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How did Nintendo lose it's edge on controls this generation?

deleted

Member
Ever since their first console, Nintendo made sure that they had direct and simple to grasp input methods.
They had the D-Pad, then the Shoulder Buttons with colored Face-Buttons, they had the Analog Stick with an Octagon, they had great ergonomics with the Gamecube controller, Wireless with the Wavebird, they reinvented themselves with the Wiimote.

nintendo-controller-g3duhe.gif

the gif has the inferior SNES buttons

Now we have the Wii U and they seem to have dropped the ball hard. They have too many input methods and can't serve one completely right.
While I appreciate that you can use last gens controllers on the Wii U, it brought forth a fundamental problem: The new ones are sometimes not supported, because Nintendo didn't establish a standard for themselves.

The Wii U Pro Controller is almost perfect. Except: I can't use it in some games, because it doesn't have a gyro. It also won't work for VC GameCube games, because they dropped the analog shoulder pads, while everyone else adopted them.

Look at Nintendoland: Pobably the best collection of asynchronus Multiplayer games I ever played. But not playable with the set of Pro Controllers I own. I have to also have 4 loaded Wiimotes at hand, if I want to switch from Mario Kart 8 to Nintendoland to play the Luigi, Animal Crossing or Mario mini games, that would not require them. NSMBWiiU was on launch not playable with the Pro Controller, but at least that has been patched since. There are several games, where I can't use the pro Controller as Player 1, but the other players can.

They also have not been able to follow up on Nintendoland with concepts that make full use of the Gamepad. The best games to make use of it were released at launch with Zombie U and Nintendoland (maybe Affordable Space Adventures can fix this, but it's an Indie game coming 2,5 years after launch, not a Nintendo game).
Furthermore they have dropped the Octagon on the Sticks this gen, which probably lead to a less then perfect 8 way controlled Mario 3D World instead of true analog control. It also makes backward compability in games like Super Mario 64 much worse.

But that is not all. On top of all this, they now have a lag issue in their VC. SNES and N64 games have way more lag when played on the Pro Controller. It has been there from the start and they don't seem to care or can't fix it.

This gen, they managed to scramble in an area where they once dominated with innovation, setting industry standards and know how. They somehow managed to get the fundamental basics of a console wrong. I don't care how they compare in graphics or power consumption with the others, as long as they nail the gameplay. But how can they do that, if they don't get the controls right?
This will always be a stain on an otherwise really great collection of games for me.

I know this is an issue long known, but since the release of Super Mario 64 on the VC it became apparent for me again and I wanted to get this of my chest. Hopefully they manage to rectify this next gen.
 

Chinbo37

Member
While its nice being about to reuse old Wii controllers, there is just too many control options and force feeding the gamepad was a bad idea.
 

deleted

Member
To start, not being able to use more than one GamePad is a massive failure.

Yep, that would have opened up fantastic opportunities with Zelda 4 Swords, Madden, FIFA and all kinds of other games, but we all know how that worked out.

Nintendo wanted to enable this as a feature after launch with putting separate GamePads on the shelf. Sad it didn't work out.
 

orioto

Good Art™
It's the simple result of Nintendo wanting to do many things in the same time. Adding strategy on top of other strategies.. Mainly wanting to do something new while keeping the roots of their past console, and wanting to focus on gamer while keeping the mainstream power of the wii..

WiiU was always the product of an impossible positioning..
 

Celine

Member
It's the simple result of Nintendo wanting to do many things in the same time. Adding strategy on top of other strategies.. Mainly wanting to do something new while keeping the roots of their past console, and wanting to focus on gamer while keeping the mainstream power of the wii..

WiiU was always the product of an impossible positioning..
Well written.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
I agree, Nintendo should have stuck to one standard. Use just the new controller that comes with the console, like PS4 and Xbone.
 
I love the gamepad! Hell, I want one with a better screen and better battery life, I'd pay premium for that.

But I do wish more games used the Wiimote Plus, that thing is godly.

And the Pro Controller is AMAZING(Dat battery life), I get what you're saying, you can't use it for every single game, but I don't mind using different controllers
 

purdobol

Member
Yeah nintendoland is the worst offender here. It even doesn't let you use nunchuk with wiimote in some games. Using d-pad in mario chase for example is wrong.
 

Aostia

El Capitan Todd
the Gamepad is the best traditional controller for me (has any kind of inout, minus the progressive triggers), with tons of additional possibilities (both the touch and gyros to control, and the screen to play in different way, off-tv and asymmetric second screen).
plus, they give you backward compatibility with previous controllers (very appreciated, I didn't spend a penny to play with friends, this time), including the classic controller, and the Pro one is really great.
Honestly, I think that the Wii U has the best set/opportunities among consoles, at least for me.
I can understand people that doesn't agree with me, but "losing the edge" or "dropping the ball"....nope. at all.
 
I'd only go so far if I felt like any game we've seen could have explicitly benefited from more than one.

I tried 2 Player Online on Mario Kart 8 for the first time this weekend and was super disappointed that you couldn't have one player using the screen on the GamePad and the other using the TV. Even the screen on the GamePad is split. Seems like such a wasted opportunity.

I do find it comfortable to use though.
 

Richie

Member
Real talk, I love the Gamepad, but business wise, it should have been sold separately a la Kinect, while a Wiimote Plus, a Nunchuck and a Pro Controller should have been included in the box.

Then again NFC...
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
I still really like the Gamepad. I find it comfortable, super useful in games like Deus Ex or Wind Waker. But yeah, there are always little issues that kinda take away from it - mainly the triggers and the issues of lag with the VC games with the Pro Controller.
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
On the flipside. Super long battery life for the Pro Controller.

The only time I felt the GamePad was a problem was with Smash because they decided the stop match button combination should be the same for all controllers and it's awkward as heck to enter on the GamePad due to the position of the start button.

As for lag in VC games, is that a GamePad issue or a software issue considering other games don't suffer from it as much?
 

Striek

Member
The attempt to support Wii peripherals was half-assed. There should've jettisoned it. In theory the Wiipad is the best controller out there in functionality. It offers easier and more tangible benefits than the DS4 touchpad or Kinect. It's just half realised because the off-tv mode offered a lazy solution that doesn't utilise it in game design. In adamant that without off-tv greater things would've happened on the system.

But let's be fair, Nintendo also dropped the ball with the N64 and GC controllers. The aforementioned was an abomination despite its innovation and while the GC has many devout fans it has at least as many people who don't agree that it's ergonomic or well designed.
 

Garou

Member
Meh, you are ignoring the primary controller of the system for your argument, remember the Pro Controller is the optional one here. And the Gamepad is just as revolutionary because of Off-TV-gameplay.
 

iMerc

Member
how could they possibly have dropped the ball in 'controls', when they offer the most variety in input methods?
they're all proven, legitimate alternatives to each other.
classic controller pro, wiiU classic controller, wii remote & nunchuck, gcn adaptor, wavebird, and wiiUpad etc; are all viable methods of control that work well and offer great response time.

your argument is less about the technical accessibly, functionality, & merit of their controllers, and seemingly more about sending a 'clear marketing message' of what specific 'input method' to use.
in this case, yes they have dropped the ball.
the 'effort' to think constructively on how to support all these different control methods may also be half assed -but again that's less a technical issue of controller functionality, and more about fumbling around to support a specific device.
again this is a managerial failure, not a 'controller failure'.

their 'controller' know-how is as sharp as it's ever been. i see no evidence to the contrary that implies 'nintendo doesn't know how to make a functional controller anymore'.
 

Craft

Member
I wish Sony and Microsoft would follow suit with the legacy controller support offered by Nintendo, in fact you'de think it would make sense for the Xbox One controller to be compatible with the Xbox 360 too, and the DS4 to be compatible with the PS3 (although I think it supports some games when plugged in).

Edit: looks like the DS4 is now works wirelessly on the PS3 but some functions are still disabled.
 

oni-link

Member
I like the gamepad, don't have any issue with it at all.

I like it too, but would have preferred the pro controller as the main input device and then the gamepad as something you can buy if you want it, I don't think anything it can do makes the games that use it that much better than they would have been if built around the pro controller, and it would have meant the console could be sold a lot cheaper too

And now we have a messy situation where games on Wii and Wii U might be impossible to port or re-release on the NX without expecting the user to have an entire box full of working controllers

My Wiimotes are almost a decade old, if I want to play some Wii games I missed on the NX (even if they're just downloadable) then what if they don't work? Even if they do it is a hassle, and maybe motion control tech will be much better then, so going back to a Wiimote will be annoying/jarring

Meanwhile I can play PS1 and PS2 and PS3 games flawlessly on a PS3 with a DS3, and if they ever make it over to the PS4 then I'll be able to do the same with a DS4
 

deleted

Member
It's the simple result of Nintendo wanting to do many things in the same time. Adding strategy on top of other strategies.. Mainly wanting to do something new while keeping the roots of their past console, and wanting to focus on gamer while keeping the mainstream power of the wii..

WiiU was always the product of an impossible positioning..

Hear, hear!

I like the gamepad, don't have any issue with it at all.

I also don't have an issue with the Gamepad - it opens up many possibilities. And without it, games like Nintendoland would have been much harder to realize. But I also don't want to use it, if I don't have to, I like the ergonomics of the Wii U Pro Controllers better.

the Gamepad is the best traditional controller for me (has any kind of inout, minus the progressive triggers), with tons of additional possibilities (both the touch and gyros to control, and the screen to play in different way, off-tv and asymmetric second screen).
plus, they give you backward compatibility with previous controllers (very appreciated, I didn't spend a penny to play with friends, this time), including the classic controller, and the Pro one is really great.
Honestly, I think that the Wii U has the best set/opportunities among consoles, at least for me.
I can understand people that doesn't agree with me, but "losing the edge" or "dropping the ball"....nope. at all.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with the Gamepad as an input device. But Nintendo didn't establish a standard. On a game to game basis, they switch between 3 main sources of input that are often incompatible with each other.
Full use of the Gamepad will make the use of the Wiimote and the Pro Controller nigh impossible.
The full use of the Wiimote will cut out at least the Pro Controller.
Gyro usage makes the Pro Controller unusable in games. Using all face buttons will create a problem for the Wiimote.
They also design games around the Wiimote held sideways and have to put multiple functions on two face buttons + waggle + digi pad like in Mario 3D World, which makes the experience much worse than it could be and holds the game back.
If they established a standard or designed the games around the usage of multiple controllers instead of designing around the lowest common denominator, there wouldn't be much of a problem.
 

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
There's also the legendary 3ds, which has basically a week of wrist pains before you can adjust.
Ugh.
 

Woo-Fu

Banned
I'd only go so far if I felt like any game we've seen could have explicitly benefited from more than one.

Chicken and egg. Nobody is going to make such a game when most of the systems only have one of those controllers.

From a practical standpoint if I had > 1 child I wouldn't buy a Wii U. Who wants to referee endless arguments over who gets to use the good controller?
 

Sintoid

Member
Real talk, I love the Gamepad, but business wise, it should have been sold separately a la Kinect, while a Wiimote Plus, a Nunchuck and a Pro Controller should have been included in the box.

Then again NFC...

This and most of all 3DS should have been the real WiiU Gamepad.
 

zoukka

Member
The Wii U controller jungle is a clusterfuck for sure. It's great for enthusiasts who are willing to store/manage/charge/change batteries for ten different controllers but for the rest it's a confusing hell of junk that doesn't fit anywhere.

I would love a complete reboot for NX. Ditch all backwards support for all prior hardware except maybe for classic pro.
 
I hate it how the Wii U offers you so many different control options. (Like many other core gamers), I never liked the Wiimote either. Just give me a good joypad and I'm happy. Forget about all that wannabe "we will revolutionize the industry" crap.
 
I'm not a lover of the game pad. It's too big whilst the buttons are too small. The battery life is terrible and it has a screen which is practically useless the majority of the time. The Controller Pro should have been standard and the Gamepad optional for what's it's worth.
 

purdobol

Member
They also design games around the Wiimote held sideways and have to put multiple functions on two face buttons + waggle + digi pad like in Mario 3D World, which makes the experience much worse than it could be and holds the game back.

What ? Confused Mario 3D world with Super Mario Bros Wii U i guess.
But you have a point with lack of standard. Some games support nunchuks, some pro controller. It's confusing at times.
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Nintendo loves to chuck control innovation out there, then lose interest a generation later like they have some attention deficit syndrome.

The problem this time around is they went into the WiiU with very few new ideas at all, real low energy "tape some wiimotes to a screen?" entries. In the new "tech startup" age as well, the slow moving Nintendo behemoth isn't at the forefront of any revolutions in control at all. The entire VR industry is whizzing by, with input solutions all racing to be the standard, multi-touch has been a standard in touch screens for a decade, and even the bringing down of Wacom digitiser costs means their ancient stylus stuff sticks out like a sore thumb. Nintendo has, quite simply, not really been buying up many new technologies to be able to cobble together new control paradigms. The groundwork for the Wii remote came from just such an acquisition for instance, and it feels like Iwata and co have been pretty sheepish in grabbing stuff since. The WiiU's WiFi streaming tech, while impressive, has been a solid dead-end. It'll be more relevant the other way round, streaming the handheld to the USB stick plugged into the TV however for that hybrid system they should definitely be making.

You could also blame the unified global groan at the Vitality Sensor unveil, that seemingly resulted in it being so shit-canned it'll be QoL-bound if at all. Definitely feels like Nintendo had an identity crisis at that E3 and shortly afterwards with very little clear direction.
 

deleted

Member
Meh, you are ignoring the primary controller of the system for your argument, remember the Pro Controller is the optional one here. And the Gamepad is just as revolutionary because of Off-TV-gameplay.

Then tell me: How do I play multiplayer with one Gamepad? Local Multiplayer is my main usage of the Wii U.

how could they possibly have dropped the ball in 'controls', when they offer the most variety in input methods?
they're all proven, legitimate alternatives to each other.
classic controller pro, wiiU classic controller, wii remote & nunchuck, gcn adaptor, wavebird, and wiiUpad etc; are all viable methods of control that work well and offer great response time.

your argument is less about the technical accessibly, functionality, & merit of their controllers, and seemingly more about sending a 'clear marketing message' of what specific 'input method' to use.
in this case, yes they have dropped the ball.
the 'effort' to think constructively on how to support all these different control methods may also be half assed -but again that's less a technical issue of controller functionality, and more about fumbling around to support a specific device.
again this is a managerial failure, not a 'controller failure'.

their 'controller' know-how is as sharp as it's ever been. i see no evidence to the contrary that implies 'nintendo doesn't know how to make a functional controller anymore'.

Why did they drop the Octagon then? Why do we have input lag where it wasn't before? Why didn't they add a gyro the Wii U Pro controller? Why did they lose the analog triggers?
I don't care how the console is marketed. I want to use it with the controllers they sell me (for a high price at that) in the same way I could use the Wii, the Gamecube or the N64 - Plug and play without having to think about potential faults in the design or software of the controller.
 

Ninja Dom

Member
To start, not being able to use more than one GamePad is a massive failure.

Not at all.

I've had a Wii U from launch, my Wii U is my main console (don't have a PS4 or Xbox One) and not being able to use more than one GamePad hasn't affected me once.
 
They didn't, at least for me. The gamepad is awesome, and it's nice to have so many inputs available. I think they should are more compatibility between games though.
 

KJRS_1993

Member
I personally think Nintendo lost their mojo with controllers in 2007 and the Wii.
The Wii remote was good with Wii sports sure, but it put me off every Nintendo game ever since.

Couldn't be bothered with Skyward Sword in the slightest, and I was a major league Zelda fan until then.
 
the last great nintendo console for real gamers was n64. it had its fair share of mistakes, but it did a lot of things right and offered a lot of amazing games. gamecube was the start of nintendos gradual change to offering consoles primarily for facebook gamers. i mean their current controller is basically a large cell phone ffs.
 

Ninja Dom

Member
Makes Wiimote mandatory for many multiplayer games.

Doesn't initially include one in the box.

True

But I believe that most of the 9 million Wii U owners were also among the 101 million Wii owners.

Also, don't all the other consoles come with just one controller now? Been that way since the 90's.
 

deleted

Member
When did GameCube games become available on the VC?

They aren't but they easily could be in the same vain as the Wii titles like Nintendon't shows. You could replace GCN VC with SSB Wii U or Racing Games, where the absence of the analog triggers is severely missed.

What ? Confused Mario 3D world with Super Mario Bros Wii U i guess.
But you have a point with lack of standard. Some games support nunchuks, some pro controller. It's confusing at times.

Nope, 3D World has running and grabbing on the same button, which makes multiplayer sometimes hilarious, most of the time hell to play, when you want to collect stars.
It also ditched full analog control in favor of 8 way controls. If that is because of the Wiimote or the missing Octagon, I don't know though.

Edit: Now that I think about it, NSMBWiiU did the grabbing players and things way better with the waggle.
 
the last great nintendo console for real gamers was n64. it had its fair share of mistakes, but it did a lot of things right and offered a lot of amazing games. gamecube was the start of nintendos gradual change to offering consoles primarily for facebook gamers. i mean their current controller is basically a large i-pad ffs.

real gamers





fucking seriously?
 
Not at all.

I've had a Wii U from launch, my Wii U is my main console (don't have a PS4 or Xbox One) and not being able to use more than one GamePad hasn't affected me once.

It doesn't affect you but it does affect the local multiplayer & party capabilities the Wii had.
 
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