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[elostyle]

PCs rarely deliver the level of polish I demand and tend to lack the type of software I most enjoy.

Stopped reading there.

 

[Amir0x]

it's not brain training, nintendogs or wii tennis aren't videogames, it's they're the embodiment of what a videogame is (and was to the people who played smb, pac man, space invaders, etc, etc).

wait shitty virtual pets with touch screen capability, standardized tests with voice recognition and a ridiculously shallow tennis game is the EMBODIMENT OF WHAT A VIDEOGAME IS?

Man i thought I was playing things that was actually challenging when I played Space Invaders and Pac Man, not hilarious pieces of shit with no actual merit. But i mean, you and me come from a different world of 'videogames' apparently!

 

[EmCeeGramr]

the Wii is not needed to make innovative ideas, apparently you haven't seen the recent crop of PS3 and 360 games - it's the same ideas, just bigger and higher rez. MGS4 (same ol same ol, just suped up), Lost Planet (Contra 3D done right), FFXIII (FF in TEH HIGH DEF WORLD). You can't honestly say that you can pick up a Wii controller and NOT feel like this is something totally different.

You do know that sporsk likes nintendo right? Hes just saying that although the controller may help, you could very well apply the same "simple games for everyone" strategy to a traditional controller and it would work as well. The subject matter of nintendogs and braintraining probably owe more to their success than their interface, although the interface is a huge part no doubt. However I do think that the number of buttons and inputs on the dualshock could be intimidating, but the wiimote isnt perfect in this regard either.

edit: GREAT, AMIROX has come into the thread, everyone just back up now while he fulfills his daily post average.

 

[Y2Kev]

as technology progressed every company, including nintendo (as they have said), fell into the trap of using more power, better graphics, more buttons, more sticks, etc, and by doing so alienated millions of people. games slowly lost what it was that made them fun for this audience.

I agree that we need to grow the market, but this type of rhetoric bothers me. The market HAS been growing. There is no trap. The PS2...with its "more power, more buttons, more sticks" mentality has completely and totally transformed gaming in the eyes of the average person, following a tradition that started with playstation.

To me, "alienating" people that are afraid of "more sticks" doesn't seem to be stopping the industry from growing immensely. I don't know what the financials are now or anything, but I'd be surprised if it didn't grow even further on the PS3, 360, and Wii. What if Wii doesn't sell to casuals? Does that signal that non-gamers don't want to game for some reason other than a fear of complexity?

And I don't care about non-games in any way. I hate them and I feel robbed that I bought ANIMAL CROSSING FREAKING TWICE NOW, but as long as Nintendo continues to produce traditional games (and I believe they are), then I don't care.

 

[Amir0x]

I agree that we need to grow the market, but this type of rhetoric bothers me. The market HAS been growing. There is no trap. The PS2...with its "more power, more buttons, more sticks" mentality has completely and totally transformed gaming in the eyes of the average person, following a tradition that started with playstation.

To me, "alienating" people that are afraid of "more sticks" doesn't seem to be stopping the industry from growing immensely.

And I don't care about non-games in any way. I hate them and I feel robbed that I bought ANIMAL CROSSING FREAKING TWICE NOW, but as long as Nintendo continues to produce traditional games (and I believe they are), then I don't care.

I think this menality stems from focusing on the Japanese market, which HAS been slowing down and only recently has been revived by Nintendo's strategy of offering games for people who hate life on the DS. That's understandable, I suppose, although the trend of simply ignoring this growth catapulted by Sony and the PlayStation brand is worrying: it's revisionist history at its finest, and it goes to show what damage Nintendo's propaganda has done. It has stirred up their hardcore userbase, coming out of the shadows for the first time in over a decade with a system that is successful over a viable competitor, and they simply lose their critical thinking faculties.

And also you deserve the feeling of being robbed for falling for the Animal Crossing TWICE!

 

[BocoDragon]

So basically

GAMES GRANDMA CAN ENJOY = HARDCORE GAMERZ GET RAPED

Is that about right GAF?

 

[Amir0x]

there is no such thing as games grandma enjoys.

 

[Flo_Evans]

I like how nintendo fans dismiss franchises on other consoles as 'the same old thing' and yet are all hot for the latest mascot driven shallow fighting game, OMG finnaly a real super mario bros sequel!!, a new metroid, new zelda....

I mean hell I was happy as shit with new super mario bros and the new castlevania on the DS, but niether one of them benifited from the touchscreen or where amazingly inovative.

 

[Amir0x]

The way i see it, Flo, the second the so-called "same ol' shit" gets OLD, is the second I care what they think!

But the "same ol' shit" is as awesome as it ever was, with no remote change in awesome potential in the foreseeable future, so I win.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I agree that we need to grow the market, but this type of rhetoric bothers me. The market HAS been growing. There is no trap. The PS2...with its "more power, more buttons, more sticks" mentality has completely and totally transformed gaming in the eyes of the average person, following a tradition that started with playstation.

I think the success of the playstation had more to do with getting people who were always interested in gaming, but were too insecure as to not allow themselves to play game featuring cuddly dinosaurs, sword fighting elves, etc. It was the subject matter shift from mario and zelda to tomb raider and twisted metal that really escalated the playstation brand. That bieng said, there were/are still untapped demographics around, and I occassionally would run into this people when I worked in game retail who quite simply said "I used to play games, but now there are too many buttons".

 

[Y2Kev]

I think this menality stems from focusing on the Japanese market, which HAS been slowing down and only recently has been revived by Nintendo's strategy of offering games for people who hate life on the DS. That's understandable, I suppose, although the trend of simply ignoring this growth catapulted by Sony and the PlayStation brand is worrying: it's revisionist history at its finest, and it goes to show what damage Nintendo's propaganda has done. It has stirred up their hardcore userbase, coming out of the shadows for the first time in over a decade with a system that is successful over a viable competitor, and they simply lose their critical thinking faculties.

I agree with you in regards to the Japanese market. They are obviously bored with the stagnation or whatever because the brain training games have sold like 9 million copies. I'm quite a bit interested in knowing the information detailing how many games the average non-gamer buys after picking up a DS.

I lent my friend my copy of brain age and my DS with a crack in it (the crack vexed me Tell-Tale Heart style, so I had to buy a new one) and in the three days he's had it, he's enjoyed it. I don't know if he is going to keep playing, but I know he isn't going to buy more games.

And old people...heh. I know that my grandparents have no disposable income whatsoever and would not play video games even if there was The Golden Girls: The Game or Metamucil Training. They just don't have the cash.

And also you deserve the feeling of being robbed for falling for the Animal Crossing TWICE!

I pray every night that Matsuno may forgive me.

I think the success of the playstation had more to do with getting people who were always interested in gaming, but were too insecure as to not allow themselves to play game featuring cuddly dinosaurs, sword fighting elves, etc. It was the subject matter shift from mario and zelda to tomb raider and twisted metal that really escalated the playstation brand. That bieng said, there were/are still untapped demographics around, and I occassionally would run into this people when I worked in game retail who quite simply said "I used to play games, but now there are too many buttons".

Was there no Madden on the genesis? No racing games on the SNES? There have always been games that non-nerds can enjoy. Sony matured the gaming IPs, but nobody is afraid of being caught playing Mario. Nobody. The sales of NSMB prove that.

The gaming-phobia is more than a fundamental fear of buttons and complexity. I just don't believe it.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

there is no such thing as games grandma enjoys.

The japanese grandmas love the brain training, are you denying this?

 

[Amir0x]

oh i'm not denying there's some exceptions, as anything, but there exists no large untapped market of grandma gamers.

Grandma's aren't gamers because it doesn't interest them. Virtual pets, tests and waggling isn't going to suddenly make them interested. Game is a hobby, it's a toy, and it won't change because you change the interface for them or make it less intimidating (which, btw, wiimote only marginally makes it less intimidating... there's still a lot to process)

 

[BocoDragon]

The way i see it, Flo, the second the so-called "same ol' shit" gets OLD, is the second I care what they think!

But the "same ol' shit" is as awesome as it ever was, with no remote change in awesome potential in the foreseeable future, so I win.

Conservatives vs liberals.... even in gaming fandom....

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

I like how nintendo fans dismiss franchises on other consoles as 'the same old thing' and yet are all hot for the latest mascot driven shallow fighting game, OMG finnaly a real super mario bros sequel!!, a new metroid, new zelda....

I mean hell I was happy as shit with new super mario bros and the new castlevania on the DS, but niether one of them benifited from the touchscreen or where amazingly inovative.

Any smart Nintendo fanboy is not like this. An intelligent one enjoys both types of games. Also, this is a sad attempt at a covered troll. "Latest shallow character driven fighting game, eh? Whatever.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

oh i'm not denying there's some exceptions, as anything, but there exists no large untapped market of grandma gamers.

Grandma's aren't gamers because it doesn't interest them. Virtual pets, tests and waggling isn't going to suddenly make them interested. Game is a hobby, it's a toy, and it won't change because you change the interface for them or make it less intimidating (which, btw, wiimote only marginally makes it less intimidating... there's still a lot to process)

Do you think its the typical otaku/hardcore gamers who have been buying braintraining/nintendogs/englishtraining?

And I agree that the wiimote is only slightly less intimidating.

 

[Y2Kev]

Do you think its the typical otaku/hardcore gamers who have been buying braintraining/nintendogs/englishtraining?

In some cases. I bought Brain Age, Nintendogs, AND Animal Crossing (TWICE!!!). I won't buy another game of that type because they aren't for me, but I don't believe it is all selling to grannies.

I wouldn't be surprised if middle-aged salarymen, young girls, grannies, grampies, and otakus bought Brain Age though.

 

[Amir0x]

Conservatives vs liberals.... even in gaming fandom....

Hey, that's the whole point of games... if there's no change in fun, why stop?

Do you think its the typical otaku/hardcore gamers who have been buying braintraining/nintendogs/englishtraining?

And I agree that the wiimote is only slightly less intimidating.

Yes, I do think a large amount of the people who purchased Brain Training are typical hardcore/otaku gamers. But naturally, that wouldn't explain the over-the-top success. So there are plenty of other people that aren't grandmas who might be interested in that type of garbage software.

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

Why even call it garbage when obviously a lot of people enjoy using the software? The whole world ain't GAF, Ami. My dad likes Brain Age, as do my grandparents. I don't, but that doesn't mean that it's "garbage." It's just not your typical game, or a game at all. I respect that each of these pieces of software are QUALITY stuff, even though as a hardcore gamer I don't much out of it. It's no big deal, because other people do.

 

[Amir0x]

Why even call it garbage when obviously a lot of people enjoy using the software? The whole world ain't GAF, Ami. My dad likes Brain Age, as do my grandparents. I don't, but that doesn't mean that it's "garbage." It's just not your typical game, or a game at all. I respect that each of these pieces of software are QUALITY stuff, even though as a hardcore gamer I don't much out of it. It's no big deal, because other people do.

I call it garbage because that's what it is. If your parents enjoy it, more to them! I'm not hating on them, just the games.

 

[Y2Kev]

Perhaps your grandparents would be interested in doing my calculus homework? I definitely think THAT'S garbage.

 

[dark10x]

Stopped reading there.

Wait, what?

PC games do, in fact, tend to lack the same level of polish found in console titles. What is there to argue? I still enjoy them, but the experience is rarely perfect.

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

I call it garbage because that's what it is. If your parents enjoy it, more to them! I'm not hating on them, just the games.

*sigh*

You're not getting my point. You're telling me that you hate these games so much to the point where you think the actual software is not quality and well made? That it's NOT a respectable piece of software, either way you like it or not? Sounds like a ****ing conceited view to take.

 

[ziran]

wait shitty virtual pets with touch screen capability, standardized tests with voice recognition and a ridiculously shallow tennis game is the EMBODIMENT OF WHAT A VIDEOGAME IS?

Man i thought I was playing things that was actually challenging when I played Space Invaders and Pac Man, not hilarious pieces of shit with no actual merit. But i mean, you and me come from a different world of 'videogames' apparently!

you and i do have different tastes in videogames.

I agree that we need to grow the market, but this type of rhetoric bothers me. The market HAS been growing. There is no trap. The PS2...with its "more power, more buttons, more sticks" mentality has completely and totally transformed gaming in the eyes of the average person, following a tradition that started with playstation.

To me, "alienating" people that are afraid of "more sticks" doesn't seem to be stopping the industry from growing immensely.

And I don't care about non-games in any way. I hate them and I feel robbed that I bought ANIMAL CROSSING FREAKING TWICE NOW, but as long as Nintendo continues to produce traditional games (and I believe they are), then I don't care.

looking at the software sold franchise after franchise the world over has been declining over the last five years on every platform.


wii and ds are more about giving people who have or would enjoy a videogame something to play.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

In some cases. I bought Brain Age, Nintendogs, AND Animal Crossing (TWICE!!!). I won't buy another game of that type because they aren't for me, but I don't believe it is all selling to grannies.

I wouldn't be surprised if middle-aged salarymen, young girls, grannies, grampies, and otakus bought Brain Age though.

I also brought all those nongames in addition to electroplankton. And for me its very easy to understand why they appeal to the masses. They dont demand alot of time or commitment and are easy to learn due to their intuitive interface. You play these games a little each day and get on with your life, so its perfect for what I consider 'neutral' consumers who dont want to obsess over these things. Now for me, that doesnt work because games are my main hobby to fill the void of free time I have.

That doesnt make them pieces of shit that must be stopped because theyll "ruin the industry". I dont think Ive ever liked the what the industry has done and have satiated my hobby with the fringe stuff. In one era you had an overabundance of platforming liscenced crap and now we have an overabundance of liscenced "kill guy with gun" liscenced crap because thats what was successful. If these non games take over the medium it wont be a very different situation where for the most part Im gettinb by with the fringe games.

 

[CajoleJuice]

Lock this thread plz.

/thread

LOLZ

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

I do not understand my tag.

*reads past sp0rsk posts*

 

[Y2Kev]

looking at the software sold franchise after franchise the world over has been declining during the the last five years on every platform.

But who cares about franchise sales when there are new franchises and more software being sold than ever before? I think vgcharts lists 169 PS2 international million sellers and 133 PSone sellers. More units and more hardware is being moved.

So instead of 4 million, DQ sells 3.4 but a new franchise like God of War sells another million. FF's latest nontraditional entry in the franchise might only sell 2.4 instead of 2.8 million units in Japan, but instead something like Gears of War will sell 1+ million copies.

The wii and the DS do have their places. BELIEVE ME. I am getting a wii day one and I have FOUR (4!!) DS. I buy into the innovation and inventiveness of the DS and wii. IMO, however, that type of software is not for me.

Castlevania + mapscreen = omg yay. Metroid + touch screen controls = hot.

Brain age = no. Sorry.

That doesnt make them pieces of shit that must be stopped because theyll "ruin the industry".

This is not my opinion. I didn't call them pieces of shit. I don't like them and they certainly won't ruin my gaming industry. I even stated otherwise in my originating post: I DON'T CARE. Just keep making my original, traditional games and I don't care.

I don't like, however, the "WAH SAME OLD SAME OLD" or "trap of graphics" rhetoric.

 

[Amir0x]

*sigh*

You're not getting my point. You're telling me that you hate these games so much to the point where you think the actual software is not quality and well made? That it's NOT a respectable piece of software, either way you like it or not? Sounds like a ****ing conceited view to take.

It's conceited to recognize them for the poorly designed pieces of crap with no actual merit that they are?

Ok then!

see, that's the distinction - a lot of people enjoy what I don't, and that's not an attack on them. If I think something is crappy, or garbage, I'm still going to say it regardless of the fact that some people enjoy it.

you and i do have different tastes in videogames.

If you call what you have a "taste in videogames!"

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

FOUR (4!!) DS

dude why

see, that's the distinction - a lot of people enjoy what I don't, and that's not an attack on them. If I think something is crappy, or garbage, I'm still going to say it regardless of the fact that some people enjoy it.

Man, you're STILL not understanding me. Okay, answer me this and I'll be happy. Why do you think the games are designed shittily (is that a word)? You can't see the work that went into the game and you can't respect that they're quality pieces of software, no matter how you feel about your enjoyment of them? You know these games could be a ****ton worse. The voice recognition could be shitty, the scores you get in Brain Age/Big Brain Academy could be extremely random and not make sense, the tests could seem pointless and random, etc.

 

[elostyle]

Wait, what?

PC games do, in fact, tend to lack the same level of polish found in console titles. What is there to argue? I still enjoy them, but the experience is rarely perfect.

No, not really. There is a lot of trash but so is there on consoles. Companies like Blizzard and Valve put out stunningly polished product. You may be perceiving a lack of polish based on the wide variety of PC hardware out there potentially having an influence on a couple of suttle things.

 

[robo_robo]

I want more non-games like Big Brain Academy, I love that shit.

 

[Y2Kev]

dude why

I bought an original. Gave it to my friend, who gave it to his Mom to play Tetris. Got another. Then a DS lite. It got a little crack in it, so I bought a new one.

I kept trading things in...incidentally, every DS I have bought was on the day of a trade-in sale at gamestop. I've paid maybe 160 bucks for all four of them (original + 40 bucks) for the latest one. I paid a lot for the import DS lite, but it was worth it...I didn't include that in my totals.

I think I'm being very reasonable here. I haven't said I hated Nintendo or that they suck, but the "non-games" are not for me and that's just how it is going to be.

 

[dark10x]

No, not really. There is a lot of trash but so is there on consoles. Companies like Blizzard and Valve put out stunningly polished product. You may be perceiving a lack of polish based on the wide variety of PC hardware out there potentially having an influence on a couple of suttle things.

I'm talking about polish throughout. From the framerate to the menu transitions to the way everything flows together. HL2 is polished in some respects, but utterly broken in others AND proves my point that the PC platform can seriously disrupt initial experiences. HL2 was excellent, but my first play through was filled with stuttering and slowdown on top of very long load times. Eventually, it was improved...but the first experience is most important and I couldn't enjoy it as it should have been played. That's why I prefer console gaming.

Perhaps the most polished PC experience out of the box I've experienced in years was Doom 3. While the game itself wasn't necessarily everyone's cup of tea, it was polished to perfection on all fronts.

 

[Count Chocula]

"I hate computer games and would much rather go out and get some fresh air," she said. "But I have to say this was rather good. I could see me playing this at a party."

I dont understand what the big deal is. Theres plenty of games like this for traditional systems that use custom controllers. Guitar Hero is one. You dont have to build an entire system around an idea and cripple the traditional gaming aspects to achieve this.

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

I think I'm being very reasonable here. I haven't said I hated Nintendo or that they suck, but the "non-games" are not for me and that's just how it is going to be.

Oh no dude, I actually agree with you 100%, because you actually make sense and I feel the same way.

 

[Belfast]

Cool, so he might play it at the one or two parties he goes to each year and that's assuming anyone at that party has brought a Wii and that other people are willing to play it with him. Because he certainly hasn't indicated that he'd buy one himself, right?

Good job getting some sales, Nintendo!

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I dont understand what the big deal is. Theres plenty of games like this for traditional systems that use custom controllers. Guitar Hero is one. You dont have to build an entire system around an idea and cripple the traditional gaming aspects to achieve this.

You're assuming there is an.... ultimate objective standard when it comes to an interactive form of entertainment. Coming up with a standard for passive entertainment mediums isnt even a certainty. The dualshock and the wii nunchuck are both better at doing certain things for the game that are built around them. Niether is better or worse than the other, merely different.

 

[jarosh]

why can't we all just get along

 

[EmCeeGramr]

why can't we all just get along

BECAUSE BRAINTRAINING IS DESTROYING THE INDUSTRY

 

[Amir0x]

why can't we all just get along

wait a minute, those butterflies are just flying in place. It's an ILLUSION, just like the ILLUSION of our peaceful friendship!

 

[ziran]

But who cares about franchise sales when there are new franchises and more software being sold than ever before? I think vgcharts lists 169 PS2 international million sellers and 133 PSone sellers. More units and more hardware is being moved.

So instead of 4 million, DQ sells 3.4 but a new franchise like God of War sells another million. FF's latest nontraditional entry in the franchise might only sell 2.4 instead of 2.8 million units in Japan, but instead something like Gears of War will sell 1+ million copies.

ioi's better at this than i am, but, the situation the world over is one where major franchises are declining in sales and, while there are a few exceptions, overall, nothing is taking the slack. so a situation for developers exists where budgets are increasing astronomically while profits are decreasing.

in japan the situation is dire. the best that is happening are the examples you've given, small decline but relatively stable. however, the majority of other games and genres are dying. there are countless examples, just check the japanese sales threads.

 

[nfreakct]

I can only imagine the Wii launch threads after this.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Actually (here comes a mini rant) this whole games for people who hate games thing, to me anyway, is more of a backlash to over 20 years of derivation(did i use that word right). It happens in art all the time, movements come and they challenge what we think is good. Wether or not you like it, these things are necessary to move forward. If the next 20 years is nothing but what were doing now except with better graphics, animation, physics then what good is gaming? Now i know okay okay, this is a really narrow view. Its about creating new gameplay ideas. We dont really need wii to do that. We dont need a weird controller to have new and inventive gameplay.

However, I think we DO need a wacky controller to expand gaming. Put gaming into the hands of more and more creative people. There are games out there that people would like if they would just try them, but they just wont because of the current nature of gaming. Nintendo is doing us gamers a service by bowing out of the console arms race (god i think i read that in a pr somewhere im sorry) and taking a chance to get gaming out of nerdtown or manlymancity or kidopolis and into normal peopleville.

Nintendo is trying with games that arent about demons and sparda or world war 2. Nintendo, I would say, is trying to get back to the essence of video games. It isnt about replicating your favorite movie with some punching and kicking and shooting inbetween. Videogames at their core are just games. They are a person competing against something. The philosophy behind the wii and stuff like tennis (yes before you go BUT THERE ARE NORMAL GAMES TOO!!!) is that hey, we dont need the superfluous stuff, why dont we cut out the crap and let them have fun?

These games arent for us, were too hardcore, we digest games like a fat guy at a buffet and were never satisfied. We are essentially galactus. But hey, I'm going to buy it. If I have fun, great. If its short lived, eh, maybe next time right?

This might be the most intelligent post I've ever read on GAF.

I agree completely.

 

[Oblivion]

I can understand some concerns from the non-gaming brigade, but answer me this:

FFS, how many "non-games" were shown at E3 for the Wii, and how many are there for the DS?

People are taking these insecurities to new heights...

 

[Mr Furious]

why are "videogames for people who hate videogames" considered a good thing when "books for people who hate reading" or "music for people who hate music" are such obviously bad things?

Precisely because Nintendo did their market research and targeted non-video game players and most all casual gamers. That is the market they want to reach.

Companies do that sort of thing to increase their market penetration. They do that for a bigger customer base, more sales, and ultimately, more profits.

Nintendo have stated that they are content to be the "second console" in the house. This means they need to cater to casual gamers. The fact that non-gamers even liked it, means that Nintendo may end up increasing their market penetration and grow their customer base because new people are buying their console for parties and general amusement.

Nothing bad about that at all. For Nintendo, it verifies/validates that their strategies/research are correct in every way and could mean billions of dollars in extra value on their books in the years to come.

 

[dark10x]

I can understand some concerns from the non-gaming brigade, but answer me this:

FFS, how many "non-games" were shown at E3 for the Wii, and how many are there for the DS?

People are taking these insecurities to new heights...

Depends on what you consider a game...

Wii Tennis? Yeah, I suppose that's a game...but well, you know...

 

[Amir0x]

I can understand some concerns from the non-gaming brigade, but answer me this:

FFS, how many "non-games" were shown at E3 for the Wii, and how many are there for the DS?

People are taking these insecurities to new heights...

just fyi, my complaints are still centered around DS in this thread... if the types of software i'm talking about comes to Wii, then it'd be the same.

In the end i still only like a few things shown for Wii so far, but that's because of the way the products have been designed thus far not because they're not really games.

 

[Oblivion]

Depends on what you consider a game...

Wii Tennis? Yeah, I suppose that's a game...but well, you know...

Um..I don't know, let's narrow it down and say something like educational software or something.

Actually, better idea. List Wii games that you think are non-games and we'll go from there.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I think wii orchestra was the only "non-game" at e3, and that could very well change.