Explosive Zombie
Banned
Still not answering me on who decides such things, the answer seems to be that you do?
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I am completely confused now on what looks "next gen" and what not.
- Thread starter Stiflers Mom
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Still not answering me on who decides such things, the answer seems to be that you do?
Tomeru
Member
I know, I meant it as in "oh you rascal!"
INC
Member
They showed them, show will be judged
jakinov
Member
Yes. Because the developer can rely on replacing a significant amount of RAM within a second or the whole thing in a few seconds. This is opposed to waiting up to more than a minute. Will all games have drastic design changes from this?No. But they will inherently benefit anyways from load times. And it makes it feasible to pull/expect GBs of brand new game data to be readily available to different things. Developers want data to be as closer to the CPU/GPU as possible. The reason we install games on harddrives, helps gets it closer. The SSD makes it significantly closer.New game design because of SSD ?
Coolwhhip
Neophyte
He should just watch the Cerny talk. But I guess he probably doesn't care.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
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LeVictorien
Banned
This is why game companies don't want to show games too early in development, people have no idea how games are made and act like what they see is the final result.
makaveli60
Member
Last of Us II and Ghost of Tsushima looks better than anything we were shown at the PS5 event, except for Ratchet and Clank. The other games were all based on current gen engines and we've seen nothing fully nextgen yet, besides R&C. I'm sure in 2-3 years our minds will be blown.
Faenrir
Member
Developers don't care about load times anyway else they'd find a way to avoid having 5 minutes load times even on high end PCs with SSDs.
It won't make a difference, they're not going to change their ways. They use bloated game engines with tons of middleware and have unoptimized ways of loading levels.
It's only going to get worse with AAA tbh, since the teams keep getting bigger.
EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Let that mindset go, gaming isn't a scheme and gaming has always been about elevating graphics from generation to generation.
Bladed Thesis
Member
I typed up a longer response but don't want to dominate this thread and turn it into a massive discussion about game design. I'll only say that the destinations from portal to portal were not new worlds. They were small, localized, controlled environments. This isn't like jumping from a world the size of GTA 5 with all its characters, ai, etc etc and then jumping through a portal into another world the size of GTA 5.
The actual "worlds" you're talking about along the portal pathway are literally smaller than the size of a room in-game where everything is scripted, including how the sprite exits that small "world" into another portal and then into another scripted small world before coming out of a portal into a larger world the sprite can once again roam and interact with completely.
For example, if you were to die after that long portal run and you were to go through it again, each and every world would occur again in the SAME exact order, landing you in the SAME exact spot, with the SAME exact pathway in that controlled environment.
Again, I'm super pumped for R&C but to talk about the "worlds" like they are massive, sprawling open environments and not small controlled areas with scripted interactions is a bit much.
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TheCrimsnFuckr
Member
I think it is just the fact that for the first time in a long while, games are staying at the same target resolution (Xbox One X had target resolution of 4k, so will Series X and PS5) as well as diminishing returns in graphical fidelity. Games like TLOU2, Gears 5 and RDR2 already look insane (Gears 5 being the best in my opinion, as it also plays in 60FPS) and so while things like great lighting (ray tracing/better GI) and better LODs will make the games look better, we have yet to see enough actual "gameplay" where we can see the better LOD in the distance (as trailers will usually cover that up) or really see the better lighting (as scripted scenes can use certain effects to mimic features) and it just really isn't enough of a difference.
See here the Gears 5 launch trailer and the Demon Souls trailer where from the trailer they look pretty similar but I can guarantee that the Demons Souls game on PS5 will look better than the X1X version of Gears 5 during actual gameplay
See here the Gears 5 launch trailer and the Demon Souls trailer where from the trailer they look pretty similar but I can guarantee that the Demons Souls game on PS5 will look better than the X1X version of Gears 5 during actual gameplay
unintelligent orange
Member
Been saying this for the last two gens, and it looks like I'll continue to be saying it this gen. Gaming is trying to be a lame pixar bootleg these days. My theory is that its just easier to make something look good, rather than be good gameplay wise. Good gameplay requires thought and good developers. Anyone with a fat budget can make some shit 'look good'.
This industry has been lacking in substance gameplay wise for awhile now.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
we all saw how shenmue, soul calibur and doa2 on dreamcast badly trounced quake 3 and unreal tournament on pc.
Prior to 2005, name me one pc game that looked as good as gears of war or god of war on 360/ps3.
Even now horizon 2, and hellblade 2 look significantly better than anything on pc.
Both horizon and demon's soul looked spectacular. It is still unknown if demon's soul had cgi in parts of their trailer.
Digital Foundry thinks part of the trailer is cg, but in here some say it is all realtime. Imagine so good it looks that people think its cg.
From my post in the debbie downer thread, seems relevant to this thread:
@jackets showed the following comparison between horizon 1 and horizon 2.
mortal
Gold Member
We have this same discussion at the start of every new console generation. Neither PS5 nor the XBSX have released yet lol
To me next-gen equates to many things.
These are all things that can be applicable to any game, so I'm not asking for very specific examples of what constitutes as "next-gen."
I've already seen some examples of titles that meet some of those requirements from first impression, and there is still much more to come.
For most that wow moment doesn't come until 2-3 years into a new console generation, for others not even till the mid-point of cycle.
As more developers become accustomed with working with the new console architecture;
and as they optimized their engines and pipelines accordingly, we'll begin to see more standout titles taking full advantage of the new consoles.
These things take tremendous time and effort, especially as the bar continues to be raised every few years. Still I believe patience usually pays off.
To me next-gen equates to many things.
- Noticeably improved visual fidelity, i.e. games with better graphics and image quality, that support higher resolution outputs
- Better performance, as in more games running at 60+fps
- Better animation
- More intelligent and dynamic AI within games
- More interactivity and player agency within environments. Less static assets within games.
- Relative to the game design, environments with noticeably denser detail or bigger and more expansive worlds.
- Considerably faster loading times or no loading at all
- New and refined OS features with more quality of life improvements.
- More consumer friendly practices and policies.
These are all things that can be applicable to any game, so I'm not asking for very specific examples of what constitutes as "next-gen."
I've already seen some examples of titles that meet some of those requirements from first impression, and there is still much more to come.
For most that wow moment doesn't come until 2-3 years into a new console generation, for others not even till the mid-point of cycle.
As more developers become accustomed with working with the new console architecture;
and as they optimized their engines and pipelines accordingly, we'll begin to see more standout titles taking full advantage of the new consoles.
These things take tremendous time and effort, especially as the bar continues to be raised every few years. Still I believe patience usually pays off.
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TheMan
Member
My hope is that when you see the games actually running in front of your eyes on a decent TV, the upgrades will become more obvious. Still, I think a lot of the graphics updates are going to the kind that aren't immediately obvious unless you do a direct comparison to last gen graphics, which in my mind only reinforces how incremental these changes are despite horsepower being so beefed up. A long winded way of saying diminishing returns are in full effect.
That said other things like greatly decreased load times are going to be a godsend when you get your ass kicked by that boss and have to reload the game for the 10th time. Can't wait for that! Also, just having more assets on the screen like NPCs will go a long ways towards making gameworlds feel more alive.
EDIT: Almost forgot- VR stands to benefit tremendously in ways that will be obvious
That said other things like greatly decreased load times are going to be a godsend when you get your ass kicked by that boss and have to reload the game for the 10th time. Can't wait for that! Also, just having more assets on the screen like NPCs will go a long ways towards making gameworlds feel more alive.
EDIT: Almost forgot- VR stands to benefit tremendously in ways that will be obvious
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Mister Wolf
Member
Ratchet and Clank definitely looks next gen when you compare it to its PS4 counterpart. The jury still out on Spiderman.
SaucyJack
Member
I take your point, insofar as it relates to the "on rails" section jumping through multiple worlds which absolutely looked scripted. But we also saw gameplay of jumping into a world and then playing it. This is exactly the sort of gameplay mechanic that I expected to see after listening to the Road to PS5 presentation from Cerny and I was really hyped to see it in reality.
Anyway, this was my "Killzone Shadowfall moment" as far as nextgen goes.
Looking forward to seeing more.
jakinov
Member
That just means developers don't care about PC and appealing to the subset of PC users that sport better hardware. Also worth noting is that not all SSDs are the same and from what I understand the PS5 SSD is faster than all the consumer-grade SSDs on the market. So even if a poorly optimized game should see improvements in loading times if the developers choose to do nothing. I would also argue that devs would more likely to do special optimizations to make games perform better on consoles than on PC. Developers probably don't care that much whether the initial load of the game takes you 1 minute or 1 second. In the past they do however make optimizations to lower it but probably won't do the best that they can because resources and time is limited; and there's other things to do. For example, some (nobody has actually counted how many) duplicate a bunch of data so that you have to install more in order to reduce load times.
The matter at hand is that if a developer wants game data for whatever reason they can get it reliably in a small amount of time to do things that they couldn't do on older consoles leading developers to be able to do more things in game design (at their discretion). Reducing the load times is an inherent perk. Maybe they won't spend so much time to make sure it feels like 0. But if creatively, they want to do something in a game that requires working with a lot of different game data located on persistent storage "instantaneously", now it becomes more feasible to do so.
In regards to engines, a lot of companies are moving to just using third-party engines like Unreal. Which is likely going to offer people optimizations out of the box. Epic already even said they rewrote parts of their engine to work better with the PS5 SSD.
Faenrir
Member
HL², Doom 3 are from 2004.
Gears of War came out in late 2006...
UE5 will, like UE4, be very powerful. It is however, the exact contrary of optimized. It can do everything, sure. But that means it's full of stuff you'll never actually use. Which means it loads components that you don't use.
But who knows, maybe they will change things up, we'll see. I'm not convinced but i'd like to get surprised
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Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
Yes, but what we're talking here is that some are saying pc graphics prior to console launch are a good representative of console graphics throughout new console's lifetime. edit: That today's pc graphics are about what we should expect throughout the ps5 and xbox series x's lifetime.
doom 3
half life 2
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Bladed Thesis
Member
I'm looking forward to seeing more, the R&C was one of my highlights but even when you say there was gameplay in those worlds, it was shooting one or more badguys and then jumping out. Think specifically of the pirate ship looking environment. That isn't a completely designed world. Its a "room" worth of detail with a surrounding landscape environment off in the distance. These rail moments are exactly that. I didn't think of wording it like that. On rail moments, you don't look off into the distance and say "i can go there." The off the rail moments in the game, the environments definitely looked exploreable and wide open but every one of those portal moments besides the beginning area before starting that rail moment and the last area that ended the rail moment looked 100% scripted.
And that's okay. Scripted is great. But its not something unique. In fact, as I said, the fact they are scripted and designed that way LENDS ITSELF to loading the final environments. That can be done now. That is done now.
I think the portal jumping in R&C is the wrong thing to point to for the nextgen moment. The R&C graphics and even animations looked EXCEPTIONAL. But that level of graphics and animation can be done today.
Hence why it is not my Killzone moment. HZD2 was more my killzone moment but as somebody who does game on PC, I couldn't help but feel like I've seen similar. Maybe its just me.
BlitzerRadic
Member
There are people who say Horizon 2 looks barely better than HZD or that current gen games look better. These people are either trolling or don't know what they are looking at. This 8 sec clip clearly demonstrates what next gen looks like.
trapanesenyc
Banned
It's as much gameplay as HZD2 which was the best looking game last week.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Sony doesn't show promotional material if they think that material will noticably improve over time.
Things might improve (or get worse) with more development, but what you saw is what you're essentially going to get.
Bladed Thesis
Member
So Killzone 2 E3 demo to launch didn't happen?
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Faenrir
Member
It's early footage. Remember Watch Dogs ? Even TW3 was watered down compared to the early footage.
Astral Dog
Member
Some games looked amazing, others a bit more on the PS4+ side but still promising.
Also doing alot of stuff under the hood compared to the slow hard drives and jaguar cpus
Just compare Horizon 1 to Horizon 2
Also doing alot of stuff under the hood compared to the slow hard drives and jaguar cpus
Just compare Horizon 1 to Horizon 2
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nkarafo
Member
These things don't really get better each gen. In fact, they get worse. We had more 60fps games during 6th gen, for instance. Not to mention games were almost always 60fps in the pre-3D era. Animation is only up to dev skills, we still remember AI of old games like FEAR very fondly and loading times were not a thing during the cartridge era or the N64.
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Astral Dog
Member
Even considering that i have faith thanks to the huge jump in cpu and RAM optimization thanks to SSD.
Remember the current gen couldn't see its full potential realized for using mobile parts
ZywyPL
Banned
They are looking at a trailer, not an actual gameplay. You can fool yourself, but for the love of god, please don't expect others to do the same, let alone be mad that they aren't.
BlitzerRadic
Member
First of all, this is Guerrilla, not UBI. Guerrilla doesn't have a history of downgrades. Second, that's not even the argument people are making. They're saying what they see doesn't look next gen to begin with.
mortal
Gold Member
I disagree. In general all of these things have benefited from the innovations of technology over time.
So to say that they don't really improve with each new gen is not true. The access to better specs is what is makes the difference.
Exactly how developers decide to utilize new technology does not negate the fact that innovations have been made.
Using pre-3D games as a counter example is not exactly a fair comparison as game development for 3D is very different to 2D/ pixel era game development.
Considering that 3D game design evolved concurrently alongside computers and physical media that was not commercially available pre-3D.
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_Justinian_
Gold Member
I'm going to focus all my attention on PC paming for now and will just wait for the PS5 to release. Then I will decide after actual the reviews come out.
The stream hurt what looked next gen for folks. Rewatching this stuff in 4k after the stream you see the advancements of the ps5. Most of the advancements we saw on the stream were a bit more subtle like more enemies , the lighting , and the world jumping plus supposedly no load screens. This gen will simply be a more optimized/advanced version of last gen in 4k. I'm hoping that the next console (ps6) only does 4k as well so we can really see the improvements to the world and leave the jump to 8k for ps7 but that will probably not happen.
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
Almost every console generation had a resolution jump:
PS1: 320x240
PS2: 640x480
PS3: 1280x720
PS4: 1920x1080
But the jump to 4K happened with a mid gen refresh. If we hadn't already been playing 4K games in HDR for the past four years. we'd probably already be impressed just by 4K & HDR, let alone the other features.
Mister Wolf
Member
Only judge a game when they show you the view you will be using when actually playing and controlling the game..
Killer Sakoman
Member
This is not ps1 to ps2 generation where you came out from 3d graphics infancy to a more mature tech. You are coming from ps4. Games already has high resolution image, texure and advance shader. However, the difference is huge. Ps5 has very high geometry models with very high texture, smoother animation, more advanced shaders, and ultra quality post processing making the real time graphics much closer to cgi.
Killer Sakoman
Member
The game is already out on pc and doesn't look as good as the trailer.
Killer Sakoman
Member
we all saw how shenmue, soul calibur and doa2 on dreamcast badly trounced quake 3 and unreal tournament on pc.
Prior to 2005, name me one pc game that looked as good as gears of war or god of war on 360/ps3.
Even now horizon 2, and hellblade 2 look significantly better than anything on pc.
Both horizon and demon's soul looked spectacular. It is still unknown if demon's soul had cgi in parts of their trailer.
Digital Foundry thinks part of the trailer is cg, but in here some say it is all realtime. Imagine so good it looks that people think its cg.
From my post in the debbie downer thread, seems relevant to this thread:
@jackets showed the following comparison between horizon 1 and horizon 2.
You don't need to provide pictures or zoom in. Someone need to have a brain damage to not notice the difference
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Killer Sakoman
Member
Not anymore. Those two games were built from the ground up on PC. Thus they defined the new generation. Eventhough, they were surpassed by ps360 games that came after. This time around, PC games are higher resolution ports of ps4 games. Anything on PC nowadays is held back by consoles and doesn't represent the new generation.
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