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Immersion and Sony continue to talk about rumble

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
Panajev2001a said:
Also, just because Nintendo invested in a firm specialized in motion sensing hardware and applications and was able to make rumble work with their motion sensing apparatus does not mean the technology Sony came up with so far works perfectly with rumble motors.

Still, I fail to see how they could not block via software the rumble when games that use motion sensing features are inserted.

Still, if many developers insert motion sensing features then it would make it so that you could forget having rumble in the first place...

I think you'd have to have your Sony blinders tied to your head to believe, even for a second, Sony's ridiculous excuse about the technologies not being compatible. They could've used a million more reasons that actually made sense (i.e. drains too much battery when included with bluetooth + tilt sensing, etc), but the technologies not being "compatible" is a flat-out lie.

Furthermore, I think the two technologies would actually complement eachother. Rumble could actually affect your ability to tilt, which would affect gameplay. For example, if you get hit by an enemy missle in warhawk, it rumbles the controller, which would consequently cause your ship to shake and lose course for a second. In that case, controlling your controller literally becomes part of gameplay. I think you could come up with several scenarios like that, or if its a problem, you could disable rumble or tilt ingame to appropriately handle what you want to do.

Kaching said:
No, I'm saying I doubt that Sony is in any mood to work with Immersion, regardless of what deal they may make after the settlement.

exactly, which is an extremely childish course of action for a corporation to take. They should do what is best for them and their product line, accept their defeat and move on.
 

Goreomedy

Console Market Analyst
DenogginizerOS said:
So, THAT is why you sometimes take forever to take your turn in Uno. :lol

Expensive recharge pack? Versus buying batteries every month? You are spending more for batteries in the long run methinks.

I explained the Uno thing already! :D

Here's the difference between my PS2 Logitech controller, which allows for rumble to be turned off on the controller itself, and my Xbox360 controller:

The batteries in my PS2 controller have lasted well over a year. They have survived marathon sessions of San Andreas, God of War, SotC, MGS3, etc.

Because the 360 controller does not have that ability, and I'm too lazy to open the options menu every time I play to turn off rumble, I've already burned through three sets of batteries. So yeah, I'll probably have to get a recharge pack. They planned this all along!
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Nerevar said:
I think you'd have to have your Sony blinders tied to your head to believe, even for a second, Sony's ridiculous excuse about the technologies not being compatible. They could've used a million more reasons that actually made sense (i.e. drains too much battery when included with bluetooth + tilt sensing, etc), but the technologies not being "compatible" is a flat-out lie.

You are right, darn I forgot that in order to say what is lie or is not a lie you do not really need some proof or a plausible explanation :rolleyes.

Notice I merely provided the POSSIBILITY that their technology as it is might present problems when rumble is active as it could mislead the motion sensing apparatus inside the controller by affecting its precision and its accuracy in sensing tilt, yaw and pitch as well as motion on all three axises.

Did I say that rumble and motion sensing are mutually exclusive ? No, I stated the exact opposite providing Nintendo's Wii Remote as example of how you can do both things together.

Now, we could entertain this possibility and ask ourselves why this is. In this "possible scenario", did the designer of the motion sensing apparatus take shortcuts that create some problems with rumble because they KNEW it was not going to be supported by the final PLAYSTATION 3 controller or did the fact that the technology needed more investment and more years of R&D (given Sony might be new to the technology and not have the experience other companies have in that particular area) was YET another reason not to cave in and beg Immersion for a license (taking for granted Immersion even wants to allow Sony to license their technology) ?
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
Nerevar said:
exactly, which is an extremely childish course of action for a corporation to take. They should do what is best for them and their product line, accept their defeat and move on.
Eh, I think its a little more calculating than that but I can see why you want to paint it as a strictly emotional response.
 

M3Freak

Banned
I used to really enjoy the rumble feature. I thought it was cool to feel explosions, gun shots, etc. It did make some games more real.

Then I got married. Now my wife and I together had more disposal income. So, I built a home theatre over the course of 2 years. The home theatre includes a Paradigm Reference Servo 15. That's right: a 15" sub.

I had explosions, guns shots, etc., shaking the entire basement. The rumble in my hands was still neat, but was more of an irritant than cool. The constant rumbling, buzzing, etc., made my wrists feel wierd. I really disliked that feeling.

Nowadays I turn the rumble off. I don't miss it. The home theatre more than makes up for the controller rumble.

Oddly, to this day, I still swing the controller widely when playing some action packed games. Strange, that...
 
My one cent (not enough time for two):

I would love it if Sony and Immersion patched up their non-existant relationship and implemented this wonderful-sounding rumble technology into the DualShock 3 (actually making the freaking controller shock).

Who is being backed up against the wall? It's certainly not Sony. Sony is the kid who sticks his fingers in his ears while yelling "Lalalalala", while Immersion, somewhat desperately, pleads with Sony. Considering some consumer feedback, Sony would be wise to do something with Immersion for the sake of the customer, but Immersion is the one who would benefit the most. If Sony does not implement this technology into the DS3, then Immersion's nifty invention may not be utilized properly until the next generation of consoles (or sell through PC controllers; note Immersion's spotty past with the PC industry).

If Sony can ignore the 20/30% Microsoft ownership (not likely), then Immersion should decrease the amount they crave from the lawsuit. Whatever amount of money they drop will probably be earned back rather quickly through (reasonable) royalties.
 

Argyle

Member
Just so you guys know...

Immersion is disincentivized to settle with Sony, because they would have to pay MS back a significant part of money....

Check this out:

In the event of a settlement of the Sony Computer Entertainment litigation, the Company will realize and retain net cash proceeds received from Sony Computer Entertainment only to the extent that settlement proceeds exceed the amounts due Microsoft for its Participation Rights and any outstanding 7% Debentures and interest as specified above. Under certain circumstances related to a Company initiated settlement with Sony Computer Entertainment, the Company would be obligated to pay Microsoft a minimum of $15.0 million. In the event of an unfavorable judicial resolution or a dismissal or withdrawal by Immersion of the lawsuit meeting certain conditions, the Company would not be required to make any payments to Microsoft except pursuant to the payment provisions relating to any outstanding 7% Debentures.

In short, if I'm reading this right:

If Immersion settles, they have to pay MS back at least $15M. If Immersion loses in court, they don't have to pay MS. Under those circumstances, do you think that Immersion was seriously seeking a settlement with Sony?

Original link: http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?FilingID=3670864&Type=HTML
 
Argyle said:
In short, if I'm reading this right:

If Immersion settles, they have to pay MS back at least $15M. If Immersion loses in court, they don't have to pay MS. Under those circumstances, do you think that Immersion was seriously seeking a settlement with Sony?

Original link: http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?FilingID=3670864&Type=HTML

So Immersion's ultimate plan is to get all the money they want from the lawsuit, plus additional Sony income from the implementation of the TouchSense technology into the DS3?

...

Not going to happen.
 

M3Freak

Banned
Nerevar said:
Furthermore, I think the two technologies would actually complement eachother. Rumble could actually affect your ability to tilt, which would affect gameplay. For example, if you get hit by an enemy missle in warhawk, it rumbles the controller, which would consequently cause your ship to shake and lose course for a second. In that case, controlling your controller literally becomes part of gameplay. I think you could come up with several scenarios like that, or if its a problem, you could disable rumble or tilt ingame to appropriately handle what you want to do.

That sounds cool, but you can do that in software:

1. tilt controller, bank right
2. enemy fires in your direction
3. tilt controller like maniac trying to avoid enemy fire
4. spastic movements suck, you get hit
5. game logic kicks in, can't tilt right very well anymore

I understand what you're saying, and it sounds great. However, the rumble feature certainly isn't needed to implement the above.
 

WalkMan

Banned
typo said:
So Immersion's ultimate plan is to get all the money they want from the lawsuit, plus additional Sony income from the implementation of the TouchSense technology into the DS3?

...

Not going to happen.
I was hoping Immersion would lose the lawsuit :\. The thing is though that the patent is only valid in the US correct?
 
some interesting facts regarding Immersion Corporation

1. Their stock plummeted from 8.99 (May 3rd) to 6.37 (May 15th). Hmm wonder why. Current stock price is 5.77.

2. Their current market cap (share price multipled by number of shares) is $141 Million. So Sony could buy the whole company for an extra $49 million above the $92 million they owe :lol (well actually the stock price would go up, and also I dont think Microsoft would be too willing to sell their shares).

3. Their 2005 revenue was $24.28 million so they REALLY want sony to sign up.
 
cleveridea said:
some interesting facts regarding Immersion Corporation

1. Their stock plummeted from 8.99 (May 3rd) to 6.37 (May 15th). Hmm wonder why. Current stock price is 5.77.

2. Their current market cap (share price multipled by number of shares) is $141 Million. So Sony could buy the whole company for an extra $49 million above the $92 million they owe :lol (well actually the stock price would go up, and also I dont think Microsoft would be too willing to sell their shares).

3. Their 2005 revenue was $24.28 million so they REALLY want sony to sign up.

ken1.jpg
 

DarienA

The black man everyone at Activision can agree on
cleveridea said:
some interesting facts regarding Immersion Corporation

1. Their stock plummeted from 8.99 (May 3rd) to 6.37 (May 15th). Hmm wonder why. Current stock price is 5.77.

2. Their current market cap (share price multipled by number of shares) is $141 Million. So Sony could buy the whole company for an extra $49 million above the $92 million they owe :lol (well actually the stock price would go up, and also I dont think Microsoft would be too willing to sell their shares).

3. Their 2005 revenue was $24.28 million so they REALLY want sony to sign up.

So where's Wulfer and his "MS is just waitin to buy Immersion" talk? Sounds like they already can be bought for a song...
 

DrGAKMAN

Banned
Call me dumb, but didn't Miyamoto say that the rumble in the Wiimote was done through the speaker...as in sound = vibration = rumble? Would save on batteries (since you wouldn't need to power rumble & speaker seperatly), wouldn't interfere with anyone elses patents and would be a pretty neat-o implimentation of the features as well as offering pretty unique/detailed rumble/vibration patterns.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
DrGAKMAN said:
Call me dumb, but didn't Miyamoto say that the rumble in the Wiimote was done through the speaker...as in sound = vibration = rumble? Would save on batteries (since you wouldn't need to power rumble & speaker seperatly), wouldn't interfere with anyone elses patents and would be a pretty neat-o implimentation of the features as well as offering pretty unique/detailed rumble/vibration patterns.

You'd get a real effective rumble out of that...
 

Mrbob

Member
Well, I personally feel rumble is one of the most overrated features of a controller (Although one of the best uses of rumble I ever seen in a game was with Quake 4 on 360). It was cool at first when I played MGS on PSone in 1998, but the rumble technology just hasn't improved that much in the past 8 years. Mostly a gimmick at the moment, with few games taking advantage of rumble. However, Immersion's Touch Sense technology sounds awesome and could lead to the first real breakthrough in rumble technology in years. I'll buy another 360 controller with this technology inside of it in a heart beat. Hopefully it comes out before 2007 so most games can take advantage of of this new TouchSense rumble technology.

If Sony somehow settles there differences with Immersion and gets this technology into PS3 controller on day one that would be hot shiznit. How can you call a controller Dual Shock without the rumble?
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
I don't get why Sony doesn't come up with their own rumble. They seriously can't think of their own rumble implementation?
 

Mrbob

Member
cleveridea said:
some interesting facts regarding Immersion Corporation

1. Their stock plummeted from 8.99 (May 3rd) to 6.37 (May 15th). Hmm wonder why. Current stock price is 5.77.

2. Their current market cap (share price multipled by number of shares) is $141 Million. So Sony could buy the whole company for an extra $49 million above the $92 million they owe :lol (well actually the stock price would go up, and also I dont think Microsoft would be too willing to sell their shares).

3. Their 2005 revenue was $24.28 million so they REALLY want sony to sign up.

Immersion is stupid. They should have thought long term. Cut a deal with Sony before it is too late.
 
Goreomedy said:
How, exactly? Because after all the comments about MGS being the only series to put it to "interesting" use, I think I have to agree. Controller handles farting in my palms in sync to explosions on screen is a bit of a joke now when you have 5.1 surround sound and a powerful subwoofer shaking the whole damn room.

But don't mind me. I'm just a cheapass who turns off rumble so I don't have to buy replacement batteries or expensive recharge packs.
I haven't had any problems with the life of 360's controllers. rumble helps many games/genres I want rumble. to me its as important as 5.1 sound. try playing a game at night in my apartment complex.... can't excastly have the sound turned up high to have the bass shake the room... rumble is a expected feature and it effects gameplay.
 
Y2Kevbug11 said:
I don't get why Sony doesn't come up with their own rumble. They seriously can't think of their own rumble implementation?

Umm... isn't that the whole point of defending themselves in the lawsuit? They claimed they developed it on their own without ever referencing Immersion technology, despite their similarity.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
typo said:
Umm... isn't that the whole point of defending themselves in the lawsuit? They claimed they developed it on their own without ever referencing Immersion technology, despite their similarity.

And they lost.

So drop the obvious lie and come up with their own genuine rumble.
 
Y2Kevbug11 said:
And they lost.

So drop the obvious lie and come up with their own genuine rumble.

...

Anyways, if they could come up with their own genuine rumble scheme that was somehow different from Immersion's patents (note the vagueness of Immersion's patents), they would have.
 

Skilotonn

xbot xbot xbot xbot xbot
Goreomedy said:
I explained the Uno thing already! :D

Here's the difference between my PS2 Logitech controller, which allows for rumble to be turned off on the controller itself, and my Xbox360 controller:

The batteries in my PS2 controller have lasted well over a year. They have survived marathon sessions of San Andreas, God of War, SotC, MGS3, etc.

Because the 360 controller does not have that ability, and I'm too lazy to open the options menu every time I play to turn off rumble, I've already burned through three sets of batteries. So yeah, I'll probably have to get a recharge pack. They planned this all along!

...ummm... you do know that you can turn rumble off in the Dashboard, and it WILL stay off until you choose to turn it on again, right?
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
typo said:
...

Anyways, if they could come up with their own genuine rumble scheme that was somehow different from Immersion's patents (note the vagueness of Immersion's patents), they would have.

Why would they have? It's easier to just steal and then say you didn't.

Now that they can no longer steal, they need to come up with their own system. That's all I was saying. I doubt Sony spent a ton on development when they could just steal it from immersion.
 

Tellaerin

Member
Y2Kevbug11 said:
And they lost.

So drop the obvious lie and come up with their own genuine rumble.

Losing the case doesn't automatically mean they lied. It just means they couldn't satisfy a judge as to the truthfulness of their claims. There's a world of difference.

I think that if Sony had duplicated Immersion's technology outright, they would have made a token denial to save face with the public and shareholders, then settled out of court. I believe they fought because they did develop the tech they were using independently, and thought they'd be able to produce enough evidence to get a ruling in their favor. Unfortunately for them, it didn't pan out that way. *shrug*
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
I think that if Sony had duplicated Immersion's technology outright, they would have made a token denial to save face with the public and shareholders, then settled out of court. I believe they fought because they did develop the tech they were using independently, and thought they'd be able to produce enough evidence to get a ruling in their favor. Unfortunately for them, it didn't pan out that way. *shrug*

Ms settled with Immersion first and took the usual action of paying via stock purchase. Yes, you get the money but MS get a chunk of your company. With that in mind, i'm not sure sony could have settled out of court even if they wanted to. :/
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Tellaerin said:
Losing the case doesn't automatically mean they lied. It just means they couldn't satisfy a judge as to the truthfulness of their claims. There's a world of difference.

Oh, I think they lied. :D

But you're right.
 

LukeSmith

Member
Bud said:
about 30% i think.

Wrong -- it was the equivalent of roughly 10%, which Microsoft sold off after the licensing agreement was announced and their stake in the company could replenish some of the $20M licensing deal. There are some residual conditions that others have posted above, though.

Good try though, the Internet is a fun place to make stuff up, Bud.
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
i think sony would rather invest the 92 million they could use to 'settle' with Immersion and just make their own rumble tech.
 

Cheerilee

Member
Here's how I thought it all happened.

Right after Nintendo unveiled the N64 and surprised everybody by having analog, there was a lot of talk about how "force feedback" was going to be the next frontier of controller design. There were some force feedback controllers available for PC's, but they cost more than the entire N64 did. Immersion was a leader in that field, and Nintendo was having meetings with them, which everyone thought was crazy.

Then (obviously inspired by Immersion's work) Nintendo came up with the idea of putting a $1 vibrator motor inside a controller, called it "rumble" (not true force feedback), patented it (patent # 6,200,253), and unveiled the Rumble Pak. Immersion got the rug yanked out from under them, and Sony had their face in the mud because they had just finished redesigning their controller to steal analog.

Immersion and Sony both dove on Nintendo's patent and tore apart some Rumble Paks, trying to find a loophole. Immersion found one, and patented their own brand of rumble (patent # 6,693,622). Then Sony supposedly found the exact same loophole, applied for a patent, made the Dual Shock, slapped "patent pending" on it, and shipped it out the door. Immersion won the rights to the loophole, because they were quicker on the draw, most likely because of their greater experience in force feedback.

I don't know what the loophole was, but Nintendo's patent seems to describe two pieces, the controller's shell and a "vibration source", while Immersion's talks about three pieces, the controller's shell, a "rotation actuator" (motor) and a weighted mass. They're both the same thing (a motor with a weight glued to the shaft), but I guess that if you describe your product to the authorities as a one piece unit you're Nintendo's bitch, and if you break it down into it's primary components you're Immersion's.

Either way, Sony's patent was rejected and ownership of the technology (unless you go through Nintendo) belongs to Immersion. Supposedly Immersion brought this up with Sony in the PSX-era, but they were unwilling to negotiate anything. Immersion had no means to fight Sony in court, and Sony knew it, so they didn't give a rat's ass about them.

Then Sega used rumble in the Dreamcast (optionally), but I don't know what it's legal status was.

Then Sony deliberately shipped the PS2 with the Dual Shock 2 sporting illegal technology.

Then Microsoft shipped the XBox with illegal rumble technology, because everyone else seemed to be doing it, and when they were contacted by Immersion they apologized and paid the royalty. Then they decided to lend Immersion enough money to sue Sony, probably just for the amusement value.

Immersion won a fair amount that's essentially a piddling sum compared to what Sony earned on the Dual Shock and DS2, but Sony's refusing to pay and now they're dropping the technology altogether.

Immersion would like the money they're owed, and they'd also like to continue working for people. They think that Sony can earn more money by working with them and having a good controller than they can by fighting. Sony wants us to forget about rumble and brush the whole thing under the rug. Immersion would like to keep reminding us, in order to keep their's and Sony's financial interests together.

Sony fanboys would like Immerison to forgive Sony's two generations worth of debt on the off chance that Sony might be willing to hire them for at least one generation, because that would deliver a better controller. It holds some odd business sense, as it seems that's the only way Immersion will ever get a dime out of Sony.
 

DrGAKMAN

Banned
DrGAKMAN said:
Call me dumb, but didn't Miyamoto say that the rumble in the Wiimote was done through the speaker...as in sound = vibration = rumble? Would save on batteries (since you wouldn't need to power rumble & speaker seperatly), wouldn't interfere with anyone elses patents and would be a pretty neat-o implimentation of the features as well as offering pretty unique/detailed rumble/vibration patterns.

Can someone back me up on this...am I right?
 

Kangu

Banned
DrGAKMAN said:
Call me dumb, but didn't Miyamoto say that the rumble in the Wiimote was done through the speaker...as in sound = vibration = rumble? Would save on batteries (since you wouldn't need to power rumble & speaker seperatly), wouldn't interfere with anyone elses patents and would be a pretty neat-o implimentation of the features as well as offering pretty unique/detailed rumble/vibration patterns.

You're dumb.
 

Yoboman

Member
Sony should really just leave a port for a rumble pack and let third parties deal with the rest. At the least

Immersion are damn well asking a lot if they're expecting a continued relationship, royalties from every single dual shock sold? Come on
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
DCharlie said:
Ms settled with Immersion first and took the usual action of paying via stock purchase. Yes, you get the money but MS get a chunk of your company. With that in mind, i'm not sure sony could have settled out of court even if they wanted to. :/

Argyle said:
Just so you guys know...

Immersion is disincentivized to settle with Sony, because they would have to pay MS back a significant part of money....

Check this out:

In the event of a settlement of the Sony Computer Entertainment litigation, the Company will realize and retain net cash proceeds received from Sony Computer Entertainment only to the extent that settlement proceeds exceed the amounts due Microsoft for its Participation Rights and any outstanding 7% Debentures and interest as specified above. Under certain circumstances related to a Company initiated settlement with Sony Computer Entertainment, the Company would be obligated to pay Microsoft a minimum of $15.0 million. In the event of an unfavorable judicial resolution or a dismissal or withdrawal by Immersion of the lawsuit meeting certain conditions, the Company would not be required to make any payments to Microsoft except pursuant to the payment provisions relating to any outstanding 7% Debentures.

In short, if I'm reading this right:

If Immersion settles, they have to pay MS back at least $15M. If Immersion loses in court, they don't have to pay MS. Under those circumstances, do you think that Immersion was seriously seeking a settlement with Sony?

Original link: http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/...0864&Type=HTML

Very interesting how posters are basically side-stepping these two posts and still $hitting on Sony for not settling out of court/being mean and not wanting to pay ;).
 

Argyle

Member
ruby_onix said:
Here's how I thought it all happened.

Either way, Sony's patent was rejected and ownership of the technology (unless you go through Nintendo) belongs to Immersion. Supposedly Immersion brought this up with Sony in the PSX-era, but they were unwilling to negotiate anything. Immersion had no means to fight Sony in court, and Sony knew it, so they didn't give a rat's ass about them.

Then Sony deliberately shipped the PS2 with the Dual Shock 2 sporting illegal technology.

This is clearly bullshit, based on this

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6261-2005Mar28.html

Note the filing date for the lawsuit was 2002, which is after the PS2 and Dual Shock 2 launched.

If Sony knew they were infringing on Immersion's patents, it would have made sense to pay (a lot less) early on. Instead, I think Immersion sat on their patents until Sony had shipped quite a few Dual Shocks, which of course meant that at that point Sony has a lot more to lose and Immersion has more to gain - apparently Immersion wanted nearly $300M at first! I don't buy that they didn't have enough money to sue Sony either - the reason they got cash from MS is because they threatened to sue them...

Oh, and


ruby_onix said:
Then Microsoft shipped the XBox with illegal rumble technology, because everyone else seemed to be doing it, and when they were contacted by Immersion they apologized and paid the royalty. Then they decided to lend Immersion enough money to sue Sony, probably just for the amusement value.

Yeah, right. :lol :lol :lol

If anything, it might have been revenge for this little stunt. :)

http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3338841

More info, for those who care...

On February 11, 2002, we filed a patent infringement lawsuit against Microsoft Corporation, Sony Computer Entertainment, Inc., and Sony Computer Entertainment of America, Inc. in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District Court of California. The case has been assigned to Judge Wilken in the U.S. District Court, Northern District of California, Oakland. On April 4, 2002, Sony Computer Entertainment and Microsoft Corporation responded to the court regarding our claims. In response, both Sony Computer Entertainment and Microsoft Corporation, denied infringement and alleged our patents were invalid and non-enforceable. On June 14, 2002 the initial case management conference with Judge Wilken was held and the claims construction proceedings are underway. Due to the inherent uncertainties of litigation, we cannot accurately predict the ultimate outcome of the litigation. We anticipate that the litigation will be costly, and there can be no assurance that we will be able to recover the costs we incur in connection with the litigation. The litigation has diverted, and is likely to continue to divert, the efforts and attention of some of our key management and personnel. As a result, until such time as it is resolved, the litigation could adversely affect our business. Further, any unfavorable outcome could adversely affect our business.

Looks like MS and Sony were sued at the same time, which means that both companies had an opportunity to settle before this went to court! Wow, both claimed that the patents were invalid and non-enforceable! (That's some apology from MS, isn't it? Especially since Immersion was previously working with MS on the Sidewinder force feedback joysticks and wheels...)

MS was smart to later see this as a chance to put the screws on Sony, IMHO.

Full text: http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?FilingID=1962690&Type=HTML
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Argyle, kudos to you, killing a thread of anti-Sony trolling with some intelligent arguments and evidence is not an easy task here :).
 

mashoutposse

Ante Up
Unfortunately for them, I don't see Sony capitulating on this anytime soon, for the simple reason that they'd be putting money in MS' pocket with every controller sold.

Sony puts money in MS' pocket every time they sell a computer. While the destination of their money could be playing a role in their decision, I doubt it's the major factor.

Personally, I would be shocked (heh) if the PS3 makes it a generation without a first party rumble-equipped controller.
 

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
Argyle said:
Looks like MS and Sony were sued at the same time, which means that both companies had an opportunity to settle before this went to court! Wow, both claimed that the patents were invalid and non-enforceable! (That's some apology from MS, isn't it? Especially since Immersion was previously working with MS on the Sidewinder force feedback joysticks and wheels...)

MS was smart to later see this as a chance to put the screws on Sony, IMHO.

This is pretty much the current Microsoft MO for dealing with patent lawsuits that affect multiple parties. Look at how they dealt with SCO. They gain unlimited access to the technology, the cash settlement is a pittance to them, and generally the establish a "poison pill" in their contracts that prevents others from settling. Furthermore, the cash that they're throwing away can be used by the other party to continue filing lawsuits against their competitors, and all in all MS avoids getting a bad reputation by pointing the finger at someone else for what many perceive as frivolous patent lawsuits. Worst case scenario, the start-up runs out of money and the lawsuits go away against competitors, but MS owns rights to the technologies and their competitors have to burn through cash supporting expensive court cases. I'm not saying it's right (in fact, it's pretty reprehensible, but then again, what decision made by lawyers isn't?), but it's a pretty crafty way for them to abuse the existing legal climate to their advantage. And the end result is that Sony is either forced to spend money on their own internal R&D to develop a rumble technology that doesn't infringe, pay up to Microsoft, or just remove the feature altogether.
 

qirex

Member
Immersion got played by Microsoft. Now they control 30% less of their company and have no major ongoing revenue streams. It's nice to see a company get shafted by its lawsuits for a change.
 

Cheerilee

Member
Argyle said:
This is clearly bullshit, based on this
I never said I was an authority on the subject. I just felt like tossing together one complete version since people were arguing over bits and pieces.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6261-2005Mar28.html

Note the filing date for the lawsuit was 2002, which is after the PS2 and Dual Shock 2 launched.
Everybody knows that suing Sony is a costly idea that should only be used as a last resort. Immersion apparently had to spend around $30 million of Microsoft's money on legal fees in their attempt to get the $300 million they thought they were owed, and the court brought it down to $90 million. MS expects to get $15-30 million back if Immersion ever gets paid (and some of you see this as a conspiricy, making Immersion the one unwilling to come down). Which means that the date of the lawsuit is obviously not when things started happening. And Immersion has said that they were in unproductive talks with Sony for years.

If Sony knew they were infringing on Immersion's patents, it would have made sense to pay (a lot less) early on.
Unless they knew that Immersion was a poor little nobody who had no chance of winning against them in court.

I don't buy that they didn't have enough money to sue Sony either...
How much money do you think Immersion had? How much do you think it takes to sue Sony and win (which may not have been their intention with their original blanket lawsuit)?

...the reason they got cash from MS is because they threatened to sue them...

...

MS was smart to later see this as a chance to put the screws on Sony, IMHO.
So which was it?
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Hitler Stole My Potato said:
I hope to god Sony will come to their senses and settle this.

If Immersion allows them to settle. Immersion does not have to allow them to settle, they can decide to allow it or decide not to, but it is their call.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Nerevar said:
This is pretty much the current Microsoft MO for dealing with patent lawsuits that affect multiple parties. Look at how they dealt with SCO. They gain unlimited access to the technology, the cash settlement is a pittance to them, and generally the establish a "poison pill" in their contracts that prevents others from settling. Furthermore, the cash that they're throwing away can be used by the other party to continue filing lawsuits against their competitors, and all in all MS avoids getting a bad reputation by pointing the finger at someone else for what many perceive as frivolous patent lawsuits. Worst case scenario, the start-up runs out of money and the lawsuits go away against competitors, but MS owns rights to the technologies and their competitors have to burn through cash supporting expensive court cases. I'm not saying it's right (in fact, it's pretty reprehensible, but then again, what decision made by lawyers isn't?), but it's a pretty crafty way for them to abuse the existing legal climate to their advantage. And the end result is that Sony is either forced to spend money on their own internal R&D to develop a rumble technology that doesn't infringe, pay up to Microsoft, or just remove the feature altogether.

Nice summary :).
 

Zaptruder

Banned
It's turned into an interesting thread, more so about businesses then actual gaming... but its how business decisions affect the end results we care about.

Snide bastards, the lot of them.
 
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