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[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Still don't see a reason for not giving the players options. Start game in performance mode, be stuck in performance mode for that save, with the scaled down graphics and AI etc.

Exactly. Make the 30 fps the default mode. Problem solved. Most people will play the default mode anyway. That's how companies like MS have been able to worm something like Crossplay into multiplayer games.

They must think people are stupid to not think we can understand that 30 fps is the way they "want" us to play, if people instead decided to OPT INTO the shakier performance mode.

People know what they mean by "creative choice". They should be honest instead of using wordplay as an excuse. They don't want to "sacrifice their vision" because they don't want to take the time and $$ to add an optional mode that sacrifices the games visuals.

It's still a bad thing no matter how you look at it especially because the game now won't ever have the ability to be 60 fps even when the Series "X2" comes out.

NX Gamer and DF tend to walk the party line guys. Don't forget that.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Apparently, people love these frequent dips and tearing across their screens in FF16

If Starfield and FF16 aren't proof that mid gen consoles are needed than I don't know what to tell people. Both big "next gen(ish)" exclusives with massive resources backing them

 

[Neo_game]

It is their engine, but we will find out how much difference the CPU can make on PC. Intresting that he says the game can drop fps to 20's. Interior it can be upto 1620p and outside 1271p. It is dynamic so the lower and upper bound probably will vary.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

30fps never makes sense with fps.
TPS games like Zelda barely get a pass.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

1292p and 30 fps is definitely now NEXT-GEN


fucking pathetic green rat... waiting and sucking up to corporation ..



Same shills called a PS5 an 8.9 tflop console overclocked after 12.2 tflop Xbo Ser X reveal.

There is nothing next gen about Starfield other than scale, which we already know is something that's been available on consoles for years.

I swear the people defending 30 fps are either Xbox fanboys or PC master racers

Well, Square Enix made a game just for you. You need to check out the new Final Fantasy my man.

At least FF16 has the option and potential for optimization in the future. When the ps5 pro comes out or ps6, at least ff16 will be playable at a locked 60 fps! And at least FF16 is a 3rd person action game and not an FPS shooter

 

[SF Kosmo]

So, at times the game runs at 60 but they cap it at 30 "just cause"? have an uncapped option you buffoons.

I think the problem with an uncapped rate is that certain processes might cause frame time spikes that could be covered up at 30fps but would be really apparent if you had VRR or 60fps.

For example, we know from the videos it updates cube maps every 10 frames or so. Those frames are gonna take longer to render.

There's a lot of CPU bound processes like that that aren't necessarily every frame and so you aren't going to get even frametimes.

We all like 60fps, Bethesda isn't doing this to mess with you, they are running the game at 30 because it looks bad at 60. It's time to come to terms with this.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

FPS shooter

TIMESTAMPTED:

 

[R6Rider]

If Starfield and FF16 aren't proof that mid gen consoles are needed than I don't know what to tell people. Both big "next gen(ish)" exclusives with massive resources backing them

Disagree when it comes to FF16. Nothing that game is doing is beyond the PS5s capability at 60fps. The demo lacked the optimization that I hope is there in the final version.

 

[adamsapple]

Disagree when it comes to FF16. Nothing that game is doing is beyond the PS5s capability at 60fps. The demo lacked the optimization that I hope is there in the final version.

It isn't, unfortunately.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/digital-foundry-final-fantasy-16-playstation-5-tech-review.1658056/

 

[Deerock71]

Because people demanding 60 FPS are whiners with watery eyes.

 

[Silent Viper]

Another excellent and very informative video by NXGamer.

One criticism I do have however, is that he predicates his discussion on the GPU rendering load on them using a deferred renderer at 4K resolution as a reason for the 30fps cap on console, however, I'm pretty sure we know Starfield doesn't actually render at native 4K on XSX but uses reconstruction to get up to 4K. So with the majority of the GPU rendering workload being resolution dependent, by internally rendering at something a little over 1080p, and using an AI reconstruction technique to get up to 4K they'll be saving considerable performance than rendering at 4K natively; which is what NXGamer's tests on Fallout and Skyrim were based on.

All that said, I think he's right on the money on the CPU workload discussion and I think the increased CPU work due to procedural generation, advanced physics, and animation is the real reason for the 30fps cap. Well... that combined with the bus contention issues of XSX's split memory pools.

YourcSensible post got two likes whereas post people posting nonsense and bashing Starfield got multiple likes?

I guess It really hurts game is exclusive huh

 

[DenchDeckard]

Guess we will all take locked 30fps after recent findings. Next gen is here and these consoles aren't different than any before them.

If you want anything different, invest in a pc.

 

[DaGwaphics]

They might work on it post-launch to have a separate 60 FPS mod with cuts to reach it, but at this point just because it reaches 60 at some points, it doesn't mean its gonna be a viable mode at launch.

In light of the performance of recent 60fps modes in current-gen only games, I think it is a smart move to bring this in post launch if at all. Force those reviewing the game to focus on the 30fps mode.

The less than stellar 60fps modes was all that anyone was talking about with Jedi Survivor when the 30fps mode was working just fine for the most part.

 

[Agent_Nobody]

I think the problem with an uncapped rate is that certain processes might cause frame time spikes that could be covered up at 30fps but would be really apparent if you had VRR or 60fps.

For example, we know from the videos it updates cube maps every 10 frames or so. Those frames are gonna take longer to render.

There's a lot of CPU bound processes like that that aren't necessarily every frame and so you aren't going to get even frametimes.

We all like 60fps, Bethesda isn't doing this to mess with you, they are running the game at 30 because it looks bad at 60. It's time to come to terms with this.

Yup, like I said in one of the other threads: the uncapped/60fps mod will come pretty much almost as soon the modding tools and the mods for Xbox are available. They just don’t want to put their stamp on it.

It’s just likely going to be really rough. While people keep arguing that they should just add the option; it can cause issues and they have enough testing to do already being Bethesda. They won’t just plop the option in with no testing and let another round of headaches come in about the shitty/broken: ’performance mode’.

 

[Slicker than your average]

But according to 'experts' here, there's nothing next-gen about Starfield. Check-mate.

What exactly is next gen about starfield do tell.

It's definitely not the graphics because they look last gen.
Isn't the performance or resolution.
Isn't the game play because running around like fallout but with an optional jetpack isn't next gen.

Enlightenment me.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

TIMESTAMPTED:

Hehe

 

[Xenon]

The engine sucks. We've been saying this since Oblivion.

Maybe MS should fund a new engine, worked great for Halo.

 

[nemiroff]

What exactly is next gen about starfield do tell.

It's definitely not the graphics because they look last gen.
Isn't the performance or resolution.
Isn't the game play because running around like fallout but with an optional jetpack isn't next gen.

Enlightenment me.

 

[adamsapple]

What exactly is next gen about starfield do tell.

It's definitely not the graphics because they look last gen.
Isn't the performance or resolution.
Isn't the game play because running around like fallout but with an optional jetpack isn't next gen.

Enlightenment me.

Not sure why you say the graphics look last gen, is it based on some low res character models? that happens in all releases.

The game is using an expensive real time GI lighting solution that looks great, it's not baked lighting. It's using FSR2 to reach a very clean 4K resolve, not the fuzzy/blurry FSR1 variety, along with a scale and scope that very few major releases try to tackle, the materials, terrains, texture quality is also very high.

You should watch the DF video for more on the game.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

What exactly is next gen about starfield do tell.

It's definitely not the graphics because they look last gen.
Isn't the performance or resolution.
Isn't the game play because running around like fallout but with an optional jetpack isn't next gen.

Enlightenment me.

Jet-pack was in Fallout 4. You’re right it’s a last gen game!

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Not sure why you say the graphics look last gen, is it based on some low res character models? that happens in all releases.

The game is using an expensive real time GI lighting solution that looks great, it's not baked lighting. It's using FSR2 to reach a very clean 4K resolve, not the fuzzy/blurry FSR1 variety, along with a scale and scope that very few major releases try to tackle, the materials, terrains, texture quality is also very high.

You should watch the DF video for more on the game.

Most people mean not next gen as in it looks crossgen not that it looks last gen (ps4). Duh

 

[SF Kosmo]

Yup, like I said in one of the other threads: the uncapped/60fps mod will come pretty much almost as soon the modding tools and the mods for Xbox are available. They just don’t want to put their stamp on it.

It’s just likely going to be really rough. While people keep arguing that they should just add the option; it can cause issues and they have enough testing to do already being Bethesda. They won’t just plop the option in with no testing and let another round of headaches come in about the shitty/broken: ’performance mode’.

Yeah, can we be honest though? Consistency 30fps actually does look smoother than a herky jerky 45 with uneven frame pacing. There's a reason they aren't doing this.

I know options are never bad but you don't want this as bad as you think you do.

 

[Ribi]

Ign doing damage control for a game they've been given exclusive rights to preview. HMMMMMMM as if them downplaying fo76 in their starfield interviews wasn't evidence enough of thier bias.

 

[adamsapple]

Yeah, can we be honest though? Consistency 30fps actually does look smoother than a herky jerky 45 with uneven frame pacing. There's a reason they aren't doing this.

I know options are never bad but you don't want this as bad as you think you do.

I really hope they have mod support on Xbox like FO4, so people can mod in the vsync unlock mods like that game, that will give us an exact idea of just how much headroom is above 30 FPS (if any at all). I don't think the games gonna go above the 30s in its launch day state.

 

[killatopak]

Maybe MS should fund a new engine, worked great for Halo.

Creation Engine 2.0 is exactly the same as Halo’s. It’s Slipspace jury rigged from Midnight Engine jury rigged from Blam! Engine. It’s not some engine built up from the ground up.

Even though I’m hyped up for it but it’s the same case with Armored Core/ Elden Ring and you see how abundant its problems are tech side. It’s just Phyre Engine updated twice then updated again exclusively by Fromsoft.

In case you’re wondering, I don’t have a problem in developers using the same engine. The problem is when those engines are updated multiple times in-house yet legacy code problems still exists. Not even recent problems but decades worth of stuff.

 

[HL3.exe]

The engine is one of the oldest, creakiest engines out there. This had been known by everyone for centuries. Wtf are you talking about?

It's def a big part of why this is 30 fps but if it's able to hit 60 at times than it can have a performance mode at a lower framerate if they wanted to. This isn't rocket science

Oh ...and if people are believing this will be a stable experience and one of Bethesdas "least Buggy games" even at 30 fps, get ready for disappointment. The warning signs are all over the place that this game will have major technical issues.

They had an extra year at least to optimize. It's still shown running at an inconsistent 30 fps. It's the Creation engine and it's Bethesda.

In reality, most high profile engines are 'old'. You think UE5 is build completely from scratch? (It isn't, it still has extensive UE3 pipelines at it's core) That's not how things works in tech development. New versions of games ship with updated code for these engines so it utilizes better hardware. Some of the memory management tricks creation engine (or gamebryo) does work better there then most other tech. Their data driven code base is really sophisticated for the types of simulation tricks they do. (Yes, you have stuff like 'tech debt', but that's a whole other can of worms)

For other things, other engine may work better for other specific needs. It's what you focus your game-logic development time/budget on.

Fun fact: Also Rockstar's tech is really creeky and old. It stems from the late 90's with Midtown Madness, went through a extensive rewrite for GTA IV and that same 2006-2008 code base is still in use. Did RDR 2 feel old and buggy? A lot of the data structure is exactly the same, so modders have a easy time learning to mod RDR2 if they already knew GTA IV (as an example).

Game bugs have rarely to do with the engine. An engine is a tool to work with. Bugs are usually because of ambitious design ideas not coming together, or hacked together and lack of time to clean systems probably. BUT with the huge systemic possibility space Bethesda games support, not everything can be bug free, but that a logical trade-off.

 

[Pop]

Yo Todd why not give us 1080p/60fps option

Surely if is 4k/30fps it can do 60 fps at 1080p

 

[Agent_Nobody]

Yeah, can we be honest though? Consistency 30fps actually does look smoother than a herky jerky 45 with uneven frame pacing. There's a reason they aren't doing this.

I know options are never bad but you don't want this as bad as you think you do.

Uhhh, I was in agreement, the whole second paragraph was backing your point

I’m fine with 30. I play Fallout 4 modded to the T on SX and I wouldn’t play it at 60 on my life with what I have going. It’s just too damn rough. You can really tax the system with some of the mod combinations. But at 30 it’s fairly smooth other than a traversal hitch once in a while.

 

[HL3.exe]

NX Gamer and DF tend to walk the party line guys. Don't forget that.

Totally not conspiratorial. Gaf is pulling out all the educated and good-faith folks today.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Uhhh, I was in agreement, the whole second paragraph was backing your point

Oh I know, I didn't mean "you" specifically I just meant it like y'all

 

[Agent_Nobody]

Oh I know, I didn't mean "you" specifically I just meant it like y'all

What do you mean ‘y’all’!? Like ‘y’all’ is just for bunnies that have waffles on their heads!? is that it!?

It’s all good.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Uhhh, I was in agreement, the whole second paragraph was backing your point

I’m fine with 30. I play Fallout 4 modded to the T on SX and I wouldn’t play it at 60 on my life with what I have going. It’s just too damn rough. You can really tax the system with some of the mod combinations. But at 30 it’s fairly smooth other than a traversal hitch once in a while.

Yeah mods might also be able to disable some features to boost framerate too. It might be possible but it will come at a cost.

Really curious to see how this one holds up on PC.

 

[Phase]

Yeah mods might also be able to disable some features to boost framerate too. It might be possible but it will come at a cost.

Really curious to see how this one holds up on PC.

I can't wait for the mods!

 

[Xenon]

Creation Engine 2.0 is exactly the same as Halo’s. It’s Slipspace jury rigged from Midnight Engine jury rigged from Blam! Engine. It’s not some engine built up from the ground up.

Even though I’m hyped up for it but it’s the same case with Armored Core/ Elden Ring and you see how abundant its problems are tech side. It’s just Phyre Engine updated twice then updated again exclusively by Fromsoft.

In case you’re wondering, I don’t have a problem in developers using the same engine. The problem is when those engines are updated multiple times in-house yet legacy code problems still exists. Not even recent problems but decades worth of stuff.

But what really is the alternative? What engine has the scale of this engine yet Still maintain the interactivity that CE provides? I would love a new engine. I just don't think in this current corporate environment that enough money would make it to the people actually doing the work to get something like this created.

 

[RedC]

Oh come on. You see the slacktivists docking it hard because of the "evil white people." Just stop, you are being silly now. None of them, and I mean NONE of them mention anything about modes.

They even say and I quote, "would be one of the best games of all time... but white people."

Go visit the review thread and stop acting like this thread is the reason that a great game is supposedly not great, even though it has great scores till minus the bullshit outliers and their retard idPol.

Wait... Hold up

I haven't been keeping track of the latest Final Fantasy reviews but was that really the reason they docked points in some reviews???

I find that hilarious if true.

Although If it was a party and there were too many white people, I could understand docking points.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Wait... Hold up

I haven't been keeping track of the latest Final Fantasy reviews but was that really the reason they docked points in some reviews???

I find that hilarious if true.

Although If it was a party and there were too many white people, I could understand docking points.

Go to the review thread.

 

[In Cold Blood]

It is what it is.
I don't have an issue playing it at 30fps.

 

[killatopak]

But what really is the alternative? What engine has the scale of this engine yet Still maintain the interactivity that CE provides? I would love a new engine. I just don't think in this current corporate environment that enough money would make it to the people actually doing the work to get something like this created.

Just hope that whatever they‘ve cooked up for CE2 for Starfield launch is enough to make it seem modern. Fixing multithreading seems to be the largest issue. They’ve already announced new lighting, physics and landscaping(caves and tombs to planet generation). Hoping they’ll fix animation issues as well since they’re fixing physics. Dunno if ragdoll space swatting giant physics will still be still there.

They did say that they had more people working on the engine update than ever before. Dunno how much or how proportional it is to the amount of work they need to do relative to how complex games are nowadays.

Personally, I never thought of Bethesda changing engines for selfish reasons. Mainly mod support and compatibility. I can easily port a lot of stuff from older game to newer ones and vice versa. I mean I’ve done it before. Just not the more intricate ones.

As for Alternative, maybe Source 2? Doubt that engine will be updated though since they have a burning hatred for the number 3. Though they tick all the boxes. Even has VR as well.

 

[Wooxsvan]

i just cant wait to see what PC cpu/gpu combo it takes to run this game at solid 1440p/60 w/ no drops/hitches.

 

[SteelCurtain 59]

Ready for this game to get review bombed because a subset of gamers randomly decided 30FPS was cancer and forgot that most of their favorite games were 30fps or lower

 

[adamsapple]

Ready for this game to get review bombed because a subset of gamers randomly decided 30FPS was cancer and forgot that most of their favorite games were 30fps or lower

user reviews are the absolute worst metric and should not be given a second of ones time at all, folks who take the time and contribute 0's to any game on metacritic are the worst.

 

[UltimaKilo]

What exactly is next gen about starfield do tell.

It's definitely not the graphics because they look last gen.
Isn't the performance or resolution.
Isn't the game play because running around like fallout but with an optional jetpack isn't next gen.

Enlightenment me.

The trolls are out!

 

[ZoukGalaxy]

I don't care about 60fps, fortunately for me, but these "why 30fps is [insert_excuse]" are getting absolutely beyond ridiculous, whatever it's from Phil or any clueless "journalists" or suckstubers, it's a just parody. 120fps day one mod incoming on PC, we'll get even a VR mod, I'm sure.

Just stop it for the love of our God Jesus Allah Buddha Toad Todd damn it.

 

[FireFly]

Jet-pack was in Fallout 4. You’re right it’s a last gen game!

Jet pack was already in Duke 3D. The Elder Scrolls: Arena had procedurally generated worlds. Wing Commander had space combat.

So really it's an Elder Scrolls: Arena clone in space with bits from other 90's games. Can't believe they're getting away with it.

 

[Xenon]

So really it's an Elder Scrolls: Arena clone in space with bits from other 90's games. Can't believe they're getting away with it.

Hell yah, they need to put this quote on the box!

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Ready for this game to get review bombed because a subset of gamers randomly decided 30FPS was cancer and forgot that most of their favorite games were 30fps or lower

Right. When 30 fps was the only option, those were people's favorite games.

Those same games at 60 fps would be enjoyed even more.

People did not "randomly decide 30 fps was cancer". No, it's taken years for many people to realize how much smoother an experience 60 fps is because, thanks to this generation, the majority of people are no longer ignorant about framerates.

Why do you think so many 30 fps warriors from last gen have admitted to "seeing the light" this gen? A lot.

Your argument is nonsense. Not only is it a straw man that misrepresents what people actually think but you use the "bandwagon fallacy" that, just because lots of people in the past THOUGHT 30 fps was good does not mean it IS ACCEPTABLE today.

Your point wouldve been valid last gen and during the 360 era when consoles didn't have the hardware to run this game at 60 with their slow jaguar CPU's, it doesn't hold water anymore with modern CPU. They don't have to sacrifice this game into "Oblivion" to get it to run at 60 fps as we're all going to see when it releases and similarly spec'd PC's can run it.

The reason they're not doing it is because they think they can get away with it on console which will save them a lot of time and money. They know the console audience will more easily accept this as we're seeing play out on Gaf.

 

[adamsapple]

Hell yah, they need to put this quote on the box!

Starfield: We can't believe we're getting away with this

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Totally not conspiratorial. Gaf is pulling out all the educated and good-faith folks today.

It's true. Just like most mainstream sites like IGN do the same thing in almost every review and preview. If you can't see that it's you who's gullible and not intelligent.

These sites have a long history of staying in the good favor of the mega corps and large publishers. They get early access, free codes, free trips to events, free review copies and consoles etc.

Digital Foundry helped MS market the Series X and have repeated the talking points that MS gives them. I remember the preview they did for Series X. They were the FIRST youtubers to go hands on with it. They told us all about Gears 1 Ultimate running 4k/60 (where is that btw?) they talked about Minecraft with path tracing etc. The failures of those promises are not DF's fault but don't act like they don't have incentive to stay in the good graces of MS. DF goes soft on Sony too.

Ign is one of the worst shill sites out there and low and behold NX gamer works for them. Anyone with half a drop of sense could predict that these sites would go along with the 30 fps narrative because they've tended to this for YEARS.

HOW ABOUT ADDRESSING MY POINTS INSTEAD OF AD HOMINEM ATTACKS BTW.

When someone resorts to name calling and character attacks it means you've lost the argument already.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

Jet pack was already in Duke 3D. The Elder Scrolls: Arena had procedurally generated worlds. Wing Commander had space combat.

So really it's an Elder Scrolls: Arena clone in space with bits from other 90's games. Can't believe they're getting away with it.

I think you’re confusing Arena with Daggerfall.

 

[FireFly]

I think you’re confusing Arena with Daggerfall.

I thought Arena was the one with the procedurally generated map and Daggerfall just had a ridiculously huge map.