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Indie > 'AAA'

Yeah, the problem is that the perception isnt aligning with that. As I said in the OP, I am not even saying that big budget games are bad games per se. Its just that the games industry positioned themselves into a spot where its very hard for them to innovate and push new concepts, whereas the Indie scene is filling up that niche quite nicely. A good game is a good game and should be treated equally, right? Yet big budget games see millions of purchases, while far cheaper Indie games that are definitely great games as well arent even getting 1% of the size of the same playerbase.

But they don't need to. Games with a massive budget need a huge audience, small games don't. They can thrive happilly on 100k sold, whereas AC needs to sell around 10 million to be called a succes. They're games made for a large market, similar to Hollywood blockbusters.

As for innovation, I love some of the ideas in indies, but games like Demon's Souls/Dark Souls, the Super Mario Galaxies and Wonferful 101 I mentioned early are filled with creativity as well. AAA is not the creative wasteland some people say it is, just as there are tons of shit indie games.

I'm happy with the indie boom though. Diversity is important.
 

Row

Banned
I'd put them at about equal. Indie games are far more unique and have introduced tons of great new gameplay and narrative ideas but there's tons of genres you'll never get to enjoy if you were to stick solely to indie.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
But they don't need to. Games with a massive budget need a huge audience, small games don't. They can thrive happilly on 100k sold, whereas AC needs to sell around 10 million to be called a succes. They're games made for a large market, similar to Hollywood blockbusters.

As for innovation, I love some of the ideas in indies, but games like Demon's Souls/Dark Souls, the Super Mario Galaxies and Wonferful 101 I mentioned early are filled with creativity as well. AAA is not the creative wasteland some people say it is, just as there are tons of shit indie games.

I'm happy with the indie boom though. Diversity is important.

But why shouldnt they? The reason I am so vocal about this issue is because I am convinced that more people would love certain games if they actually tried them. I am pretty sure I alone convinced a few hundred purchases (might be lowballing it) on certain games, as do others here when they talk about the experiences they have. And usually people are positively surprised about the experiences they get with these games. Sure, Indies dont NEED to sell that much, but they could. They might be less mainstream, but the biggest reason why those 99% arent giving them the light of the day is missing visibility, which is also the reason why Indies are doing exceptionally well on Vita btw.

I'd put them at about equal. Indie games are far more unique and have introduced tons of great new gameplay and narrative ideas but there's tons of genres you'll never get to enjoy if you were to stick solely to indie.

I agree with your first assessment and disagree with your second. We went over that discussion a million times, but rest assured that there are VERY few genres that you wont find Indie Games for. In fact, I'd argue that the current big budget output has far less genres to offer.

Still, big budget games are a nice thing. I wouldnt want to miss the Skyrims and Last of Us either. However, Indies still have to fight some ridiculous preconceived notions that people should get rid of.
 
Sure they can coexist and thats how it SHOULD be, but I am still encountering opinions like "2D games are all shit" and the other complaints I listed in the OP way too often. People also vote with their wallets and some great games I found on Desura during the past months are hardly a commercial hit. I am not necessarily blaming the people either, there are many problems that lead to that, missing visibility being one of the most important. But thats the reason why I am annoying people to no end on GAF about it I guess.

Random aside: I also consider The Witness definitely an Indie game, but that discussion is just turning in circles because no one actually has a clear and working definition of that term.

I've felt that smaller budget gaming has had a sort of renaissance. It is increasingly more acceptable, and wide spread because of iOS and Android. It is the reason why MS is allowing their XB1 to become devkits, to allow more of these type of games to be available to consumers on the console level.

Effectively they are trying to find a happy medium where small budget, and larger budget games coexist in the same ecosystem.
 
But they don't need to. Games with a massive budget need a huge audience, small games don't. They can thrive happilly on 100k sold, whereas AC needs to sell around 10 million to be called a succes. They're games made for a large market, similar to Hollywood blockbusters.

As for innovation, I love some of the ideas in indies, but games like Demon's Souls/Dark Souls, the Super Mario Galaxies and Wonferful 101 I mentioned early are filled with creativity as well. AAA is not the creative wasteland some people say it is, just as there are tons of shit indie games.

I'm happy with the indie boom though. Diversity is important.
Yeah and that's a damn shame. When a game as good as Tomb Raider or even Hitman Absolution sells millions and millions but is considered a financial failure, that's just mindboggling

In the AAA market, unfortunately new IPs are calculated risks. The smaller scale of indie games allow for greater diversity and experimentation

All the hate for big budget AAA games is laughable.

Bring em on, I say! I love a cinematic experience.
I wouldn't call it hate. More of a different standards and opinions. I love my Uncharted's, God of War's, CoD's, etc as much as anyone else. The Last of Us is my current game of the generation; no other game and very few books or movies had ever got me as emotionally invested as TLOU. I cared for those characters

But the indie scene is different more diverse and intriguing than the majority of what's happening on consoles and AAA.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
I've felt that smaller budget gaming has had a sort of renaissance. It is increasingly more acceptable, and wide spread because of iOS and Android. It is the reason why MS is allowing their XB1 to become devkits, to allow more of these type of games to be available to consumers on the console level.

Effectively they are trying to find a happy medium where small budget, and larger budget games coexist in the same ecosystem.
Yep, and its cool to see that. However there are still plenty of people who dont actually consider these games worth something, like...

I don't like how AAA is in quote marks. Any who, the only appeal of Indie gamed is the low price.

...this guy here! Cue the purpose of this thread.

To be fair to your statement, both terms should probably be in quote marks as these terms are just standins for the basic ideas we are talking about and not necessarily the correct terms to be actually used since they are faaaaaar too broad.
 
I don't like how AAA is in quote marks. Any who, the only appeal of Indie gamed is the low price.
Seriously? I think I and many others have attested to the fact that indie games offer certain experiences, genres, or concepts that wouldn't be feasible or successful in the AAA market

Lower prices are just the icing on the cake.
 
No. AAA gaming may have lost some of its reputation in recent years due to the market chasing after a few very successful formulas, leading to homogenization. However, does that mean indies are better than AAA? Lol no. The best AAA still outclass the best indie. I have yet to see indie games as good as RDR, Portal 2, Bioshock or The Last of Us.

Most of the indies are 2D 16bit games. Nothing wrong with that, but I'd like to see 3D indies with higher production values. I wanna see A/AA indie games.
 
No. AAA gaming may have lost some of its reputation in recent years due to the market chasing after a few very successful formulas, leading to homogenization. However, does that mean indies are better than AAA? Lol no. The best AAA still outclass the best indie. I have yet to see indie games as good as RDR, Portal 2, Bioshock or The Last of Us.

Most of the indies are 2D 16bit games. Nothing wrong with that, but I'd like to see 3D indies with higher production values. I wanna see A/AA indie games.
http://nitronic-rush.com/
It's free. Try it (Works best with a gamepad)

And the sequel, coming soon
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=103111305
 

kevm3

Member
I've actually enjoyed a lot of indie games more than a lot of these big budget games. I've enjoyed a game like Terraria as much as any other game this generation. I would say they are more complements to each other than one replacing the other.
 

Arthea

Member
I dislike modern AAA gaming as much as any other oldtimer, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that indies can replace them. Some indies are great, some of them have no analogs in AAA counterparts at all, but... bigger budget is much preferable than smaller ones for so many obvious reasons. If only we had a flood of good, creative AA games, some bridge between AAA and indies, I would be happy, but we don't have.

Don't agree that the best AAA always outclass the best indie, though. That's probably just shows how unhappy I am with AAA games, though.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
No. AAA gaming may have lost some of its reputation in recent years due to the market chasing after a few very successful formulas, leading to homogenization. However, does that mean indies are better than AAA? Lol no. The best AAA still outclass the best indie. I have yet to see indie games as good as RDR, Portal 2, Bioshock or The Last of Us.

Most of the indies are 2D 16bit games. Nothing wrong with that, but I'd like to see 3D indies with higher production values. I wanna see A/AA indie games.

"No" to you not reading the first few lines of the OP? The thread title refers to aspects of Indie Games that big budget games are missing and the reason why these games should get more exposure. Nobody is saying we need to get rid of big budget games, but its still important to give Indies more exposure than they currently get.

And while I dont disagree with the rest of your opinion, that is purely subjective. Some people might prefer playing FTL, SpaceChem or Frozen Synapse for hundreds of hours over the titles you mentioned.

I dislike modern AAA gaming as much as any other oldtimer, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that indies can replace them. Some indies are great, some of them have no analogs in AAA counterparts at all, but... bigger budget is much preferable than smaller ones for so many obvious reasons. If only we had a flood of good, creative AA games, some bridge between AAA and indies, I would be happy, but we don't have.

Don't agree that the best AAA always outclass the best indie, though. That's probably just shows how unhappy I am with AAA games, though.

Yep, we definitely shouldnt get rid of big budget games completely and I never said that anywhere ;p A vibrant and more popular Indie Game scene would also mean that people are more willing to take and buy into risks with big budget games too, and I'd love for these games to take more risks instead of continuosly getting less complex (Skyrim comes to mind for this argument, even though I loved it).

Though to be fair, the past few years definitely saw some changes in that regard with Demons Souls/Dark Souls being successful and some other big companies pushing some interesting games. We are still not even close to the level we should be though.
 
I don't understand how AAA can be compared with indies, personnally. It's not a question of budget, really (or a stealth troll), but both of them play on such different expectations, on different mechanisms and on a different level of polish that any comparaison seems fallacious. When I play an indie, I know what I can expect. Ditto for AAA.
It's not a matter of saying that indie or AAA missing something that the other have; it's ontologicaly unlikely to expect some things (polish from indie; originality from AAA) from any of them.

Bring em on, I say! I love a cinematic experience.

Well, if you love cinema (good directing, good acting, good plots) you ought to despise AAA cinematic gaming all the more, then ;p
 

AlucardGV

Banned
i don't think indie can get more exposure than what they get now. more exposure would be marketing, and marketing is expensive
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
i don't think indie can get more exposure than what they get now. more exposure would be marketing, and marketing is expensive

Sure they can. We give them more exposure. The fact that we make threads about them and talk about these games where other people can see it and get interested. I just think that not enough people are talking about these games yet.
 
Sure they can. We give them more exposure. The fact that we make threads about them and talk about these games where other people can see it and get interested. I just think that not enough people are talking about these games yet.
So true. There have been so many games that I would have never known about, especially during the Steam Sale, if not for the recommendations on GAF. Word of mouth and fan support is probably the best marketing an indie game could ask for. A loyal fanbase is critical.

And there's also the satisfication of discovery. Finding a smaller, mostly unknown game, and discovering that it's really good, then spreading the word. I don't think you can experice that feeling of surprise and discovery in AAA anymore
 
I think it is all about the mind set of the developers. You could tell a lot of the (now dead) companies such as Origin set out to make the best game they possibly could. This results in games packed with things that "don't need to be there". The other approach is to make a game that will sell us much as possible which is what you see in AAA today.

I see a lot more of this creativity in indie games, which is understandable. It also means there is more risk in playing one, but I've really found some gems (thanks again to Toma for the work here).

Ironically I think we are starting to see quite a few "AAA indie games". I see platform games especially created perhaps just for indie sales. Because of this, I see the label as pretty dynamic and not necessarily related just to budget.

I'm not going to quite say The Last of Us is almost indie... But I think it demonstrates the path I'm thinking down.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
It's not a matter of saying that indie or AAA missing something that the other have; it's ontologicaly unlikely to expect some things (polish from indie; originality from AAA) from any of them.

Are you saying Indies dont have polish and AAA misses originality? Now that isnt QUITE completely true either. Quite a few Indies are way more polished than some bug ridden AAA releases (Hello Skyrim PS3), and while I agree with the notion of Indies being more innovative and experimental, there are developers who try to mix things up a bit. For example I consider Last of Us way more original than Uncharted (by definition since Uncharted is already a series). Regarding the AAA industry, more devs COULD innovate some more if people were willing to buy these games, and it seems like they seem to be.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
I think it is all about the mind set of the developers. You could tell a lot of the (now dead) companies such as Origin set out to make the best game they possibly could. This results in games packed with things that "don't need to be there". The other approach is to make a game that will sell us much as possible which is what you see in AAA today.

I see a lot more of this creativity in indie games, which is understandable. It also means there is more risk in playing one, but I've really found some gems (thanks again to Toma for the work here).

Ironically I think we are starting to see quite a few "AAA indie games". I see platform games especially created perhaps just for indie sales. Because of this, I see the label as pretty dynamic and not necessarily related just to budget.

Yep, agree with that. The Witness is considered big budget/AAA by some, but it truly is an Indie game at heart that wouldnt exist without a strong Indie Game scene of the past few years.
 
No. AAA gaming may have lost some of its reputation in recent years due to the market chasing after a few very successful formulas, leading to homogenization. However, does that mean indies are better than AAA? Lol no. The best AAA still outclass the best indie. I have yet to see indie games as good as RDR, Portal 2, Bioshock or The Last of Us.

Most of the indies are 2D 16bit games. Nothing wrong with that, but I'd like to see 3D indies with higher production values. I wanna see A/AA indie games.

I've enjoyed some indie games a lot more than any of those examples. The idea that being 3-D with a larger scale automatically equates to a higher standard of quality is ridiculous.
 

AlucardGV

Banned
Sure they can. We give them more exposure. The fact that we make threads about them and talk about these games where other people can see it and get interested. I just think that not enough people are talking about these games yet.

that's what i said. we can talk about them, but once i paid for the game my "job" is done. it's up to the game itself (and the developer) to become popular
i'm sure it's way more effective to buy a little spot on steam main page or some ads on videogaming website than just let us do topics about it
 
The current infrastructure and spec capability of existing hardware is more than enough to flourish the indie scene.

I don't see why we should be buying new consoles for an indie experience.

Seems like a waste of money.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
that's what i said. we can talk about them, but once i paid for the game my "job" is done. it's up to the game itself (and the developer) to become popular
i'm sure it's way more effective to buy a little spot on steam main page or some ads on videogaming website than just let us do topics about it

Well you said that you need "paid (expensive) marketing" to give games exposure, which isnt true. And advertising a game is not the whole story, the community is more important than what you apparently think.

The current infrastructure and spec capability of existing hardware is more than enough to flourish the indie scene.

I don't see why we should be buying new consoles for a better indie experience.

Seems like a waste of money.

Apparently it isnt, because Indies are selling like shit on 360 for example, which shows that MS is doing a terrible job at promoting these games in their OS. Plus, we only get rarely high performance Indies because it would decrease the amount of people potentially playing them on a PC even more. On a console however, they dont need to care about the specs and can make games such as Journey or The Witness. So if you want the Indie philosophies with high end graphics, you should welcome the new console generation embracing these games.
 
that's what i said. we can talk about them, but once i paid for the game my "job" is done. it's up to the game itself (and the developer) to become popular
i'm sure it's way more effective to buy a little spot on steam main page or some ads on videogaming website than just let us do topics about it
Have you heard of a little game called State of Decay? I was part of their forums for the last year. A 22-person team and they had literally no marketing budget. No ads, only like one trailer. The devs thanked the fans and community, because they attributed their success to us spreading the word and our support

By success, I mean fastest and highest selling new IP on XBLA behind Minecraft

And IMO, I find your view kind of cynical. If you found a good game, one that you thoroughly enjoyed, but was underrepresented or unknown, you wouldn't tell others about it or try to get people interested?
 
Are you saying Indies dont have polish and AAA misses originality? Now that isnt QUITE completely true either. Quite a few Indies are way more polished than some bug ridden AAA releases (Hello Skyrim PS3), and while I agree with the notion of Indies being more innovative and experimental, there are developers who try to mix things up a bit. For example I consider Last of Us way more original than Uncharted (by definition since Uncharted is already a series).

Generally speaking it's my feeling, yes.
And I was thinking about originality in absolute : TLOU may be more original than Uncharted, or vice versa, but in the grand scheme of the videogaming industry I don't believe it represents a truly original experience.
It doesn't deter the game to be a masterpiece, of course.

Regarding the AAA industry, more devs COULD innovate some more if people were willing to buy these games, and it seems like they seem to be.

Blaming the consummers, or the developpers, is a dead end, I think. People naturally looks for something they can relate with, an experience which remind them of something they have already played/loved. It's entirely natural and not something dishonorable :)
 

nkarafo

Member
What i don't like about indie games is that most of them have newground's flash graphics style and rely to much on retro gaming.

Older generation AAA>Indie>modern AAA
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Blaming the consummers, or the developpers, is a dead end, I think. People naturally looks for something they can relate with, an experience which remind them of something they have already played/loved. It's entirely natural and not something dishonorable :)

Well yeah, thats exactly the issue. I am not saying its something dishonorable, but if we get people to play more original concepts, then they are also fine with more original concepts and innovation in AAA games, which leads to more developers trying that. Win/Win situation in my opinion.
 
I think the current trajectory of AAA games is a no-future scenario and I have found that I get (far) more enjoyment out of indy games than I get out of a lot of AAA games.

I do enjoy some of them obviously, but I think a neat package with a clear and precise story that works and might even considered well written is far better that "go here! Do that! Follow that guy!" and the constant, I swear to god, passive aggressive tone in EVERYTHING.

I just don't care about it anymore. I spend my steam sales looking out for indy games more than I do for AAA.

alas, I do not own Spacechem. Hook a brother up, won't you? :'D (kidding)
 
Well yeah, thats exactly the issue. I am not saying its something dishonorable, but if we get people to play more original concepts, then they are also fine with more original concepts and innovation in AAA games, which leads to more developers trying that. Win/Win situation in my opinion.

I agree with you :)
 

Sylver

Banned
Nah, just few indie games are cool, the last time I enjoyed them was Limbo, reduce AAA difference to graphics is wrong, usually gameply is too basic or they lack of story telling. To play some indie games is better to dust off our snes consoles and play AAA titles made for that era.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...

Hard Reset also comes to mind. Or Flower, Journey, The Witness or Expeditions:Conquistador for 3D games. Or original 2D art styles like Don't starve, Ballpoint Universe, Splice, Gnomoria or FTL. There is plenty of variety in how these games can look, and I think that most Unreal Games look way too samey compared to the variety of games made with Unity for example.
 
Hard Reset also comes to mind. Or Flower, Journey, The Witness or Expeditions:Conquistador for 3D games. Or original 2D art styles like Don't starve, Ballpoint Universe, Splice, Gnomoria or FTL. There is plenty of variety in how these games can look, and I think that most Unreal Games look way too samey compared to the variety of games made with Unity for example.
I just always reference Nitronic Rush, because it looks and plays something I'd pay for on XBLA or PSN, but it's actually free and an indie. It's not a "2D retro platformer", the visual fidelity is high, and it's just so damn fun
 
Well yeah, thats exactly the issue. I am not saying its something dishonorable, but if we get people to play more original concepts, then they are also fine with more original concepts and innovation in AAA games, which leads to more developers trying that. Win/Win situation in my opinion.

Spot on.

Mind you the catch is a lot of companies are not set up to move in this direction due to overheads and opportunity costs. Going to be rocky roads ahead but we'll also get some great games.
 

besada

Banned
Indie games have the same problem every form of media is running into: When there are no gatekeepers, and anyone can make media, how does one notice the good stuff while ignoring the crap.

To start off, let's accept that most of the stuff (in any medium) is crap. Making art is hard, and most people fail to execute on their vision, or they had a bad vision in the first place. As Theodore Sturgeon said, "90% of everything is crap."

So, given that, we are tasked with finding the 10% that isn't crap, but it's floating in a sea fo crap, so that's a difficult proposition. iTunes, which has this problem in spades, has tried both curation (recommended sections) and crowd-based evaluation (ratings and top lists) and is still a sea of crap studded with the occasional gem.

Steam, being more heavily curated, does a better job, but is still swamped with crap. PSN and XBLA, which are entirely curated, do a better job, too.

And then you come to stuff like XBLIG, which has no curation, but worse yet, has terrible tools for crowd-based rating and searching highly-evaluated games.

The issue isn't that no one loves indie games, the issue is that no one knows whether they love a particular indie game or not, because it's incredibly hard to tell if a game is any good with research that most people are unwilling to do. GAF and places like it have a role in this, acting as external crowd-based rating systems, as do media outlets like Polygon/Escapist/etc.

So far, no one seems to have figured out a great way to do it. I can't think of any self-publishing concern that doesn't have this problem, from Amazon's Kindle library to the various sites that have tried this with film.

The only thing we do know is that the real gems, the stunners, tend to rise to the top on word of mouth. Short films go viral, self-published books explode via word of mouth, and indie games wind up plastered all over forums and media sites.

The problem isn't the very top-tier of indie games getting ignored, it's the midlist. The games that are good, but not quite spectacular enough to start a massive word of mouth campaign like FTL. A studio game can be midlist and still find its audience because studios can market it heavily, but without a marketing budget, the midlist indie games become invisible. They don't show up on the top rated pages, no one's hyping them in the forums, etc. That's the real loss, because some of them are gems, albeit rough gems.

I don't have the answer to this, anymore than anyone else does, but this is the issue. Attention is the new currency in media. If you can get the attention, the money will follow, but getting the attention gets harder every time a new concern opens up an easy route to making games, and more and more indies flood the market.
 
Nah, just few indie games are cool, the last time I enjoyed them was Limbo, reduce AAA difference to graphics is wrong, usually gameply is too basic or they lack of story telling. To play some indie games is better to dust off our snes consoles and play AAA titles made for that era.

I dont think this is accurate at all

A lot of "AAA" games all play very similar and can be pretty basic because they want to appeal to as many people as possible.

And saying most indies have to basic gameplay is just as silly. You get games like frozen synapse which have a pretty complex combat system for example.

I think the biggest problem is the stigma of what people think is a AAA or indie game really. You have some people that think all AAA games are just dude bro shooters and some people that think all indie games are 2d platformers. Both are completely incorrect.

Indie is filling the void of the A and AA games that all but disappeared and its totally awesome. It means that systems are getting games ranging from the huge budget section down to the 1 man band type experience and everything in between again.

I personally dont care if a game is indie or AAA. I just get a game if it looks fun.
 

Nymphae

Banned
My kneejerk reaction is to say no way, but really, AAA titles have been boring the shit out of me lately. For all their production dollars and huge ass teams, AAA games have been making me yawn for a while. Got bored with Far Cry 3 and didn't finish it, ditto Dishonoured, Borderlands, Assassins Creed Rev & 3. I've spent more time with Hotline Miami on PC & Vita than any AAA game in the past couple of years.
 

Mengy

wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
I'll throw my two cents into the discussion.


For me personally, I don't care at all whether a game is a AAA or an indie title, to me those terms are simply classifications as to the game's development budget. I've played AAA titles that were very original and creative, and I've played indie games that were terribly derivative and boring. All I care about, when looking at a game to purchase, is whether or not I will enjoy playing it. It's really that simple.


Now, that being said, I will admit that recently (for the past 5 years or so) the majority of my game purchases have been indie titles on the PC. I could probably list the "AAA" titles I've bought on less than ten fingers, and even a few of them were bought during Steam sales for very, very cheap. It's not that I have anything against big budget games, it's just that most of them bore me nowadays. But with indie titles I can almost always buy them for very little money. I mean usually I can buy ten or more indie games for every one AAA game. And the sad fact is that a lot of big budget games in today's market simply don't have enough gameplay value for me to justify that kind of money on them. They just don't.

So in the end, for me, it's about value for my money. I don't really care much about high end graphics, or state of the art CGI cutscenes, or Hollywood voice acting, I want a game that is fun and that will give me a good amount of gaming time for my money. If I buy a game for $1 then I won't mind it so much if I get bored of it after a week or two. If I spend $60 on a game then it damn well better hold my attention for a long time, and it better be damn fun and it better not only give me 15 hours of gameplay before I'm finished with it.
 

ohlawd

Member
nah. I'd take a shitty AAA game over an indie game 99.9% of the time. I simply don't give a shit about non games.

The 0.01% is for Hotline Miami.
 
nah. I'd take a shitty AAA game over an indie game 99.9% of the time. I simply don't give a shit about non games.

The 0.01% is for Hotline Miami.
What defines a "non game"? If you want to have a discussion, you really have to define what constitutes a "non game" and what constitutes a "game"

On that note, if you like Hotline Miami, then you must like games where progress is earned through skill and mastery, games with atmosphere and tone and a narrative to tell.
 

Sotha_Sil

Member
Indie games, like AAA games, fill a niche. I don't get the blanket hate for either type of game. The only way to go is to enjoy them both.
 
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