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[ItWasMeantToBe19]

You would have a hard time convincing a Marxist that command economies are predisposed towards overproduction when Burgeoise overproduction is a pretty fundamental tenant of Marxism.

Produce boots far more boots than people want one quarter while not producing nearly enough beds at the same time. Then reverse that next quarter. This is a fundamental aspect of Communism nations.

This is exactly what happened, how is that debatable. Almost every economics paper... ever on this subject has agreed on this.

 

[Joni]

I would say actually listen to their points, involve them seriously in debates and stop comparing them to nazi's. People have a weird reaction of closing themselves off more if you call them nazi's. If you pretend like they'e completely wrong and chastise them, you'll only get more division. For instance, the problem with boatloads of illegal immigrants is a problem that needs to be handled. Other example: the huge amount of Europeans that are going to fight in Syria, we're responsible for 1/3 of all foreign ISIS fighters. Involve them there. Don't ignore the problem and call the people that want to stop that racists.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

It's actually about ethics in national policies, not racism. Again, go fuck yourselves people.

Whats with you gamergate kids trying to shoe horn that shit everywhere?

 

[Resident_UA]

For instance, the problem with boatloads of illegal immigrants is a problem that needs to be handled.

Going back to topic... The problem with "boatloads of illegal immigrants" would be much bigger if they didn't exist. There isn't enough cheap labor inside Europe to cover the demand. The issue is that some parties speculate on immigrants while they need to be concentrating on preserving their culture and integrating immigrants in their European culture. The reason why that isn't happening is racism... It's a closed circle...

 

[Darkangel]

I wonder how much this problem could have been minimized if it weren't for the massive drop in births in European countries. Europeans are not having children, or not many of them at the very least. If they would have babies they wouldn't need to import people from other countries and then develop antagonism for said people.

When you don't reproduce enough the result is stagnation (Japan) or immigration (Europe). Lose the condoms Europe.

I think the long term sustainable solution would be for European governments to work towards a 2.1 birthrate. Increasing immigration is really only a bandaid seeing as immigrant birthrates supposedly fall to European levels anyway.

Europe isn't a "nation of immigrants" like colonial America was. These European countries all have rich native cultures and distinct histories. The main fear people have over immigration (or multiculturalism in general) is that it will begin to erode the identity of the host nation. The effects aren't quite apparent yet, but there will inevitably be an impact once the demographics substantially shift. The main reason Canada has been successful is because it is a nation with little to no identity or defining traits. It works well as a hub for people around the world to live and work, but even then it has its share of problems. I can understand why people anywhere would want to protect their country's historical way of life.

From a philosophical perspective is there anything wrong with restricting immigration if it's genuinely the will of the people? Not every country has to become like New York or Toronto. Monoculturalism tends to promote national unity and has a positive impact on social capital (Japan, Norway, Finland, etc..). You could limit immigration without negatively impacting the existing immigrant groups.

Why should a person completely assimilate when moving to another country? Why shouldn't they retain their cultural identity and heritage? It worked fine for a lot of immigrants in the US, so why shouldn't European countries allow for their immigrants to retain their culture?

Why SHOULDN'T they? They're the one who chose to leave their home country in favour of joining a new one. If they didn't want to become part of their new country then they should never have left their old one. As for America, their idea of "multiculturalism" has always been a melting pot at best. Historical immigrant groups such as the Germans and French in the 19th century were quick to abandon their original heritage and integrate into American society.

 

[Fugu]

Produce boots far more boots than people want one quarter while not producing nearly enough beds at the same time. Then reverse that next quarter. This is a fundamental aspect of Communism nations.

This is exactly what happened, how is that debatable. Almost every economics paper... ever on this subject has agreed on this.

Marxists argue, as they have for nearly 200 years, that Marxist communism is the endgame of a trendline that has a necessary stopover in the developed capitalist stage, which the USSR attempted to skip. They will also point to the dependency of major communist states of the 20th century on totalitarianism and the success of some communist governments that the ideology is not as toxic as mainstream economics suggests.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Marxists argue, as they have for nearly 200 years, that Marxist communism is the endgame of a trendline that has a necessary stopover in the developed capitalist stage, which the USSR attempted to skip. They will also point to the dependency of major communist states of the 20th century on totalitarianism and the success of some communist governments that the ideology is not as toxic as mainstream economics suggests.

You're not worth talking to.

Saying that price signals is only believed by "mainstream economists" is akin to saying that climate change is only believed by "mainstream climate scientists." In that yes, 99% of the people agree so that is quite mainstream.

 

[Joni]

Going back to topic... The problem with "boatloads of illegal immigrants" would be much bigger if they didn't exist. There isn't enough cheap labor inside Europe to cover the demand. The issue is that some parties speculate on immigrants while they need to be concentrating on preserving their culture and integrating immigrants in their European culture. The reason why that isn't happening is racism... It's a closed circle...

Why wouldn't there be enough cheap labour in the European Union? Economical immigration for cheap labour is also different from using illegal immigrants and asylum seekers for cheap labour. They can't get legal jobs when they first arrive. The boats also put a huge stress on the local health care systems, which is normal when a boat with 800 dehydrated refugees has to be picked up at sea. It is a problem that goes further than available labour.

 

[Omnipunctual Godot]

FWIW, Marxism Leninism is my solution to the problem of race as those states are the only ones to make it illegal.

I can see how criminalizing racism would make the summary executions of bourgeois hostages during the Red Terror seem like a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things. After all, those peasants, teachers, and Russian Orthodox Church members who were murdered, raped, and tortured during the Red Terror must have had it coming, right?

But what kind of torture are we talking about, exactly? Well, here's a small excerpt from the Wikipedia page:

"At these times, there were numerous reports that Cheka interrogators utilized torture methods which were, according to Orlando Figes, 'matched only by the Spanish Inquisition.' At Odessa the Cheka tied White officers to planks and slowly fed them into furnaces or tanks of boiling water; In Kharkiv, scalpings and hand-flayings were commonplace: the skin was peeled off victims' hands to produce 'gloves'; The Voronezh Cheka rolled naked people around in barrels studded internally with nails; victims were crucified or stoned to death at Dnipropetrovsk; the Cheka at Kremenchuk impaled members of the clergy and buried alive rebelling peasants; in Orel, water was poured on naked prisoners bound in the winter streets until they became living ice statues; in Kiev, Chinese Cheka detachments placed rats in iron tubes sealed at one end with wire netting and the other placed against the body of a prisoner, with the tubes being heated until the rats gnawed through the victim's body in an effort to escape."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror#History

Women were also raped in order to barter for the lives of their loved ones.

Additionally, as Lenin put it regarding the Bolsheviks' potential opposition: "Comrades! The kulak uprising in your five districts must be crushed without pity ... You must make example of these people. (1) Hang (I mean hang publicly, so that people see it) at least 100 kulaks, rich bastards, and known bloodsuckers. (2) Publish their names. (3) Seize all their grain. (4) Single out the hostages per my instructions in yesterday's telegram. Do all this so that for miles around people see it all, understand it, tremble, and tell themselves that we are killing the bloodthirsty kulaks and that we will continue to do so ... Yours, Lenin. P.S. Find tougher people."

Also, let's not forget the 50,000 White Army P.O.W.s who were summarily executed or hanged for believing the Bolshevik promise that they would receive amnesty for their surrender. This was done with Vladmir Lenin's approval, of course.

But no, the criminalization of racism truly makes it all worthwhile. Although, that does make the Bolshevik campaign to systematically exterminate the Cossacks, which occurred under Lenin's regime, somewhat problematic, yes?

 

[Fugu]

You're not worth talking to.

That's nice.

You should read the Communist Manifesto. The legitimacy of your arguments is hampered by your ignorance.

EDIT: As for your edit, heterodox economics certainly encompasses more than one percent of all economists.

 

[Resident_UA]

Why SHOULDN'T they?

Is is really that difficult to understand? Let me simplify this to you in this (admittedly ) insane scenario. Lets say you live in Germany right now and get paid $20,000. Lets imagine that German economy tanks and you loose your job. There's a perfect job for you in France where you would get paid $60,000 and you don't even need to know French. Wouldn't you move? If you would move and discovered that there are other Germans there would you be friends with them? Would you start celebrating French independence day?

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

That's nice.

You should read the Communist Manifesto. The legitimacy of your arguments is hampered by your ignorance.

I have read Marx's work, it's fucking terrible and based on economic theory that was completely discredited. Please tell me how the amount of hours worked by labor determines the value of a good.

 

[Resident_UA]

Why wouldn't there be enough cheap labour in the European Union? Economical immigration for cheap labour is also different from using illegal immigrants and asylum seekers for cheap labour. They can't get legal jobs when they first arrive. The boats also put a huge stress on the local health care systems, which is normal when a boat with 800 dehydrated refugees has to be picked up at sea. It is a problem that goes further than available labour.

Because of birthrate... That's the reason why EU is expanding, because they would prefer to Eastern Immigrants rather than Southern I guess

 

[Joni]

Because of birthrate... That's the reason why EU is expanding, because they would prefer to Eastern Immigrants rather than Southern I guess

It is kinda sad people think we need to keep up our population because that will hurt longtime viability of nature. Between the current unemployement and possibilities of further automatisation, we don't need an influx of illegal immigrants to supply cheap labour. We only need better division of unemployed people. There are sectors where we need immigrants because there just aren't enough people in those fields despite having enough people in general to cover these fields. That also falls outside of cheap labour, because for instance nurses and construction workers get the same wage regardless of the fact if they're foreign or not. But in any case, it remains bad to exclude parties from that because that just strengthens their position. No modern far right party has come out of a governement stronger or more radical.

 

[Fugu]

I have read Marx's work, it's fucking terrible and based on economic theory that was completely discredited. Please tell me how the amount of hours worked by labor determines the value of a good.

The idea that the value of a good can be determined as a function of the amount of man-hours involved in creating it isn't especially radical. I would like to see the study that disproves that. Seriously, give me a link and I'll read it.

 

[Resident_UA]

It is kinda sad people think we need to keep up our population because that will hurt longtime viability of nature. Between the current unemployement and possibilities of further automatisation, we don't need an influx of illegal immigrants to supply cheap labour. We only need better division of unemployed people. There are sectors where we need immigrants because there just aren't enough people in those fields despite having enough people in general to cover these fields. That also falls outside of cheap labour, because for instance nurses and construction workers get the same wage regardless of the fact if they're foreign or not.

There are other options, but if you just cut off illegal immigration right now you will be screwing the economy, so politicians need to be looking at some other ways. I guess if there was a party that was for decreased immigration AND "better division of unemployed people" they would make more sense, but you rarely see that

 

[Mael]

France and UK uses the EU to their advantage similar to the USA/Bretton Woods System; and France has the demographics to support their economy in the next 15 years.

France is certainly guilty of using the EU to subsidize a good part of its economy (that's the whole plan of the PAC after all).
But you're vastly overestimating demographics compared to the total ineptitude of its elected officials and the shackles put on the economy by the inscrutable regulations.
On top of that officials are looking into ways to make the demographic situation worse in tampering laws relating to families and all (and I'm not talking about the gay marriage laws or stuffs like that).

The rest of Europe could export their inevitable future crisis to France and UK but their future will be fine. France uses the EU similar to the USA/Bretton Woods System.

I haven't heard of the Bretton Woods system in quite a while so can you elaborate for everyone because my memory isn't that good and that would improve the quality of the debate.

 

[Madness]

I'm more pessimistic. We are literally seeing a massive changing of the guard right in front of us. By the later half of this century, we'll see, for the first time in centuries to even a millenia, the West/Europe will no longer be the dominant economic, military power on the planet.

That will create fear and uneasiness. It's all good right now because of the centuries of colonization, industrialization have created first world nations. But if you actually notice, you'll see Europe is losing at the very things they started. Manufacturing, resource export, even education. There are more research graduates every year from India and China than the entire populations of European countries. It's hard to think about now. But imagine in 50 years, when you have India and China have economies as large as the EU combined? Larger than the US. When sanction power is removed from the west?

So what happens? You'll see fewer and fewer skilled jobs, decline in manufacturing and industrial jobs, you'll see European firms and corporations bought by Asian/Indian ones, you'll see migration rise until it becomes lucrative to migrate to Asian places. Think about how many people in Europe and the US are looking for jobs in China, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, India.

But on the topic at hand. How do you combat it? You need to actively engage what these people are saying. No I'm not saying you support what they're about. But it will have to be compromise. History has shown us, moderates and progressives eventually lose against fundamentalists/hardliners/extremists.

 

[devilhawk]

I'd question the Western narrative about anything.

I hate to use North Korea as an excuse for anything but they provide a solid example. Plenty of independent experts have said that there is no way they hacked Sony. Sony isn't even an American corporation.

It makes it even more likely! This is the country that kidnapped dozens of Japanese. Hell, they even kidnapped a South Korean film director so that he would be forced to direct movies.

By trying to decrease institutional racism:

- Talk about institutional racism, racism is so much more than some drunk shouting slurs.
- Let all education have an anti-racist dimension and talk about racism in schools.
- Public education free from kindergarten to university and more help with homework in areas where the parents don't have higher education.
- Decrease segregation by building apartments with low rent cost in middle class white areas.
- The right to full time employment for part time workers in the public sector.

I think a lot of this would long term decrease the support for racist parties. In Sweden the Left Party and Feminist Initiative have these suggestions.

America tried that. The white people just moved away.

Whats with you gamergate kids trying to shoe horn that shit everywhere?

It's actually an anti-gamergate thing. Though they are right about gamergate, they sure like to tell people how right they are even when it isn't in any way related.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

It makes it even more likely! This is the country that kidnapped dozens of Japanese. Hell, they even kidnapped a South Korean film director so that he would be forced to direct movies.


America tried that. The white people just moved away.


It's actually an anti-gamergate thing. Though they are right about gamergate, they sure like to tell people how right they are even when it isn't in any way related.

The Golden Dawn and the rest constantly say "it's not about racism, it's about preserving this great nation" even when they're denying the Holocaust, making anti-immigrant ads, or throwing up Nazi salutes. The defenses of their bigotry are actually pretty similar to the #GG defenses which is why I used that saying to compare groups like The Golden Dawn to another hate group that would be easily identifiable on a gaming forum.

 

[Darkangel]

Is is really that difficult to understand? Let me simplify this to you in this (admittedly ) insane scenario. Lets say you live in Germany right now and get paid $20,000. Lets imagine that German economy tanks and you loose your job. There's a perfect job for you in France where you would get paid $60,000 and you don't even need to know French. Wouldn't you move? If you would move and discovered that there are other Germans there would you be friends with them? Would you start celebrating French independence day?

Honestly, yes I would.

If I ever leave Canada then I'm definitely going to try my hardest to assimilate to my new country (assuming it's a permanent move and not some 6 month work permit in Dubai).

 

[Baki]

This is not the case at all, in the UK where we demonise immigrants as much as anywhere else in the EU they end up paying more money in that they take out in benefits overall.

I live in Scotland and while the rest of the UK is intent on shutting down our borders we actaully need immigrants here because that much of our young population are moving away now.

Just goes to show what one of problems is. Media pushing a narrative that immigrants are a net negative for society.

 

[LordJim]

The Golden Dawn and the rest constantly say "it's not about racism, it's about preserving this great nation" even when they're denying the Holocaust, making anti-immigrant ads, or throwing up Nazi salutes. The defenses of their bigotry are actually pretty similar to the #GG defenses which is why I used that saying to compare groups like The Golden Dawn to another hate group that would be easily identifiable on a gaming forum.

Comparing a far right party that trains child soldiers and kills people that disagree with them in politics, not just post mean words on the web, with a group involved in social media pissing contest is ridiculous.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

I can see how criminalizing racism would make the summary executions of bourgeois hostages during the Red Terror seem like a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things. After all, those peasants, teachers, and Russian Orthodox Church members who were murdered, raped, and tortured during the Red Terror must have had it coming, right?

But what kind of torture are we talking about, exactly? Well, here's a small excerpt from the Wikipedia page:

"At these times, there were numerous reports that Cheka interrogators utilized torture methods which were, according to Orlando Figes, 'matched only by the Spanish Inquisition.' At Odessa the Cheka tied White officers to planks and slowly fed them into furnaces or tanks of boiling water; In Kharkiv, scalpings and hand-flayings were commonplace: the skin was peeled off victims' hands to produce 'gloves'; The Voronezh Cheka rolled naked people around in barrels studded internally with nails; victims were crucified or stoned to death at Dnipropetrovsk; the Cheka at Kremenchuk impaled members of the clergy and buried alive rebelling peasants; in Orel, water was poured on naked prisoners bound in the winter streets until they became living ice statues; in Kiev, Chinese Cheka detachments placed rats in iron tubes sealed at one end with wire netting and the other placed against the body of a prisoner, with the tubes being heated until the rats gnawed through the victim's body in an effort to escape."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror#History

Women were also raped in order to barter for the lives of their loved ones.

Additionally, as Lenin put it regarding the Bolsheviks' potential opposition: "Comrades! The kulak uprising in your five districts must be crushed without pity ... You must make example of these people. (1) Hang (I mean hang publicly, so that people see it) at least 100 kulaks, rich bastards, and known bloodsuckers. (2) Publish their names. (3) Seize all their grain. (4) Single out the hostages per my instructions in yesterday's telegram. Do all this so that for miles around people see it all, understand it, tremble, and tell themselves that we are killing the bloodthirsty kulaks and that we will continue to do so ... Yours, Lenin. P.S. Find tougher people."

Also, let's not forget the 50,000 White Army P.O.W.s who were summarily executed or hanged for believing the Bolshevik promise that they would receive amnesty for their surrender. This was done with Vladmir Lenin's approval, of course.

But no, the criminalization of racism truly makes it all worthwhile. Although, that does make the Bolshevik campaign to systematically exterminate the Cossacks, which occurred under Lenin's regime, somewhat problematic, yes?

Today Omnipunctual Godot has learned that war is shitty.

"Persecute known feudalists/classists and known bloodsuckers"?

Not too terribly worried about it.



But yeah, going to war over racial oppression is a good idea if that's what it takes. Happened in America too. Or do you weep for the Confederacy?

Also, no love lost for historical Cossacks as they tended to slaughter Jews on a constant basis.


ed

Also, since you're gullible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocity_propaganda

 

[Stereogatari]

Golden Dawn are truly stupid since they promote Nazi-like ideology, yet many Greeks would be considered non-white according to that ideology and by many other whiter Europeans, whether racist or not.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Comparing a far right party that trains child soldiers and kills people that disagree with them in politics, not just post mean words on the web, with a group involved in social media pissing contest is ridiculous.

Uhh, #GG keeps sending SWAT teams to the households of trans women with the expressed goal that the police will either kill these women or the women will commit suicide due to stress and harassment. And they're now sending dead animals and pictures of murdered trans women to trans women's emails and houses to encourage them to commit suicide.

But it's just a comparison of how transparent the messaging is.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Golden Dawn are truly stupid since they promote Nazi-like ideology, yet many Greeks would be considered non-white according to that ideology and by many other whiter Europeans, whether racist or not.

Fascism is inherently irrational.

I mean, they allied with Italy, a country with people who have intermingled with various African nations for decades, as well as Japan and a few outfits in the India.

Uhh, #GG keeps sending SWAT teams to the households of trans women with the expressed goal that the police will either kill these women or the women will commit suicide due to stress and harassment. And they're now sending dead animals and pictures of murdered trans women to trans women's emails and houses to encourage them to commit suicide.

But it's just a comparison of how transparent the messaging is.

Really???

Source? Not source trolling you here, I just want to see this for myself. That's ridiculous.

 

[Joni]

There are other options, but if you just cut off illegal immigration right now you will be screwing the economy, so politicians need to be looking at some other ways. I guess if there was a party that was for decreased immigration AND "better division of unemployed people" they would make more sense, but you rarely see that

The parties locally in my country that favor a more strengthened policy on illegal immigrants are also implementing aptitude tests before starting university and want to push unemployed people more to other professions. There are a lot of right wing parties with such policies.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Really???

Source? Not source trolling you here, I just want to see this for myself. That's ridiculous.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/...gate_woman_says_online_ha.html#incart_m-rpt-1

https://twitter.com/srhbutts/status/552519756927238144

http://i.imgur.com/k91LSJI.jpg

And there was the mass shooting threat at Utah State, other death threats made towards women, people actively stalking women and talking about stalking them on Twitter and a lot more transphobia. Check Sarah's Twitter feed for the horrid transphobia.
But this is massively off-topic and should be brought back on topic.

 

[paperboywriter]

Right to work, fully vested retirement, complete healthcare, right to housing, right to child care, right to uni level education, the right to live without racism while West Germany was putting Nazi's back into government positions?

Sounds awful.

And considering the Germans are electing the SED back into power says more than I could.

Are you shitting Me and gaf? Hope this is a joke post. I'm from eastern Germany and let me tell you, we didn't want to live like this anymore. Not In The slightest.

 

[LordJim]

Uhh, #GG keeps sending SWAT teams to the households of trans women with the expressed goal that the police will either kill these women or the women will commit suicide due to stress and harassment. And they're now sending dead animals and pictures of murdered trans women to trans women's emails and houses to encourage them to commit suicide.

Of course they do.
It has their signature all over it.

I am sure the masterminds will be arrested like Michaloliakos soon.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Are you shitting Me and gaf? Hope this is a joke post. I'm from eastern Germany and let me tell you, we didn't want to live like this anymore. Not In The slightest.

Check the link.

SED was voted back into power in Thuringia.

 

[Daedardus]

Regarding cheap labour, it should be noted that in a big chunk of the 'they are stealing our jobs' cases, they are doing jobs the locals wouldn't even do. You wouldn't want to clean the dirtiest toilets in the whole city, and especially not at an outrageous wage. That wage is part of the problem why those people become marginalised, but it's still us that take advantage of cheap labour. For example, in my country, there are quite a lot immigrants in certain cities, but it was us who brought them here because we deemed ourselves too good to work in the mines. Now the mines are closed but those people stayed for obvious reasons.

No, more that people are actively joining the only parties that are addressing the issue of failed integration and cultural relativism.

I really doubt that Europe is significantly more racist than say, the US or Canada. But our (U.S.) major immigration opposition arises from xenophobia and a big chunk of the population believing that social welfare is for communists, not from fear of a religious takeover. I think it's easier to stir the extremist pot when you can point out the "other" having a shared culture that stands in contrast to the secular society that Europe grew accustomed to in the 20th century.

That's quite simplistic.

If I'm reading the posts you're talking about, it seems the argument being made is that many European governments have refused to engage with a public that's becoming more disgruntled with immigration... then because the issues surrounding immigration aren't adequately addressed by mainstream moderate parties, people turn to populist right wing parties like UKIP, FN etc.

I can see the logic in it to be honest, although when people in mainstream parties promise to tackle immigration it often gets ignored, much like the "where are the moderate muslims and why haven't denounced terrorist atrocity x" outcries when it's quite common for the Islamic community to do that, it just doesn't hit the headlines.

Well yeah, I can kind of understand the logic of that, but I'm confused as to how this dealing with immigrants should have been handled by the moderate parties according to the posts. Aside from non-immigration related issues, how would their solution differ from more right-wing parties. What I tried to say is that the impression I got is that we had to be 'racist' from the get-go and just block immigration, so we didn't have these problems at all and those right-wing parties wouldn't rise.

 

[Omnipunctual Godot]

Also, no love lost for historical Cossacks as they tended to slaughter Jews on a constant basis.

Do you know how many other peoples have "tended to slaughter Jews" at some point or another in history? Would you have supported a mass-extermination of the German people following World War II? I suppose the Germans who post here will appreciate knowing that.

You call me gullible when you are justifying the genocide of the Cossacks because your Communist heroes decreed it. You write off the tortures and systematic murder of innocents that were ordered from the top down with "It's war, bad shit happens." Truly, truly repulsive.

 

[ksan]

Check the link.

SED was voted back into power in Thuringia.

How does that prove your point?

 

[mellz]

You should all read this book if you want to know about the atrocities commited by capitalism which are at least on the same level as Stalin, Pot and Mao etc.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Do you know how many other peoples have "tended to slaughter Jews" at some point or another in history? Would you have supported a mass-extermination of the German people following World War II? I suppose the Germans who post here will appreciate knowing that.

You call me gullible when you are justifying the genocide of the Cossacks because your Communist heroes decreed it. You write off the tortures and systematic murder of innocents that were ordered from the top down with "It's war, bad shit happens." Truly, truly repulsive.

I really love how you Neo Cons just make shit up as you go.

Of course I don't support mass extermination of anyone, and neither did I say so, and neither were the Cossacks exterminated. A small percentage that took up arms against the Soviets were killed, a larger percentage were deported due to their fairly nasty history.

Just like I don't get upset over Germany being invaded and losing their right to self determination via the Allied occupation, I don't boo hoo over a small percentage of a group of historical and brutal Anti Semites who died in a civil war and who's allies were removed from society.

I appreciate your dismissive attitude towards the Jewish people though.

From Wiki:

In contrast, a Russian historian L. Futorayansky asserts that widespread estimates of hundreds of thousands or millions of people being repressed are unsubstantiated. He notes, as an example, that that claims made by Denikin's "Commission for Investigation of Bolshevik Crimes"—that 5598 people were executed in Stavropol, 3,442 in the Don region, and 2,142 in the Kuban—were exaggerated.[21] He also points out, "Eugene Losev in his book "Mironov" shows the monstrous cruelty of the "decossackization" statistics by the Reds in the Don, with more than 1000 shot...Recall at least that in the period of the Krasnov's rule on the Don, more than 45 thousand were shot and hanged. The total number of the executions was more than half of the entire Krasnov army. A recent book estimates that Krasnov's forces shot 25 thousand... But this is still 25 times the measures taken by the Reds."

Those poor Cossacks. They killed 25000 - 45000 Jews and other people and those evil Soviets had to gall to shoot the 1000 of them that were responsible or resisted.

How does that prove your point?

It proves my point in that he doesn't represent all of East Germany.

 

[Mrmartel]

I'm more pessimistic. We are literally seeing a massive changing of the guard right in front of us. By the later half of this century, we'll see, for the first time in centuries to even a millenia, the West/Europe will no longer be the dominant economic, military power on the planet.

That will create fear and uneasiness. It's all good right now because of the centuries of colonization, industrialization have created first world nations. But if you actually notice, you'll see Europe is losing at the very things they started. Manufacturing, resource export, even education. There are more research graduates every year from India and China than the entire populations of European countries. It's hard to think about now. But imagine in 50 years, when you have India and China have economies as large as the EU combined? Larger than the US. When sanction power is removed from the west?

So what happens? You'll see fewer and fewer skilled jobs, decline in manufacturing and industrial jobs, you'll see European firms and corporations bought by Asian/Indian ones, you'll see migration rise until it becomes lucrative to migrate to Asian places. Think about how many people in Europe and the US are looking for jobs in China, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, India.

But on the topic at hand. How do you combat it? You need to actively engage what these people are saying. No I'm not saying you support what they're about. But it will have to be compromise. History has shown us, moderates and progressives eventually lose against fundamentalists/hardliners/extremists.

This is a reason why I am so pessimistic of the future as well. The west has been at the fore front for so long now that anybody alive just does not know the possible consequences from this hand over of power. All we have to go on is History and from what little I know the only peaceful change over in a world power has been the British Empire to the Americans (that had it's share of destruction as well, although not between them, but rather outside forces). Every other situation has been blood stained. I'm not saying that China and India are going to war with the West. But the decline and power of western states/governments in the future will in my opinion, cause great strains socially, financially and culturally. This creates unstability, which through it, ugly ideology's and beliefs emerge.

 

[ksan]

It proves my point in that he doesn't represent all of East Germany.

No, I'm referring to the fact that you were arguing that the DDR wasn't awful because of the results of a current day election result. How does it prove that?

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

No, I'm referring to the fact that you were arguing that East Germany wasn't awful because of the results of a current day election result. How does it prove that?

I never said East Germany didn't have considerable problems. I even blame the USSR for many of them.

My original point was that Marxist Leninist states outlawed racism. Someone said this was bad. I said not if you're poor and used the GDR's social programs as an example.

 

[Mael]

snip

Dude seriously if you want to be taken seriously one good start would to stop treating everyone you interact with as if they were Dick Cheney

I never said East Germany didn't have considerable problems. I even blame the USSR for many of them.

My original point was that Marxist Leninist states outlawed racism. Someone said this was bad. I said not if you're poor and used the GDR's social programs as an example.

Outlawing racism is one goddamn joke if I ever saw one.
Might as well outlaw murder and all nasty things people hate while we're at it.

 

[Omnipunctual Godot]

I really love how you Neo Cons just make shit up as you go.

I really love how you label someone a Neo Con knowing virtually nothing about his/her politics, before immediately chiding the person for "making shit up as you go." Lol, sheer brilliance on display.

Of course I don't support mass extermination of anyone and neither were the Cossacks exterminated.

Right, so that's why you callously said this regarding their genocide at the hands of the Bolsheviks one whole post ago:

Also, no love lost for historical Cossacks as they tended to slaughter Jews on a constant basis.

Jesus, could you possibly be any more disingenuous?

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

Comparing a far right party that trains child soldiers and kills people that disagree with them in politics, not just post mean words on the web, with a group involved in social media pissing contest is ridiculous.

The complete lack of perspective is amazing.

 

[JimmyRustler]

This is a reason why I am so pessimistic of the future as well. The west has been at the fore front for so long now that anybody alive just does not know the possible consequences from this hand over of power. All we have to go on is History and from what little I know the only peaceful change over in a world power has been the British Empire to the Americans (that had it's share of destruction as well, although not between them, but rather outside forces). Every other situation has been blood stained. I'm not saying that China and India are going to war with the West. But the decline and power of western states/governments in the future will in my opinion, cause great strains socially, financially and culturally. This creates unstability, which through it, ugly ideology's and beliefs emerge.

It won't. Thank globalism. If no one profits, there is no war.

 

[Mrmartel]

It won't. Thank globalism. If no one profits, there is no war.

I guess I have a view that while Globalism will continue into the future, there still will be winners/losers and I think the west will be a loser. Maybe not drastically so, but enough to create instability. Nationalism, religious fundamentalism, and self interests also seem to be increasing around the world which could also throw a wrench into a perfectly tuned global machine.

 

[PeregrinSe7en]

Immigration will always be a problem. Specially in the european cases where the main immigrants are islamic, that's a whole different culture than ours (western). In my opinion, immigrants should adapt to the new country culture.

You have to keep in mind what islamic culture represents for western people in todays world. Also, most immigrants are poor and go to Europe to take advantage of social policies and some of them just go and start their own criminal activities. Of course locals will get mad

I don't think racism is really that involved. Xenophobia would be more accurate

i have to agree with this.

these european countries shouldnt have to "adjust" their culture so immigrants can have it their way.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Dude seriously if you want to be taken seriously one good start would to stop treating everyone you interact with as if they were Dick Cheney

If someone wants the discussion to remain civil then I'd like for them to stop with the strawman arguments.

Might as well outlaw murder and all nasty things people hate while we're at it.

You... you do realize that murder is illegal, right?

Right, so that's why you callously said this regarding their genocide at the hands of the Bolsheviks one whole post ago:

One or two thousand dead during a Civil War against a regime that killed dozens of thousands of people for simply being Jewish isn't Genocide.

Jesus, could you possibly be any more disingenuous?

Claim I'm disingenuous yet you throw out bullshit non history like "the cossacks were wiped out as a race".

Maybe if you didn't regurgitate every bit of hysterical propaganda you've seen I wouldn't assume you're just another Neo Con.

Research by P. Polian from Russia's Academy of Sciences on the subject of forced migrations in Russia shows that more than 45,000 Cossacks were deported from the Terek province to Ukraine. Their land was distributed among pro-soviet Cossacks and Chechens.

Providing land for the Cossacks that didn't take up arms against the government and weren't a part of the deposed murderous anti Semitic regime?

That's a really weird way to conduct genocide.

 

[Mael]

If someone wants the discussion to remain civil then I'd like for them to stop with the strawman arguments.

You're the one with the name calling.
The way it looks like is that you're being needlessly antagonistic for no reason at all.

You... you do realize that murder is illegal, right

And that's why murder never happens.
Saying that you want something gone by only making it illegal is the biggest joke ever.
That certainly didn't make drug consumption go away that's for sure.
If anything you're validating the argument that your only real interest is not in protecting minorities or anything but in controlling other people.

 

[Omnipunctual Godot]

Claim I'm disingenuous yet you throw out bullshit non history like "the cossacks were wiped out as a race".

Maybe if you didn't regurgitate every bit of hysterical propaganda you've seen I wouldn't assume you're just another Neo Con..

Oh, I do claim that you are being disingenuous (or ignorant), but I have evidence for my claim: find me the post in which I said "the Cossacks were wiped out as a race."

Go ahead, I'll wait.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

You're the one with the name calling.
The way it looks like is that you're being needlessly antagonistic for no reason at all.

I could just accuse them of supporting mass murder like they do me if that makes you feel better.

in controlling other people.

This is exactly it. I want to control other people by having consequences for blatant racism.

Unless your argument is that since laws are ineffective we shouldn't have any at all...

Go ahead, I'll wait.

You call me gullible when you are justifying the genocide of the Cossacks because your Communist heroes decreed it.

Not a 1:1 quote but that's basically how I took it. If you want to claim you meant something different then fine, my mistake.