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[dark10x]

fanboy? why? because I don't think games should be reduced to visions of interactive movies?

You may find it worthwhile to do a little research before pressing forward with this ridiculous charade. You honestly believe that modern gaming has been reduced to a series of interactive films? You are asking us to approach to the Wii with an open mind, yet you place an incredibly severe limit on your knowledge of the "opposing side"?

but you are trying to say that books and music would be healthier mediums if they were restricted to appeal to only those who thought of themselves as enlightened to the "finer side" of these things. right?

Industry well-being is certainly an important consideration, but you must keep in mind that successful books and music are not necessarily going to be enjoyable for everyone. In fact, the majority of trash novels and music hold absolutely no appeal for me. By that same token, a successful video game need not appeal to me either. Nintendogs was a smashing success commercially, but I absolutely detest the "game". I do not champion the success of such products as their success brings me no enjoyment of any kind.

The game industry, possibly more than any other, has proven time and again that duplication of success is a viable path for large publishers. When a game succeeds on a large scale, we often see a string of clones attempt to snatch a piece of that pie for themselves. The success of the Wii could very well result in a market flooded with software I have no interest in.

 

[iapetus]

So... if someone ELSE buys a Wii, and she happens to see it hooked up to a TV while at a party, she might go a few rounds.

Just like she might with the PS2 Singstar and Eyetoy games, or Donkey Konga.

 

[Farmboy]

if you'll close your mouth presently you might see the point of the comparison. i obviously don't mean to say that videogames are just like books or music...but it's worth asking yourself what the difference is in this case. it's worth answering my question.

It´s an interesting point

Spoiler

(although your exasperation at having to deal with indignant Nintard responses rings a little false after you deliberately added 'nintendo fans are dumb' to it)

, but is the snobbery necessary? I can't see why it should bother you that something of the admittedly questionable quality of The Lovely Bones exists and is enjoyed by millions -- you're certainly entitled to your opinion on those millions, of course, but as someone who has admitted to have pretty specific and unique tastes yourself, gaming-wise, surely you are used to having different opinions and standards than the mainstream?

Besides, books like Harry Potter are credited with bringing new readers (youngsters in this particular case) into the habit of reading. These games could theoretically do the same (although I seem to remember you disagree with the notion that these games could bring in new gamers).

Your argument would also be stronger if you didn't equate Brain Training with WiiSports. The latter is accessable for non-gamers, certainly, but it can hardly be called a non-game, nor has it 'divested itself of practically anything that makes a videogame a videogame'. In fact, in a sense it reminds me of Nintendo games of yore, which always balanced accessability for all with an amount of depth available for those who want more (at least, the creators of WiiSports have stated that it is their intent to have a nice enough breadth of moves to make the learning curve sufficiently long, if not too steep -- how this pans out remains to be seen, of course).

 

[My Arms Your Hearse]

IT BEGINS....??

Huh?

But I have to say this was rather good. I could see me playing this at a party.

Right. Nowhere is there any indication this person actually intends to buy a Wii. Simply that they would, like many other people for any given console, play it at a party/gathering with others. GROUNDBREAKING.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

why are "videogames for people who hate videogames" considered a good thing when "books for people who hate reading" or "music for people who hate music" are such obviously bad things?

Self-loathing videogame fans ftl.

 

[dark10x]

I can't see why it should bother you that something of the admittedly questionable quality of The Lovely Bones exists and is enjoyed by millions -- you're certainly entitled to your opinion on those millions, of course, but as someone who has admitted to have pretty specific and unique tastes yourself, gaming-wise, surely you are used to having different opinions and standards than the mainstream?

The videogame market is entirely different, however.

Releasing a book and releasing a videogame really can't be compared. The amount of money, time, and effort required to release a decent videogame far eclipses that of a book.

The Lovely Bones, the book, can exist without having a negative impact on the release of higher quality novels. The Lovely Bones, the game (what am I saying?), could only exist at the expense of something else. Companies have to pick and choose what they work on as there is a finite amount of money and labor available to them. If something succeeds, publishers will scramble to duplicate that success and money will flow towards the creation of such products.

Something like Psychonauts may have been praised by those who have played it, but in the eyes of a publisher, it was a complete failure. The chances of another publisher adopting a similar product becomes slim and the team responsible for said product may have a difficult time obtaining the funds to create another fantastic experience.

My view is that, if a product I do not care for succeeds, the industry will attempt to cash in on that success and publishers will spend more money and time on products I do not care about rather than those that I might.

 

[Jokeropia]

The success of the Wii could very well result in a market flooded with software I have no interest in.

The success of any game you don't like could very well result in a market flooded with software you have no interest in. People who don't like GTA, FF, Halo etc. can complain about this just as much as you can.

 

[Xrenity]

Right. Nowhere is there any indication this person actually intends to buy a Wii. Simply that they would, like many other people for any given console, play it at a party/gathering with others. GROUNDBREAKING.

It's a start.

If many people know what a Wii is, you'll get 'free advertising'.
In TV series, you hear people talking about PlayStations and Xbox's, once in a while. Gamecube is skipped, time after time.

As if it doesn't exist.

 

[dark10x]

The success of any game you don't like could very well result in a market flooded with software you have no interest in. People who don't like GTA, FF, Halo etc. can complain about this just as much as you can.

Those are singular games, however, on platforms that can and did the kind of software I wanted. The Wii represents an entirely different direction and, by the nature of its weak hardware, will immediately place limitations on whatever may be created for it. As with the DS, I will certainly be able to enjoy the quality software released for the machine...but I will feel disappointed that it was created for the Wii as opposed to something else.

 

[MrSardonic]

You honestly believe that modern gaming has been reduced to a series of interactive films?

Did I say that? No. One poster claimed that there were 2 paths for the future of gaming and the only valid one was the path of "literature quality" storytelling, glorified interactive-movies etc

The success of the Wii could very well result in a market flooded with software I have no interest in.

Like 99% of it today? I swear that people on this board will bash software like Brain Training on a purely ideological level without even playing it...or playing it but ensuring that they look upon it like a dog shit a friend has told them they should try eating.

that games should be reduced to homework or whatever physical pleasure lies in swinging your arms around

and you expect to be taken seriously with this kind of reductionist statement? Seems that if someone doesn't nod their head in agreement with you then they get branded "fanboys", "nintards" (or whatever)...heaven forbid people might actually be interested in a new interface or experimenting with different forms of interactive software

The Lovely Bones, the book, can exist without having a negative impact on the release of higher quality novels.

Not so sure about this. Authors have been complaining for years now that "shit" books impact the sales, marketing and publishing deals for "good" books...not to mention that the biggest supermarkets in Europe will only stock a small selection of "bestsellers" and this makes the majority of books sales concentrate around a few "blockbuster" titles.

 

[Annoying Old Party Man]

This thread makes me sick in the stomach. The Wii is interesting and unproven. It's got Nintendo behind it, with all the + and - it goes with.

Jesus people, there is also grey besides black and white

 

[Jokeropia]

by the nature of its weak hardware, will immediately place limitations on whatever may be created for it.

If you're so worried about these things I wonder if console gaming is for you. Consoles will always be underpowered compared to updated gaming PCs.

 

[Red Blaster]

Have you considered that certain genres are pretty shitty on the PC?

 

[drohne]

i don't think there's any harm in people reading and enjoying trashy books. but when people who should know better start to mistake trashy books for literature -- and it's alarming how often it happens, at least in america -- then there's a distinction that needs to be protected. likewise it worries me that game enthusiasts and the enthusiast press are so warm to the idea of "videogames for people who hate videogames." some of these people are just nintendo fanboys who'll advocate anything nintendo does...but a lot of them aren't.

i think a lot of it does come down to self-loathing of a sort -- and i don't mean that as an insult. sporks is really into videogames and seems to take videogames seriously...but he also seems to think that videogames are stupid. i'm susceptible to it as well -- i'm always kind of flattered when one of my friends shows interest in a videogame. whereas when a friend whom i know to be a total illiterate talks to me about books, i just smile and equivocate and hope he changes the subject.

and then maybe there's just something oxymoronic about videogame snobbery. when gafers excoriate one anime and rhapsodize another, i just have to laugh. because it's all the same shit to me. an anime snob strikes me as a very funny thing. i'm comfortable with being a literature snob, but i don't know if i can earnestly be a videogame snob.

 

[Jokeropia]

Have you considered that certain genres are pretty shitty on the PC?

Such as? Fighting games and Action games? I suppose liking only (or primarily) genres that are shitty on the PC and at the same time being very concerned about top of the line specs is a pretty unfortunate combination.

 

[Campster]

and then maybe there's just something oxymoronic about videogame snobbery. when gafers excoriate one anime and rhapsodize another, i just have to laugh. because it's all the same shit to me. an anime snob strikes me as a very funny thing. i'm comfortable with being a literature snob, but i don't know if i can earnestly be a videogame snob.

More room for me then, I guess.

 

[dark10x]

If you're so worried about these things I wonder if console gaming is for you. Consoles will always be underpowered compared to updated gaming PCs.

PCs rarely deliver the level of polish I demand and tend to lack the type of software I most enjoy. The best consoles games deliver the complete package, and that is what I strive for. Also, it IS about the game, first and foremost. I'm also interested, however, in what more powerful hardware can bring to the table (not solely from the visual side of things either). I believe powerful hardware can elevate great games to new levels.

The Wii is last generation hardware featuring a control method I'm not interested in. Thus far, the demonstrations of Wii technology have left me cold as they all have severe limitations placed upon them that results in a more simplistic gaming experience.

I fear that the success of the Wii could rob me of experiences I'm currently anticipating.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Sony and MS are banking on their systems to be "trojan horses" for things like media, online services, etc. The Wii on the otherhand imo is a trojan horse for gaming..Much like a Harry Potter has gotten kids into reading, or how the Web has introduced millions to PC's. Nintendo's really thinks it can expand the market, what wrong with that?

Maybe if Joe blow buys the wii for Tennis, maybe he'll buy a madden or something else. Hell he might even pick up a 360/ps3 because the Wii no longer does it for him after a while. I say that's freagin great for this industry.

Also What has nintendo done that makes people think that suddenly "non-games" are going to be the only type of game available on the Wii? Is it the lack of real games on the DS? Is it the lack of real games announced for the Wii?

 

[dark10x]

Is it the lack of real games on the DS?

Yes, actually. I've had a great time with my DS, but the library really doesn't appeal to me. I've really tried to enjoy a number of highly rated games, but quickly realized that they aren't for me.

The actual Wii lineup doesn't help matters either. Nor does their handling of the Gamecube (a system I loved, but was lacking in software).

When combined with the weak hardware, I find it difficult to truly support their new direction. I'll certainly take part in the Wii experience, but I'm not excited about it at this point and I'd be disappointed if it were to have a negative effect on something I would like.

 

[DDayton]

How is a greater variety a bad thing?

As far as "videogames for folks who hate games" versus the same for music or books, I believe the difference is that there is a general consensus that books and music have a much broader spectrum than video games. Someone who "hates books" or "hates music" is rather stupid, as that implies hating so many different things it isn't funny. Video games are still in their early years, and the general consensus is that they are still much more niche than something like literature.

In other words... folks don't hate video games because they are video games, but because of the niche style/content that video games are generally perceived to have. Changing that style/content results in folks not hating them.

 

[Campster]

Also What has nintendo done that makes people think that suddenly "non-games" are going to be the only type of game available on the Wii? Is it the lack of real games on the DS? Is it the lack of real games announced for the Wii?

There's a lack of games for the DS?

 

[Doc Holliday]

There's a lack of games for the DS?

sarcasm

 

[drohne]

i agree that videogames need to break out of their adolescent subject matter, but surely this has nothing to do with nintendo's efforts -- their "non-games" are scrupulously purged of any subject matter, or even visual suggestiveness. look at the wii sports lego people! i'd prefer waluigi and petey piranha, if it came down to it.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

no -- i'm not proposing a world where all books are good. i only mean to say that good readers should and indeed do look down on something like the lovely bones. whether that "looking down" takes the form of scorn or condescension or indifference, there's an underlying recognition that alice sebold is not of the same species as w.g. sebald. why can't game enthusiasts do the same?

That's what we do about EA.

 

[Y2Kev]

drohne for prez of GAF.

He has my vote. I enjoyed that post.

Every book doesn't have to be Faulkner, but books for the mainstream don't suddenly become Hop on Pop. I think. Er...

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

i agree that videogames need to break out of their adolescent subject matter, but surely this has nothing to do with nintendo's efforts -- their "non-games" are scrupulously purged of any subject matter, or even visual suggestiveness. look at the wii sports lego people! i'd prefer waluigi and petey piranha, if it came down to it.

Okay, then what do you suggest the industry has to do to achieven this?

 

[Doc Holliday]

Hey that Tennis game was better that a lot games that cost a lot of money to make at e3. Dont compare it to Hop on Pop.

 

[drohne]

Okay, then what do you suggest the industry has to do to achieven this?

an industrywide revival of extremely difficult 2d arcade shooters.

dammit you can't expect positive solutions from a message board crank. i'm just here to criticize other people's solutions.

 

[dark10x]

Hey that Tennis game was better that a lot games that cost a lot of money to make at e3. Dont compare it to Hop on Pop.

Flicking your wrist every few seconds is awesome.

 

[Campster]

Okay, then what do you suggest the industry has to do to achieven this?

I will continue to vote that the democratization of design and development is the way to go. Once anyone with an idea can make a game as easily as they can currently make a movie, we'll be set.

But no one seems to really like that answer.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Flicking your wrist every few seconds is awesome.

Pressing a button a every few seconds is awesome

Did you play it?

 

[DDayton]

i agree that videogames need to break out of their adolescent subject matter, but surely this has nothing to do with nintendo's efforts -- their "non-games" are scrupulously purged of any subject matter, or even visual suggestiveness. look at the wii sports lego people! i'd prefer waluigi and petey piranha, if it came down to it.

Actually, couldn't that be the whole "style" thing itself? Going for a more accessible style?

(I'm still trying to figure out how "purged of any subject matter ... or ... visual suggestiveness" has any particle of truth to it. It rather sounds like bitter hyperbole towards a stylistic change. The "non" games folks so often speak of seem quite packed with subject matter and visual suggestiveness, just of a different sort than some folks seem to want.)

I will continue to vote that the democratization of design and development is the way to go. Once anyone with an idea can make a game as easily as they can currently make a movie, we'll be set.
But no one seems to really like that answer.

... in what magical world is anyone easily able to make a movie?

I'd think video games are currently easier to make than movies, in general.

 

[jarosh]

i'm just here to criticize other people's solutions.

post bookmarked

 

[kaching]

I will continue to vote that the democratization of design and development is the way to go. Once anyone with an idea can make a game as easily as they can currently make a movie, we'll be set.

That's already the case.

 

[Flo_Evans]

the problem with this theory is that there are already plenty of 'crossover' party games that people will pick up and play.

I have no problem with a diverse library of games that has something for everyone - its a good thing IMO. I can enjoy the latest summer blockbuster movie staring the latest rap star as much as I can a kurosawa film. I can read the da vinci code and realize while it does nothing to enlighten it passes the time at the beach.

my problem is not so much the exsistance of these 'games' is that they are the main focus of the wii. Now of course someone will chime in with 'zelda dude!' .... yeah the last zelda was disapointing to say the least. I have high hopes for the new one but going by this gen, one mediocre zelda game is not enough to satisfy me.

The controller that was supposed to be the ultimate imersive 4th wall smashing thingy, so far has disapointed me in what developers have done with it. Red steel looks like an absolute mess, wii sports games are all less interactive than what we currently have. Of course it is still early and maybe developers just don't have a handle on the controller yet. Maybe the new mario will usher in the controller like mario64 did the analog stick. But maybe, just maybe the whole thing is a bad idea?

 

[Doc Holliday]

my problem is not so much the exsistance of these 'games' is that they are the main focus of the wii. Now of course someone will chime in with 'zelda dude!' .... yeah the last zelda was disapointing to say the least. I have high hopes for the new one but going by this gen, one mediocre zelda game is not enough to satisfy me.

Can you prove that non-games will be the focus for the wii? Does the number of non-game titles greatly eclipse traditional games? Cause I could have sworn there were a hell a lot more traditional titles on display at e3 than non-games.

Nintendo will pull out the non-game casual propoganda for the mainstream press, and go hardcore for us geeks..ie Super smash brothers Brawl.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

**** this shit, seriously.

Brain Training = stimulates pre-frontal cortex

Halo, FF, MGS, Gran Turismo, GoW (both of them), Mario, Zelda, Pikmin, Mother 3 = ****ing thumb exercises

Earthbound = some veiled form of rape counseling

 

[chadums90]

He has my vote. I enjoyed that post.

Every book doesn't have to be Faulkner...

I'd kill myself if every book were a Faulkner...It'd take me a month to finish every damn book I read.

Also, you wouldn't appreciate the sheer genius of it if everything were like it. The everyday makes you really appreciate the classics. Maybe this could be applied to videogames?

 

[unifin]

why are "videogames for people who hate videogames" considered a good thing when "books for people who hate reading" or "music for people who hate music" are such obviously bad things?

Well, video games haven't had centuries of refinement to discover the true identity of the art, so....

 

[Orlics]

While we're on the topic of simpler games for non-gamers, could someone point me to the thread where the following article was discussed? I'm new here and I don't really know how to manipulate the search engine to find specific articles.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=17998

 

[Flo_Evans]

Can you prove that non-games will be the focus for the wii? Does the number of non-game titles greatly eclipse traditional games? Cause I could have sworn there were a hell a lot more traditional titles on display at e3 than non-games.

Nintendo will pull out the non-game casual propoganda for the mainstream press, and go hardcore for us geeks..ie Super smash brothers Brawl.

no I can't. I should of said 'concern'. non-games and other software is not my main gripe either, as I said there is room for that. Its the dumbing down of everything to be more accessible. Super smash brothers is not really a harcore fighting game to me either...

 

[mrklaw]

This thread makes me sick in the stomach. The Wii is interesting and unproven. It's got Nintendo behind it, with all the + and - it goes with.

Jesus people, there is also grey besides black and white

WTF? This is one of the most cogent threads in the last 6 months.

Sure there's some crap in there, but also some thought and discussion. Shock horror!

 

[ziran]

i think wii and ds will/are attracting some people who 'hate' videogames, but not as many as the 'haters' think or need to justify their opinions and general nintendo loathing.

i'd say the biggest audience nintendo has drawn in with their new strategy is the lapsed gamer. i.e. someone who already had a love/enjoyment of videogames on machines like the nes, with simple, easy to play, rewarding games.

as technology progressed every company, including nintendo (as they have said), fell into the trap of using more power, better graphics, more buttons, more sticks, etc, and by doing so alienated millions of people. games slowly lost what it was that made them fun for this audience.

a similar thing is happening again, to the audience sony created with playstation. as games are becoming more and more hardcore with better graphics, better physics, more realism, more immersion, more cinematic, more complicated narratives, etc, casual gamers are becoming bored.

check out kohler's e3 05 miyamoto interview at wired. miyamoto speaks like the great sage! understanding exactly what a videogame is and essentially says a situation exists today where you have the hardcore making games for the hardcore. nintendo is being so successful because they are offering an alternative which goes back to why videogames became popular in the first place. it's not complicated.

it's not brain training, nintendogs or wii tennis aren't videogames, it's they're the embodiment of what a videogame is (and was to the people who played smb, pac man, space invaders, etc, etc).

 

[EmCeeGramr]

propaganda.

Shut up fanboy

Spoiler

 

[Campster]

Well, video games haven't had centuries of refinement to discover the true identity of the art, so....

Well, games have.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

Through observing many things, I get the impression that if you give the hardcore fanbase of any medium too much power to dictate what goes on in it, you kill off the medium in due time.

 

[Campster]

Through observing many things, I get the impression that if you give the hardcore fanbase of any medium too much power to dictate what goes on in it, you kill off the medium in due time.

Ding ding!

Correct answer.

We are fast on our way to becoming the new comic books.

 

[Ashodin]

SHUT. UP.

U R NOT E FOR WII.

All the other people in this thread:

You need to seriously sit down and think about what Nintendo is doing and close the fanboy doors before doing so. It's not about Nintendo doing its own thing to totally sweep the market with a new idea - the reason they're so hot right now is because their ideas are reaching other people who aren't even gaming at all, like the UK Original Post says.

If you've been reading Nintendo's rhetoric, they've been telling you that not only will they fill the shoes of the hardcore and "traditional" (ie STUBBORN) gamer, they will bring a new way to play to the masses never seen before.

I'm sorry sp0rsk, but when you say that the Wii is not needed to make innovative ideas, apparently you haven't seen the recent crop of PS3 and 360 games - it's the same ideas, just bigger and higher rez. MGS4 (same ol same ol, just suped up), Lost Planet (Contra 3D done right), FFXIII (FF in TEH HIGH DEF WORLD). You can't honestly say that you can pick up a Wii controller and NOT feel like this is something totally different.

 

[meltpotato]

"I hate that catering to the lowest common denominator is the suppossed future of the industry."

i think the Wii looks fun, but i don't like that it is promoting the above strat.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

Face it people, we need shit like Brain Training, Wii Sports, Eyetoy, Talkman, Animal Crossing, The Sims, etc. The industry is at 'Star Trek: Enterprise' right now - we don't want to get cancelled in 4 seasons.

We need the lowest common denominator.