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[Mister Apoc]

This is going to be a controversial thread to some here, my intention is not to decry Progressive politics, but to make a statement about a influential game developer

They tend to avoid liberal politics it seems

there games tend to be very masculine, there games tend to be exploring the underbelly of Americana

this isn't to say that Rockstar is alt right or a conservative company, they obviously aren't (Sam Houser was a big donor to Obama) but they tend to avoid that trend of inserting really leftist political ideals in their games unlike Naughty Dog or Bioware

You can talk about the satire of GTA (which attacks both left and right American politics) but Rockstar has never been a "political" developer. Even Ubisoft is a more political developer than Rockstar

 

[dispensergoinup]

Nice, I like this thread so far and I do agree that R* has steered away from political messaging pushing one side or the other.

I generally just enjoy their games at face value without any overbearing messages. And if they did, then they went over my head lol.

 

[A.Romero]

I think it's hard to tell their stance because they seem to criticize everyone.

Southpark used to be liked that.

 

[Mister Apoc]

This is what sparked this thread, i saw this article earlier. the writer claiming that Rockstar must deconstruct the American Frontier mythology

and I'm thinking to my self, That is completely something Rockstar will not do, i don't think they have any interest in doing something like that

https://venturebeat.com/2018/05/02/...-deconstruct-the-american-frontier-mythology/

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

Their games tend to be apolitical for the most part since you're usually playing as a criminal, hard to try to have a moral stance from that perspective.

If there's any message it's a simple anti-authority "everyone is corrupt in one way or the other" message that transcends the usual left/right dynamic.

Manhunt is a good example of this, the game is set in a devastated Detroit esque city, the villain is a rich asshole and some of the bad guys are Neo Nazis and corrupt cops, but this doesn't come off as a political diatribe, just an acknowledgement of the sometimes harsh reality of the world, plus it's simply scary, imagine being trapped in a situation where guys are trying to kill you and not even the police are any help.

Red Dead Redemption is also an interesting example, the game has a lot of distrust of the US Government woven into it's story, but it's depiction of Mexico as a dangerous place with a lot of "bad hombres" would certainly ruffle some tail feathers if the game came out today.

Bottom line they certainly don't care about political correctness, it's funny how just when there was starting to be a lot of talk about the depiction of women in video games along comes the topless strippers in GTAV.

 

[AndrewRyan]

Hadn't really thought about it but you're right. The DJs mercilessly critique both sides during the radio commentary in GTA. Also their willingness to blatantly ignore PC thinking shows at minimum they're not beholden to the left.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Thanks for reminding me of all the outrage articles that are going to come out claiming RDR2 is a testament to everything that is wrong about today's society and that the only way to not to do that is to submit to groupthink.

For the record I do think white privilege is a thing. It's just way overblown.

 

[The Shepard]

Imagine if the next Gta went all politically correct... Na, never happening! Gta is all about looking at American culture as a whole with satire. I would love a game set in the current political climate, would be fun.

 

[SaucyJack]

Yes, and long may it continue.

More of the entertainment industry could really do with ignoring politics and going back to entertaining us as well.

 

[WaterAstro]

Wasn't there one member that was a woman? I don't think it matter or has changed. RDR had Bonnie, which was a strong female character even though she wasn't too prevalent throughout the game. I don't think they go out of their way to femme things up like EA did for BFV.

 

[{insert code here}]

With the exception of Square Enix's American studios, the Japanese studios haven't been affected. Progressive politics is only a problem in western games/media. Years from now we'll all look back at the media produced during this time and laugh at ourselves.

Also, CDPR?

 

[faraany3k]

R* are not really fans of PC. I mean all there games release late on the platform.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

OG GTA 1 selectable characters with modern portraits.

Ever played a game where the focus was on a character who is gay?

In Bully, Jimmy is bi-sexual:

On passing his first Art class, Jimmy can kiss one boy from each clique. He must be on friendly terms (60 faction or higher) with the clique and have flowers in his inventory to give to them. The six kissable boys are Trent Northwick, Gord Vendome, Cornelius Johnson, Vance Medici, Kirby Olsen and Duncan. Jimmy gets the same health bonus for kissing boys that he would have for kissing girls, but even after having passed Art 5, he will still have to present the boys with a gift.

Anna, a playable character in State of Emergency

The boss of GTA III, in San Andraes Artwork:

Rockstar games have always been diverse.

 

[DryvBy]

GTA has always taken stabs at both. Didn't they ban a forum poster for asking for politics in their game?

 

[Gormless Noodle]

OG GTA 1 selectable characters with modern portraits.

Ever played a game where the focus was on a character who is gay?

In Bully, Jimmy is bi-sexual:

Anna, a playable character in State of Emergency

The boss of GTA III, in San Andraes Artwork:

Rockstar games have always been diverse.

I don't think that's inserting leftist political ideals though, mainly because it's always been this way instead of (just as an example) "here's Kratos, he's gay now and anyone saying anything negative about it is an alt-right homophobe". But it's a very good example of how you can do all this and not make anyone give so much as a beep while others need to proselytise, demean the (previous) audience and generally just really kick it down your throat and gloat about it.

 

[TannerDemoz]

The dark souls of progressive politics

 

[{insert code here}]

Rockstar games have always been diverse.

Diversity and political correctness are not the same thing.

 

[TimFL]

How is that a bad thing? Just let them do their thing. I‘ve read one too many „GTA VI better adds a female protagonist“ posts on here, let the Housers tell the story they want to tell. No use in forcing stuff onto them they don‘t feel comfortable with or stories they don‘t want to tell.

I feel like we‘ve reached a point where devs have to give up their artistic vision as to not offend some minority or be frowned upon (white washing, no female protagonists, political correctness and so on). I miss the times where no one cared. Yes it sucks that stuff like female protagonists in these types of games are still lacking, but I‘d rather pick that over developers giving up their artistic vision for a game just to appeal to everyones tastes.

 

[radewagon]

I think R* has always leaned toward the progressive side. It`s a strange situation, though, because many leftist views tend to favor media censorship because of the whole "what about the children" idea. Since R* is pretty much the poster child for what many on the left hate about video games it's easy to assume R* are apolitical. Also, as many have said, their decision to skewer both sides with their satire has also created the appearance of being apolitical.

Couldn't be further from the truth. Just look at how inclusive they are.
GTA SA - Minority Protagonist
GTA IV - An immigrant's story
Ballad of Gay Tony - An openly gay character and a minority protagonist.
GTA V - Arguably, the most noble character is a minority.
Red Dead - Great female characters that aren't just damsels.

I think it's strange that many gamers see progressive politics, still, as this outside force that can infect or corrupt the media they consume. Many creatives are just naturally progressive and the stories they tell are a reflection of that. I think the real change we're seeing isn't that companies like Naughty Dog are focusing on a lesbian protagonist, but more so that a company like Sony is willing to let them.

 

[bosnianpie]

I think Rockstar is doing it right. They've had all kinds of characters but I can't recall that any of them have felt pushed or misplaced for the sake of diversity.

I wouldn't be able to say the same thing about Naughty Dog for instance, one of my favorite studios. They're definitely pushing more political statements into their games than necessary.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

I think R* has always leaned toward the progressive side. It`s a strange situation, though, because many leftist views tend to favor media censorship because of the whole "what about the children" idea. Since R* is pretty much the poster child for what many on the left hate about video games it's easy to assume R* are apolitical. Also, as many have said, their decision to skewer both sides with their satire has also created the appearance of being apolitical.

Couldn't be further from the truth. Just look at how inclusive they are.
GTA SA - Minority Protagonist
GTA IV - An immigrant's story
Ballad of Gay Tony - An openly gay character and a minority protagonist.
GTA V - Arguably, the most noble character is a minority.
Red Dead - Great female characters that aren't just damsels.

I think it's strange that many gamers see progressive politics, still, as this outside force that can infect or corrupt the media they consume. Many creatives are just naturally progressive and the stories they tell are a reflection of that. I think the real change we're seeing isn't that companies like Naughty Dog are focusing on a lesbian protagonist, but more so that a company like Sony is willing to let them.

Additionally, GTA games in particular are satire.

Folks just aren't picking up on the the subtexts. I remember the Ziabatsu Monstrosity commercials from the GTAIII days, making fun of the gas-guzzling SUV craze in the early 2000s right as gas prices shot up above $0.99/gal.

Lazlow's talk show sure was something, too.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

Thanks for reminding me of all the outrage articles that are going to come out claiming RDR2 is a testament to everything that is wrong about today's society and that the only way to not to do that is to submit to groupthink.

For the record I do think white privilege is a thing. It's just way overblown.

It's a self perpetuating thing by this point, they know it pisses people off and anger = clicks which = money.

The dirty little secret of the internet is that it's woefully unprofitable, all these media websites popped up in the late 00s and they weren't making a profit like they were supposed to until they discovered that feigning outrage = more clicks.

The writers of this garbage probably don't actually believe half of what they write, but feigning outrage is literally their job.

Of course it isn't all about money, a lot of is social engineering, but some of the most obvious clickbait is just that, clickbait.

And sometimes they push it so past the point of absurdity people that it doesn't work, I swore I read somewhere once an article complaining about the Japanese lady's hand in Super Mario Maker, that players couldn't have the option to make it a black hand etc.

Don't know if that was for real or satire, wouldn't surprise me if it was real though.

 

[Dunki]

Additionally, GTA games in particular are satire.

Folks just aren't picking up on the the subtexts. I remember the Ziatatsu Monstrosity commercials from the GTAIII days, making fun of the gas-guzzling SUV craze in the early 2000s right as gas prices shot up above $0.99/gal.

Lazlow's talk show sure was something, too.

It is satire but according to game critics some satire is not allowed. For example the satre of feminism like it did happen in GTAV. I remember some people being very angry about this.

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

In GTAV, the strippers had no boob jiggle and Trevor supported illegal immigration. Both those things made me question the influence of the Left there.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

Additionally, GTA games in particular are satire.

Folks just aren't picking up on the the subtexts. I remember the Ziatatsu Monstrosity commercials from the GTAIII days, making fun of the gas-guzzling SUV craze in the early 2000s right as gas prices shot up above $0.99/gal.

Lazlow's talk show sure was something, too.

It was Zaibatsu Monstrosity, which was a neat little reference to GTA2.

And I still listen to the Lazlow talk show from GTA3 on Youtube every once in a while, damn was it entertaining.

Was there a talk show in GTAV? I don't remember hearing one on the radio.

In GTAV, the strippers had no boob jiggle and Trevor supported illegal immigration. Both those things made me question the influence of the Left there.

To be fair their tits were probably super fake, no jiggle necessary there.

 

[Ulysses 31]

It is satire but according to game critics some satire is not allowed. For example the satre of feminism like it did happen in GTAV. I remember some people being very angry about this.

Can't paint feminism in a negative light, not even in fictional dystopian settings like "The Last Night" game.

 

[Dunki]

Can't paint feminism in a negative light, not even in fictional dystopian settings like "The Last Night" game.

Yeah this is the sad stand we are in. And if you do you are an MRA, Nazi and sexist asshole....

Fiction should be allowed to do everything and the shit he got for this was just mindblowing.

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

To be fair their tits were probably super fake, no jiggle necessary there.

Ha. Its true. Maybe RS were just doing a social commentary on concrete fake boobs.

 

[Data Ghost]

Also its worth noting that the left are not necessarily 'progressive' they have just claimed the word. It is a tool.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

I never really see GTA or GTA 5 in particular as too much satire per se, but more so just parody. I don't think there's enough intention there to be critical -- it's just humour. It's highlighting absurdity, which is a form of criticism, too. But it's not politically motivated criticism. Just social commentary.

I think this because ultimately even the serious parts of GTA, from the get rich or die trying stories or the character relationships, are based on the same social values that the parody. GTA V as a story wouldn't really work very well if it was too intentional as a satire; but, as a crime drama set against the backdrop of a lot of parodies, it adds humour like a good sitcom.

Think Trailer Park Boys, or the film Friday (Franklin and Lamar are basically Ice Cube and Chris Tucker). They're not really satire, criticism of trailer park life; just parodying it -- Trevor and Michael, or Los Santos commercials and ads and etc, are the same way.

Anyhow, back onto progressive politics, I'm not so sure because a lot has changed in US politics and society since 2012/2013 when a lot of GTA5 was being made final ;p Guess we'll see with GTA6.

But to be sure, GTA5 gives zero fucks yet. Things like the fake American Apparel ad, slut shaming how girls dress or calling their yoga pants as "whore pants," 'advertised by a slut still dizzy from a night of pounding.' Fernando on talk radio compares breaking US debt ceiling to breaking a virgin's hymen -- just get it over with and enjoy. Plentiful rape or molestation jokes: one the van ads, 'what happens in the back stays in the back.' Another one, the long lost father calls into his son, a [gay] talk radio and disowns him for being such a nancy. At the very least, it makes the same offensive jokes the series always has (back when people used the word gay as a pejorative).

I play a lot of GTA 5 and Online, basically non-stop since 2013, and yet to this day I'm always listen to the radio commercials, talk radio channels, reading or watching the ads, etc ... and happens pretty regularly where I see or hear something where I'm still taken aback a little haha not offended but wondering, would this fly in GTA 6

 

[Lastyou1]

The lack of forced politics trusted down our throat by R* is one if the main reasons why their games are the best.

 

[cormack12]

I think Rockstar is doing it right. They've had all kinds of characters but I can't recall that any of them have felt pushed or misplaced for the sake of diversity.

I think this is key here. I never reduced Franklin, CJ or Niko down to their race or nationality. I just played as them. I mean, I just don't care. Give me a character, a game loop and objectives and I'm fine. I don't care Lara is a woman, I don't care Aloy is a native and so forth. The problem is that good diverse characters feel natural and as such don't generate much social commentary.

What is generating all the disdain and general apathy is the bombardment of diversity as a huge selling point. Honestly, how many people are going to walk away from a game because you play as a woman, or play as a black person? The warning signs have been there for years. Media in general has been going down this road for some time. Compare the reception of Django with the Magnificent seven for example. These publishers are late to a party that everyone is already fed up of being part of. At some point they're going to have to decide their end game here. Pissing off your core audience by shutting down criticism from them whilst labelling them as well will not work out well in the long run.

TLoU2 and BFV stand to be amazing games. Just looking at them and seeing them play out. But what are people still talking about down the line? The diversity circus. Both these games will still sell well but I think they need to realise, just like lootcrates, the seams are bursting on what is tolerable.

 

[Helios]

I think R* has always leaned toward the progressive side. It`s a strange situation, though, because many leftist views tend to favor media censorship because of the whole "what about the children" idea. Since R* is pretty much the poster child for what many on the left hate about video games it's easy to assume R* are apolitical. Also, as many have said, their decision to skewer both sides with their satire has also created the appearance of being apolitical.

Couldn't be further from the truth. Just look at how inclusive they are.
GTA SA - Minority Protagonist
GTA IV - An immigrant's story
Ballad of Gay Tony - An openly gay character and a minority protagonist.
GTA V - Arguably, the most noble character is a minority.
Red Dead - Great female characters that aren't just damsels.

I think it's strange that many gamers see progressive politics, still, as this outside force that can infect or corrupt the media they consume. Many creatives are just naturally progressive and the stories they tell are a reflection of that. I think the real change we're seeing isn't that companies like Naughty Dog are focusing on a lesbian protagonist, but more so that a company like Sony is willing to let them.

Is it them being progressive or is it them just putting characters in that fit? CJ is a minority because of the setting, not because of some progressive agenda. On the flipside the main character from KC: D is white because it's set in 15th century Bohemia.
Nobody minds minorities appearing in games as long as it doesn't break the setting because of a diversity quota.
I think the problem most people have with progressive politics is that way too many people try to force it. And I don't even mean developers, I mean people that don't even play games but want to further their agenda. And they try to force it so much that when you see a minority in a game you wonder if it's what the developers wanted, or they were just afraid that a journalist will write an article on how racist/misogynistic they are and sic a mob on them

 

[JimmyRustler]

The lack of forced politics trusted down our throat by R* is one if the main reasons why their games are the best.

It‘s also on of the reasons why I think Japanese games had such a strong comeback lately. This forced political correctness is killing art in the west. The checklist of what to keep in mind and who not to offend is just too big today - and it seems to get bigger by the minute. Imagine expressing yourself artistically in such an environment...

 

[Adry9]

I'd say CDPR just by blurring the line between "good" and "bad" stand out of any political side as well.

 

[Ulysses 31]

There are instances where Rockstar pushes back against SJWs

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

It‘s also on of the reasons why I think Japanese games had such a strong comeback lately. This forced political correctness is killing art in the west. The checklist of what to keep in mind and who not to offend is just too big today - and it seems to get bigger by the minute. Imagine expressing yourself artistically in such an environment...

I think so too.

2B from Nier shows how starved for unapologetically sexy female heroines females gamers are, I mean if characters like that are so "problematic" why are so many female fans cosplaying as her, even in hiney baring mode?

 

[TimFL]

TLoU2 is continuously being brought up here and I fail to get it. Are people seriously offended by the fact that Ellie is lesbian? I mean if they made that one up for the sequel, sure... but it was already established years ago in the story DLC? So it‘s not some kind of retcon or trying to be „progressive“. Can‘t remember any outcry when Left Behind was released, did no one bother playing that or what?

 

[Ulysses 31]

Can‘t remember any outcry when Left Behind was released, did no one bother playing that or what?

I didn't actually, just wanted to see what all the praise was about(and I didn't much being worthy of all the praise) the main game on hard was enough for me. >.>

 

[InterMusketeer]

Are people seriously offended by the fact that Ellie is lesbian?

No, it's that they felt the need to focus on that for the gameplay reveal trailer, when romantic relationships between characters was never the focus of any ND's recent games. Drake had relationships. Did they ever show him making out on the big screen? No. The context for the kissing scene shown at E3 was missing entirely. The only reason remaining is to virtue signal how progressive and inclusive their new game is. And we know that's one of ND's focal points. They said as much themselves. All the while basically ignoring one of the main characters of the previous game.

 

[cormack12]

Are people seriously offended by the fact that Ellie is lesbian?

You're probably best reading through the like 4/5 threads it caused to be honest. They became excessive. To sum up no one was really bothered about Ellie's sexuality. I don't know what the attach rate for the DLC was, but even if you didn't get the DLC I find it hard to believe that anyone wouldn't have stumbled across the information anyway as it's freely talked about now.

Basically it boiled down to the most important part of that whole trailer was to just show 'Hey, a lesbian kiss', after establishing that the other girl had a boyfriend anyway and there was very little context for it. It just seemed gratuitous to get cheap acclaim in what was a poorly contrived trailer. Basically running a flag up the pole to be saluted. And then when people were critical of this they got labelled all kinds of stuff like misogynist, sexist, anti feminism, homophobic etc. The usual stuff.

People are offended by the way the material and context is being handled by people clearly not subtle or deft enough to display it in a natural way. This doesn't just apply to TLoU2 though.

 

[a multicultural team of v]

I mean to be fair, their last game was released like 5 years ago, meaning a lot of the writing is likely 6-7 years old. That sounds like a short time but think of all the bullshit that has come about since then.

I do agree though that I think Rockstar is pretty good with this stuff. I have a lot if apprehension with RDR2, but at least I dont fear that the end boss will end up being toxic male masculinity.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

TLoU2 is continuously being brought up here and I fail to get it. Are people seriously offended by the fact that Ellie is lesbian? I mean if they made that one up for the sequel, sure... but it was already established years ago in the story DLC? So it‘s not some kind of retcon or trying to be „progressive“. Can‘t remember any outcry when Left Behind was released, did no one bother playing that or what?

It makes me uncomfortable yeah, because the lesbian kiss is the big front and center moment of that trailer, it's so in your face about it.

Ellie was revealed as gay in Left Behind, which I played when it came out and it didn't bother me, but it's a brief moment and the DLC was not SOLD on that moment, with TLoU2 you know just by virtue of the context of it being the present day that's it virtue signaling, 5 years ago it might have been about "this is an interesting story direction" but today it's "LOL SUCK IT DOWN YOU HOMOPHOBIC BIGOTS!"

This comic is a perfect example of that attitude, literally flipping us off for daring to be the least bit shocked or uncomfortable about it, if people are gonna have a bad attitude like that I'll have a bad attitude right back.

 

[TheShadowLord]

How is that a bad thing? Just let them do their thing. I‘ve read one too many „GTA VI better adds a female protagonist“ posts on here, let the Housers tell the story they want to tell. No use in forcing stuff onto them they don‘t feel comfortable with or stories they don‘t want to tell.

.

You also see people saying GTA shouldn't have a female lead. So everything you have said can be reversed. Though I am not really bothered if gta has a female lead or not. Nor do I see why anyone would care if gta gets a female lead or not.

 

[KonradLaw]

A lot of devs are like this. You can see how much journos cry that Ubi refuses to put clear politics into their games.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

A lot of devs are like this. You can see how much journos cry that Ubi refuses to put clear politics into their games.

I was really quite impressed with how Ubisoft handled Far Cry 5, didn't come off as a slam against America or Christians at all.

 

[Scopa]

I can’t wait to see the parody of Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump in GTA VI. It’s almost assured.

And I can’t wait to see the crybaby fallout from it too.

 

[Kreydo]

Maybe it's not about being progressive politic but just to not insult player inteligence? Historycally womens wasn't "playing" cowboy/outlaw during this period of time...
I guess Rockstar want to create a deep story with characters to tell, rather than surfing on some contempory social movement wich make no sense in the game context. Unlike some publishers did when they added black people and women in the SS Nazi army.
(which totally ruin the terrible racism identity of the Nazi, but well those game don't want to tell anything anyway...)

 

[Breakage]

It'll be interesting to see if Rockstar caves in with GTA6. You never know these days.

 

[luigimario]

Games have always been political. That doesn't mean every game is political, but politics in games isn't a new trend. FPS games, for example, you had all these WW2 games where youre killing nazis, and recently its games set in the middle east where you bomb and kill muslims, all to prop up and maintain the military industrial complex and the establishments love for war and love of sending the poor to go die in foreign lands.