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Indie > 'AAA'
- Thread starter Toma
- Start date
More_Badass
Member
How many indie games have you played?
But honestly there are very few indie games I'd ever say could stack up in terms of influence and just overall appeal to see a spot on a list of best of all time. Maybe they're not timeless, like MGS, Portal, etc. are, but many many of them are just good fun games that really deserve to be played. And there are some that have that extra something, that hard-to-describe quality, be it visual or narrative or gameplay, that make them excellent top-notch experiences.
These days that's pretty much coming from the indie side.
For the people asking about distinctions between classes of games, I think the lines are (or should be) more blurred. I blame the store structure of last generation consoles for creating the perceived chasm between 'indie games' and everything else in gamers minds. The storefronts were segregated (XBLA, WiiWare etc) in a way that split 'smaller' indie games from 'retail' games, which made the indie games themselves seem like they had to fit a mold and be a throwaway product that consumers should buy inbetween big AAA releases.
On Steam there was never that distinction, you'd have stuff like Legend of Grimrock and Amnesia right next to the latest CoD or Elder Scrolls release on the storefront. They were just 'games', not 'indie games'. I believe that's a reason why PC indie stuff started to overshadow what was happening on the 360 back during that period, and why indie stuff on PC seems so much more indepth than it does on consoles now. I think the console manufacturers now see this too looking at Minecraft's success.
i can barely bring myself to play big budget games anymore just because of bloat. an indie title can (and usually must) focus on one thing and do it as well as possible, large studio games try to fill themselves out to fit a certain amount of playtime and stuff enough different activities to appeal to whatever broad demographic they've decided to target. i tried to play assassin's creed 4 a few weeks ago and lasted about 4 hours before i realized that nothing i was doing was inherently fun and then fired up spelunky.
knowing specifically what they want to do and doing it well is a limitation and a luxury for indie games, and it's why i love them.
knowing specifically what they want to do and doing it well is a limitation and a luxury for indie games, and it's why i love them.
i have only one, it's cave story. but yes, it's not on my top ten
You dont have to chose a side, and you dont get the point of the discussion that I just explained again 2 posts above you and in the lengthy OP. Feel free to move along.
I would easily include Dwarf Fortress, SpaceChem and Frozen Synapse among my favourite games of all time. If we are talking GOTY 2013, there would be plenty more Indies on my list that you might not even have heard of. I really think its just a matter of how many Indies you have played, because its basically an outright impossible task for most people to work through the thousands of decent indies every year to find the 50 great ones among hundreds of good ones.
Every year sees plenty of Indies that would deserve to pop up on GOTY lists, but they dont because you simply dont know about them. Most of the people that actually DO play lots of Indies would probably agree that there are plenty of worthwhile and great experiences to be had that are equally as influential and important to them personally as the big budget games.
mcfishstick
Member
Yeah the pc seems to be the platform that allows smaller devs. As much as some people hate early access, the game I know look forward to most include Kerbal Space Programme, War for the Overworld, and Maia which are all Indie games and not retro 2d platformers.
There are also a number of games that are made by independent developers like Divinity: Dragon Commander that look great graphically. The problem seems to be that the term 'indie' is only associated with 2d retro games, rather than independently-developed games.
I really think there are a few more problems with the common understanding than only the 2D retro platformer phallacy, but I guess I wont need to repeat my OP again here
This man speaks the truth. I enjoy some indie games but not all, same goes for AAA games. They are different types of games, different scales, but they are games and that's what I singed up for.
No I actually read that one.
And I don't agree that if an indie game is great it will get ignored. There are a bunch of amazing indie games that do get a lot of showcase.
Now if you're talking about "underrated gems", then there are plenty of them both indie and AAA, so even though I agree I still don't get the divide that you're trying to create.
If this is a thread about bringing people's attention to indie games, then I'm all for it, but I think the monthly threads we have here do a way better job of it, by showing that every month there is a threadful of great games worthy of interest.
I personnally don't get it when people try to promote something by downplaying something different.
"Indie>AAA". I don't see why you start your love letter by muddying it with a hate message. It just lessens your point imo, and it's all the more annoying because in the end I agree with what you're trying to do.
But maybe I'm still missing the point, and I don't want to turn this thread into a 1v1 argument so I'll probably stop here, but I hope you understand my concern.
This thread was made right after I started the monthly Indie threads, also as a point to make people aware of the Indie discussion. And yeah, you do have a point about the title, which I explained in the first few paragraphs of the OP. Indies offer something big budget games dont, thats all it means, but was purposely held general to keep people posting in here. Its easier to keep a thread alive with a sensationalist title. It also makes it easy to point out who actually read the OP. *shrug*
Oh and you are wrong about "great" Indie games always getting attention. From what we observed in the Indie thread, its a really low number of great games getting attention, and then those games arent even necessarily the best among the Indies in that genre, they just happened to create the most media buzz for some very lucky reason. I'll put up a Best Indies 2013 thread later this month with games we voted on in the Indie thread. Plenty of games in there that ARE great and arent even close to getting the attention they deserve. A few examples would be Factorio or Full Bore, which are easily on my overall GOTY list last year.
Edit:
And another thing: I do agree that the monthly Indie threads are better suited to show the love and appreciation for Indie Games. What these threads dont do, is explaining common phallacies about Indie Games that dont go away for some stupid reason. I still read plenty of people who are sick of Indies because they cant stand 2D platforming games anymore... I mean... what?
I used to be a big fan of AAA games. Always bought games full price when they came out, perused Game Informer to figure out what The Next Big Thing was. And whatever I bought on my PS2/PS3/360, I was usually happy with.
That started to change around 2010. I started seeing more and more of the same thing come out from AAA developers, and I was feeling fatigued. The Next Big Thing didn't excite me as it once did, and I wondered whether I was simply growing out of gaming. I had shot so many Covenant, plugged all these Locust holes, murdered an entire line of gods... I felt numb toward some of the franchises I once loved, and AAA wasn't really providing me with anything new that really got my attention.
In 2011, I decided to build my own gaming PC. After that, things changed dramatically. I was introduced to all these insanely clever games that brought the passion back. And year after year, the indie scene has continued to surprise and astound me. Throughout the entirety of 2013, I played an embarrassment of gaming riches, and only 2-3 of them happened to be made by a AAA developer/publisher.
I have a PS4 sitting in the corner with 5 AAA games, but I imagine most of my future purchases for it will be indie, too. In little over a month, I've dug into OlliOlli, Octodad, Nidhogg, and Broken Age. This, week, I am over-the-moon excited for Jazzpunk (everything I've seen of it bores into my pleasure centers like heat-seeking drills). I have Quadilateral Cowboy, No Man's Sky, and so much more to look forward to in the coming months and years.
I'm the happiest I've ever been with gaming, and I owe it to indies.
That started to change around 2010. I started seeing more and more of the same thing come out from AAA developers, and I was feeling fatigued. The Next Big Thing didn't excite me as it once did, and I wondered whether I was simply growing out of gaming. I had shot so many Covenant, plugged all these Locust holes, murdered an entire line of gods... I felt numb toward some of the franchises I once loved, and AAA wasn't really providing me with anything new that really got my attention.
In 2011, I decided to build my own gaming PC. After that, things changed dramatically. I was introduced to all these insanely clever games that brought the passion back. And year after year, the indie scene has continued to surprise and astound me. Throughout the entirety of 2013, I played an embarrassment of gaming riches, and only 2-3 of them happened to be made by a AAA developer/publisher.
I have a PS4 sitting in the corner with 5 AAA games, but I imagine most of my future purchases for it will be indie, too. In little over a month, I've dug into OlliOlli, Octodad, Nidhogg, and Broken Age. This, week, I am over-the-moon excited for Jazzpunk (everything I've seen of it bores into my pleasure centers like heat-seeking drills). I have Quadilateral Cowboy, No Man's Sky, and so much more to look forward to in the coming months and years.
I'm the happiest I've ever been with gaming, and I owe it to indies.
You just reminded me why I started the monthly Indie Game threads. I suffered the same fatigue as you did and randomly played a game that made me feel awe and wonder like the first games did that I played as a kid.
Most people complaining about gaming fatigue or feeling that they are "getting too old", really need to try looking in different places.
More_Badass
Member
Very true
- An intimate transparent relationship between developer and community. Compare Screenshot Saturday and TIGForums to how AAA development works
- Seemingly endless depth of originality and diversity
- Freedom to express ideas, themes, values, narratives that just wouldn't be profitable or perhaps be deemed unfit for mainstream gamers. They can tackle the themes and concepts that AAA games can't or won't
FriedConsole
Banned
The only thing I hate is indie game hipster snobs. I don't give a crap about the label a game has. When I was in my teens and twenties, I would have cared. So much of what people that age is consuming the right media because you want to have a cultivated image to other people. You tell people you listen to the coolest indie music and indie films. But when you get to your thirties you stop giving a crap. I can tell people I like Angry Birds, Madden and Call of Duty because I no longer care what my media "says" about me. I like a lot of indie games but I won't pretend to like one to seem cool. If you genuine think Papers Please is a fun game instead of it making you look cool for playing, that is great but if you are doing it for an "image" you will realize you are wasting your time in your 30's because no one really gives a crap.
KimonoNoNo
Member
I suppose I'm more of a niche-gamer as fare as tastes go.
As those niches are being squeezed out of "AAA" retail games, I've gravitated more to the downloadable Xbla/Psn style games. Whether those games are classed as "Indie" is very much up for debate, especially as big publishers and platform holders are going most of the funding.
Also the thought of "AAA" games becoming infested with Mattricks (Micro-Transactions) leaves a very bad taste on my mouth.
As those niches are being squeezed out of "AAA" retail games, I've gravitated more to the downloadable Xbla/Psn style games. Whether those games are classed as "Indie" is very much up for debate, especially as big publishers and platform holders are going most of the funding.
Also the thought of "AAA" games becoming infested with Mattricks (Micro-Transactions) leaves a very bad taste on my mouth.
More_Badass
Member
I don't give a crap about what people think. Hell, I play CoD and Battlefield for the single player and never touch multiplayer
I don't play indies because of some stupid hipster image thing. I play indies because they're genuinely good games that are worth playing.
(I'm only 21 btw)
Where did you get the impression that people play indies to foster some kind of hipster image? At least in threads and forums I frequent, I've never got that impression
Anybody who was ever a fan of Star Trek has undoubtedly had at least some vague notion that damn - sure would rock to have a game involving space fights like this. And a hoard of licensed products have tried to do exactly that - and failed. FTL succeeds by taking an entirely new approach rather than trying to shoehorn Star Trek into a sort of Wing Commander style game. And and also it's challenging/skill based, has perma death, a wide variety of ships, crew and a huge degree of customization in viable ship loadouts.
Beyond that I think the game is difficult to describe since it's revolutionary as opposed to evolutionary. If you've played a shooter from 20 years ago then I could easily describe the the-next-big-shooter-thing of the year to you in relative terms. Even if it adds a few gimmicks, you'd have a pretty good idea of what's fun about it. You can't really do that with revolutionary titles. Wolf3d, for instance, started the whole shooter obsession. But at the time it was a novel concept. It was a mix of the twitchy real time combat of arcade games mixed in with the turn based faux 3d RPG games of the time. We all know now that it's a really fun formula, but at the time it'd have been pretty difficult to describe how or why it would be fun if somebody didn't intuitively agree that running around in 3d making stuff go boom would probably be fun.
FriedConsole
Banned
Criticize a indie game you get back "Go play Call of Duty". If you spent anytime on a gaming forum you know that has been said many times. That is stupid snobbery.
n00bsauce87
Member
Since I just do console gaming, I only see the positives of indie games because only the good ones have been vetted twice (once through Steam and the 2nd time through whoever the gatekeepers are for Playstation and Xbox). So I'm going to always be in support of them. Even if I don't like the game itself (like Don't Starve, more like it's not the game for me, I like it), I know that it's a quality game. I don't have to wonder if it's crap.
Also, waiting for the console release of said game isn't a bother since I have games to keep me occupied. Which pales into comparison to the backlog stories I hear from people who use Steam. I can only hope this trend increases because I win every time.
Also, waiting for the console release of said game isn't a bother since I have games to keep me occupied. Which pales into comparison to the backlog stories I hear from people who use Steam. I can only hope this trend increases because I win every time.
Such a comment would be stupid, I agree. You wont find that in the Indie thread though. If you feel like you want to discuss the merits and flaws of an Indie game, you are welcome over here:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=761651
More_Badass
Member
Ah I see. I always saw that as the indie equivalent of "It's all 2D pixel platformers!". I.e. those people are probably trolls and shouldn't be given much mind. If someone's only response to criticism is "Go play CoD" then they're really contributing nothing to the discussion in any shape or form
This this this. I could not survive on AAA alone. it gets pretty bland, and there is only so much suspension of disbelief I can offer the deluge of self-serious deus ex machina after deus ex machina story driven trite that is AAA gaming. I definitely was "getting too old". Indie games are an important thing to me.
Finally someone gets it. Some of the more ambitious games I've seen over the years have come from titles that would technically be called mid-range. Indie games can't do it because they don't have the budget and AAA devs can't do it because their games cost way too much to risk having any depth.
More_Badass
Member
Oh snap, Derrick's here
Would be interested in checking out some of those titles, could you share some of the names?
(And I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I'd genuinely like to play them)
Mr. Poolman
Member
I've had more fun with FTL than with Bioshock 1 for example.
I wish to live in a world where the "indie ideas" and risks would be taken by larger developers and resources. But these days everything seems like "franchise this, franchise that".
We need to bring balance to the industry.
I wish to live in a world where the "indie ideas" and risks would be taken by larger developers and resources. But these days everything seems like "franchise this, franchise that".
We need to bring balance to the industry.
Magic Mushroom
Member
The idea that all independent games are low budget, or at least look low budget, is bullshit. I bet The Witness has a rather nice budget for example. It certainly looks the part. RESET, Routine, No Man's Sky, A Hat in Time, The Vanishing of Ethan Carter... Beautiful games.
Then again, I find pixel art filled games like Hyper Light Drifter and Radio the Universe gorgeous as well. True art.
Kickstarter changed things as well of course. Look at the money Star Citizen made or how good and ambitious Kingdom Come looks without the need for a traditional publisher.
Then again, I find pixel art filled games like Hyper Light Drifter and Radio the Universe gorgeous as well. True art.
Kickstarter changed things as well of course. Look at the money Star Citizen made or how good and ambitious Kingdom Come looks without the need for a traditional publisher.
Not as many I should. I've never completed any of them, but off the top of my head I've played bits of Super Meat Boy, Bit.Trip Runner, Another World, FEZ, Cave Story, Braid, Binding of Isaac, To The Moon, Ziggurat, Closure, Contrast and Trine 2.
If the Sony ones count then I've completed Flower, played most of Journey and completed Resogun.
I have a feeling that The Witness might rank with the aforementioned AAA games that I love though.
That's on my to play list. Unfortunately I've never played a game of that genre before so I might not appreciate it as much as people who are steeped in the NES and SNES games of old. I've tried it and it certainly had charm and I've read this review which talks about the guy who developed it:
http://www.actionbutton.net/?p=416
I'll look into it at some point that's for sure. I suspect there are a few that once I fully play them may break into my elite list. To The Moon for example.
I've personally moved away quite a bit from 'AAA' titiles over the last couple years as I've gotten older. The appeal was there at the beginning of last gen, but by the end I was tired of them to the point where I haven't even finished games like TLoU. The whole cinematic storytelling/explosive setpiece routines worn me out from them and I've been mainly sticking to the Soul's games and the occasional jrpg on the console side of things.
PC though is were I've been spending most of my time as the variety of games offered I feel is wider. Indies and the smaller budget titles is what appeals to me more now as opposed to my younger self years ago. I definitely would play more 'AAA' titles if developers paid more attention to the depth and gameplay aspects and less the story and large scale production side of things.
More_Badass
Member
What about a game like Distance, which is made by a small team and is an acrobatic arcade racer through open futuristic environments? Or XenoRaptor, which is by one guy and is a frantic action shooter with depth in customizing your loadout and cool varied weaponry? Or Tower of Guns, which is an old-school steampunk first person shooter/roguelike hybrid?
There are dozens of examples that show that many indies aren't "usually twee platformers and games without gameplay" or simply "recreating childhood experiences with newfangled gimmick"
Magic Mushroom
Member
Yeah, indie games can be literally anything. From survival (horror) like Rust, Don't Starve and Routine, to Metroidvania's like La Mulana, to stealth games like Mark of the Ninja and Gunpoint, to puzzle games like The Swapper to a magical realist adventure like Kentucky Route Zero to an interactive text adventure like Device6. And that's just a few. There's so much creativity in that space.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
Ever since Olli Olli came out I am having a really difficult time playing anything else. Vita + Indies is a dream combo. The pick up and play nature and sleep and resume feature is a great fit for Indies.
Seriously people need to check out Olli Olli. The price ia a little more than I would have hoped ( should have been $9.99), but it is one of those games where you can lose yourself in it and get into a zone. there is a lot levels and daily challenges and it has a surpising amount of depth.
Seriously people need to check out Olli Olli. The price ia a little more than I would have hoped ( should have been $9.99), but it is one of those games where you can lose yourself in it and get into a zone. there is a lot levels and daily challenges and it has a surpising amount of depth.
Magic Mushroom
Member
I know the feeling. I have that with Spelunky. I hardly play anything else at the moment.
Weltall Zero
Member
God, so much truth in a single post. That's exactly why I'm so much into indies; they get straight to the fucking point. Why would I play a game that gives me 20% of satisfying, challenging gameplay and 80% of crap (often mediocre story, "walking around" gameplay, gameplay that's mind-numbingly easy until many hours in, etc. etc.) when I can get into something like Spelunky and be on my toes from minute 1?
The thing is that while indies do this more often than AAA games, it's not always the case. Platinum games have a tendency to be engaging from the start, while many indies seem to be content with mimicking AAA games (I rarely have a lot of interest in any indie game that's not sprite-base, for example). Of course, I feel free to love the former and ignore the latter.
There's also a ton of amazing indie game that have sold in the hundreds or single thousands. I was utterly saddened that a game as amazing and plain fun as Clairvoyance sold around that range.
The divide isn't that indies are "underrated", because for that they have to be rated in the first place. The divide is that most indies, including some very good ones, are entirely invisible. If a game you consider good is given bad reviews or is disliked by people, that's one thing. If noone ever knows about it (and I mean literally, not just "Remember Me" level of lack of success), it's a very different one.
You do realize this thread and those were made by the very same person, don't you?
Because it gets people in the discussion. Yes, it's provocative and baiting, but here we are still discussing the topic. Most other indie threads except for the monthlies die a near-instant death.
I do understand why you would be upset, and I might or might not like this strategy myself, but it works. For the record, I agree 100% that indies > AAA, though.
I've been playing it non-stop since the summer!
Olli Olli is definitely on my to-get list once I've cleared a bit of my Vita backlog.
You won't get that response unless you're criticizing a game because it's indie, which is an extremely common happening both within NeoGAF and without (just have a look at the debacle surrounding Rock Papet Shotgun's top 2013 PC games). Criticizing an indie game you didn't like is fine; criticizing one you've not even played because its graphics aren't up to Unreal Engine standards only shows your ignorance (or trolling intentions) and frankly, deserves little more than that response.
FriedConsole
Banned
Agreed. It is just tribalism. I don't see why people need to identify themselves as an "indie gamer". The whole making fun of "casuals" is replaced by immature people making fun of people who play AAA games. As if playing one type of game makes you a more intelligent person.
I like indie games with gameplay (Spelunky and Hot Line Miami was on my top 10 last year). I am not into interactive art experiences or "it is not supposed to be fun" games but if I put that into a forum you get "you don't get it". Like I am a total dumbass. Do I need to show these people test scores as proof of intelligence?
I like those retro style games and all, but they can't get too much time and attention from me. Usually i finish them without getting everything and never touch it again.
Recently though some of these independent developers have been coming with mid-level stuff that really impressed and interested me waaaaay more than any overhyped AAA title out there. So yeah, i guess i can say i like the indie stuff a bit more now.
Too bad the big names want to kill mid-level game for gigantic budget AAA titles that really don't offer anything, because IMO mid level gaming is where the inovation and cool stuff is at most of the time.
Recently though some of these independent developers have been coming with mid-level stuff that really impressed and interested me waaaaay more than any overhyped AAA title out there. So yeah, i guess i can say i like the indie stuff a bit more now.
Too bad the big names want to kill mid-level game for gigantic budget AAA titles that really don't offer anything, because IMO mid level gaming is where the inovation and cool stuff is at most of the time.
Canis lupus
Member
There are as many bad indie games as bad AAA games but people never talk about the bad indie games because even the better indie games barely got enough recognition. Like someone previously said: just play good games, there is no "indie>AAA" unless you're out there comparing a good game vs bad game, it's a ridicilous claim.
There is Journey but I'd hardly call it indie as it was co-developed with Sony Santa Monica and funded by SCE.
There is Journey but I'd hardly call it indie as it was co-developed with Sony Santa Monica and funded by SCE.
I hope this trend continues with other publishers.
Not every game has to be "Game of the Generation."
To me, there seems to be some profit to be made by the mid-range games that deliver a tight and focused experience.
More_Badass
Member
I was going to say not all indies are retro style games, but then I read the rest of your post
Have you seen Distance, Tower of Guns, Cloudbuilt, Stasis, Overgrowth, etc.?
Oh believe me, we know there are a million times more bad Indies than bad AAA games, just purely because of the total numbers.Sorry to say, but you are completely missing the point of the thread if you say "indie>AAA" in any context is a ridiculous claim.
More_Badass
Member
We're not saying one's good or one's bad. We're just saying indie games offer experiences that big budget AAA games don't, examine themes they won't, and are just overall more diverse and original. Sure there are crappy indie games, but there are also great indies games worth playing that don't get the attention they deserve
hypostatic
Member
This.
I've played a bunch of indie games. 95% of the time, they're nothing more than good, creative ideas.
I'll take 60 hours of the beautiful piracy of Assassin's Creed 4 over the clunky controls and trite story of Gone Home.
More_Badass
Member
What kinds of games do you like, and what indies have you played? Maybe you just haven't played the kinds that suit the genres you like
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
Thank you for this thread OP. The whole post was Flawless. It's so refreshing to see someone who understand the true wealth and potential indie has for the gaming industry. Console have the opportunity to help indies in a big way. I 100% agree. In fact, my most anticipated games for next gen are mostly indies. I believe indies offer a change of pace that AAA does not cater to at all for the sake of money. Indies will be the true movement that defines the industry in years to come. I feel a lot of developers who are tired of politics will become self made and make their own success. If the industry is booming the way it is early on, I see new and more resources opening up for the smaller guys to help them defeat the powers of big corporate gaming companies like EA, Activision.. Etc. Kickstarter and Unity is the best so far.
More_Badass
Member
Decided to cut that insanely long post from a few pages back and just turned it into an opinion piece. You can read it here:
http://indiegameenthusiast.blogspot.com/2014/02/ramblings-why-im-indie-gamer.html
I think I outline my opinion well. It's not that AAA is bad and indies are always great. It's that indies can explore themes and offer diverse original experiences that big budget mainstream AAA can't or won't
http://indiegameenthusiast.blogspot.com/2014/02/ramblings-why-im-indie-gamer.html
I think I outline my opinion well. It's not that AAA is bad and indies are always great. It's that indies can explore themes and offer diverse original experiences that big budget mainstream AAA can't or won't