Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Do you not know the manufacturing process of electronics?
Or do you not know WW2 history?
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How can Europe combat its far-right nationalistic & racist political movements?
- Thread starter Lime
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Do you not know the manufacturing process of electronics?
Or do you not know WW2 history?
THEY WERE MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD! THEY WERE MURDERED AFTER THEIR COUNTRIY WAS RAPED BY USSR AND NAZI GERMANY! And Stalin got help from the west! Ever heard of Lend-Lease? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease But of course, you don't give a flying fuck about this.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
This article indicates that it has raised some eyebrows. He claims that he leaves it up to the reader to decide if the Muslim Party or the Nationalists are the "bad guys".
I'm actually interested in reading this now, it'd hopefully be a good glimpse into the fears and hopes of the Western European populace.
Edit: Wait, is ZuhZuh actually suggesting that Stalin didn't murder millions of people? I have a Romanian former coworker who would love to have words with him.
I know WW2 history and I can easily say, that you are full of shit and an apologist for a Brutal dictator.
Huh, ya I guess. I wonder if in the future, these same far right parties and Muslim groups will join together? There are similarities between them. I would say they are closer in beliefs than the current left of center/socialists parties that the majority of Muslims vote for currently.
I don't see a major problem with these protests. It is certainly true that a major part of Muslim culture is incompatible with life in a Western society and these issues have to be dealt with by the respective immigrant Muslim communities in Europe.
I concede, however, that my views may be warped. I grew up as a non-Muslim in a Muslim-majority country that is touted as one of the secular success stories in the Muslim world (Indonesia). In my lifetime I saw riots erupt in which Christian women were targeted and gang-raped by the thousands. 15 churches were bombed on a single Christmas eve. Three Christian schoolgirls were beheaded by militants armed by the military and police. Most churches had more than a thousand members as they were not allowed to build new houses of worship in defiance of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Non-Muslim natives were exterminated by the tens of thousands in various provinces to ensure Muslim residents maintained a majority. So on and so forth. So I probably do not have an objective view of Muslim culture.
I concede, however, that my views may be warped. I grew up as a non-Muslim in a Muslim-majority country that is touted as one of the secular success stories in the Muslim world (Indonesia). In my lifetime I saw riots erupt in which Christian women were targeted and gang-raped by the thousands. 15 churches were bombed on a single Christmas eve. Three Christian schoolgirls were beheaded by militants armed by the military and police. Most churches had more than a thousand members as they were not allowed to build new houses of worship in defiance of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Non-Muslim natives were exterminated by the tens of thousands in various provinces to ensure Muslim residents maintained a majority. So on and so forth. So I probably do not have an objective view of Muslim culture.
Nah, from his posting he is also pro-Stalinism and pro-Maoism. So, yeah.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Today MacNille learns that awful shit happens in War.
Also, just for historical posterity, the USSR/Poland beef goes back to Poland's invasion of the USSR in 1920 and the subsequent Jewish pogroms that took place in White Allied Ukraine during that time frame.
Oh, well then you know about Stalin's constant overtures to the UK and France during the Spanish Civil War and leading up to WW2 for an alliance against Germany and how he was repeatedly told to get fucked?
As someone originating from eastern germany i'm kinda feeling insulted by your posts.
They are voted back in germany because the old people living in the countryside still believe in the stupid SED ideology. They never went to prison because their neighbor told stasi you heard rock music. They weren't the ones not allowed to study because you weren't in the party. They weren't the ones getting shot because they wanted to go to the West, living with their familys. I can go on and on please stop praising regimes that terrorized their citizens.
I know that what I don't know is how is that in any way related to the topic at hand.
Should we also look at how ancient China handled its slave trade or is that off limit?
Yeah Poland was perfectly chummy with Russia before that!
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
So you believe in democracy but anyone who votes different from you is just stupid?
You probably should have just stuck with the "conspiracy" angle.
Can't listen to rock music?
That's a punk riding public transit right next to a police officer.
Poland is directly in between Russia and Germany, so yeah, any effort at self defense would require military transit rights.
dapperbandit
Banned
Yeah my advice would just be to disengage, this is going way off topic.
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
Divide and rule, it still works.
As if the Communism meta discussion wasn't already confusing enough you had to bring this new fuckery in. Ok, I'll bite. Who the hell said such a stupid thing?
I think that the root of the ascent of these extreme right wing parties is because at some point of their history, the left wing stopped being socialist / communist and started to be "progressive". In short, they abbandoned the whole idea about thinking and defending the interests of a universal (or at least, nation-wide) working class, and embraced instead the much touted "multiculturalism" paradygm. It was a purely ellectoral, opportunistic movement, no matter how they are trying to legitimize it now. The left wing tried to expand its base by cattering to a different plethora of "ellectoral niches" (gays, ecologists, inmigrants from different stripes, etc) outside of its bread and butter voters (blue collar workers) by empatizing the values of "difference" while assuming that their old ellectorate (native working class) would keep voting them because hell, what else they would vote? The right wing and their anti-welfare programs?
The idea was that somehow, these diverse niches could be glued by an overaching cultural interest, aka "multiculturalism", as if culture, much less some vague, weak cosmopolitan culture could trump class. That idea is, simply put, stupid and asisine as fuck. Because these much touted diverse niches had different, if not outright opposed values and interests, no matter how much convenient would be for the traditional left wing parties for them to stay inside one happy big tent. This ain't happening. At all. Chielfly, because some of these people hate each other's guts with passion. And also, because their economic interests are not merely "different" nor "diverse", but downright extreme oposites in some cases by the virtue of class difference. Devoutly muslim inmigrants embracing gay rights? Poor factory workers accepting paying more for their ellectric bills so the ecologically minded hipsters can sleep better at night? Are you freaking serious?
The left wing had to make a decision as to who will be the loser in this new set of priorities, and the big looser was, of course, the native working class. It was bound to happen, because it let them catter to one of these new niches (inmigrants, which compete for these low-wage jobs against the native worker class) while making it easier to reconcile the party's interests with the elites (increase labour supply in order to decrease labor price) and because hell, the working class will keep voting us, right? Where else are they going to?
Well, they are going to Le Pen, to the Tea Party, to the "True Finns" and frankly, they will be going with anyone that doesn't treat them like an old, obsolete broken toy. Political extremism is not born out of poverty per se, nor ignorance, even if demagoges thrieve in these two elements. The extreme right wing is getting hold in countries with a rich and educated popullace because people trows into the hands of extremists whenever they feel that they have been "politically orphaned". Desperation can breed violence and emigration waves, but these political currents are something else entirely, me thinks.
So in conclusion: There's an ellectoral vaccuum that ought to be filled, pronto. The narrative of class interests superceeding cultural differences ought to be recovered too. Or else, the narrative of cultural differences attacking your class interests will take place instead (as it is happening right now) and the results won't be pretty.
The idea was that somehow, these diverse niches could be glued by an overaching cultural interest, aka "multiculturalism", as if culture, much less some vague, weak cosmopolitan culture could trump class. That idea is, simply put, stupid and asisine as fuck. Because these much touted diverse niches had different, if not outright opposed values and interests, no matter how much convenient would be for the traditional left wing parties for them to stay inside one happy big tent. This ain't happening. At all. Chielfly, because some of these people hate each other's guts with passion. And also, because their economic interests are not merely "different" nor "diverse", but downright extreme oposites in some cases by the virtue of class difference. Devoutly muslim inmigrants embracing gay rights? Poor factory workers accepting paying more for their ellectric bills so the ecologically minded hipsters can sleep better at night? Are you freaking serious?
The left wing had to make a decision as to who will be the loser in this new set of priorities, and the big looser was, of course, the native working class. It was bound to happen, because it let them catter to one of these new niches (inmigrants, which compete for these low-wage jobs against the native worker class) while making it easier to reconcile the party's interests with the elites (increase labour supply in order to decrease labor price) and because hell, the working class will keep voting us, right? Where else are they going to?
Well, they are going to Le Pen, to the Tea Party, to the "True Finns" and frankly, they will be going with anyone that doesn't treat them like an old, obsolete broken toy. Political extremism is not born out of poverty per se, nor ignorance, even if demagoges thrieve in these two elements. The extreme right wing is getting hold in countries with a rich and educated popullace because people trows into the hands of extremists whenever they feel that they have been "politically orphaned". Desperation can breed violence and emigration waves, but these political currents are something else entirely, me thinks.
So in conclusion: There's an ellectoral vaccuum that ought to be filled, pronto. The narrative of class interests superceeding cultural differences ought to be recovered too. Or else, the narrative of cultural differences attacking your class interests will take place instead (as it is happening right now) and the results won't be pretty.
Resident_UA
Member
Can't listen to rock music?
That's a punk riding public transit right next to a police officer.
I should know better than getting in arguments with you but... I guess I have only one question: Have you or your parents lived in Communist Russia? If so, what part of Russia was it?
My parents told me of many SPECIFIC stories of communist persecution. For example the teachers of early school grades used to stand next to the church entrance during Easter to make sure that THEIR students do not attend church. I (and all of my friends) had to be Christened at home because it was too dangerous to do it in church. And just to be clear Communists did not close the churches, they just made it very difficult to attend them. This applies to everything: Music, Traditions, Movies etc. That's how the whole thing worked.
Does living in Poland (and having your parents and family living in Poland) during the communism count then? Because what you are describing in this thread is some really rose tinted shit that's very different to how things looked like during that period of time here.
It's too late at this point. The EU economy isn't going to grow, and most European nations have terrible demographics which means they will turn into old folks homes as their infrastructure further collapses within the next 15+ years (with notable exceptions like France and the UK who have resilient economies that don't depend on the EU). European nations and their militaries will only get more nationalistic especially if land grabs like Russia's are the only way to stop the bleeding for their states.
In other words, Europe is going to be filled with a lot of angry yet proud poor people with no jobs and little help from the government, which spells trouble for minorities and the region.
What did you expect? The way USA media portrays Europe coupled with little to no cultural knowledge bleeding into the US aside from those news is not exactly a good for understanding foreign point of views. There's also the issue of having this view that our internal politics are somehow homogenized, as evidenced by this title.
see, but what they actually wanted to do was to divide Eastern Europe and distribute the territories between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. Russia wasn't really ever planning to protect the sovereignty of Poland, they wanted a piece of the cake
Excuse me? Where did you see that France's economy is resilient or doesn't depend on the EU?
It's biggest trade partner is Germany!
Sho_Nuff82
Member
No, more that people are actively joining the only parties that are addressing the issue of failed integration and cultural relativism.
I really doubt that Europe is significantly more racist than say, the US or Canada. But our (U.S.) major immigration opposition arises from xenophobia and a big chunk of the population believing that social welfare is for communists, not from fear of a religious takeover. I think it's easier to stir the extremist pot when you can point out the "other" having a shared culture that stands in contrast to the secular society that Europe grew accustomed to in the 20th century.
Either you are dumb as bricks or you are an communism apologist. I will go with the later. should know that in 1940, USSR was not at war with anyone. That was the time when Katyn happend.
And do you know why west didn't want to ally with USSR? Because they want all of eastern europa to be under their control. They wanted to have free reign in the baltic countires, Poland and other. It was only with the molotov-Ribbentrop pack with the nazi that he was able to this. But you don't care about this, do you? Because if you could, you would suck of Stalin, Mao and all the criminals that are followers of communism.
Omnipunctual Godot
Gold Member
How about the minimum 14.5 million peasants killed during the dekulakization/collectivisation of the 1930s? Stalin's "revolution from above" and collectivist policies directly resulted in the terror famines inflicted on Ukrainians and people of the Kuban areas (Don and Volga), where the state forced the peasantry to produce grain in kolkhozes and sovkhozes knowing that the quotas were impossibly high. When the state would come to the community farms to collect the impossibly high grain quotas, they took everything the peasants had, purposely leaving them to starve to death and eat each other as a means of eliminating the potential counter-revolutionary threats posed by the peasants and to destroy the national identity of the Ukrainian people. Stalin's class warfare, waged through collectivist policies, was directly responsible for the an amount of deaths that is actually triple those sustained during the Holocaust. Does that qualify as a "real tragedy" to you?
dapperbandit
Banned
That's quite simplistic.
If I'm reading the posts you're talking about, it seems the argument being made is that many European governments have refused to engage with a public that's becoming more disgruntled with immigration... then because the issues surrounding immigration aren't adequately addressed by mainstream moderate parties, people turn to populist right wing parties like UKIP, FN etc.
I can see the logic in it to be honest, although when people in mainstream parties promise to tackle immigration it often gets ignored, much like the "where are the moderate muslims and why haven't denounced terrorist atrocity x" outcries when it's quite common for the Islamic community to do that, it just doesn't hit the headlines.
So you believe in democracy but anyone who votes different from you is just stupid?
You probably should have just stuck with the "conspiracy" angle.
Can't listen to rock music?
That's a punk riding public transit right next to a police officer.
See this wikipedia articles?
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_in_der_DDR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_punk#East_Germany
it's all about the persecution of punks in east germany.
And yes people believing and praising any ideology that allows a goverment to kill it's own citizens is stupid.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
It's nice to see we have so many visitors from a parallel universe here on GAF. Most European nations do having ageing demographics, yes, but this isn't a permanent feature. If you look at a population pyramid of the European population, as here:
you can see the problem is effectively the baby-boomer problem - there was an explosion of births in the 1960s, which eventually returned to a steady rate. The steady rate part (how the size of 0-4, 5-9, 10-14, and so on are roughly the same) means that the ageing problem is temporary. The peak difficult for the system will be in approximately 15 years, when the height of the baby boomers hit retirement age, but in about 30 years, that boom will have exited the system and the age pyramid will stabilize and begin to skew lower again. It's just a function of how demographics work.
In no way is this ever going to lead to land-grabs; that's just stupid thinking. Which major European nation west of Turkey and Russia has anything to gain from any kind of land grab? How on earth would making a land grab "prop up" an economy? The economic repercussions from the kind of military action needed to secure territory alone would be ruinous, never mind the vast economic sanctions that would result. That's assuming people would even consider it; the idea that UKIP, the Swedish Democrats or even the National Front would openly advocate the annexation of foreign territory is laughable. Xenophobia does not necessitate militarism and not even fairly racist old people genuinely think that United Kingdom should invade France.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Hardly a concept exclusive to Eastern Europe, Germany, or Socialism.
Somewhat relevant.
"How can Europe combat racism?"
My solution is a political ideology that makes racism illegal.
Some people got really upset about that and started whining about Stalinism or something.
I never said otherwise.
It doesn't matter! You are praising an ideology which have led to at least 100+ million dead worldwide.
I've always question the US narrative on East Germany.
Ikael and Abounder, you both have made excellent points (Aside from France and UKs resiliency, I think they're all screwed).
The left has abandoned their most loyal/consistent voters, for every type of niche group, minority imaginable. We are currently seeing the collapse of that strategy. Especially when underneath that big tent are groups that would literally being killing each other in a different political climate or country.
The left has abandoned their most loyal/consistent voters, for every type of niche group, minority imaginable. We are currently seeing the collapse of that strategy. Especially when underneath that big tent are groups that would literally being killing each other in a different political climate or country.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Fair enough.
In that case it is a regrettable circumstance that needs to be corrected in general.
dude, don't take anything that zuhzuhzombie say serious.He is prasing Communism ffs. It is odd that he doesn't mention the total lack of freedom, the secret police watching everyone, the economic stagnation, the lack of political freedom, etc.
France and UK uses the EU to their advantage similar to the USA/Bretton Woods System; and France has the demographics to support their economy in the next 15 years.
Parallel universe, and yet you agree with my post that in 15 years Europe faces serious demographic challenges. Most EU nations don't have the people to replace the boomers without immigration, and the EU economy won't be growing in the meantime. That is a recipe for disaster especially in the context for minorities, or at least it means Europe is in for very strange times.
In the near future the Western nations may be faced with the issue of invading Russia if they keep grabbing land. But when it comes to militaries a lot of this also depends on the USA and its commitment to defending against Russia if the shit keeps hitting the fan, without USA logistical support Europe will become more nationalistic and ill prepared.
Miles Quaritch
Member
I feel one country or large city should try an experiment whereby they don't allow a single immigrant worker in for five years and instead encourage the local populace to take up all the jobs that are currently being hoarded by these immigrants.
Would be interesting to see the results.
Would be interesting to see the results.
dapperbandit
Banned
Although it is high time we did.
But really, I agree. I think people make that mistake because right wing parties often make strong overtures to military tradition and the heritage of Empire... past glories and all that. But that's just appealing to old fashioned virtues that still strike a chord with aging voters or the young alternative right who inherit them.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
I'd question the Western narrative about anything.
I hate to use North Korea as an excuse for anything but they provide a solid example. Plenty of independent experts have said that there is no way they hacked Sony. Sony isn't even an American corporation.
Yet what is the US government's line on it?
And you're solution is to adopt Capitalism and Bourgeois Democracy, an ideology that has also led to 100+ million dead worldwide.
Again, none of these are features exclusive to Socialism. NSA, constant boom/bust stagnation of Capitalism, current declining QoL in the West even though available money is increasingly massively. Political freedom's in the US are boiled down to a center right party or a far right party. That's not an example of political pluralism.
The US has cops chocking people to death in the middle of the streets.
coolfighter1993
Banned
Why is it ok to have chinatowns in the west but if the Africans or Arabs try to do the same people complain about them not integrating?
I can't speak for the poster that you're responding to but the argument that Stalinism diverged quite significantly from mainstream communism is fairly strong and dismissing it as a "no true Scotsman" argument is unfair; merely stating that something is that kind of an argument doesn't make it true.
"Obama is a socialist!"
"No he isn't!"
"No true Scotsman tho"
I think this is a bit disingenuous. Certainly it is important to preserve the separation between church and state but xenophobic attitudes built on quasi-religious solidarity are basically the opposite of this.
It is thanks to Democracy that you are able to puke out all of this bullshit and I call bullshit on your "100+ million dead". Give me a source.
dapperbandit
Banned
You are not going to convince him man, just stop feeding him.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Man, I'd really love for you to expand on that last sentence. Really, please expand on it.
It's nice to see we have so many visitors from a parallel universe here on GAF. Most European nations do having ageing demographics, yes, but this isn't a permanent feature. If you look at a population pyramid of the European population, as here:
you can see the problem is effectively the baby-boomer problem - there was an explosion of births in the 1960s, which eventually returned to a steady rate. The steady rate part (how the size of 0-4, 5-9, 10-14, and so on are roughly the same) means that the ageing problem is temporary. The peak difficult for the system will be in approximately 15 years, when the height of the baby boomers hit retirement age, but in about 30 years, that boom will have exited the system and the age pyramid will stabilize and begin to skew lower again. It's just a function of how demographics work.
In no way is this ever going to lead to land-grabs; that's just stupid thinking. Which major European nation west of Turkey and Russia has anything to gain from any kind of land grab? How on earth would making a land grab "prop up" an economy? The economic repercussions from the kind of military action needed to secure territory alone would be ruinous, never mind the vast economic sanctions that would result. That's assuming people would even consider it; the idea that UKIP, the Swedish Democrats or even the National Front would openly advocate the annexation of foreign territory is laughable. Xenophobia does not necessitate militarism and not even fairly racist old people genuinely think that United Kingdom should invade France.
I think your underestimating the costs the Baby Boomers are going to incurred on these countries. The amount of debt that will be built up over the next two decades by the time the boomers die will be unpayable by a future dwindling European population. Also who will make up the youth? Immigrants? You think they want to pay the price for the ethic Europeans living it up back in their glory days? Speculation of global happenings in extremely difficult at the best of times, but there can be no doubt that big changes will occur in Europe in near/long future, whether they'll be grim as some think is yet to be know. I for one am extremely pessimistic tho.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
I think it's too late for that. Damage is already done.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
..fog in the Channel, Europe cut off.
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