefer being able to get something out of their gameplay too. When games are too easy it turns the gameplay into a chore.
Gravy Boat
Member
Not sure I understand the last part. If I die in Souls, unless I'm moving at a ridiculously slow pace I'm going to lose 15-20 minutes worth of progress max. In Isaac, I need to start the game from the beginning.
I'm not saying I feel punished by dying in Issac, but there's no metric by which you lose more progress when you die in a Souls game. I say this as someone who took more than 4 hours to get past the first lantern in Bloodborne.
Ideally, a game's challenge should be used to push the player towards the intended playstyle. Learning to properly use the tools and systems at your disposal is a big part of the experience. A properly balanced game should be relatively easy on its default setting when you play it right, and punishing when you don't.
I respectfuly disagree.
Especially regarding Ninja Gaiden, it's a game that rewards you the more you play it and get used to it. At least the first one (Black), don't know about II, but I assume it's similar.
More games should have Easy mode, tho, for those who just want to experience the story.
There's a distinct line between "fair" and "hard".
The best games (ie Souls) are designed well enough that if you pay attention and use intelligence from the get go you can actually survive a long time and really thrive, even in your first playthrough.
That's because they're "fair" rather than just bluntly "hard" for the sake of it.
The best games (ie Souls) are designed well enough that if you pay attention and use intelligence from the get go you can actually survive a long time and really thrive, even in your first playthrough.
That's because they're "fair" rather than just bluntly "hard" for the sake of it.
I guess the difference is in that Souls, you can be at one part for a couple hours replaying the same part in hopes to beat it.
In Isaac, maybe its just me, but there isn't "progress" in the same way of souls. If you lose a run, thats it. You don't go back to it.
Each game of Isaac takes 30-45 minutes. Souls is a 30 hour game.
This is the answer.
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