DeepEnigma
Gold Member
But that game is F2P tho.
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In MK11, it will cost you $6440 to buy every skin in the game without grinding
- Thread starter nani17
- Start date
But that game is F2P tho.
Jayjayhd34
Member
Running a company is about making profit. If people are willing to buy into this crap why wouldn't they do it. I don't see people screaming about thousands of android apps that do this. At the end day if wasn't a source of profit wouldn't be a problem.
You can't blame a company for wanting to make money (there sole purpose) but you can blame the muppets who buy this crap.
You can't blame a company for wanting to make money (there sole purpose) but you can blame the muppets who buy this crap.
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PhilipDoesMatter
Member
I'll buy it so to satisfy my luxury luster.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
There is a massive difference between a free or very cheap android title and a full 60 dollar AAA game.
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Jayjayhd34
Member
So because they charge 60 that means they should neglect a source of profit. That's not how you run a company.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
No, that is in reference to your question of "why aren't people as angry about android games".
Halo is Back
Member
AAA gaming industry at its finest
Lionel Richie
Member
Imagine paying 60 bucks for this game right now.
Jayjayhd34
Member
It's same practice buying digital goods that really shouldn't have any value and is probably what gave devs the idea to put these games. If these mobile games never took of and people didn't like wasting money we wouldn't be having conversation.
Your basically saying that because you paid 60 dollars they should hay let's just forget this source of profit but its OK to do it if the game was say a fiver.
So my question is what's the problem here because all I see is company trying to make money.
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EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Gamers have enabled developers selling them skins, loot boxes etc.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
People are more willing to forgive nickle and diming in a free/very cheap mobile game than a full 60 dollar purchase, especially when that full 60 dollar purchase has a history of not doing so. That is the point I am trying to make.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
This is kind of a misrepresentation. They do absolutely want to take you, psychologically, to this place, but it is a distortion of the practical reality.
This is how a sane person will look at the game:
1) Each character has a few different skins, and each of those skins has a bunch of color variants.
2) You probably only actually like 1-3 skin styles per character, aren't that picky about color, and have say, 5 characters you enjoy most and usually play with.
3) Just beat the tutorial for any character (basically perform a dozen of their moves) and you get a major skin variant. Continue to enjoy the game and you'll build up a bunch of gold (hundreds of thousands) really fast. 25k will unlock a character tower for your character which unlocks another new skin variant.
4) Check in on towers of time now and then to see if any skins you like are up for grabs. Last night there was a nice variant for Jade as a reward and I just had to beat one boss battle.
Looking at this, it isn't much different in terms of unlock requirements for a few different looks for your fav characters compared to other fighting games through the ages. Usually that is all someone really cares about, and after that point, being able to play towers or run around the Krypt is some random shit you can do.
Why is that not a big deal? Because honestly playing vs AI is relegated as "random shit" compared to fighting other people. It will never be super good, so just accessible fresh sorts of challenges and little rewards that unlock organically is about all you can do to keep it nice after an arcade run and little story for each character.
However I will concede some points:
1) What you do unlock naturally in a fairly natural amount of investment is less than you get from other fighting games, wherein color swaps are usually included. The game should be criticized for offering less. Does it really "offer less"? Yes, as a gamer should distinguish between what is an honest and straightforward offer ("do this, get this" on reasonable timeframe) and what is a disingenuous offer (long grind for RNG chance driven by FOMO).
2) The ability to buy it all straight out is now gone. Even if you're like "$6440? Sure, let's go" you can't. You have to wait for them to come around rotational access.
3) This means everything is FOMOd out the ass to try and make you feel like you "have to" nab that nice skin/color variant that catches your eye for krystals if you want that color variant assured rather than pray to the RNG gods for weeks on end.
4) Even if you don't take it all that seriously and it's just an optional means to every now and then pick up a new skin variant when it shows up, the towers/krypt system is just sooooo free mobile game af that it is annoying on presentation alone. It is a dumb hassle of hoops and you really feel it. The exact same challenges easily could have been presented, and in a similar mode, in a much more satisfying way, ways that were done in past MK games.
5) All of this, altogether, just feels very disrespectful. Instead of being able to relax and enjoy the world of Mortal Kombat, you just feel the company looking at you like some kind of mindless monkey trained to throw money at them for the shiny thing. The intent is FOMO, but the actual result is a deep sense of disrespect that is so over-the-top and so thoroughly woven through it that unless you just want to play the story then jump online, there will be no escape from feeling that disrespect. The entire process of towers/krypt feels like doing labor to continue watching more ads. It is a gross feeling.
So, what is the real problem with all this?
I'll tell you, it is not about content you get or don't get. It is not even about time you do or do not spend getting content. No product should be making the consumer feel disrespected.
Yes, the world is driven by money.
Yes, there are 500 superhero movies out because corporations hire people like you who enjoy superheroes to keep pumping them out.
Yes, the whole plan is essentially manipulation to get money from you.
Yet the presentation should always be "Here, for this money, freely enjoy the thing you like to enjoy" and not "Here are the systems of us emptying your wallet, and you laboring for it, to help us train you like a dog" because the wonder and escape of the crafted world is the most essential component of the product. So yes, while it is "just how things are" and while yes, the GOTY edition might unlock everything (I don't think it will tho) for far less than 6k, the game should rightly be criticized for getting in its own way by valuing manipulation over presentation and communicating rather directly to the player that the chance to empty your wallet is more important than you freely enjoying the world of MK, and furthermore that they actively want to make many hours of your life an unpleasant grind to achieve it.
This is the reason why direct MTX is much better if you are going to do MTX. Because it is like "Hey, want this bonus thing on top for $5?" and you are still in the same mode that you were in before. The crafted world is still otherworldly, the game is free to be just a game. Yet with these systems, it doesn't feel like a crafted world or a game anymore. It feels like a very elaborate system of unlocking letters on a page that eventually compose a "fuck you" letter of disrespect, and the disingenuous offer to drag yourself through the process of putting together that slow revelation feels like the most hateful way of saying "fuck you" that a person can possibly achieve from such a distanced position as a corporate seat.
This is why when a game does things with direct MTX, you'll get people going "Couldn't this just have been free like in the PS2 days?" or younger people going "Couldn't this be cheaper?" yet maybe a bundle going on sale is reasonable enough to them. However, when you turn your whole game into this mobile model, the response is anger and malicious actions like review bombing and the game dies. It is a "fuck you" in response, a stand for personal dignity, a communication of how the player wants relations between seller and consumer to be, an expression that they already labored for the money they buy the game with and that will be the one labor here.
The more honest you are with your content transaction, I think you can win people over time. Games like SFV and R6 Siege have found their supportive playerbase and among them and the release of a new season to buy feels like a little celebration. However, the more you try to be sneaky and trick the players into accepting the mobile model, the more insidious you will seem and the more angry players will be, because you have still subverted rather than enhance or expand a game world with integrity of fantasy apart from the transaction. Feeling the weight of mindgames with you should never be part of the game.
Edit: Ed Boon massively missing the point OR insidiously disingenuous with that tweet.
This is how a sane person will look at the game:
1) Each character has a few different skins, and each of those skins has a bunch of color variants.
2) You probably only actually like 1-3 skin styles per character, aren't that picky about color, and have say, 5 characters you enjoy most and usually play with.
3) Just beat the tutorial for any character (basically perform a dozen of their moves) and you get a major skin variant. Continue to enjoy the game and you'll build up a bunch of gold (hundreds of thousands) really fast. 25k will unlock a character tower for your character which unlocks another new skin variant.
4) Check in on towers of time now and then to see if any skins you like are up for grabs. Last night there was a nice variant for Jade as a reward and I just had to beat one boss battle.
Looking at this, it isn't much different in terms of unlock requirements for a few different looks for your fav characters compared to other fighting games through the ages. Usually that is all someone really cares about, and after that point, being able to play towers or run around the Krypt is some random shit you can do.
Why is that not a big deal? Because honestly playing vs AI is relegated as "random shit" compared to fighting other people. It will never be super good, so just accessible fresh sorts of challenges and little rewards that unlock organically is about all you can do to keep it nice after an arcade run and little story for each character.
However I will concede some points:
1) What you do unlock naturally in a fairly natural amount of investment is less than you get from other fighting games, wherein color swaps are usually included. The game should be criticized for offering less. Does it really "offer less"? Yes, as a gamer should distinguish between what is an honest and straightforward offer ("do this, get this" on reasonable timeframe) and what is a disingenuous offer (long grind for RNG chance driven by FOMO).
2) The ability to buy it all straight out is now gone. Even if you're like "$6440? Sure, let's go" you can't. You have to wait for them to come around rotational access.
3) This means everything is FOMOd out the ass to try and make you feel like you "have to" nab that nice skin/color variant that catches your eye for krystals if you want that color variant assured rather than pray to the RNG gods for weeks on end.
4) Even if you don't take it all that seriously and it's just an optional means to every now and then pick up a new skin variant when it shows up, the towers/krypt system is just sooooo free mobile game af that it is annoying on presentation alone. It is a dumb hassle of hoops and you really feel it. The exact same challenges easily could have been presented, and in a similar mode, in a much more satisfying way, ways that were done in past MK games.
5) All of this, altogether, just feels very disrespectful. Instead of being able to relax and enjoy the world of Mortal Kombat, you just feel the company looking at you like some kind of mindless monkey trained to throw money at them for the shiny thing. The intent is FOMO, but the actual result is a deep sense of disrespect that is so over-the-top and so thoroughly woven through it that unless you just want to play the story then jump online, there will be no escape from feeling that disrespect. The entire process of towers/krypt feels like doing labor to continue watching more ads. It is a gross feeling.
So, what is the real problem with all this?
I'll tell you, it is not about content you get or don't get. It is not even about time you do or do not spend getting content. No product should be making the consumer feel disrespected.
Yes, the world is driven by money.
Yes, there are 500 superhero movies out because corporations hire people like you who enjoy superheroes to keep pumping them out.
Yes, the whole plan is essentially manipulation to get money from you.
Yet the presentation should always be "Here, for this money, freely enjoy the thing you like to enjoy" and not "Here are the systems of us emptying your wallet, and you laboring for it, to help us train you like a dog" because the wonder and escape of the crafted world is the most essential component of the product. So yes, while it is "just how things are" and while yes, the GOTY edition might unlock everything (I don't think it will tho) for far less than 6k, the game should rightly be criticized for getting in its own way by valuing manipulation over presentation and communicating rather directly to the player that the chance to empty your wallet is more important than you freely enjoying the world of MK, and furthermore that they actively want to make many hours of your life an unpleasant grind to achieve it.
This is the reason why direct MTX is much better if you are going to do MTX. Because it is like "Hey, want this bonus thing on top for $5?" and you are still in the same mode that you were in before. The crafted world is still otherworldly, the game is free to be just a game. Yet with these systems, it doesn't feel like a crafted world or a game anymore. It feels like a very elaborate system of unlocking letters on a page that eventually compose a "fuck you" letter of disrespect, and the disingenuous offer to drag yourself through the process of putting together that slow revelation feels like the most hateful way of saying "fuck you" that a person can possibly achieve from such a distanced position as a corporate seat.
This is why when a game does things with direct MTX, you'll get people going "Couldn't this just have been free like in the PS2 days?" or younger people going "Couldn't this be cheaper?" yet maybe a bundle going on sale is reasonable enough to them. However, when you turn your whole game into this mobile model, the response is anger and malicious actions like review bombing and the game dies. It is a "fuck you" in response, a stand for personal dignity, a communication of how the player wants relations between seller and consumer to be, an expression that they already labored for the money they buy the game with and that will be the one labor here.
The more honest you are with your content transaction, I think you can win people over time. Games like SFV and R6 Siege have found their supportive playerbase and among them and the release of a new season to buy feels like a little celebration. However, the more you try to be sneaky and trick the players into accepting the mobile model, the more insidious you will seem and the more angry players will be, because you have still subverted rather than enhance or expand a game world with integrity of fantasy apart from the transaction. Feeling the weight of mindgames with you should never be part of the game.
Edit: Ed Boon massively missing the point OR insidiously disingenuous with that tweet.
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LittleBusters
Banned
As if this is the only problem.
j0hnnix
Member
This is incredibly well said. I've been a huge fan of MK , but this round , after being duped in MKX and then shortly the release of MKX Ultimate and tricked again into injustice 2 but holding back on getting the ultimate I decided not to purchase MK11 and said let's see what comes out and rented it, sure the fighting mechanics in the game is nearly perfect and the story is amazing that little bit of distrust that my previous purchase created has kept me from investing into MK11 fully. I might wait for a sale or the inevitable "ultimate" edition sale, I digress the shady nature of how the implemented this mobile mtx format sickens me and has deterred me from NRS. The only reason I see those in the fgc supporting it is a. they got it for free b. it's their job. Game is great as a rental but that's as far as it goes at this point. I don't see them "fixing" this mtx situation. They can keep the 100k free coins.
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SonGoku
Member
MTX & F2P mechanics have no place in paid games!!!
Your analogy is flawed, a closer comparison would be going to the gas station and paying for a full tank of gas, but the hose takes forever to fill the tank unless you pay extra money for faster fuel delivery.
Its funny actually when you compare video game industry practices to the outside world its appalling how bad gamers are getting rammed in the ass, and they got only themselves to blame for continuing supporting blatantly anti consumer practices and defending even!
I've never seen this phenomenon outside the gaming industry where consumers support and defend anti consumerists practices.
ding ding ding
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Agent_4Seven
Tears of Nintendo
They can shove this POS up their ass. Vote with your wallet people, cuz it is the one and only language these greedy pieces of shit understand.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
I knew it would be like this in some capacity, so I kept to the base game rather than premium, although I was thinking it would stay at the Injustice 2 level. I will be playing it casually and mostly online, so it doesn't affect me that strongly, but I can totally understand people who mostly play for single player being incredibly let down. I probably won't buy any more WB games until they drop this kind of shit because they've gotten real bad, like EA and Activision.
Even Maximilian Dood, who is basically the most fair and positive-minded guy in the FGC, was deeply let down and lamenting the systems quite extensively. Bear in mind he is a guy who knows what "earning it" is and has done so in more fighting games than most other people. This is also a guy who enjoyed the Monster Hunter World grind for like 200 hours on stream. So there is definitely something very different about the way you "earn it" in this game, and I hope I made it clear enough.
j0hnnix
Member
I agree. Max was upset but in Kombat Kast's stream was at one point saying there is no microtransactions. I was taken back when he said that. Even AngryJoe was frustrated at seeing the Krypt and realizing it was all RNG based. This all brings back memories of BF2 and Shadow of Mordor. NRS would still of made a good profit without implementing this misleading mtx. Komplete Krap
Rhazer Fusion
Member
That’s true, but I’m still very concerned about next generation. I have a feeling that most companies might gravitate towards more dlc and micro transactions in their games.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Now tonight he has been still going on and on about the problems with the krypt (because he is stuck there trying to get the Brutalities, the only thing he wants), and the biggest thing is the wasted time, since he'd even be willing just to buy out the krypt for real money like in MKX, even for $40. After a while he went off on this point:I agree. Max was upset but in Kombat Kast's stream was at one point saying there is no microtransactions. I was taken back when he said that. Even AngryJoe was frustrated at seeing the Krypt and realizing it was all RNG based. This all brings back memories of BF2 and Shadow of Mordor. NRS would still of made a good profit without implementing this misleading mtx. Komplete Krap
After this he compared to the systems Killer Instinct has (where you can basically earn everything for a character just by playing the character a few days), and someone brought up how you could directly buy things with source crystals in Injustice 2. After explaining/ranting more he said he wouldn't even care if he didn't love the game so much, because he really does. He said they listened to players so well and made everything else in the game so perfectly that it makes the suffering of this system so much worse.
This is what it looks like, a true fan, who has been been mega hype and spent a month going through the whole franchise with his friends who are also true fans, thoroughly loving everything about the game, suddenly hitting this stupid grind wall where they are running around a krypt and gimmicky consumable-requiring towers rather than playing online which is the main thing they got they game to enjoy.
This is what they do to the passionate enthusiasm of their biggest fans? Love of a thing should result in reward and more opportunity to expand enjoyment. That is how you sell products well. Memories of a game you love should not be tied up with a mindless droll of running around finding random chests filled with 95% trash you don't care about at all making zero perceivable progress toward particular things you want.
GenericUser
Member
RNG based loot in full priced games is cancer and needs to die. I don't get how people can defend this. If making games is so expensive nowadays that the devs are basically forced to include this shit, then the current form of making games needs to die. No way in hell should the customer have to endure this bullshit, it's not acceptable.
bukowski81
Member
This. If its just cosmetic skins I dont care, and I seriously cant understand while anyone does.
You grind until its not fun anymore, unlock the skins you like the most, and continue playing without worrying about grinding. If you are playing a game for the cosmetics you are doin it wrong IMO.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Very well said, thanks!
CyberPanda
Banned
This should be illegal.
jufonuk
not tag worthy
I think I agree I was thinking of getting this game but the more I read up I am not sure. I’m not paying full price for a game for it to pull some mobile gaming IAP shit.
AeonGaidenRaiden
Member
I remeber for MKX or was it MK9, they later released a $8 buy everything in the krypt. I wouldn't br surprised they do it again after the backlash.
betrayal
Banned
It's just a lurid and misleading headline
I don't see a problem here. Every 24h the store refreshes 5 seemingly random picked cosmetic items. It's just skins (or recolors), icons and borders that you also can get for free. Buying skins is optional. They don't put gameplay behind a paywall
If they wouldn't have implemented a store for cosmetics half of the people would have no reason to rage and the other half would cry because there's no ingame store for cosmetics.
I don't see a problem here. Every 24h the store refreshes 5 seemingly random picked cosmetic items. It's just skins (or recolors), icons and borders that you also can get for free. Buying skins is optional. They don't put gameplay behind a paywall
If they wouldn't have implemented a store for cosmetics half of the people would have no reason to rage and the other half would cry because there's no ingame store for cosmetics.
Damien Crowley
Member
First: Maximillian is right. put prices on the costumes directly, fuck the shitty ass 30fps krypt!
Second: the real crime is, that you have just 5 costume slots per character. What do i want with 60 skins when i can only save 5 for direct use? MK11 sits on a 8TB-Drive with about half the space free, give me more slots, you slots!
Second: the real crime is, that you have just 5 costume slots per character. What do i want with 60 skins when i can only save 5 for direct use? MK11 sits on a 8TB-Drive with about half the space free, give me more slots, you slots!
Is this real already? *hope*
klosos
Member
you know when i as a customer feel i am appreciated i have no problem throwing down some cash for cosmetic items , take Path Of Exile on PC?console its a free to play game who put out consistently great content every few months .Now because of that i must of spent £200+ on supporting the game and the company Grinding Gear games , mostly buying supporter packs and other add on like stash space nothing game breaking and mostly cosmetic.
But this shit here is ridiculous , however nothing will be done , Gamers will complain then forget about it when the next carbon copy fighter Nether realm make gets released .
But this shit here is ridiculous , however nothing will be done , Gamers will complain then forget about it when the next carbon copy fighter Nether realm make gets released .
KiteGr
Member
So, Ed Boon responded.
Whether You pay directly with Money or Gems, or indirectly to avoid some insane amount of grind and/or timers to eventually unlock them, you'll still be paying. Most freemium models leave some traces of hope that you can get something without paying!
Enygger_Tzu
Banned
So, Ed Boon responded.
So, how much money do we need, ED? Can you please correct us?
Is $100, $200, $500, $1000 on this $60 product, just how much? Spill the numbers!
Eh, no.
What's so harmful about completely optional things that you never have to buy if you don't want to?
KiteGr
Member
I think in MK11 these things have stats and you NEED to get the good ones.
But apparently the OP is mistaken and you don't pay for them directly.
Instead they have some ridiculous grind that pretty much require boosters.
RedVIper
Banned
Designing a game around girding so people are more inclined to buy these things is kind of annoying.
It's fine if you don't care, but annoying non the less.
Woo-Fu
Banned
I think this is great when talking about cosmetics. The goal shouldn't be to get all of them, the goal should be to get enough so that every player doesn't look like a twinkie. If you make it so everybody can get everything relatively quickly they still end up looking like twinkies because most people will wear whatever the community decides is cool. Half the players in div2 are sporting a red fuzzy kangol ffs.
I think it's pretty poor game design though and bad form if the cost of having all the content in any given game is 100s or even 1000s of dollars.
Having so many character variants (I think they have 60 per character) and then having them all locked behind microtransactions or ridiculous grind is just shitty.
In a sense it moves the focus of the game away from a fun or challenging experience that grants rewards to an absolute chore that you can pay to avoid.
In something like this my preference would be that they do something like unlock one alternative skin for each character upon kompletion of story mode. Then have an additional skin unlocked for beating the regular tower for each character on normal, then a skin for hard, then a skin for very hard.
At least that way everything is only locked behind gameplay.
The "Towers of Time" just seems like an absolute pisstake waste of time.
I don't disagree with grind but I do think there should be some kind of cap on how much you need to grind and/or pay to get everything in game.
I'd be more open to microtransactions if it was something like "buy the DLC and get one exclusive skin for each character".
I think having literally hundreds of skins in the game is WAY beyond reasonable and having them locked behind crazy grind times or microtransactions is just not a good look, to me.
3390 hours or 6440 bucks to unlock all of the ingame content is overkill.
If the game were free to play then I could maybe change my views on that.