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"I hate videogames, but I have to say this was rather good"

Gran Turismo is essentially a non-game series that's sold tons for Sony, y'know. Nintendo is far from alone in all of this.

Not to mention that calling the Wii last generation in comparison to PS3 and XBox 360, at least at this point in time, is foolish IMO. Most of the extra power going into the other two systems is earmarked for HD optimization by many accounts.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Oblivion said:
Um..I don't know, let's narrow it down and say something like educational software or something.

Actually, better idea. List Wii games that you think are non-games and we'll go from there.
I guess it isn't so much about non-games as much as games made for non-gamers...

There were plenty of those at E3.
 

Amir0x

Banned
cartman414 said:
Gran Turismo is essentially a non-game series that's sold tons for Sony, y'know. Nintendo is far from alone in all of this.

What, no!

cartman414 said:
Not to mention that calling the Wii last generation in comparison to PS3 and XBox 360, at least at this point in time, is foolish IMO. Most of the extra power going into the other two systems is earmarked for HD optimization by many accounts.

there's nothing foolish about it. The facts are the facts.
 
Amir0x said:
What, no!



there's nothing foolish about it. The facts are the facts.

Not until we've seen some more concrete stuff, namely final dev-kit material, and see how it stacks up to the other two in its native maximum resolution of 480p. Last I heard, Nintendo was still finalizing the ATi hardware.
 

Amir0x

Banned
cartman414 said:
Not until we've seen some more concrete stuff, namely final dev-kit material, and see how it stacks up to the other two in its native maximum resolution of 480p. Last I heard, Nintendo was still finalizing the ATi hardware.

it's already not stacking up if it's at maximum res of 480p. :lol

But even then, it's not gonna compare to 360 and PS3... please, let these magical fantasies DIE
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
cartman414 said:
Gran Turismo is essentially a non-game series that's sold tons for Sony, y'know. Nintendo is far from alone in all of this.

How is Gran Turismo a non-game? You buy cars and you race cars and GT arguably does it better than anyone. Racing, as a whole, is no longer a game?

Not to mention that calling the Wii last generation in comparison to PS3 and XBox 360, at least at this point in time, is foolish IMO. Most of the extra power going into the other two systems is earmarked for HD optimization by many accounts.

I highly, highly doubt that.
 

Trurl

Banned
dark10x said:
I guess it isn't so much about non-games as much as games made for non-gamers...

There were plenty of those at E3.
And Maus could be described as a comic for people that don't read comics, I don't see how this is a bad thing at all.

Frankly I have always preferred simple, quick to get into games over the more cinematic games with complicated menus and controls. Give me Megaman and Wii Tennis.:D
 

Cosmozone

Member
ziran said:
ioi's better at this than i am, but, the situation the world over is one where major franchises are declining in sales and, while there are a few exceptions, overall, nothing is taking the slack. so a situation for developers exists where budgets are increasing astronomically while profits are decreasing.
Gamers needn't worry about declining sales, that's the industry's problem. There'll still be a good game once in a while for you to play. I believe there won't be any real 'crash' that makes it unprofitable to produce any decent game. The budget problem is comparable to the movie market. There's still enough room for less expensive films. And I think the same holds for the game market.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Trurl said:
And Maus could be described as a comic for people that don't read comics, I don't see how this is a bad thing at all.

Frankly my tastes have always preferenced simple, quick to get into games over the more cinematic games with complicated menus and controls. Give me Megaman and Wii Tennis.:D

no i'm pretty sure Maus cannot be described that way
 

inthegray

Member
Y2Kevbug11 said:
How is Nintendogs a non-game? You buy dogs and you train dogs and Nintendogs arguably does it better than anyone. Training dogs, as a whole, is no longer a game?

nintendogs is a non-game. so is your mom.


Amir0x said:
no i'm pretty sure Maus cannot be described that way

maus has an arguably different audience than your typical Archie or Punisher reader.
 

Trurl

Banned
Amir0x said:
no i'm pretty sure Maus cannot be described that way
Well, it's also good for people that do enjoy comic books but surely it has more mainstream appeal than the typical comic book genres.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Trurl said:
Well, it's also good for people that do enjoy comic books but surely it has more mainstream appeal than the typical comic book genres.

Maus is not 'simple', it's not for illiterate jackasses, it's not for the lowest common denominator, it's not for people who don't read comicbooks. It is, in fact, one of the highest quality comics for people who love comics EVER.
 
Amir0x said:
it's already not stacking up if it's at maximum res of 480p.

But even then, it's not gonna compare to 360 and PS3... please, let these magical fantasies DIE

HD is still a niche market though, so it won't make a difference to most people for quite some time. Besides, we won't know how it'll stack up in 480p until all 3 systems are out, so let's just wait on that, mmm'kay?

Y2Kevbug11 said:
How is Gran Turismo a non-game? You buy cars and you race cars and GT arguably does it better than anyone. Racing, as a whole, is no longer a game?

It does it to the point where it's more of a sim than a game though.

I highly, highly doubt that.

We shall see.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Trurl said:
And Maus could be described as a comic for people that don't read comics, I don't see how this is a bad thing at all.

Frankly I have always preferred simple, quick to get into games over the more cinematic games with complicated menus and controls. Give me Megaman and Wii Tennis.:D
Err, I don't think Megaman is suited for non-gamers. ;)

HD is still a niche market though, so it won't make a difference to most people for quite some time.
As an HD owner, do you think I actually care about whether or not the rest of the market is behind? :p
 
Belfast said:
Cool, so he might play it at the one or two parties he goes to each year and that's assuming anyone at that party has brought a Wii and that other people are willing to play it with him. Because he certainly hasn't indicated that he'd buy one himself, right?

Good job getting some sales, Nintendo!

Wii is a great idea for people worried that gradma can play too when she comes over to your house. That doesn't mean she's going to go out and buy one.

At the same time you've cheated yourself out of a system that will provide any semblance of deep gameplay.
 
dark10x said:
As an HD owner, do you think I actually care about whether or not the rest of the market is behind? :p

It will be an issue for the non-HD people who would have to foot an extra hundred or two at the very least for something they wouldn't be able to enjoy.
 

Belfast

Member
Count Chocula said:
Wii is a great idea for people worried that gradma can play too when she comes over to your house. That doesn't mean she's going to go out and buy one.

At the same time you've cheated yourself out of a system that will provide any semblance of deep gameplay.


Nintendo Wii: "For the unlikeliest of gaming scenarios."
 
drohne said:
if you'll close your mouth presently you might see the point of the comparison. i obviously don't mean to say that videogames are just like books or music...but it's worth asking yourself what the difference is in this case. it's worth answering my question.
One important difference is that books have been around for centuries, and music for millenia. Video games have been around for mere decades. By this point, if somebody has heard even a small fraction of the staggeringly huge range of music in existence and truly doesn't like music, it's unlikely there will be much else to change their minds. That said, there are always those moments that change one's mind on a long-held belief.

When it comes to video games, we clearly have only scratched the surface in terms of the kinds of experiences games can provide. It would be silly to assume anything otherwise, considering what a short period of time people have been making games. I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that as more types of games come into existence, more people will realize they could enjoy games. This isn't an issue of Nintendo making Wii Sports and then suddenly everybody who hates games runs out and buys the console. It's just one step among many others, such as soccer moms playing Bejeweled.

Those are things that really don't affect existing core gamers in a direct way, but it will have a big impact in coming years. The bigger the potential games market, the bigger the range of games can be supported and the better it will be for everybody. It's the same with any entertainment industry. For example, I don't watch many, if any, romantic comedies. However, the fact that the industry can see huge success for those films as well as for big budget action movies, dialogue-driven dramas, small experimental independent films, and so on is an indication that the movie industry has reached some kind of important milestone in terms of its mass audience that allows so many different types of films to be released.

We don't have that in games right now. We have very specific markets, and not very many of them, and publishers have very specific ideas as to what kind of games can and will sell. The markets are all very segmented, too. The casual market, the hardcore market, etc. Stuff like Live Arcade is helping remove those barriers, even if its' unlikely the Bejeweled soccer moms are buying Xbox 360s; the point is that genres and demographics are becoming more platform-agnostic. Wii will likely help in that regard as well. We've already seen DS do so, at least in Japan.

Just because you don't want to play "non-gamer games" doesn't mean they won't have a long-term positive effect on the industry. You don't have to play them, I won't be playing most of them, but that's not the point. Gaming has passed the point where it was any kind of exclusive club. Now it's just a really big club that can't decide if it's exclusive or not, and that confusion is helping to keep things inbred. The fact that gamers are offended or disgusted that games targeted at somebody other than themselves is mind-boggling. Do you go into record stores and sneer at all the music targeted at somebody other than yourself? Do you do the same with books, or movies? I mean, I'm sure some people do, but they're just going to have to get over it.
 
One more thing: if the Wii were so hardcore unfriendly, would SNK even bother making a version of Metal Slug Anthology for it? One that is said to take advantage of the Wii-mote, no less?
 
Chris Remo said:
The fact that gamers are offended or disgusted that games targeted at somebody other than themselves is mind-boggling. Do you go into record stores and sneer at all the music targeted at somebody other than yourself? Do you do the same with books, or movies? I mean, I'm sure some people do, but they're just going to have to get over it.

This is the very essense of what a fanboy is. I won't say anything further.
 

Belfast

Member
Chris Remo said:
One important difference is that books have been around for centuries, and music for millenia. Video games have been around for mere decades. By this point, if somebody has heard even a small fraction of the staggeringly huge range of music in existence and truly doesn't like music, it's unlikely there will be much else to change their minds. That said, there are always those moments that change one's mind on a long-held belief.

When it comes to video games, we clearly have only scratched the surface in terms of the kinds of experiences games can provide. It would be silly to assume anything otherwise, considering what a short period of time people have been making games. I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that as more types of games come into existence, more people will realize they could enjoy games. This isn't an issue of Nintendo making Wii Sports and then suddenly everybody who hates games runs out and buys the console. It's just one step among many others, such as soccer moms playing Bejeweled.

Those are things that really don't affect existing core gamers in a direct way, but it will have a big impact in coming years. The bigger the potential games market, the bigger the range of games can be supported and the better it will be for everybody. It's the same with any entertainment industry. For example, I don't watch many, if any, romantic comedies. However, the fact that the industry can see huge success for those films as well as for big budget action movies, dialogue-driven dramas, small experimental independent films, and so on is an indication that the movie industry has reached some kind of important milestone in terms of its mass audience that allows so many different types of films to be released.

We don't have that in games right now. We have very specific markets, and not very many of them, and publishers have very specific ideas as to what kind of games can and will sell. The markets are all very segmented, too. The casual market, the hardcore market, etc. Stuff like Live Arcade is helping remove those barriers, even if its' unlikely the Bejeweled soccer moms are buying Xbox 360s; the point is that genres and demographics are becoming more platform-agnostic. Wii will likely help in that regard as well. We've already seen DS do so, at least in Japan.

Just because you don't want to play "non-gamer games" doesn't mean they won't have a long-term positive effect on the industry. You don't have to play them, I won't be playing most of them, but that's not the point. Gaming has passed the point where it was any kind of exclusive club. Now it's just a really big club that can't decide if it's exclusive or not, and that confusion is helping to keep things inbred. The fact that gamers are offended or disgusted that games targeted at somebody other than themselves is mind-boggling. Do you go into record stores and sneer at all the music targeted at somebody other than yourself? Do you do the same with books, or movies? I mean, I'm sure some people do, but they're just going to have to get over it.


Unfortunately, we aren't considering the technology curve in this kind of argument. Video games are a computer technology and that field has been the catalyst in fast-forwarding general tech. Generational turn-over for video games are around 5-8 years at most, far shorter than those for books or art or music. What I'm saying is that I don't buy the argument that video games haven't had time to develop, because it has and it's done so at a much faster rate than other media. We're still far from seeing everything, but they've long since reached a level of competence where piddling attempts to "transform the industry" are going to be met with fair resistance.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
cartman414 said:
It will be an issue for the non-HD people who would have to foot an extra hundred or two at the very least for something they wouldn't be able to enjoy.
Didn't I already address that? I couldn't care less about those people. It's a freaking entertainment device. Hardly necessary for survival. I'm not going to lower my own standards for those people.
 
dark10x said:
Didn't I already address that? I couldn't care less about those people. It's a freaking entertainment device. Hardly necessary for survival. I'm not going to lower my own standards for those people.

Even at the potential expense of the gaming industry as a whole? Be my guest.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
cartman414 said:
Even at the potential expense of the gaming industry as a whole? Be my guest.
Well, yeah...especially when I don't believe it will destroy the industry.
 
dark10x said:
Well, yeah...especially when I don't believe it will destroy the industry.

No, but it will hurt it.

Now don't get me wrong, I LIKE HD, but I'm personally waiting a for a few more years for more actual HD content, not to mention higher quality HD sets for less. Undoubtedly there are others who feel the same way I do.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
cartman414 said:
No, but it will hurt it.

Now don't get me wrong, I LIKE HD, but I'm personally waiting a for a few more years for more actual HD content, not to mention higher quality HD sets for less. Undoubtedly there are others who feel the same way I do.
If it hurts a bit, so be it. How exactly do you think it WILL hurt it, though? Explain.

I'm not settling for less. I'm willing to pay more in order to experience the best.
 

Flynn

Member
drohne said:
why are "videogames for people who hate videogames" considered a good thing when "books for people who hate reading" or "music for people who hate music" are such obviously bad things?

Because there are books and music to serve every type of person. Right now most games serve the same sliver of the male demographic that comic books used to.
 
dark10x said:
If it hurts a bit, so be it. How exactly do you think it WILL hurt it, though? Explain.

Simple. A premium in price related to a feature that a lot of people won't be able to take advantage of for a while. You do the math.
 
Amir0x said:
there is no such thing as games grandma enjoys.
20060601grandmabplays.jpg
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
cartman414 said:
Simple. A premium in price related to a feature that a lot of people won't be able to take advantage of for a while. You do the math.
So you're talking about Blu-ray included in the PS3? First of all, I'm talking about HD gaming...not movies. Secondly, XBOX360 offers HD gaming as well. I demand HD resolutions out of my game consoles and feel that resolution alone will not damage the industry. I'm not willing to deal with 480p any longer just to have a machine that costs $200 instead of $400 or $600.

I'm certainly not going to complain about the inclusion of BR, though.
 

drohne

hyperbolically metafictive
i'm not arguing that wii tennis and brain training are "bad for the industry" and should be extirpated. i'm arguing that they're total pap, and that more of us ought to say so.

people will often conflate what nintendo are doing -- rendering games down to some ideal level of accessibility -- and any number of more romantic things which they are not doing: broadening the subject matter of games, challenging received notions of what games are, producing artistic provocations as if they were french symbolist poets and not the world's safest videogame makers. surely brain training has brought games to new audiences, but in no sense other than the purely mercantile is it like maus in comparison to the superhero comics that most games admittedly are. it's like family circus or cathy in comparison to superhero comics.
 

karasu

Member
Just because you don't want to play "non-gamer games" doesn't mean they won't have a long-term positive effect on the industry. You don't have to play them, I won't be playing most of them, but that's not the point. Gaming has passed the point where it was any kind of exclusive club. Now it's just a really big club that can't decide if it's exclusive or not, and that confusion is helping to keep things inbred. The fact that gamers are offended or disgusted that games targeted at somebody other than themselves is mind-boggling. Do you go into record stores and sneer at all the music targeted at somebody other than yourself? Do you do the same with books, or movies? I mean, I'm sure some people do, but they're just going to have to get over it.

Why is it mindboggling? I don't understand that. drohne's point was right on the money, differences in influence and longevity aside. What if non-games are a huge hit? If they are the market will be flooded with them, so much so that real games could become few and far between. It's happened before in a million other industries/ genres/mediums/movements/whatever. Once suits see that there's a ton of money to be made, they will rape a thing.

It's so common. Once a developer, or director, or band, or author starts trying to please the millions and millions of people outside of it's true audience, especially by simplifying/dumbing down their work, the shit tends to hit the fan. This whole 'games for non gamers' deal is a huge step backwards. How could it possibly be good for gaming? Money? Even more casuals driving the direction of gaming? What?
 

chadums90

Member
So the market gets flooded with them...then what happens? The laws of economics kick in, the best ones make money, the worst ones don't...Companies still sell games like MGS to people like you and me.

I don't get how the laws of supply and demand all of a sudden don't apply to video games.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
chadums90 said:
So the market gets flooded with them...then what happens? The laws of economics kick in, the best ones make money, the worst ones don't...Companies still sell games like MGS to people like you and me.

I don't get how the laws of supply and demand all of a sudden don't apply to video games.

There's the possibility that the demand for something like Brain Training could outstrip demand for something like MGS, which are obviously quite disparate in their production budgets. Where does demand take us in that instance? To the axing of MGS?

I don't necessarily want supply and demand to rule over creative industries. It stifles creativity. Imagine if the demand for literature just disappeared and everybody wanted Da Vinci Code-s pumped out over and over.
 
This thread and others prove it once and for all: Sony fans have jumped the shark. They are officially worse than N-Bots. Not only are they dogmatic, but they push their dogmatism with such vitriolic zeal that, frankly, I'm getting a bit scared here.

I picture some of you guys with squares, circles, Xs and triangles carved into your foreheads.
 

karasu

Member
chadums90 said:
So the market gets flooded with them...then what happens? The laws of economics kick in, the best ones make money, the worst ones don't...Companies still sell games like MGS to people like you and me.

I don't get how the laws of supply and demand all of a sudden don't apply to video games.


The "best ones" could potentially becomes the ones that most please nongamers! Eff the laws of supply and demand. Mindless pandering to wallets and pocketbooks isn't good for movies, isn't good for novels, and it won't be good for gaming. Heck, even Metal Gear. The dumbest thing Kojima did with that series was create Radien to appeal to a bunch of girls that never played Metal Gear in the first place!
 

chadums90

Member
If the demand outstrips it then they hire more programmers/designers/etc for those types of games, and keep the same size staffs for the old games. Growth in sales will grow the companies. Or better yet - they'll get more efficient at making the BT's, so they'll make them quicker, with lower budgets, using less people. That could actually FREE time/people/money for the standard fare.

I'll rephrase: Why is the videogame business different from other businesses?
 
karasu said:
Why is it mindboggling? I don't understand that. drohne's point was right on the money, differences in influence and longevity aside. What if non-games are a huge hit? If they are the market will be flooded with them, so much so that real games could become few and far between. It's happened before in a million other industries/ genres/mediums/movements/whatever. Once suits see that there's a ton of money to be made, they will rape a thing.

It's so common. Once a developer, or director, or band, or author starts trying to please the millions and millions of people outside of it's true audience, especially by simplifying/dumbing down their work, the shit tends to hit the fan. This whole 'games for non gamers' deal is a huge step backwards. How could it possibly be good for gaming? Money? Even more casuals driving the direction of gaming? What?
What? Just like all those meteor and natural disaster movies ruined it for all the other types of movies? Just like the success of country music means we no longer see rock or rap or jazz or gospel or whatever? Just like the success of Harry Potter books has meant we no longer see non-fantasy literature or nonfiction books? Just like the already huge success of casual games on the PC and elsewhere has had any negative impact at all on the games we've already been playing?

This "casual games will ruin everything" argument is a total fallacy, it's complete bullshit and I don't know how anybody can possibly put any stock in it.
 
Chris Remo said:
What? Just like all those meteor and natural disaster movies ruined it for all the other types of movies? Just like the success of country music means we no longer see rock or rap or jazz or gospel or whatever? Just like the success of Harry Potter books has meant we no longer see non-fantasy literature or nonfiction books? Just like the already huge success of casual games on the PC and elsewhere has had any negative impact at all on the games we've already been playing?

This "casual games will ruin everything" argument is a total fallacy, it's complete bullshit and I don't know how anybody can possibly put any stock in it.

Because it serves their master. You seem like a reasonable guy, but you're arguing with a wall.
 
Y2Kevbug11 said:
There's the possibility that the demand for something like Brain Training could outstrip demand for something like MGS, which are obviously quite disparate in their production budgets. Where does demand take us in that instance? To the axing of MGS?

I don't necessarily want supply and demand to rule over creative industries. It stifles creativity. Imagine if the demand for literature just disappeared and everybody wanted Da Vinci Code-s pumped out over and over.
What about when the demand for MGS outstrips the demand for other games? Everything that sells less than MGS is gone? I never noticed.

Your literary example proves what's wrong with your argument. The huge, enormous, gigantic demand for The Da Vinci Code HAS NOT made other types of literature disappear. How on Earth could you possibly assume this hypothetical situation, which as far as I can tell never occurs in any industry, will suddenly happen to games?
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Chris Remo said:
This "casual games will ruin everything" argument is a total fallacy, it's complete bullshit and I don't know how anybody can possibly put any stock in it.

thats pretty interesting, I can recall several occasions where nintendo fans have loathed the casual PS2 madden and GTA gamers and how they are ruining thier beloved hobby. People hate all the time on EA and thier liscened shit that caters to the casual market. Why is it better when nintnedo does it?
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Chris Remo said:
What about when the demand for MGS outstrips the demand for other games? Everything that sells less than MGS is gone? I never noticed.

Your literary example proves what's wrong with your argument. The huge, enormous, gigantic demand for The Da Vinci Code HAS NOT made other types of literature disappear. How on Earth could you possibly assume this hypothetical situation, which as far as I can tell never occurs in any industry, will suddenly happen to games?

Okay, there's a difference. MGS can't kill off the other things because of the nature of its production. It's a gigantic blockbuster and your result betrays my scenario. If Brain Training can sell fifty million copies and cost 100,000 to make, but MGS sells 2 million copies and costs 20 million to make, MGS is getting axed. If Brain Age sells 200,000 copies (like, say it has now in the US) and costs 100,000 to make, and MGS sells 3 million copies and costs 20 million to make, Brain Age is not going to get axed. I would never argue that a small, profitable project would be axed in favor of larger ones. Larger ones, however, due to time and financial costs, could be axed in favor of simpler projects. Again, this was just a scenario I came up with. I was not arguing likelyhoods or anything.

Like I said before (and I will point to again), I don't give a shit about non-games. I don't think MGS will be axed in favor of non-games. I was simply offering a scenario that countered the point made.

And the book example doesn't match what I said anyway. Demand for literature has never dried up. Due to schools and such, I'd imagine the demand for Homer was even greater than the demand for Brown last year. Just saying, what if it did?

How on Earth could you possibly assume this hypothetical situation, which as far as I can tell never occurs in any industry, will suddenly happen to games?

Well, I would just look at the movie industry where a lot of artistic films don't do well or are never even made because of the pap hollywood churns out now. That's why you can't let creative industries be driven by supply and demand.
 

chadums90

Member
Chris Remo said:
What about when the demand for MGS outstrips the demand for other games? Everything that sells less than MGS is gone? I never noticed.

Your literary example proves what's wrong with your argument. The huge, enormous, gigantic demand for The Da Vinci Code HAS NOT made other types of literature disappear. How on Earth could you possibly assume this hypothetical situation, which as far as I can tell never occurs in any industry, will suddenly happen to games?

That's my point, Chris, it seems like everyone assumes that there is something fundamentally different about video games as a business and/or as an art form. Bad, pandering literature exists just as good, quality stuff exists. As said earlier, a Faulkner can still sell while something like the Da Vinci Code is around. Not to mention that the Da Vinci Code might push some people to read more stuff like Faulkner.

Also, Y2K, what about efficiency? What about the gaming company making more profits? The company growing/becoming more efficient still leaves the same or more room for "regular" games.
 

karasu

Member
Chris Remo said:
What? Just like all those meteor and natural disaster movies ruined it for all the other types of movies?

:lol Do you have any idea how many movies weren't made because they weren't disasterous enough? Or how many directors have been told over and over again to add more action and explosions to their films to make them an easier sell? How many directors have been forced to use a 'star', or how many producers have pushed directors into following whatever the current trend of the season is? Everything has an effect man. When disaster movies and meteor crashes were making a ton of money, studios released tons of them. You think it's a coincedence that we only get a certain type of movie at a certain time of year? Most mainstream films are terrible, mass production of once popular ideas is the reason for that. If one superhero movie is a hit, we will get a million more.
 
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