Ar¢tos
Member
Still don't see a reason for not giving the players options. Start game in performance mode, be stuck in performance mode for that save, with the scaled down graphics and AI etc.
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[IGNxGamer] Starfield: Why 30fps Might Make Sense on Console
- Thread starter Lunatic_Gamer
- Start date
- News Analysis
killatopak
Member
It already does.
The problem with this engine is the inefficient amount of draw calls it has on every object. It bogs down the CPU so much leading to lower framerate.
It absolutely could be better if they redesigned their engine but everything is a bandaid workaround.
The engine was amazing back in 2002 but instead of optimizing it, the problems it had tracing back to Gamebryo and Netimmerse before it, still persists.
You don't see people complaining about Rockstar still using RAGE.
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MidGenRefresh
*Refreshes biennially
You honestly can’t be serious right now.
Games of Today
Member
We need NX Gamer in here!
Stafford
Member
The moment Todd basically said graphics > fps in a older interview, I knew what to expect. I've been playing RDR2 a lot lately, that has to be the smoothest 30fps game I've ever played, when I rotate the camera I don't see that horrible judder mess some other 30fps games have.
DF said Starfield will have per object motion blur, this is new for BGS and they sounded pretty excited about it. Proper motion blur can make a world of difference.
DF said Starfield will have per object motion blur, this is new for BGS and they sounded pretty excited about it. Proper motion blur can make a world of difference.
Ar¢tos
Member
Why not?
The same publisher had no issues in releasing a game with basically no AI (Redfall), and it would always be the player choice.
vaibhavpisal
Member
NPCs are simulated. That how they have wide variety of reactions to your actions.
It can range from doing their daily chores to doing all out civil war.
Try doing some more involved quests and see the world change in fascinating ways.
I just finished Skyrim playthrough. No other game has NPCs like this.
MarkMe2525
Member
It's no surprise you don't see the reason, neither you nor I are privy to what aspects of the game cause the frame rate issues. It could be the ability to have 100 ships on screen at once. We could have psychic powers that allow you to move every dynamic object across the screen at once.
These are just examples but it's to show that there are game design decisions that effect performance. These just can't be toggled like a graphical embellishment or internal resolution. So again, the reason there is not a "performance" mode very well could be down to a design decision, and not one of us have played the game to be able to speak to it.
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DaGwaphics
Member
Agreed. People are just being disingenuously obtuse for obvious reasons.
In the few passing shots we see of the major city centers, the NPC density seems quite high and with the way Bethesda does these it shouldn't be a surprise that they are pushing things. Plus the graphics must be working the GPU quite hard with the big upscale.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
The fact that this is even a controversy makes me lose faith in gaf. This is being turned into some kind of console war debate as if the main reason Sony's games have 60 fps isnt because they are cross gen games built around shitty jaguar CPUs. Way easier to scale up. The moment actual next gen games as ambitious as Starfield come out, things are going to be very different.
We have seen what the PS5 has to do to get 60 fps in next gen only games. Fucking 600p in Star Wars. Is that what you all want? 600p? Resolutions lower than MGS4 in 2008? WTF are we doing here?
Or do we want 1440p 60 fps games like Demon Souls which was literally running the same PS3 engine underneath. So we want PS3 era gameplay and systems from our PS5 games? What about Ratchet? If all ND, SSM, Sucker Punch and GG do is release Ratchet quality games with the most basic fucking combat and gameplay systems? Are we going to be ok with that or do we want ND to go out and completely overhaul TLOU2's gameplay systems? Everyone here will have an anyreusm if TLOU3 looks and plays exactly like TLOU Part 1 at 60 fps.
Even if this is an engine issue and we see after it launches on PC that it is only maxing out one of the 16 CPU threads, UE5 games have the same exact issue. Games are meant to execute instructions sequentially. Its partly why the cell fucking failed.
We all fucking hate the Series S. No one here wouldve wanted 4 tflops graphics at 2x the framerate on the xsx. We should be praising devs for not compromising their vision and if you want 60 fps, PCs are that way. I bought a 3080 because i wanted to play all these games at 60 fps. Yes it was expensive, but i chose not to subscribe to only fans, pay millionare youtubers donations, buy $1000 iphones or eat avacado toast for breakfast every morning like all these fucking gen z and milleninals who complain about PC gaming being unaffordable.
We have seen what the PS5 has to do to get 60 fps in next gen only games. Fucking 600p in Star Wars. Is that what you all want? 600p? Resolutions lower than MGS4 in 2008? WTF are we doing here?
Or do we want 1440p 60 fps games like Demon Souls which was literally running the same PS3 engine underneath. So we want PS3 era gameplay and systems from our PS5 games? What about Ratchet? If all ND, SSM, Sucker Punch and GG do is release Ratchet quality games with the most basic fucking combat and gameplay systems? Are we going to be ok with that or do we want ND to go out and completely overhaul TLOU2's gameplay systems? Everyone here will have an anyreusm if TLOU3 looks and plays exactly like TLOU Part 1 at 60 fps.
Even if this is an engine issue and we see after it launches on PC that it is only maxing out one of the 16 CPU threads, UE5 games have the same exact issue. Games are meant to execute instructions sequentially. Its partly why the cell fucking failed.
We all fucking hate the Series S. No one here wouldve wanted 4 tflops graphics at 2x the framerate on the xsx. We should be praising devs for not compromising their vision and if you want 60 fps, PCs are that way. I bought a 3080 because i wanted to play all these games at 60 fps. Yes it was expensive, but i chose not to subscribe to only fans, pay millionare youtubers donations, buy $1000 iphones or eat avacado toast for breakfast every morning like all these fucking gen z and milleninals who complain about PC gaming being unaffordable.
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
They need headroom, because the CPU usage is not static and depends on what the player is doing in the game world and the simulations occurring at the time. Sure they could uncap it, but it would be all over the place. I could see a possible VRR mode however.
GymWolf
Member
I don't care neither in this case because i have a beefy pc, it was just a general opinionI had typed out a reply about an option for uncapped being the best of both worlds but then I realised why the fuck do I even care about the Xbox version?
JimboJones
Member
That is just the way developers operate on consoles, if you want to bypass "creative vision" generally the only option is to go PC.
It will be interesting to see how it runs on a range of PC CPU's though.
Torrent of Pork
Banned
While I'm fine the frame rate cap, I will support the argument that console games should have the same graphics options that PC gets. Have the basic presets, but allow the player to fuck with them if they want. If you want a fluctuating mess of a frame rate you should be able to do that, it's on you.
That being said...
That being said...
killatopak
Member
It‘s just scheduled tasks. Most of them aren’t even unique task in Skyrim as it’s just split to townsfolk and guards. Plenty of games have it like RDR and in that game, it extends to even unique animal interactions. Friggin Majora’s Mask and Stardew Valley does this. It’s nothing new yes but it has become more complex in recent releases as better hardware comes along.
That’s also one of the issues in the engine. Everything from scheduled task, to sneak detection ai and combat ai are scripted and run on a single core. You can check this out by using Papyrus if you’re into modding their games and wondering why the fuck did your game crash. It‘s why you don’t see so many AIs in one place like say the city in Witcher 3. They’re simply waiting for that single core which results in lower frame rates.
vaibhavpisal
Member
I am talking about "No one escapes sidhna mines" type of quest. After freeing Madanach, a civil war ensues in the city. Thats definitely not a normal behaviour that I see in other games.
After killing all the guards, Madanach escapes the city and goes all the way to it's hideout half way across the map. I followed him all the way, after getting fascinated by what happened in front of me.
He gets into a fight at hideout, captures it and makes it his own.
Definitely not a normal behaviour. Not seen in any other games either.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
See that framerate? You can't go there.
killatopak
Member
Check out Rimworld. You AI town can complete entire questlines for you without intervention as long as you set them up properly. Crusader Kings do this as well. Play Mongolians or Muslims and watch how they take over Europe or Rome on their own if you make your duchies and kingdoms independent.
Also, while Madanach is scripted to go there. He has no affect on whether the hideout will be friendly or not. As long as you chose to support the Forsworn in the jail, they are still friendly. The AI script in their hideout must not have refreshed as they’re supposed to turn friendly as soon as you support Madanach. Other forsworn are still hostile just not the ones in the hideout.
Whether you kill Madanach before he even reaches the hideout, help the guards kill him outside the jail or he gets killed by other forsworn/aggressive AI on the way to their hideout is irrelevant.
He is simply scripted to run there. Though that in itself is inconsequential as his importance stops as soon as he leaves the jail.
vaibhavpisal
Member
An rpg with this sort of visuals and NPCs doing this stuff would be more apt comparison.
Feels great when you see this unfolding in front of you.
killatopak
Member
That’s fair. That’s why I’m hyped for the game.
I’m contesting that it hasn’t been done before. Bethesda games isn’t great at anything they do. It’s the combination of all their systems that make it great. They’re unique in that aspect and why so many people love their games.
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Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
I love how all the technical sites that everyone holds up as gospel when their platform has a 1 frame advantage are now being dismissed when they try to explain why this game isn't 60 on consoles. You can't have it both ways.
Face reality, 30 fps is the future for these consoles.
Face reality, 30 fps is the future for these consoles.
1292p and 30 fps is definitely now NEXT-GEN
fucking pathetic green rat... waiting and sucking up to corporation ..
Same shills called a PS5 an 8.9 tflop console overclocked after 12.2 tflop Xbo Ser X reveal.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I don't think anyone is dismissing the site, are they? Just the fact that 60 will always be smoother than 30, and that they want performance mode options.
MidGenRefresh
*Refreshes biennially
Amazing stuff.
Senua
Member
If you're an adult then you got some shit to work on my brother
I don't bro, I been watching the nonsense posts here before the arrival of PS5/Series X.
dotnotbot
Member
MidGenRefresh
*Refreshes biennially
Not sure who he is but I’m sure he’s boiling right now!!!
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I think you've misunderstood. A game hitting 60 when you look at the sky means jack shit if its hovering between 30 and 60 all the time otherwise. It will be constantly dipping in and out of the VRR range, the response and judder would be ridiculous. Also if the unlocked frame rate makes the frame times unstable, no amount of VRR will be able to "fix" it either.
If they're using a 30 lock for stability, they probably know exactly how much headroom they might have any any given time to come to that decision.
They might work on it post-launch to have a separate 60 FPS mod with cuts to reach it, but at this point just because it reaches 60 at some points, it doesn't mean its gonna be a viable mode at launch.
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MidGenRefresh
*Refreshes biennially
Well, Square Enix made a game just for you. You need to check out the new Final Fantasy my man.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I mean, it doesn't detract that it's a very good game, going by reviews and impressions.
MidGenRefresh
*Refreshes biennially
It's not even 90 on Meta and if I've learned one thing from critics posting on NeoGAF, it means that the game is just okay / Gamepass material.
Maybe if they focused all they attention on a single mode it would reach that magical barrier of 90. Maybe. I guess we'll never know.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Oh come on. You see the slacktivists docking it hard because of the "evil white people." Just stop, you are being silly now. None of them, and I mean NONE of them mention anything about modes.
They even say and I quote, "would be one of the best games of all time... but white people."
Go visit the review thread and stop acting like this thread is the reason that a great game is supposedly not great, even though it has great scores till minus the bullshit outliers and their retard idPol.
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Salty Popsicle
Banned
MidGenRefresh
*Refreshes biennially
Relax, I'm just fucking with you. It's just funny that first we have outrage that Starfield won't offer 60FPS mode, no matter how shit it would be and now we have outrage that FF offers an absolute mess of a 60FPS mode.
I'm sure FF is a great game, I only played FF VII and FF XV for a couple of hours total so I'm not an expert.
I'm aware of the fake outrage of fake Frappuccino infused California based pseudo journalists. That's funny as hell if you ask me.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
*backs away from the ledge*
I wasn't outraged by Starfield, I get the reason, I do. But with that said, I also understand why people who have been marketed to for 3+ years with 60fps/120fps options day in and day out, down to execs on twitter pushing it, would also be upset for a lack of option.
Personally, I am going with PC for Bethesda games as I always do. It's the only sound choice if one has the means to do so.
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Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
But they are explaining why a performance mode is likely not viable for this particular game.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
We will all find out when it releases on the PC and tests are done.
MidGenRefresh
*Refreshes biennially
In all honesty playing Bethesda game on a console sounds like torture. Maybe Starfield will be different. Most likely not.
Most people here act like Series X/PS5 is their first console generation. They bought into eating monsters for breakfast / magical SSD powers narrative when in reality these machines are just budget gaming options that are outdated the very second they hit the store shelves. Amazing budget options that are punching way, way above their weight but c'mon we can't expect miracles.
People keep spewing this talking point with zero idea if it's even true.
JackMcGunns
Member
Games of Today
Member
When you jump back and forth that quickly it will always feel like dogshit. You have to watch a movie or something 24fps first and then jump into a 30fps experience but even that may not be enough.
You have to also play that game game for multiple hours for your brain to get used to it. The second you jump back into 60fps you have to repeat this process.
Personally I'm so excited for this game that I was considering buying an Xbox but I'm not going back to 30fps. I'm going to build a new PC with an I7, 4080 and 64gb of Ram.
I'll be playing this and going virtual camping in Red Dead 2 for the foreseeable future at 4K, 60fps. Because I don't my games to run any higher than that.
93xfan
Banned
It would make me sad if people were really too stupid to understand this.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
The engine is one of the oldest, creakiest engines out there. This had been known by everyone for centuries. Wtf are you talking about?
It's def a big part of why this is 30 fps but if it's able to hit 60 at times than it can have a performance mode at a lower framerate if they wanted to. This isn't rocket science
Oh ...and if people are believing this will be a stable experience and one of Bethesdas "least Buggy games" even at 30 fps, get ready for disappointment. The warning signs are all over the place that this game will have major technical issues.
They had an extra year at least to optimize. It's still shown running at an inconsistent 30 fps. It's the Creation engine and it's Bethesda.
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DragonNCM
Member
please God be stable 30fps.....
The Infectious Paradox
Gold Member
Why have 60fps when you can have 400 sandwiches in the exact same spot throughout the entire game?