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In my opinion, lag on the NES Classic makes games unplayable

yyr

Member
Most of the new TVs my friends have purchased have this ridiculous filter on by default that basically calculates the "in between" frames in films, or anything else that is not 60fps already. It gives everything the appearance of 60fps. Of course, it isn't perfect, so you can often tell during camera pans, etc. that it isn't actually a 60fps source. This is of course processed on the fly, which takes time, and almost certainly adds a delay.

If you disable all of this sort of thing, it should feel more natural. You can also look for a "PC Mode" as mentioned above, which usually disables all of that crap automatically. But also, some modern TVs just have lag. Go to rtings.com and look at the comparisons there for more info.
 
i think people are not noticing the lag because it actually handles it very well with the exception being punch out and even that is still good. I can beat White Tyson without getting hit on my original Nintendo hooked up to a CRT, but with the classic I get knocked down at least twice every time because you have to know the timing instead of relying on the flash of the character. I notice it on mega man as well but it is not that bad.. I have played the classic on at least 10 tvs so far and haven't noticed an improvement or it being worse.
 
I have an AVS and just got a Classic yesterday. Just did back-to-back tests. May have an explanation here. My findings so far:

On a Samsung LED HDTV *without* enabling game mode, AVS is playable but feels a little off and Classic is noticeably lagged.

With game mode enabled, AVS feels perfect to me, Classic feels good but slightly lagged.

I tested this speedrunning Ninja Gaiden and Super Mario Bros, which I can do at a pretty good level but not competitive to world records. I also tested Zelda, for which some of the tricks (screen scroll and block clip) require frame precision.

My takeaway (without having any way to measure it, how do people measure ms lag anyway?) is that AVS is lag-free and Classic does introduce some lag. If you compound that by not enabling game mode on some TVs, Classic becomes noticeably unplayable while AVS is still playable. I would imagine that some of the latest TVs have so little lag even without game mode that both Classic and AVS can be playable without 'feeling' the lag, further making this issue a bit hit-or-miss and explaining people's different reactions.

Would love to hear more thoughts from folks that can compare one versus the other.

I've been playing on a Classic NES Mini, AVS, Analogue NT, and stock NES with a Framemeister all on the same TV this year and the only one where I noticed even a negligible amount of lag was the stock NES with a Framemeister.
 

Durante

Member
There are a lot of personal experiences in this thread. Has anyone actually directly measured the input response of a "real" NES vs. the NES classic?

I guess a true 1:1 comparison is difficult due to the different outputs.
 

jimboton

Member
I have an AVS and just got a Classic yesterday. Just did back-to-back tests. May have an explanation here. My findings so far:

On a Samsung LED HDTV *without* enabling game mode, AVS is playable but feels a little off and Classic is noticeably lagged.

With game mode enabled, AVS feels perfect to me, Classic feels good but slightly lagged.

I tested this speedrunning Ninja Gaiden and Super Mario Bros, which I can do at a pretty good level but not competitive to world records. I also tested Zelda, for which some of the tricks (screen scroll and block clip) require frame precision.

My takeaway (without having any way to measure it, how do people measure ms lag anyway?) is that AVS is lag-free and Classic does introduce some lag. If you compound that by not enabling game mode on some TVs, Classic becomes noticeably unplayable while AVS is still playable. I would imagine that some of the latest TVs have so little lag even without game mode that both Classic and AVS can be playable without 'feeling' the lag, further making this issue a bit hit-or-miss and explaining people's different reactions.

Would love to hear more thoughts from folks that can compare one versus the other.
Your findings make perfect sense, the AVS is hardware emulation (should add no lag) vs the Classic that's software emulation.
 

cakefoo

Member
I've seen a video review that showed pretty noticeable audio latency from the Classic. Sound cues can be important in a game like Punchout, not just for reacting to opponents, but also for finding a punching rhythm. I know it's not exactly what we're talking about in here, but just thought it might add to the discussion.
 
Admit it, you were all watch this I'm a pro but failed and then blamed it on the television.

It's interesting how a few milliseconds of lag can reduce me from an expert speed runner at Super Mario Bros. to a slower, more cautious styled of player like when I played the game as a child.
 
I played NES on a CRT until about 2 years ago when I had to dump it. I'm not saying there isn't ANY lag, but what is there is imperceptible to my eyes and I play a lot of NES. Calling it unplayable has to be the fault of the TV.
Agreed. I would only call it unplayable on my "newer" VIZIO when it was not on Game Mode. The Classic was definitely playable on Game Mode and on my older Samsung.
 
There are a lot of personal experiences in this thread. Has anyone actually directly measured the input response of a "real" NES vs. the NES classic?

I guess a true 1:1 comparison is difficult due to the different outputs.
Yeah, I have asked about this in the other threads around release: a Digital Foundry-type comparison (focusing on control responsiveness vs. framerates/visuals).
 

Rellik

Member
All those people saying zero input lag lol. I'd love to know what kind of magical TV you guys are using.

OP you should have been using PC mode anyway. That usually reduces lag on most TVs. I wouldn't touch a game on my TV without the input set to PC.
 

inner-G

Banned
All those people saying zero input lag lol. I'd love to know what kind of magical TV you guys are using
I play classic games on a Sony Trinotron CRT TV.

There is absolutely noticeable lag on an HDTV.

That said, the NES Classic also adds it's own lag, as well as other things like audio timing errors that can throw you off, or change how games feel.
 
Aren't some games even different in their degree of input lag? (I know Mega Man 2 has some audio latency that's not as bad as in other NES Classic games.)

The whole thing's a mess.
 

99Luffy

Banned
Usually people get input lag because they have that stupid soap opera effect on. Turn off automotion and it should be fine
 

The Hermit

Member
What TV are you using? Again, I tried multiple setups and other people noticed it as well.

Not saying I don't believe everyone saying they have zero lag...I just don't see how I bad lucked into testing 4 unusable TVs.

most TVs have shit lag and new games are adapted to that.

Gaf recent threads lead me to buy the KS8000, which in game mode has around 20 ms lag. I can still notice in games like SF, but its totally playable.

also those 120/240hz mode that smooth the image creates new frames, so the lag input skyrocket to something like 100ms.

EDIT: here's the link to rtings about input lag. http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag.
Check the models of that TV you tested and which mode.
 
I notice lag on anything that's not the real hardware on a CRT. HDTVs vary wildly in terms of input lag, and almost none of them can provide a good twitch based game experience.

People say there's no lag for them when they play a NES Classic, but I guarantee if they played, say, Zelda II on real hardware on a CRT they would instantly notice something magical about the instant response.

This isn't the issue though. The OP was implying the NES Classic itself is responsible for "unplayable" input lag, whereas I'm saying it's the TVs that are responsible for input lag, and though it's present on almost all TVs, many are far from 'unplayable'.
 
most TVs have shit lag and new games are adapted to that.

Gaf recent threads lead me to buy the KS8000, which in game mode has around 20 ms lag. I can still notice in games like SF, but its totally playable.

EDIT: also those 120/240hz mode that smooth the image creates new frames, so the lag input skyrocket to something like 100ms.

Yep. Most new games made for high-end consoles aren't that demanding of your reflexes or precision timing. At least not to the extent of NES games. That's why most people don't even notice lag in their games, because the games are made to accommodate for the modern TVs. But even those modern games would feel a lot better on a TV with lower latency lag.
 
I have an Asus PG279Q gaming monitor, which has 3.25ms of input lag, which is basically nothing. About as low as it gets. The NES Classic is perfect on that display.

I also have a 55" Samsung KS8000 4k TV, with 22ms of input lag, which is excellent for a TV. Also had zero problems beating all the Super Mario games on that display. No detectable lag.

It's a problem with the TVs you tested on.
 
This isn't the issue though. The OP was implying the NES Classic itself is responsible for "unplayable" input lag, whereas I'm saying it's the TVs that are responsible for input lag, and though it's present on almost all TVs, many are far from 'unplayable'.

It's an emulation box, of course it introduces lag. That's part of the deal with software emulation. OP was commenting on the experience, and the NES Classic goes hand in hand with HDTVs. Both contribute to the problem.
 

Koren

Member
So it looks like I'll need to use a PC monitor rather than a television in order to get no lag.
Well, monitors usually have far less lag than TV sets, indeed. But there's good and bad monitors and sets.

If you're sensitive to this (I am, a lot), you'll want to check the lag on websites that take the time to measure it (usually with Leo Bodnar's device).

Here is a good ressource, but they don't cover all sets, far from it. You won't notice lag on sets tag "Excellent" (there's unfortunately not many of those)
http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/
 
For me my 4k TV in gaming mode has no noticeable lag with the NES Classic - Vizio d55u. I chose that model specifically for its super low gaming lag, 13.5 ms. Of course I'm no master of speed runs, though I can occasionally beat Castlevania without dying.
 

Koren

Member
It's an emulation box, of course it introduces lag.
That's not a given. In fact, an emulator can have less lag than the original hardware (since it can do all computations in a shorter time), but I'm not sure I want something that tweak the original timings.

A good device, even if it's using emulation, won't have more lag than the original product. Why would it have?
 
Sorry to burst your bubbles GAF but there is input lag. It's very very small though and hard to notice unless you are really used to how the games played on a CRT. Punch Out if pretty noticeable for me.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Sorry to burst your bubbles GAF but there is input lag. It's very very small though and hard to notice unless you are really used to how the games played on a CRT. Punch Out if pretty noticeable for me.
Was just about to post this. The games still play great but there is input lag inherent in all of these flat panel displays. It can be very low but it is there.

Haven't tested the mini itself but it's primarily the TVs themselves introducing lag.
 
That's not a given. In fact, an emulator can have less lag than the original hardware (since it can do all computations in a shorter time), but I'm not sure I want something that tweak the original timings.

A good device, even if it's using emulation, won't have more lag than the original product. Why would it have?

I've never heard of anything like this. Do you have any examples?
 

dock

Member
I'm using a Sony W8 from 2014 which has about 20ms input lag and is apparently one of the least laggy TVs from that year. I remember finding Rhythm Paradise unplayable on a friend's laggy TV but amazing on my own.
 

Tain

Member
Was just about to post this. The games still play great but there is input lag inherent in all of these flat panel displays. It can be very low but it is there.

Haven't tested the mini itself but it's primarily the TVs themselves introducing lag.

I'd be very surprised if the emulation itself didn't also introduce at least a frame of lag, but it's a tough thing to measure due to the methods of video output, as Durante said.
 

Tain

Member
That's not a given. In fact, an emulator can have less lag than the original hardware (since it can do all computations in a shorter time), but I'm not sure I want something that tweak the original timings.

A good device, even if it's using emulation, won't have more lag than the original product. Why would it have?

Depends on how the video signals are adapted. NES actually output video at 60.1hz. You have to adapt that to modern HDTV standards somehow, which generally involves some double or triple buffering. Lag.
 
I've never heard of anything like this. Do you have any examples?

It's just the way emulators work - the emulator is emulating everything the system does, from input to video output. In theory in a perfect emulator there should be no input lag at all, the emulated system should be reading the inputs at the exact same rate the original system did and acting on them the same rate, so there's no reason for there to be any lag unless the lag is created by the controller itself, such as a wireless controller or something. If an emulator isn't perfect, it will read the controller inputs as fast as the computer it is running on can do and send those to the emulated input circuits, which could end up with less input lag as the original system (and possibly cause some emulation compatibility issues with games that expect inputs to occur at a certain rate). Of course it's also possible for an operating system (such as Windows) to introduce input lag, but in theory the PC running Windows should be fast enough to deal with this in the emulator.
 

Acerac

Banned
It's interesting how a few milliseconds of lag can reduce me from an expert speed runner at Super Mario Bros. to a slower, more cautious styled of player like when I played the game as a child.

The funny part is the more casual player might not notice the difference at all.
 

hemo memo

Gold Member
DS/DS/BB had fram-pacing issues but we don't blame the game when we lose op do we? You know the famous quote "git gud"

It's a joke obviously
 
I once had a Panasonic which, outside of game mode, managed to introduce something to the order of 120ms of input lag. Compare that to my current X800D or previous W800B, which you can see the Rtings input lag tests for yourself... night and day. Some sets out there are really bad.
 
It's just the way emulators work - the emulator is emulating everything the system does, from input to video output. In theory in a perfect emulator there should be no input lag at all, the emulated system should be reading the inputs at the exact same rate the original system did and acting on them the same rate, so there's no reason for there to be any lag unless the lag is created by the controller itself, such as a wireless controller or something. If an emulator isn't perfect, it will read the controller inputs as fast as the computer it is running on can do and send those to the emulated input circuits, which could end up with less input lag as the original system (and possibly cause some emulation compatibility issues with games that expect inputs to occur at a certain rate). Of course it's also possible for an operating system (such as Windows) to introduce input lag, but in theory the PC running Windows should be fast enough to deal with this in the emulator.

Do you have an example of a PC running any particular emulator that runs a game 1:1 with the original hardware so that there is no input lag? Any results from a side by side test, maybe on youtube?
 

Koren

Member
I've never heard of anything like this. Do you have any examples?
I've played with SNES emulators source code in the past...

It's hard to provide simple examples, but it's not that hard to explain.

Fondamentally, an emulator keep the state of the original console, and perform the very same operations. For the emulator to work properly, the processor that run the emulator must be able to do the same operations in less time than the original, even if it doesn't have the instructions for it (for example, SNES has special video modes that allow sprites and background tiling. A PC don't have specific mode for this, any "automatic" operation on images has to be recreated with OpenGL or similar set of commands).

That's the easy part of emulation.

The hard part comes from timings. Assuming you have a PC "powerful enough" (we'll discuss that later), each instruction/operation is done faster on the PC than on the regular hardware. So the PC has to "wait" the exact time so that it doesn't run faster than the original hardware.

For example :

Code:
Original
----A----|---B---|-----C-----|--D--|-----E-----|...

PC :
--A--|-B-|  wait |---C---|-D-| wait|---E---|...

You can't do this for all instructions. IIRC, ZSNES synchronize something like a million time per second to get proper emulation, and that's still not perfect. Because of higher speed in PC, you'll get some bugs, which are circumvented by recognizing the game and tweaking the timings. It's even worse when the PC has to emulate several chips: if one emulation is in advance on another one, you'll get bugs, so you need to synchronize everything all the time.

Better emulators like BSNES synchronize one hundred million times per second, so you won't see any difference. Nearly all instructions are processed exactly at the correct time.


Now, about input lag in console. There's input lag in any game/console, because it's the time between the press of a button, and the moment the image is sent to TV. Since input readings are done at specific times, and they have to be processed, you'll always have input lag.

For example, an old game could do a single input read for each vertical blanking of the screen, so the input lag would be something like 15ms. Modern games have double, triple buffering, input filtering, etc., and input lag has skyrocketed (it's over 100ms in some games, like GTA for example... that's the game lag, not the display lag).


Now, the fun part. There's lag in old games because the processors were slow. You had to compute the motion of the sprite on screen after the button press, and before displaying the result. It takes time.

By tweaking the timings, you can move the "wait" states in the emulation just after the blanking and before the button press.

Again, the example. For eample, A is input reading, B, C and D are computations, E is displaying
Code:
Original
----A----|---B---|-----C-----|--D--|-----E-----|...

PC (normal) :
--A--|-B-|  wait |---C---|-D-| wait|---E---|...
The input lag is the time between A and E, and in this proper emulation, the input lag is the same in emulation and in original hardware.

But imagine you're doing this:

Code:
PC (tweaked) :
    wait    |--A--|-B-|---C---|-D-|---E---|...
in this case, the input lag is lower in the emulation, because the input readings have been done later, which is allowed by the fact that the computations are done faster.

It's not that hard to implement in emulators, you just play with the synchronization steps, letting the PC think it's later than it really is in the ms just after the V-blank.

That being said, you'll introduce plently of bugs (some strange ones). That's definitively not proper emulation, but technically, you'll reduce input lag. Should you solve all the strange bugs introduced by this trick, you could improve the response time of a game.



In fact, I've even worked on negative input lag (meaning the game react "before" you press)... Of course, there's glitches, but the idea is that you have a thread that try to predict your inputs in advance, so that it can display the results in advance. Should it fail, you run the last milliseconds in another thread that recompute the last milliseconds. You'll have a glitch on screen, when the software correct the error, but except in those moments, the game actually run before you ^_^ That's the kind of tricks many online games do to hide the latency (when the error of the prediction is corrected, you see opponents doing things they shouldn't be able to do, like running faster for a time, till they reach their correct position, or even warp).
 

Koren

Member
Depends on how the video signals are adapted. NES actually output video at 60.1hz. You have to adapt that to modern HDTV standards somehow, which generally involves some double or triple buffering. Lag.
I don't dispute this... (I think we would have heard if Nes Classis was using triple buffering, but I'm willing to believe there's some kind of lag... Since I don't own it, because of availability I can't speak for it).

I was talking about the fact that emulation don't *have* to be laggy. Especially with some modern techniques like G-Sync and/or when you have fine control over the OS...
 

nubbe

Member
I don't notice any Input lag, it actually feels better compared to the Wii U

Modern TV's use so much post-processing, you need to use the Game Mode.
 
EDIT: To clarify, on a television, not a computer monitor.

I received the NES Classic as a birthday/Christmas gift and didn't open it until we were with friends and family over Christmas.

Even with game mode on (and we tested multiple TVs), there is a noticeable lag. Mega Man 2, Ninja Gaiden, Castlevania, Punch-Out...where precision is key, the NES Classic falls way short.

Convenience and nostalgia can't erase 30 years of muscle memory.

Game mode isn't enough! I experienced this on a genuine NES at sister's house while playing with the nephews. It's no wonder they have no skill. It was completely unplayable.

I went in and turned game mode on, still awful. Then I went deeper, advanced settings, whatever, combed the menus for options. There are filters still turned on to reduce static fuzz or some such thing. Turned all that shot off that looked suspect, and it was perfectly playable.
 

Madao

Member
i think that getting your TV down to 1 frame of lag (~17-20ms) is good enough to not feel lag for most people. only the super precise stuff feels laggy at this point like fighting games.

I don't notice any Input lag, it actually feels better compared to the Wii U

Modern TV's use so much post-processing, you need to use the Game Mode.

the NES emulation on Wii U is pretty bad. on the gamepad you have like 2 frames of lag, which would make the NES Classic better in that aspect.
 
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