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[Gravy Boat]

I guess the difference is in that Souls, you can be at one part for a couple hours replaying the same part in hopes to beat it.

In Isaac, maybe its just me, but there isn't "progress" in the same way of souls. If you lose a run, thats it. You don't go back to it.

Each game of Isaac takes 30-45 minutes. Souls is a 30 hour game.

But you're still progressing as long as you're learning. 'I just lost x number of souls' isn't losing progression, and thinking like that is a terrible misunderstaing of how to approach those games. I'm not even a big souls elitest, Bloodborne is the only one I've played to completion.

In souls once you beat an area or a boss you were stuck on, you never really need to do it again in the same state (you need to pass through areas again but you're usually levelled up/better at the game by then), so if you die you immediately return to tackling whatever you just failed at. In Issac if I die, I could need to replay several levels again that I just about scraped through last time.

 

[Pit]

I kind of agree with the "PEOPLE LIKE DIFFERENT THINGS, WHY IS THIS A THREAD" etc.

But to put my 2c in, hard games like the soulsborne and most recently nioh are fun, but not for those who just pick it up and go. You really are investing in the genre (I know its not it's own genre). And your fun is a culmination of all the games you play in its series'. Ofc some people won't like them, but they aren't impossible to approach.

 

[Voidance]

I'm inclined to agree with the OP. Hard games aren't my idea of fun, and the only challenging games I enjoy are puzzle games.

 

[Timu]

Disagreed, I have more of a rewarding experience with them than games that take no effort to get through.

 

[Molemitts]

The kind of challenge I like is something like Mario 3D World or New Super Luigi U on Wii U, where the base game is a decent challenge, but going for all collectibles or the extra levels at the end like Champion's Road is for those looking for something more. Or super bosses in RPGs that are totally optional and not tied to the main story like the Weapons in Final Fantasy. Games like Bayonetta where the normal difficulty is just right also appeal to me. Something like Ninja Gaiden 2 where I have to struggle just to get through the main game though on normal? Not my cup of tea.

Dark Souls is my favourite game of all time and I absolutely agree with the above paragraph. I was put off the souls games for a while because of difficulty but I did enjoy for various reasons including how the challenge works with the rest of the game. But I do think what you mentioned is a brilliant approach to challenge.

 

[Yoshi]

This comes off as pure elitism. Summoning people isn't required to beat any Soulslike, nor is farming (if that's what you mean by "patience").

You're really missing out by not playing Bloodborne and Nioh.

It is not elitism, I just don't like that the difficulty is not fixed by the developer, making the game easier through busywork is just a bad practive imo.

I don't think I miss out on much with Bloodborne and Nioh, considering I personally feel Dark Souls 3 is the most boring game I have played since GTA5 (which I, contrary to the consensus, find to be abysmal).

 

[Dynasty8]

Easy games aren't fun for me.

 

[Omnistalgic]

Challenge is fun for a lot of people. Ain't much more to it.

Really...

If a game is too easy it's absolutely boring.

 

[Mohasus]

The tougher the challenge, the bigger the satisfaction when you overcome it.

That said, I don't think every "hard" mode is well done. If I'm going to do the same thing, just longer (as in, increased enemy HP), then I'm not going to play on hard.

On the other hand, a well done hard mode makes you truly appreciate the game design. For example, Bayonetta is pretty much a new game at higher difficulties. I'm playing DKC: Tropical Freeze on hard right now, and it really makes me appreciate the level design in the game, something I didn't bother to pay attention when I played on normal, it was just a stroll.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

I like games that are a tad too challenging over those that are too easy actually. Getting frustrated has more potential for eventual relief than plain boredom.

 

[NastyBook]

Se we can learn to call the game bullshit fucking artificial difficulty, what a fucking a shitshow fuck this stupid game it's pure bullshit.

If it isn't Souls/BB/Nioh, I cry artificial difficulty from the highest mountain. Because for the former games, it was more than likely my fault for dying in them.

EDIT: Assassin's Creed games are the biggest culprits of artificial difficulty bullshit for me. "Oh, you just started a chase scene mission? Enjoy watching your target climb over this open window that you're about crawl in and out of until he gets away."

 

[HotHamBoy]

I bet you order honey barbecue wings...

Under-rated post.

 

[bronk]

But hard games are the most fun.

 

[_Spr_Drnk]

Under-rated post.

Yeah, going for the spiciest dish over your mates always makes you the real man of the group.

 

[SciencePilot]

Hard action games are fun because I like adrenaline rush. I don't get that on easy games, even if they're really action packed or whatever.

Hard strategy games are fun because I like thinking. Solving puzzles is a thing people enjoy, right?

In general, it feels good to triumph over something difficult. I feel nothing when I triumph over something easy.

 

[Rapscallion]

Depends on how it's presented I suppose. I don't generally enjoy games that punish you for encountering something new; a player shouldn't lose tons of progress because they didn't get the certain gimmick or pace of the boss immediately. This can usually be alleviated by save points being near boss fights, but some games want to be over-the-top and not give you that option less you want to backtrack and risk other dangers.

It's one of the reasons the Souls series hasn't appealed to me. I recognize that they're good games and that they have elements other games would like, but I just don't have the time or patients for games like them.

 

[Nameless]

Deep technical gameplay goes hand in hand with a challenge imo. What's the point of mastering complex mechanics if you're fighting cupcakes that pose no threat? Plus it's way more satisfying destroying enemies that could actually kill you if you fuck up or drop your guard.

To go even further I'd say most games I play are more fun on harder difficulties.

 

[StrategyFan]

good games are about making choices

choices don't matter unless there are consequences for making the wrong ones

i play bad "games" that aren't about making choices on lower difficulties though (eg. naughty dog's interactive movies)

 

[Not Spaceghost]

Easy games are borrrinnnngggg though

 

[E-flux]

Like I can't imagine playing something for 2 hours, then losing all your progress and having to repeat the same section over and over again (losing all your souls in Demon's Souls for example, first and last game of that series I played). I'd quit! Never mind my friend that got so mad once he flung his Xbox down his drive way and it broke into pieces. The only series I stick with despite the frustration these days is the SMT games. At least there you can generally level up if you get stuck like most RPGs. Something like Ninja Gaiden 2 or Bloodborne? Forget it.

.

Even if you lose the ingame progress in games like that you won't lose what you learnt.

I used to relax after school by playing dota semi competitively, there were so many things to learn and master that even though i was getting my ass handed to me by better players i was constantly learning new things and i could forget all of the shit i was going through outside the game, i had days where straight after school i played 8-10 hours of dota straight since it was the only way to keep my mind off of things.

Games that have unfair difficulty are usually pretty bad, steam is full of 2d roguelite platformers like that but when a challenge is done right it's like a good home cooked meal.

 

[Tevious]

Easy games aren't fun.

I enjoy challenges because the reward factor is greater when you accomplish things and make progress. As long as the game is fair about it and not putting you in complete bullshit scenarios that aren't beatable unless you get extremely lucky.

 

[KillerDark]

I think a game needs to be at least a bit challenging to be any fun, but nothing beats super difficult, yet very carefully designed games. The best moment in gaming I ever had was reaching Monkey Ball Master (you need to finish the 60 levels that preceed the Master mode with only two lives and the amount of lives you obtain on the go) - absolutely amazing. Of course it is important that the path to victory itself must be immensely fun, so this kind of challenge really is best served in an arcady environment.

On the other hand, I absolutely do not like games that are difficult but can be made easier by busywork or even additional players assisting. Independent of the fact that I hate the slow mechanics of Dark Souls (everything should always be fast and immediate), it had already lost to me because you could improve your character not by skill, but by patience and thus lower the challenge of game content. A challenge should be entirely designed for a very specific set of actions and effects that cannot be changed in any way.

Do you not like any rpg's/other games where your characters gets more powerful over time through playing then?

 

[arturo2666]

Is it not fun because the subject matter is challenging and unappealing or is it not fun because it becomes a repetitious loop that blocks progression? Something can fit under the general category of "not fun" for very different reasons.

For example, I find the themes and lore of Dark Souls III to be the fun part it's challenging; however, I had a headache when finishing the Soul of Cinder after attempting for 2-3 hours, not a sense of accomplishment.

Yeah, I'm in agreement with this. I was just pointing out that the OP seemed to be equating "fun" with "good" or "worthwhile" when that is most certainly not the case across any form of media.

 

[antibolo]

I'd rather watch a TV show or read a book than play a video game if it has no challenge to it. I just don't see the point. Only a handful of video games have ever managed to create a narrative that can be considered worthwhile on its own merits, rather than something that is just there to provide context.

Totally hate the Souls games though, for various design reasons.

 

[Eppy Thatcher]

Progress to me doesn't = progression in the actual game.

Progress means getting better, smarter, faster at the game I'm playing.

If I spend days on end on one level/boss/fight that was giving me the hardest time in the world and I stay with it and eventually dominate the hell out of it I take with me every lesson i learned from that roadblock into the next levels or fights or what have you.

Same reason why replay value is a thing. If just "making progress" forward through a story or a world or whatever was the only thing that was fun then... well there would be no real reason to play the game again? And without any challenge why not just watch the game youtube?

BUT ... that's the rub. Fun does not mean the same thing to everyone. Handing my girlfriend the sticks to Bloodborne would just be a cruel experiment on how quickly i can turn her off from playing video games for the night. Someone asking me to show them how to best fight Lady Maria???!!!

 

[-MD-]

"Hard" modes feel like "normal" for me most of the time and give me little to no frustration.

I don't like playing anything less than "hard" because most games are tuned to just let you run through the game without thinking too much or requiring the person actually learn how to play the game on default modes. On "hard" at least you have to occasionally think about what you're doing, sometimes you'll actually have to use an item to stay alive. It's a much more fun way to play games.

"Normal" & "easy" modes put me to sleep because they don't ask anything from the player, it's just cruise control.

 

[Big Blue]

In Souls games, progress is measured by knowledge of the enemies and your environment. Who cares if you just permanently lost 1.2 million souls. Souls are cheap.

Limiting checkpoints is a lazy way to make a game harder. That's about my only complaint of the Souls series. I think the Bayonetta series has perfected difficulty.

 

[Not Spaceghost]

Limiting checkpoints is a lazy way to make a game harder.

Too many checkpoints and your incentive to try hard, learn and adapt is turned into a throw yourself at a wall until it cracks situation.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Limiting checkpoints is a lazy way to make a game harder.

It's not. Limiting checkpoints forces the player to learn stages more intimately, and prevents players from just using trial and error to mindlessly force their way through a stage (which is a viable solution for anything with frequent checkpoints).

 

[Pilgrimzero]

I enjoyed them when I had time for them. Which was before I got a real job and started a family.

Now my gaming time is limited and I have no desire to try and try and try again until I get it right.

 

[Hoho for breakfast]

I don't usually like hard games either. Bloodborne is one of my favorite games of this gen though. Probably top 10 all time. It's the only Souls game I've played too.

And yes you can get over powered in Bloodborne. I'm doing it right now. And I'm paying them all back for everything they did to me lol.

I played most of it with the strategy guide right by me. I'd recommend buying it + the game and giving it an honest chance. Or at least have an online walkthrough or Youtube ready. Either way you should really just give it a real chance and I think you'd understand.

 

[Neptonic]

Like I can't imagine playing something for 2 hours, then losing all your progress and having to repeat the same section over and over again (losing all your souls in Demon's Souls for example, first and last game of that series I played). I'd quit!

Your souls aren't progress in Demon/Dark Souls. I'm pretty sure the game is designed so that you only really need the souls that you get from defeating a boss to level up.
Getting through the zone is your progress. I can't think of one zone in DkS1 that has 2 hours of progress lost if you die. Bonfires are close enough together and zones are small enough that you should have like 20 minutes lost max. Your run through a zone should get shorter and shorter each time you play as you memorize enemy placements and traps. Also if you have 2 hours worth of Souls on you and haven't spent them yet you are just asking for something to happen to you.

At least there you can generally level up if you get stuck like most RPGs. Something like Ninja Gaiden 2 or Bloodborne? Forget it.

You can totally level up in Bloodborne and become pretty overpowered.

 

[kennyamr]

Hard games are not fun per se, however, overcoming hard games is fun.

Having said that, I play most of my games on Easy in order to enjoy the story the most and save time too.

But not all of them though, I play my favorite franchises on Normal because they deserve to played as intended.

I still enjoy the Souls-like games once in a while. Getting to the end, or platinum them feels so good exactly because they are hard.

 

[Lothar]

I get that some people love a challenge, they'll always choose the hardest difficulty in a game, or gravitate towards challenging series like the Souls games. What I don't understand is how that's considered "fun"?

I don't have a lot of time for games these days, so the bit of time I do get, I like to be guaranteed that I'll make some progress if I have an hour here or there to play.

Why? This is a terrible explanation. I don't have a lot of time for games today so I only want challenging games. I want games to be meaningful. They're not movies or books, they're supposed to test you and make you achieve some goal. What satisfaction can you get from games when you're not being challenged?

 

[Big Blue]

It's not. Limiting checkpoints forces the player to learn stages more intimately, and prevents players from just using trial and error to mindlessly force their way through a stage (which is a viable solution for anything with frequent checkpoints).

How does replaying the same path over and over again reduce trial and error? That has nothing to do with the difficulty and intricacy of the game play itself. Going back to the beginning of gaming, the lack of checkpoints has been the layman's method of making a game hard.

I''m not advocating being able to save wherever you want but a balance does exist.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

Unfair games aren't fun, hard games are thrilling and fun.. but they require a certain mindset/energy to play. Not something to pick up for half an hour at the end of a long day.

How does replaying the same path over and over again reduce trial and error?

Isn't that a big part of the definition of trial and error?

 

[Comandr]

Depends on the game, for me.

I just devoured Nioh for about 65 hours. I describe that game as "challenging," in the sense that the game isn't particularly cruel or unfair, (though I am reminded of a couple bullshit sequences where you have a bunch of assholes whomping on you and you can't even react to them) but it does absolutely punish reckless behavior. Most situations have a counter, and strategic thinking will win the day.

I largely feel the same way about Monster Hunter. Monster Hunter is a very challenging game, in the sense that it requires players to take careful, measured actions. Reckless behavior is severely punished, and in a team, everyone suffers. But there's nothing better than taking down a dangerous monster through sheer skill, because you really feel like you earned it. That is very fun.

Now some games like Uncharted, or TES/Fallout games are especially guilty of this... Cranking up the difficulty is only an annoyance. The enemy doesn't get any smarter, they just have loads more health, better accuracy, deal more damage, and the player has less of everything. This isn't challenging, it's just unfun nonsense.

I don't feel like I accomplished anything by playing these games at hard settings. I don't feel like I earned any bragging rights for "beating it on legendary," and I'm not impressed when people do that. Go fight Furious Rajang or Umi-Bozu. I'll be here when you come back and we can cry about it together.

 

[Ludendorkk]

The catharsis of overcoming a challenge can be worth more than the frustration of getting there

 

[Despera]

Challenge is fun for a lot of people. Ain't much more to it.

1 and done.

I just love being challenged. The strive to get better and seeing yourself improve with time is an awesome feeling.

 

[Big Blue]

Unfair games aren't fun, hard games are thrilling and fun.. but they require a certain mindset/energy to play. Not something to pick up for half an hour at the end of a long day.



Isn't that a big part of the definition of trial and error?

If you see my original post, I replied to someone saying that increasing checkpoints would force trial and error. I agree with you.

 

[G-Fex]

They can be fun if you choose to push on in the challenge. Otherwise if you're not enjoying yourself play something else.


The thing that ruins hard games is people constant boasting of it, like so many souls/whatever fans on here and through the internet looking for validation.

 

[Bladelaw]

I like difficult games. Bullet Hell Shmups like Mushihimesama and Ikaruga , brutal platformers like Super Meat Boy, Roguelikes like Enter the Gungeon and Binding of Isaac, Souls games, Ninja Gaiden etc.

The thing that all these games have in common is a high skill threshold. You can scrape by in Dark Souls for a while but eventually you hit a wall and need to either learn a mechanic that was introduced previously (Parrying, two-handing, weapon enhancing, etc) or figure out a different approach to your personal roadblock (Kalameet being my nightmare)

Shmups is all about weapon selection, positioning, movement, and time on target for bosses. You get some "outs" with bombs occasionally but rarely can you just bomb your way through a super boss. You need to learn the patterns, safezones, and attack windows, then execute on them.

Platformers are all about analyzing the level and seeing the "line" through it then dodging the dangers.

Learning all these tricks extend the life of the game and the real progress is made by the player. The end result is you are overall better at a whole genre instead of just that game. When you move to another game in the genre you just need to learn the new mechanics, the basics stick with you. As a result the "normal" difficulties are often too easy so you need to up the challenge to get the same satisfaction.

When you have a large backlog or just interested in playing games for the story or the gameplay you don't need to go through all that of course. If you're on a budget and have more time than money I can see the appeal of diving deep into a challenging experience to squeeze every ounce of entertainment from a game.

 

[Stiler]

I think it's more about games that are challenging but fair about it, vs games that are hard but do it in an unfair way.

Dark Souls for example fits both of these. It's fun and exciting when you do something that challenges you and you finally overcome it.

However it can make you throw your ocntroller when something thats completely unfair happens, like an enemys attack going through a wall (meanwhile your attacks don't).

Unfair things are frustrating whereas things that are difficult but not unfair , to me at least, can be fun.

It's also all about the balancing. You don't want a game that's just balls to the wall hard ALL the time ithroughout the entire game, you want ebb and flow, peaks and valleys to the gameplay.

 

[SmoothRunningGun]

A challenging game with great mechanics (like Nioh or Dark Souls) is a ton of fun. Beating a boss that originally seemed impossible is a great feeling.

 

[Arc Christelle]

Depends on the mechanics. People love challenging games with rewarding mechanics. Ninja Gaiden/2 is one of those joys. Like KiD on Nightmare mode.

there's a difference between challenging and hard

Stop.

 

[Gator86]

Limiting checkpoints is a lazy way to make a game harder. That's about my only complaint of the Souls series. I think the Bayonetta series has perfected difficulty.

Limited checkpoints usually push me towards more conservative gameplay because I don't want to have to redo a section multiple times. That doesn't always jive with better gameplay.

 

[Lakershead22]

I agree that hard games are not fun when you don't have enough time to play games. I get about 4 hours to play a week so playing games on easy guarantees my satisfaction with that game.

 

[Conkerkid11]

Kind of weird to try and create an arbitrary difference between the words "hard" and "challenging" when all it really comes down to is implementing difficulty correctly. There's not some category of games like Uncharted, Battlefield, CoD, etc... that are "hard", while games like Dark Souls are "challenging". Some games get difficulty right. Some don't.

Clearly with Bloodborne being one of GAF's favorites of all-time, and the Souls series generally viewed favorably here, I'd say you're in a minority that doesn't like difficult games.

Maybe make the title, "Games that do difficulty wrong aren't fun" or something along those lines would make more sense. As it is, you're kind of stating your own opinion as if it's a fact or something.

 

[InsaneFandom]

For some people the challenge itself is fun, people are just different in that regard.

Personally I like games to be hard enough that I feel like I'm at risk of dying if I don't pay attention / plan ahead, but easy enough so that I very rarely actually die.
I can still enjoy games that don't strike this balance, but I might take steps to even the playing field - like artificially limiting myself in some way if a game's too easy or looking up guides/strategies if it's too difficult

If there's a difficulty option I always start on normal which is usually fine for me, I really appreciate it when games let you change the difficulty whenever so you can better tailor the experience to what's most fun for you though

 

[Freshmaker]

Challenge is fun for a lot of people. Ain't much more to it.

That's totally fine until it somehow morphs into the only way to properly enjoy a game.

"The satisfaction!"

Not everyone thinks that crap's satisfying.