Support NeoGAF

[Valhelm]

Big Mo was a slaver. The later arab empires and their corsair auxiliaries were ranging as far as britain and ireland to capture slaves, seems they had a particularly voracious appetite for white meat.

The Bible also says that slaves should obey their masters, but the system of slavery is still counter to the message of Christianity.

Colossians 3:22, "Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord."

Most Islamic rulers have laid down very severe penalties for this type of rape. The allowance of sex with slaves in the Quar'an is really controversial, and there's no evidence that Mohammed raped slave women.

And the Ottoman Empire wasn't actually that Islamic. The emperors basically did what they wanted, ignoring most of the parts that prohibit a man to have more than four wives, or listen to music with instruments, or enjoy paintings of people. The Ottoman practice of taking anybody as slaves (as opposed to prisoners captured through Jihad) is actually banned by the Quar'an.

 

[Dude Abides]

Its so odd how religious ideology is the only type of ideology where, when its adherents go on rampages, people will go to foolish lengths to pretend the ideology has nothing at all to do with it.

 

[Wellscha]

The Bible also says that slaves should obey their masters, but the system of slavery is still counter to the message of Christianity.

Colossians 3:22, "Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord."

Most Islamic rulers have laid down very severe penalties for this type of rape. The allowance of sex with slaves in the Quar'an is really controversial, and there's no evidence that Mohammed raped slave women.

And the Ottoman Empire wasn't actually that Islamic. The emperors basically did what they wanted, ignoring most of the parts that prohibit a man to have more than four wives, or listen to music with instruments, or enjoy paintings of people. The Ottoman practice of taking anybody as slaves (as opposed to prisoners captured through Jihad) is actually banned by the Quar'an.

Muhammed did take a sexual slave, a coptic girl by the name of maria.

 

[AquaMotley]

Okay, I'll just accept quotes and explanations from a hate site then.

I really don't care if you accept those quotes from that website or others that say the exact same thing. ISIS seems to take them quite literally though. I wonder why. Maybe because it's not true Islam and they're just a bunch of misguided haters -OR- the Quran
is littered with verses that condones and imposes these actions, and they're from the highest authority itself. Not only that, you'll be eternally rewarded for them in heaven.

I wonder.

 

[Ponn]

That's a crime under sharia, the one and only source of human rights according to the Organization For Islamic Cooperation who speak for all muslims.

Yea it is illegal I guess.

A Norwegian woman was sentenced to 16 months in jail in Dubai after she reported she was raped. The charge? Having sex outside of marriage, drinking alcohol and perjury, reports the BBC.

the guy on the other hand

Her alleged attacker reportedly received a 13-month sentence, not for rape but rather for having extra-marital sex and drinking alcohol.

and this

Eleven-year-old Nada al-Ahdal may have escaped her arranged marriage to a much older man, but every year, millions of underage Yemeni girls don’t.

That’s perhaps the ultimate takeaway of a chilling video that rocketed to the top of YouTube and Reddit on Monday. In it, al-Ahdal -- a skinny, baby-faced 11-year-old whose parents tried twice to sell her into marriage -- rails against Yemen’s child marriages and vows to never return to her family.

I mean these things happen and are reported and not even associated with ISIS. I'm not saying all Muslims practice this but just like religion in U.S., it can get skewed to commit horrible acts.

In regards to Sharia Law

Yemen has backtracked on protecting girls from forced marriage. In 1999, Yemen’s parliament, citing religious grounds, abolished the legal minimum age for marriage for girls and boys, which was then 15. In 2009, a majority in parliament voted to set 17 as the minimum age, but a group of lawmakers, contending that reinstating a minimum age would be contrary to Sharia (Islamic law), used a parliamentary procedure to prevent the law from going into effect

 

[Skyzard]

I really don't care if you accept those quotes from that website or others that say the exact same thing. ISIS seems to take them quite literally though. I wonder why. Maybe because it's not true Islam and they're just a bunch of misguided haters -OR- the Quran
is littered with verses that condones and imposes these actions, and they're from the highest authority itself. Not only that, you'll be eternally rewarded for them in heaven.

I wonder.

Muslims all over the world, even some that facilitated them (Saudi Arabia) are against them. They risk their lives burning the ISIS flag, even though it contains words which are traditionally respected.

But no, the majority billion muslims don't know better. They aren't as good muslims as ISIS members according to you.

There are practices that are accepted these days and practices that aren't.

No one is fooling anyone, but hate mongers will try and have their sway none the less.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Absolutely vile.
And I see there is scriptural support for this sort of barbaric behavior.

 

[AquaMotley]

Muslims all over the world, even some that facilitated them (Saudi Arabia) are against them. They risk their lives burning the ISIS flag, even though it contains words which are traditionally respected.

But no, the majority billion muslims don't know better. They aren't as good muslims as ISIS members according to you.

There are practices that are accepted these days and practices that aren't.

No one is fooling anyone, but hate mongers will try and have their sway none the less.

That many muslims reject the vile and murderous actions of ISIS is good and should be normal behaviour for any humane person (of faith or not). But if those same muslims were to argue that ISIS acts outside of Islamic teachings
and its behaviour is not condoned in the Quran than they are dishonest, and that was the point I'm making.

I will not be made out for a hate monger because I don't accept divertion of blame from the many apologists. Of which the overwhelming majority are muslim. A clear distinction.

I don't hate muslims (or christians, jews ...whatever). I do hate your bullshit.

 

[dripdripsplash]

One thing jihadis and islamophobes agree upon, is their interpretation of Islam.

Very telling.

 

[Skyzard]

That many muslims reject the vile and murderous actions of ISIS is good and should be normal behaviour for any humane person (of faith or not). But if those same muslims were to argue that ISIS acts outside of Islamic teachings
and its behaviour is not condoned in the Quran than they are dishonest, and that was the point I'm making.

I will not be made out for a hate monger because I don't accept divertion of blame from the many apologists. Of which the overwhelming majority are muslim. A clear distinction.

I don't hate muslims (or christians, jews ...whatever). I do hate your bullshit.

How did you come to understand the teachings of Islam so well?

Where you personally taught those hateful things you claim are being spread?

No, it was a hate site.


ISIS is unislamic - if you lack humanity as you say yourself, then you are not a good muslim. Islam teaches you a lot. Not just about old wars.


What you are doing is EXACTLY hate mongering, I will not allow you to pretend otherwise.

 

[SmokyDave]

One thing jihadis and islamophobes agree upon, is their interpretation of Islam.

Very telling.

I don't think 'islamophobes' are suggesting that there is only one correct interpretation though. I think they're just pointing out why 'No True Muslim' is an utter fallacy.

 

[beast786]

One thing jihadis and islamophobes agree upon, is their interpretation of Islam.

Very telling.

And the rest of the Muslims ignore it as if those verse don't exist

 

[Dyno]

Muslims all over the world, even some that facilitated them (Saudi Arabia) are against them.

You brought up the Saudis, the Wahabbis in your defense of a kinder, gentler Islam. Saudi Arabia, where you can still get beheaded by the government and women are arrested for driving cars. The same Saudis who used oil money to spread their harsh and brutal interpertation of Islam throughout the Middle East, building madrassas and staffing them with Imams so that the Wahabbi view is passed on to others which is what brought us to this place today.

If you invoke Saudi Arabia then you are saying they are Muslims just like you and that is how you lose this debate.

 

[Skyzard]

You brought up the Saudis, the Wahabbis in your defense of a kinder, gentler Islam. Saudi Arabia, where you can still get beheaded by the government and women are arrested for driving cars. The same Saudis who used oil money to spread their harsh and brutal interpertation of Islam throughout the Middle East, building madrassas and staffing them with Imams so that the Wahabbi view is passed on to others which is what brought us to this place today.

If you invoke Saudi Arabia then you are saying they are Muslims just like you and that is how you lose this debate.

I said even Saudi Arabia (who financed them) turned their back on them publicly.

 

[Dyno]

I said even Saudi Arabia (who financed them) turned their back on them publicly.

Are Saudis real Muslims? True Muslims?

 

[Skyzard]

Are Saudis real Muslims? True Muslims?

They are muslims you seem to despise, and yet they still turned their back on ISIS.

That was the point.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

It's sad that I can't really take this as being factual since many pieces like this justifying a future conflict end up being very poor journalism.

 

[Dyno]

They are muslims you seem to despise, and yet they still turned their back on ISIS.

That was the point.

I despise no one, I just read the newspapers. And you cannot answer my question, can you? If the Saudis are Muslim then so is ISIS. I don't like that fact, you don't like that fact, but the fact remains.

All religions have the power to turn entire generations into serial killers. In our short time there just happen to be Muslims proving that point while they try to carve out a new country.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Sometimes evil exists and needs to be stamped out.

I think ISIS qualifies. Decapitating journalists, sex slaves, disgusting.

 

[Skyzard]

I despise no one, I just read the newspapers. And you cannot answer my question, can you? If the Saudis are Muslim then so is ISIS. I don't like that fact, you don't like that fact, but the fact remains.

All religions have the power to turn entire generations into serial killers. In our short time there just happen to be Muslims proving that point while they try to carve out a new country.

I thought I answered your question by saying Saudis are muslim who turned their back on ISIS. ISIS can say they are muslim too.

They aren't good ones though, which is what some people here are trying to actually say.

 

[beast786]

I thought I answered your question by saying Saudis are muslim who turned their back on ISIS. ISIS can say they are muslim too.

They aren't good ones though, which is what some people here are trying to actually say.

Are Saudis good muslim?

Are Abu Haneefah, Malik, Shafi'i, and Ahmad bin Hanbal good Muslims ?

You can't use your personal bias as someone good or bad muslim and then turn around and critique other for doing the same.

ISIS are who they are because quran and Hadith open the pandora box for that type of interpretation . Just like you have yours

ISIS is as muslim as any above as the use quran and Hadith as there doctrine like any other muslim sect

 

[Dyno]

I thought I answered your question by saying Saudis are muslim who turned their back on ISIS. ISIS can say they are muslim too.

ISIS can say they are Muslim... What a careful selection of words. Still I feel we're making progress here. This is now a much more nuanced opinion instead of those who flat out deny that ISIS is Islamic.

They aren't good ones though, which is what some people here are trying to actually say.

This is something that never needs to be said. None of us believe that ISIS are the good ones. Everyone knows that they are indeed the very bad ones.

 

[Druz]

I think its funny people are labeling ISIS as not a group of muslims. They're behaving very similarly to every report that comes out of the area.

Young girl gets raped? Gets honor killed or forced to marry. This is islam.

 

[Brian Griffin]

Kill 'em. Kill them all.

 

[Skyzard]

Are Saudis good muslim?

Are Abu Haneefah, Malik, Shafi'i, and Ahmad bin Hanbal good Muslims ?

You can't use your personal bias as someone good or bad muslim and then turn around and critique other for doing the same.

ISIS are who they are because quran and Hadith open the pandora box for that type of interpretation . Just like you have yours

ISIS is as muslim as any above as the use quran and Hadith as there doctrine like any other muslim sect

If someone kills children, then they are a bad muslim. They are a bad person too, but they are also a bad muslim. Same for raping, same for harming innocent people. I don't care how you justify it to yourself or others, or others justifying it for you, Islam teaches you to know better. If you don't then you're not good at Islam.

ISIS can say they are Muslim... What a careful selection of words. Still I feel we're making progress here. This is now a much more nuanced opinion instead of those who flat out deny that ISIS is Islamic.



This is something that never needs to be said. None of us believe that ISIS are the good ones. Everyone knows that they are indeed the very bad ones.

You'd hope.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Absolutely vile.
And I see there is scriptural support for this sort of barbaric behavior.

I'm not muslim and I've not read their book. That being said, the biggest problem in the middle east has been and continues to be education. Specifically, the ability to read and write. I don't know what the numbers are off-hand, but an incredibly high proportion of the population in these nations are illiterate. The old adage that "knowledge is power" is no more true than it is in the middle east where those with power and an agenda tell the people what they want them to hear and believe...and the people lack the ability to discern truth from fiction because they can't read.

A cleric can twist context and perspective of Islamic texts, indoctrinate and influence masses of people without resistance because the people can't read and come to a better understanding themselves. Much like Christian churches and establishments did in decades and centuries past.

Access to knowledge is required for that region to improve itself.

Then comes the matter of poverty. No matter the nation or time in history, we see that the underprivileged are often times happy and willing to oppress other poor people to make themselves feel powerful. To that end, things like negative religion, bigotry and racism tend to take hold of people because they give people avenues to direct and release their anger and life's frustrations. It gives them someone to blame or something to keep them from meditating over their own deficiencies. The poorest among us are always going to be the most susceptible to these angry violent groups, whether we're taking about ISIL or the Ku Klux Klan. The same combination of poverty, ignorance, and anger given form, an excuse, and an avenue to vent.

Economic empowerment -- which gives the opportunity to support oneself and chart a better future -- is also required for that region to improve itself.

Literacy, poverty, hunger. All have to be addressed if the end goal is the reduction in power of groups that prey on those people who fall into those groups. Until they are, this region will continue to see the same violence and genocidal tendencies we've seen for decades.

$0.02

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I despise no one, I just read the newspapers. And you cannot answer my question, can you? If the Saudis are Muslim then so is ISIS. I don't like that fact, you don't like that fact, but the fact remains.

All religions have the power to turn entire generations into serial killers. In our short time there just happen to be Muslims proving that point while they try to carve out a new country.

Probably time to stop reading The Sun and Daily Mail.

 

[MacNille]

I hate the "no true scotsman" argument that people use when they are talking about ISIS. They are muslims! You can't change that. They think that they are following the "true" way of Islam. They are fucking idiots but still.

 

[beast786]

If someone kills children, then they are a bad muslim. They are a bad person too, but they are also a bad muslim. Same for raping, same for harming innocent people. I don't care how you justify it to yourself or others, or others justifying it for you, Islam teaches you to know better. If you don't then you're not good at Islam.

.

Justify myself?

Didn't god killed and drowned in boiling sea kids /women etc in Noah ? Doesn't god in quran talk about slavery women in bounty? Aren't there Hadith of Muhammad marrying and having sex with 9 year old ( how can a 9 year old consent to sex)

You are acting as if ISIS made there rules out of there asses.

According to ISIS this is the better the quran and Hadith is teaching

 

[Dyno]

Probably time to stop reading The Sun and Daily Mail.

Oh dear.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...surge-saudi-beheadings-20148211414761155.html

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Oh dear.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...surge-saudi-beheadings-20148211414761155.html

It was meant more as some light-hearted relief in an otherwise extremely depressing thread.

 

[Obscura]

Fucking disgusting. These people are evil, worthless scum, and I hope they are erased from the surface of the Earth sooner rather than later.

But also, I wish people (here and elsewhere) would stop being so damn apologetic towards religion. "This isn't Islam", etc. Isn't it? It's a version of Islam that doesn't align with most modem interpretations, that's for sure, but do you honestly think these people don't believe they are acting in accordance with their religion? They call themselves the "Islamic State", for fuck's sake. Most of what they're doing, if not everything, is probably supported by some passage in their holy book, and they probably really do believe with all their hearts they're acting in accordance with what their god wants. In the end, it's really just another manifestation of the ridiculous pick-and-choose nature of religions based on old books. It's just a particularly extreme, vile one. Who's to say their interpretation is wrong and yours is right, just because theirs goes against everything a civilized person would consider decent? What makes their version any less valid, if it is indeed somehow supported by some interpretation (all pretty much equally arbitrary) of the texts? While I obviously think these people's actions are undefendable, I'm not so sure they're following a less "true" version of Islam. You picking the parts YOU think are defendable and dismissing everything else as "not Islam" (or whichever religion we happen to be talking about) doesn't necessarily make your version any more right. But I'm getting a bit carried away here. Again, stop being so defensive and apologetic toward religion. It's not a "protected" subject that cannot be criticized. Or at least it shouldn't be.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Thank you.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Tyrants have been using religion as an excuse to butcher, rape and murder for millennia. But the religion is just a convenient excuse. Let's not pretend that without religion this world would suddenly be some idealistic utopia. Groups would still butcher, rape and murder.

People trying to argue that religion is the culprit because they have an ideological slant against religion end up missing the point that humans are suffering tremendously. Action is needed. Not self-felatting arguments about God concepts.

 

[beast786]

Tyrants have been using religion as an excuse to butcher, rape and murder for millennia. But the religion is just a convenient excuse. Let's not pretend that without religion this world would suddenly be some idealistic utopia. Groups would still butcher, rape and murder.

People trying to argue that religion is the culprit because they have an ideological slant against religion end up missing the point that humans are suffering tremendously. Action is needed. Not self-felatting arguments about God concepts.

You are right crusades or 9/11 had nothing to do with religion. It's all in our minds.

So if religions is not cause of every conflict in the world that mean it has no blame for any. Makes perfect sense

 

[Nesotenso]

Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"

Qur'an (8:69) - "But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good"

Bukhari (41.598) - Slaves are property. They cannot be freed if an owner has outstanding debt, but can be used to pay off the debt.

Bukhari (62:137) - An account of women taken as slaves in battle by Muhammad's men after their husbands and fathers were killed. The woman were raped with Muhammad's approval.

Bukhari (34:432) - Another account of females taken captive and raped with Muhammad's approval. In this case it is evident that the Muslims intend on selling the women after raping them because they are concerned about devaluing their price by impregnating them. Muhammad is asked about coitus interruptus.

Bukhari (47.765) - A woman is rebuked by Muhammad for freeing a slave girl. The prophet tells her that she would have gotten a greater heavenly reward by giving her to a relative (as a slave).

Abu Dawud 1814 - "...[Abu Bakr] He then began to beat [his slave] him while the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) was smiling and saying: Look at this man who is in the sacred state (putting on ihram), what is he doing?" The future first caliph of Islam is beating his slave for losing a camel while Muhammad looks on in apparent amusement.

That's just a small collection from the Qu'ran and Hadith concerning just slavery ...it goes on and on. ISIS does exactly the same. All the beheadings, the forced conversions, the rapes and the slavery is all condoned in your holy books.

guess which website all this traces back to.

edit: seems it has already been pointed out. Junior is just talking out of his ass.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I'm not muslim and I've not read their book. That being said, the biggest problem in the middle east has been and continues to be education.

the root of all human problems is typically education.

it's unfortunate that we haven't developed education bombs yet.

 

[AquaMotley]

How did you come to understand the teachings of Islam so well?

Where you personally taught those hateful things you claim are being spread?

No, it was a hate site.


ISIS is unislamic - if you lack humanity as you say yourself, then you are not a good muslim. Islam teaches you a lot. Not just about old wars.


What you are doing is EXACTLY hate mongering, I will not allow you to pretend otherwise.

You don't have to be a level 80 Islamic scholar to know and read oppressive, inhumane verses from a book. You can spot the atrocities and commands for violence in the Bible pretty easily as well.

Also, don't pretend all those imams/clerics that spout all that hatefull bullshit didn't study scripture for decades. Or would you argue they're not real muslims as well. It's only you and like minded people that follow the true Islam.

I'm sure pointing out that hypocrisy makes me a hate-monger. No. You can't take criticism. Your religion can't take criticism.

guess which website all this traces back to.

edit: seems it has already been pointed out. Junior is just talking out of his ass.

At least "Junior" reads all the relevant posts before he posts himself.

Also, those verse translations can be found all over the internet. Better to tackle the verses than the website they're on don't you think?

 

[daniels]

guess which website all this traces back to.

edit: seems it has already been pointed out. Junior is just talking out of his ass.

I mean yeah people take issue with whatever website these quotes are coming from but no one is offering an explanation or excuse which you know is actually the point.
So can you please tell me if the quotes are wrong, miss translated, how you would interpret them or a source to the true translation?
Based on your reaction it is apperantly obvious whats wrong with them so please enlighten me.

 

[Dyno]

Tyrants have been using religion as an excuse to butcher, rape and murder for millennia. But the religion is just a convenient excuse. Let's not pretend that without religion this world would suddenly be some idealistic utopia. Groups would still butcher, rape and murder.

People trying to argue that religion is the culprit because they have an ideological slant against religion end up missing the point that humans are suffering tremendously. Action is needed. Not self-felatting arguments about God concepts.

If what you're saying was true then ISIS would be just murdering anyone. Instead they are targetting non-Sunnis. Religion not only gives people like this a target, it gives them the delusion of righteousness. It further fans the flames.

 

[rambis]

Lol do you really believe this shit?? Of course you can and you should!
With your train of thought any critisims or caricature of religion should not be allowed "because people practice it".
Do you really think it should not be allowed to criticizes or make fun of a particular religion?
But whatever i dont want to derail this thread any more so thats the last word from me on this.

You're trying way too hard to take what I say and run home here. I haven't said anything about criticizing religion or denying any other free speak about religion. I'm talking about a very specific scenario. Thats (

(a) one poster literally saying fuck a whole billion people group of people because a sub group of extremists decided to wreak havoc. Saying shit like its a "logical conclusion" or. "People are unreliable and petty and nobody can be trusted with religion."


(b) you sitting here and displaying a profound ignorance of what religion is.

)


Im a proud supporter of free speech, but I also realize sweeping generalizations about any major ethnicity is usually frowned upon and usually is piss poor taste.

Fucking disgusting. These people are evil, worthless scum, and I hope they are erased from the surface of the Earth sooner rather than later.

But also, I wish people (here and elsewhere) would stop being so damn apologetic towards religion. "This isn't Islam", etc. Isn't it? It's a version of Islam that doesn't align with most modem interpretations, that's for sure, but do you honestly think these people don't believe they are acting in accordance with their religion? They call themselves the "Islamic State", for fuck's sake. Most of what they're doing, if not everything, is probably supported by some passage in their holy book, and they probably really do believe with all their hearts they're acting in accordance with what their god wants. In the end, it's really just another manifestation of the ridiculous pick-and-choose nature of religions based on old books. It's just a particularly extreme, vile one. Who's to say their interpretation is wrong and yours is right, just because theirs goes against everything a civilized person would consider decent? What makes their version any less valid, if it is indeed somehow supported by some interpretation (all pretty much equally arbitrary) of the texts? While I obviously think these people's actions are undefendable, I'm not so sure they're following a less "true" version of Islam. You picking the parts YOU think are defendable and dismissing everything else as "not Islam" (or whichever religion we happen to be talking about) doesn't necessarily make your version any more right. But I'm getting a bit carried away here. Again, stop being so defensive and apologetic toward religion. It's not a "protected" subject that cannot be criticized. Or at least it shouldn't be.

I felt like this was aimed at me, so I'll reply.

First off ISIS is a radical group that isn't even recognized as a muslim state. They came out of the gates announcing laws and principles that nobody in Islam have ever practiced, which is why they've garnered so little support, even amongst other radical Muslims. Just because some clowns woke up one day and decided to call themselves Muslim doesn't mean they should be considered Muslim and used to be judged as Muslims.

Secondly, I really can't comprehend you're mini-rant in the second paragraph. Are you really arguing for ethical discrimination and ethnic mocking? And the fact that you described religion as pick and choose really shows your level of understanding of it.

People don't pick and choose certain aspects to follow in their religion. Religion is a personal faith, even though in some religions many people gather and practice. But many times people who claim to follow certain religions have differing faith or beliefs on certain things. That's why there are denominations, sub-groups of people who believe that the way they interpret a religion is correct.


ISIS is neither here nor there. They aren't even recognized by anybody as an Islamic caliph, which is coincidentally there biggest reason for all this chest thumping.

Anyways, I really hope you change your monist view toward religion.

 

[Scoot McNairy]

The interesting thing about seeing people in real life discuss the whole ISIS thing is watching people keep trying to

a) not mention Islam or religion;
b) when it is brought up, keep talking about how violence/rape/subjugation/slavery is unIslamic.

I don't know how this happened, but somewhere along the way, the political left - in both the US and the UK - took a wrong turn.

Things got all mixed up. It's not that the right wing are wholly correct on this issue: the reason the right wing are truthful about Islam is because they want to show how great Christianity is, and this means that their target isn't religion as a whole, but Islam. And sometimes they get fuck up (and sometimes intentionally so), and mix up hated of religion with hatred of race. So, no, the right wing can't be relied on to lead the fight against Islam, because they will turn it in to a fight against ethnic minorities. This is a battle that the left, on both sides of the pond, needs to take up, the way it did with climate change, gay marriage, and various other social issues.

I think the central reason for the behavior of the left is that when they hear criticism of Islam, what they 'feel' is that this is basically racism. But it's not. It never was. There's nothing wrong with criticising Islam, but if you do that in public, then no matter how logically you put it, The Left would always interpret it as racism, and feel uncomfortable, and tell you to shut up and stop being so horrible about peoples beliefs and use the word 'Islamophobia' - which is just the word that pisses me more off more than any other.

 

[-COOLIO-]

The interesting thing about seeing people in real life discuss the whole ISIS thing is watching people keep trying to

a) not mention Islam or religion;
b) when it is brought up, keep talking about how violence/rape/subjugation/slavery is unIslamic.

I don't know how this happened, but somewhere along the way, the political left - in both the US and the UK - took a wrong turn.

Things got all mixed up. It's not that the right wing are wholly correct on this issue: the reason the right wing are truthful about Islam is because they want to show how great Christianity is, and this means that their target isn't religion as a whole, but Islam. And sometimes they get fuck up (and sometimes intentionally so), and mix up hated of religion with hatred of race. So they can't be relied on to lead the fight against Islam. This is a battle that the left, on both sides of the pond, needs to take up, the way it did with climate change, gay marriage, and various other social issues.

I think the central reason for all this is that when the left hears criticism of Islam, what they 'feel' is that this is basically racism. But it's not. It never was. There's nothing wrong with criticising Islam, but if you do that in public, then no matter how logically you put it, The Left would always interpret it as racism, and feel uncomfortable, and tell you to shut up and stop being so horrible about peoples beliefs.

i think i agree with what youre saying

criticizing religion X currently paints you as racist, xenophobe, or intolerant in the eyes of some. which is stupid. sure you definitely dont want to be a jerk about it and bad mouth islam in a mosque or christanity in a church, but expressing a negative view of a major religion shouldn't be seen as inherently wrong.

people can say 'i hate scientology' and most wouldn't bat an eye. it should be that way with any religion. as long as you dont belittle and vilify the people who happen practice religion peacefully.

i think metal gear solid 4 is the greatest game ever but i readily accept the fact that many people hate it.

 

[Shredderi]

This is fucking horrible.

 

[daniels]

(a) one poster literally saying fuck a whole billion people group of people because a sub group of extremists decided to wreak havoc. Saying shit like its a "logical conclusion" or. "People are unreliable and petty and nobody can be trusted with religion."

Im a proud supporter of free speech, but I also realize sweeping generalizations about any major ethnicity is usually frowned upon and usually is piss poor taste.

But he didnt say "fuck the billions of people that practise islam" and it really doesnt look good that you have to invent stuff so you have any point at all.
He just said islam treats woman worse than man and that islam can basically suck a dick and yes it is allowed to critisies a religion.
If i say christianity can suck a dick i dont mean everyone that practies christianity that would be crazy do you really not get that??

And to your second point about ethnicity ....uhhhh this is about religion??
I dont even know why you bring ethnicity in this no one said anything about it and islam, christianity or basically any religion is practiced by many different ethnicitys.

 

[rambis]

The interesting thing about seeing people in real life discuss the whole ISIS thing is watching people keep trying to

a) not mention Islam or religion;
b) when it is brought up, keep talking about how violence/rape/subjugation/slavery is unIslamic.

(a) What is there to bring up about Islam? Or religion?

(b) What is interesting about this? Are you here to tell me it is Islamic?

 

[Metallix87]

(a) What is there to bring up about Islam? Or religion?

(b) What is interesting about this? Are you here to tell me it is Islamic?

(a) The fact that these are radical Islamic terrorists using their Holy Book, and select passages from it, to do the bidding of Allah as they see it.

(b) Well, it IS Islamic. Radical Islamic, but still Islamic. This is a major problem with all religions, and for people to pretend that the Quran can't be taken in this way is a bit ludicrous. There are many passages in that Book that speak of acts and attitudes that, today, a progressive society would condemn outright. These individuals are using those passages to justify their actions, and that is a major issue with religion as a whole, but especially Islam in today's world.

 

[Rastafarian42]

That's absolutely disgusting and incredibly un-Islamic. These people need to be stopped.

Truly Despicable this story breaks my heart not only as a muslim but as a human being.

 

[rambis]

But he didnt say "fuck the billions of people that practise islam" and it really doesnt look good that you have to invent stuff so you have any point at all.
He just said islam treats woman worse than man and that islam can basically suck a dick and yes it is allowed to critisies a religion.
If i say christianity can suck a dick i dont mean everyone that practies christianity that would be crazy do you really not get that??

And to your second point about ethnicity ....uhhhh this is about religion??
I dont even know why you bring ethnicity in this no one said anything about it and islam, christianity or basically any religion is practiced by many different ethnicitys.

Inventing what? That he said that rape and slavery is a " logical conclusion for the Islamic? He didn't even deny what he said, in fact, he doubled down and said christianity too.

Also, Religion is an ethnicity. Just like race or nationality.

 

[Ambition]

These people need to disappear, I don't care how they just have to.

 

[rambis]

(a) The fact that these are radical Islamic terrorists using their Holy Book, and select passages from it, to do the bidding of Allah as they see it.

(b) Well, it IS Islamic. Radical Islamic, but still Islamic. This is a major problem with all religions, and for people to pretend that the Quran can't be taken in this way is a bit ludicrous. There are many passages in that Book that speak of acts and attitudes that, today, a progressive society would condemn outright. These individuals are using those passages to justify their actions, and that is a major issue with religion as a whole, but especially Islam in today's world.

How so? Because they say they are?