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[The Albatross]

Yeah I disrespected Cena for almost all of his career, up until the last 3 or 4 years. He's actually gotten better over the last 3 years, and almost made his character more interesting than it was 10 years ago. I mostly only watch the main 4 WWF PPVs a year for big time wrestling, and while I've always wanted to dislike Cena, Cena has had some of the best matches on the card and because "It's Cena" I get interested in how the match is going to be booked.

The good stuff Cena does, his work ethic, and because he seems like a wrestler who can be a legit role model for kids makes me like him a lot. The guys who were my favorites when I Was a kid... Shawn Michaels, Randy Savage, Hogan, Bret Hart, etc., etc., a lot of them are very different out of the ring than in, and it seems like Cena is somebody who just lives his persona and does the right thing.

 

[Bronx-Man]

This is not true.

Wrestling didn't exist until 1984, dude.

 

[TarpitCarnivore]

Hogan is the most recognizable and important wrestler of all time.

Austin was the most popular wrestler at the WWF's peak.

It's a 1A / 1B situation, then there is everyone else.

That's fair. I just have grown to really hate Hogan the wreslter (and the person)

 

[shintoki]

This is not true.

The wrestling landscape changed a lot in the 80's and he was the first to achieve success outside of Wrestling. If you don't want to say Superstar, then don't. But he was definitely the first of the modern mold of the likes of The Rock and Cena.

Of course, it's more thanks to Vinny.

 

[jstripes]

This is not true.

Hulk Hogan was the first superstar of wrestling to accomplish international, trans-generational fame.

Kids today still know who he is. Well, the kind who like wrestling do. Can't say that for wrestlers before him.

 

[The Albatross]

Wasn't really popular until Hogan got there.

Outside of that, this conversation is largely WWF/WWE.

This is your Boston-area bias. I was a WWF kid too, and WWF was our territory (New York / New England), and so it was the only promotion that mattered around here. Outside of the North East, nobody cared about WWF until Vince literally tried to buy his way into every market and push NWA off of TV. The reason NWA -> WCW persisted is that people in those areas did not care about WWF. Vince usually went back to Northern venues for his big PPVs because he wouldn't have sold out huge wrestling cities like Charleston, Memphis, Atlanta, Minneapolis, etc., that regularly sold out for NWA and AWA shows. WWF first major PPVs outside of northern cities was Wrestlemania VII in California and it was famously a massive failure, as they had to move venues because ticket sales were so bad at the original LA Colliseum, they would have had an empty stadium for Wrestlemania. But if you look at every WWF PPV from 1984 - 1990, almost every major show is in either New York, New Jersey, Michigan, or Ohio. They hardly ever did major shows outside of those states, and really, hardly any outside of just NY and NJ, because they couldn't sell tickets elsewhere.

That line about WCW being popular once Hogan got there could be applied to WWF far more than WCW. For most of wrestling history, the NWA Championship was the premier championship. Guys would go to New York to work on their mic skills and make money at big MSG gates, but WWF-style wrestling did not draw anywhere outside of the North East. When Flair came to WWF in ~1991, that angle was so hot because he had THE World Title, and when Flair bestowed that to the WWF World Title at the 1992 Rumble is was brilliant and considered one of the best promos of all time. Unsurprisingly, of course, Vince was mad at Flair for the promo and didn't like it.

I only brought up Flair when someone mentioned a true GOAT across wrestling. As a WWF kid I was always much more into WWF than WCW, but since I've gone back and really watched more and followed more wrestling, I've realized that I've always carried a bias against WCW.

 

[Data West]

That's fair. I just have grown to really hate Hogan the wreslter (and the person)

i mean austin beat his wife

 

[Chumley]

In 2017 I don't know how you can argue that Hogan is more recognized than The Rock. Every living fan of wrestling knows who they both are, but only one of them is also one of the most famous current Hollywood actors.

 

[Couleurs]

Austin will always be my favorite but honestly out of those four...I gotta give it to Cena, and I'm not even the biggest fan of Cena.

Agreed on both parts. Austin is also my favorite, and he is probably the greatest combination of mic skills/charisma/ring ability (even with him having to take on more of a brawling style after his neck injury), but I have a hard time calling him the best ever when his peak was so short.

Rock is a similar situation to Austin; he was great but didn't stay in wrestling long enough to be considered the best ever.

Hogan had a ton of charisma but his matches were generally terrible.

Cena pretty much wins by default, if we are only considering these four.

 

[Heroman]

The wrestling landscape changed a lot in the 80's and he was the first to achieve success outside of Wrestling. If you don't want to say Superstar, then don't. But he was definitely the first of the modern mold of the likes of The Rock and Cena.

Of course, it's more thanks to Vinny.

There were people like Ed “Strangler” Lewis buddy Rogers , Lou thez and Gorgeous George who were legit stars of there era.

 

[MC Safety]

In 2017 I don't know how you can argue that Hogan is more recognized than The Rock. Every living fan of wrestling knows who they both are, but only one of them is also one of the most famous current Hollywood actors.

The Rock certainly fared better as an actor.

But without Thunderlips, there would be no Hercules.

 

[LionPride]

Love Austin but... Flair.

Arn > Flair

 

[TarpitCarnivore]

i mean austin beat his wife

I was mainly referring to Hogan in-ring and as a wrestler. I'd rather watch broken down Austin than most Hogan matches.

 

[Heroman]

Arn > Flair

Flair main evented in front 100,000+ people.

 

[Tall4Life]

In 2017 I don't know how you can argue that Hogan is more recognized than The Rock. Every living fan of wrestling knows who they both are, but only one of them is also one of the most famous current Hollywood actors.

The Rock as a celebrity maybe, but not a professional wrestler. I'll talk sometimes about Rock in the WWF/WWE to people and they'll be totally shocked that he was a wrestler. Everyone associates Hogan with being a wrestler.

 

[Heroman]

I was mainly referring to Hogan in-ring and as a wrestler. I'd rather watch broken down Austin than most Hogan matches.

The werid thing is that Hogana was very good wreslter but for some reason prolaris America told him to do less.

 

[JaseMath]

Arn > Flair

Arn Anderson? Maybe...if we're comparing him to someone like Hacksaw Jim Duggan.

 

[TarpitCarnivore]

The werid thing is that Hogana was very good wreslter but for some reason prolaris America told him to do less.

So I've heard, but he only got more boring and awful as he aged. Him at Mania 9 is just groan inducing and then fucking Hogan Warrior 2 match, christ.

 

[Big One]

Naw

I mean you're talking about a guy that has consistently been juggling promotional work, Make-a-Wish, a full-time WWE career with a couple of small breaks (recently), as well as an acting career as of recent and that's ignoring the fact that he's constantly filming reality TV for Total Divas/Bellas. The guy's work ethic is impressive as fuck. Him and even the Rock are real life super-workers, but I have to give a nod to Cena more-so cause he actually stays in WWE.

 

[funkystudent]

Flair main evented in front 100,000+ people.

In North Korea.

The nation of Kayfabe.

 

[DMczaf]

In a shoot or worked match?

 

[The Albatross]

There were people like Ed “Strangler” Lewis buddy Rogers , Lou thez and Gorgeous George who were legit stars of there era.

While I get what you're saying, I agree with what the other posters are saying because Hogan was really the first to be universally recognizable outside of wrestling fans. They were wrestling stars of their era, but Hogan was legitimately a star who happened to get his stardom from wrestling.

It's not all Hogan though. A ton of Hogan's fame has to do with the emergence of cable television, PPV, and of course, Vince aggressively trying to push wrestling as mainstream entertainment and brilliantly forcing wrestling into every possible media outlet. It was just a different world, but Hogan still simply hit his fame at the right time, so even if it wasn't all him, he was the guy who reached super stardom at the perfect time.

I'd imagine if you did a name association and asked 10,000 random people to come up with a name they associate with wrestling, Hogan would probably still be at or around the top and everybody could name him. I don't think that 10,000 random people would be able to name Lou Thez back in 1957, let alone 35+ years after his debut.

 

[Takuan]

BEAT DEBRA

OH HELL YEAH

 

[Heroman]

So I've heard, but he only got more boring and awful as he aged. Him at Mania 9 is just groan inducing and then fucking Hogan Warrior 2 match, christ.

 

[TheZink]

Who wins, and why is it Stone Cold?

EDIT: Stone Cold for me. Everything about his character defined the direction of the (then) WWF. The Rock was entertaining and legendary on the mic, but never felt authentic the same way SCSA did. Hulk was just goofy, and I can't look past the You-Can't-See-Me Cena.

The Ultimate Warrior

 

[Osakadon]

Macho Man

Ohhhh, Yeaaaahh!!

 

[Chumley]

One thing I think we can all agree on is that no one will ever be better on the mic than Stone Cold and Rock. The absolute GOAT's.

 

[Big One]

Eh I always see this brought up but it isn't that impressive. Hogan is pretty slow with the holds and looks awkward doing it (probably due to not ever using them most of the time).

 

[The Albatross]

Arn > Flair

Arn Anderson? Maybe...if we're comparing him to someone like Hacksaw Jim Duggan.

Aye. I love Arn, but Ric Flair main evented for 20 years without Arn. Without Flair, Arn was a mid-card tag teamer. When Arn and Tully Blanchard left NWA/WCW for WWF in 1988, they had a good run, defeating Demolition once at one time, and it was a nice little tag team run. Meanwhile, in WCW, Flair -- without Arn -- was main eventing every PPV and having epic battles with Ricky Steamboat, epic 45-minute matches with rookie Sting, and making Lex Luger interesting in the main event.

Arn is such a great, underrated wrestler, but the only reason you care about Arn is because of Flair. Arn's greatest singles angle is, unsurprisingly, his work against Flair.

The Ultimate Warrior

Warrior legit sucks. Terrible wrestler, delusional idiot, bad worker, seriously nonsense promos with really no talking ability other than just saying a meaningless string of words that make no sense, bad human being (before and after wrestling). I loved Warrior as a kid (had his wrestling buddy!), but there are few main eventers in WWF history who I dislike more.

I dare say he may be the worst WWF champion from 1984 - 1998. Maybe Sgt. Slaughter is worse, but probably not (and Slaughter was only champion to put over Hogan and sell WMVII). Maybe Sid is worse, but fuck it, I kinda like Sid.

 

[DMczaf]

One thing I think we can all agree on is that no one will ever be better on the mic than Stone Cold and Rock. The absolute GOAT's.

This post Raw promo they have just shows how much chemistry these 2 men had

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SjuWtIb0LQ

completely unscripted and they killed it

 

[Discotheque]

Austin >= The Rock

don't care about the other two. the hulkster had some entertaining promos though.

 

[Heroman]

Eh I always see this brought up but it isn't that impressive. Hogan is pretty slow with the holds and looks awkward doing it (probably due to not ever using them most of the time).

That a pretty smooth take down specially in the early eighties and thing about Hogan was that he was trained by legit people

 

[Big One]

Just a reminder...Austin beat his wife and is also a Trump supporter. Let that sink in for a second.

 

[Strangelove77]

I can't support the Rock after his return in the early 2010s. Shit was awful.

 

[The Albatross]

That a pretty smooth take down specially in the early eighties and thing about Hogan was that he was trained by legit people

It'a a smooth takedown for WWF-style wrestling in the early/mid-80s, but this would have been pretty average to below average for anything other than WWF 80s wrestling. Thing with Hogan that irks me is that he got worse as a wrestler throughout his career. He was trained by legit wrestlers and had to be a better wrestler in his AWA-Heel days, but if he had that talent I don't see why he didn't use any of it from 1984 - 1993. I don't mean necessarily doing quick takedowns or mat wrestling (because he should be booked as a super hero), but just about all of his matches from 1984 - 1993 are Hogan enters ring, runs wild, then gets hit with an illegal move by the heel, then gets put into a heel hold (usually nerve pinch) for 7 minutes, before he hulks up, hits a slam, boot, leg drop, finish.

Part of what made The Mega Powers explode SO good is that Randy booked a brilliant match where he got over on Hogan not using the typical boring heel holds.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Just a reminder...Austin beat his wife and is also a Trump supporter. Let that sink in for a second.

Hogan is a racist and Cena ran a meth lab [citation needed].

What does any of that have to do with their peak popularity and/or their ring talent?

 

[Irishmantis]

The Rock was always the second guy to Austin when they were both active at the same time.

I don't know man

If you put Hogan vs Macho
I'd believe it be pretty decisive before the match who the favourite and likely to take it is

With Rock and Austin, even though Austin was more the cried favourite it was not a noticeable scale

I believe if WCW had the Rock at his best, WWF would be un easy

 

[TheZink]

Aye. I love Arn, but Ric Flair main evented for 20 years without Arn. Without Flair, Arn was a mid-card tag teamer. When Arn and Tully Blanchard left NWA/WCW for WWF in 1988, they had a good run, defeating Demolition once at one time, and it was a nice little tag team run. Meanwhile, in WCW, Flair -- without Arn -- was main eventing every PPV and having epic battles with Ricky Steamboat, epic 45-minute matches with rookie Sting, and making Lex Luger interesting in the main event.

Arn is such a great, underrated wrestler, but the only reason you care about Arn is because of Flair. Arn's greatest singles angle is, unsurprisingly, his work against Flair.



Warrior legit sucks. Terrible wrestler, delusional idiot, bad worker, seriously nonsense promos with really no talking ability other than just saying a meaningless string of words that make no sense, bad human being (before and after wrestling). I loved Warrior as a kid (had his wrestling buddy!), but there are few main eventers in WWF history who I dislike more.

I dare say he may be the worst WWF champion from 1984 - 1998. Maybe Sgt. Slaughter is worse, but probably not (and Slaughter was only champion to put over Hogan and sell WMVII). Maybe Sid is worse, but fuck it, I kinda like Sid.

Chill bro. I'm just messing around.

 

[Heroman]

While I get what you're saying, I agree with what the other posters are saying because Hogan was really the first to be universally recognizable outside of wrestling fans. They were wrestling stars of their era, but Hogan was legitimately a star who happened to get his stardom from wrestling.

It's not all Hogan though. A ton of Hogan's fame has to do with the emergence of cable television, PPV, and of course, Vince aggressively trying to push wrestling as mainstream entertainment and brilliantly forcing wrestling into every possible media outlet. It was just a different world, but Hogan still simply hit his fame at the right time, so even if it wasn't all him, he was the guy who reached super stardom at the perfect time.

I'd imagine if you did a name association and asked 10,000 random people to come up with a name they associate with wrestling, Hogan would probably still be at or around the top and everybody could name him. I don't think that 10,000 random people would be able to name Lou Thez back in 1957, let alone 35+ years after his debut.

Lou thez draw a 25000 crowd in South California in the fifties that's super hard to do today. Not to mention his super popularity in Japan.

 

[Big One]

Hogan is a racist and Cena ran a meth lab [citation needed].

What does any of that have to do with their peak popularity and/or their ring talent?

Not everyone is judging those four by those two aspects and nothing else.

 

[PaleFolklore]

I reckon whoever the writers choose

 

[.JayZii]

The better question is who would you:

Fuck, Marry, Kill, Wrestle?

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

I don't know man

If you put Hogan vs Macho
I'd believe it be pretty decisive before the match who the favourite and likely to take it is

With Rock and Austin, even though Austin was more the cried favourite it was not a noticeable scale

I believe if WCW had the Rock at his best, WWF would be un easy

Every single time Austin and Rock feuded including wayyyyyyy back for the IC title, Rock was a transitional champion holding the title so that he could lose it to Austin. The only exception was Mania 19 which was Austin's retirement match.

Lou thez draw a 25000 crowd in South California in the fifties that's super hard to do today. Not to mention his super popularity in Japan.

Lou Thesz vs Rikidozan did a fucking 87 rating which means that 87% of the television sets in Japan were watching the match.

 

[Heroman]

I don't know man

If you put Hogan vs Macho
I'd believe it be pretty decisive before the match who the favourite and likely to take it is

With Rock and Austin, even though Austin was more the cried favourite it was not a noticeable scale

I believe if WCW had the Rock at his best, WWF would be un easy

Naw, talent was never the issue with WCW it was the booking and management

 

[EBreda]

When people say such and such beat X Y and Z .. isn't it all fixed before hand?

Sorry, non-american here and never followed wrestling. But isn't this a kind of soap opera with pre determined story arcs , villains and good guys?

These fights obviously are not real. What is the deciding factor on who wins and who loses? And how is it possible to discuss who beat who if everything is pre determined somehow ?

I might me completely wrong so sorry if my WWf/WWe knowledge is null.

 

[Heroman]

When people say such and such beat X Y and Z .. isn't it all fixed before hand?

Sorry, non-american here and never followed wrestling. But isn't this a kind of soap opera with pre determined story arcs , villains and good guys?

These fights obviously are not real. What is the deciding factor on who wins and who loses? And how is it possible to discuss who beat who if everything is pre determined somehow ?

I might me completely wrong so sorry if my WWf/WWe knowledge is null.

Pro Wrestling at it basically level is a fake shoot fight in which the winner is already predetermined before the match even starts. And the Booker pick the winner and loser to base off a multitude of stuff. Also most pro wrestling
Isn't a soap opera.

 

[Syphon Filter]

Hogan is like the face of wwf and wrestling, every single person knows who he is. the rock was my fav though.

 

[The Albatross]

When people say such and such beat X Y and Z .. isn't it all fixed before hand?

Sorry, non-american here and never followed wrestling. But isn't this a kind of soap opera with pre determined story arcs , villains and good guys?

These fights obviously are not real. What is the deciding factor on who wins and who loses? And how is it possible to discuss who beat who if everything is pre determined somehow ?

I might me completely wrong so sorry if my WWf/WWe knowledge is null.

Everything is predetermined, and yeah you're spot on... Good wrestling storylines are drawn up months or years in advance and matches are predetermined, and usually scripted down to a specific series of events. But when people do wrestler vs wrestler in threads like this, you're not (usually) talking who would win in a real fight, but rather, who had the best skill... Wrestling athleticism, ability to sell (eg look like you're fighting or getting hurt), ability to tell a story, ability to make your opponent look good, ability to get the fans going, strength of your fictional character, career arc, etc. Some people will also put in real life factors, like Hogan being a racist, Austin abusing his wife, Warrior​ being an asshole, etc. Usually in threads like this I try to look past that, but sometimes you can't separate that.

While wrestlers have a lot to owe to the time they were wrestling and random good fortune, usually the truly talented guys rise to the top and are put up against each other in threads like this.

It's mostly like arguing who was the best James Bond actor or who was the best actor in a mob movie, etc. You realize they're actors playing characters that we're at the fortune of good writers, but you use other characteristics to argue about it.

 

[Plinko]

I'd argue Austin did more than Hogan

This is the most wrong thing in the entire thread.

Like, not even remotely close to being true.

 

[Basketball]

i mean austin beat his wife

DRINK BEER

ahh Hell yeah



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