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Itagaki defeat TECMO & words about his next game
- Thread starter rockman zx
- Start date
Earl Cazone said:
Not really.
I NEED SCISSORS said:
RavenFox replied to you with that question. Not I NEED SCISSORS.
It didn't even seem like he was that serious.
Point is, no one thinks Hayashi is a master, really. He still needs to prove himself, but he has potential. I don't think anyone should count him out.
PJX said:
Yes, he was. Ninja Gaiden 2 had so many fatal flaws, that anything less buggy would've been a vast improvement. Hell, anything removing those fucking exploding jellyfish would've been a vast improvement.
This is not to say that Itagaki wasn't rushed, or that if he'd polished things it wouldn't have been better than NGS2, but as it stands NGS2 is a superior title for the average action game follower.
Practically no one here, myself included, is an average action game follower. I still recognize the value that NGS2 has as a game. I have seen and played everything that NG2 has to offer, and I still prefer NGS2 in a number of ways.
iconoclast
Member
GuardianE said:
The pacing in Sigma 2 is just completely off. The fights on Master Ninja aren't intense any more. Ryu was a one man army in NG2 because he had to actually fight an army of enemies every stage in. :lol But in Sigma 2, he fights what, a maximum of 5 enemies per encounter? That would be fine if this were NGB, but they expanded on the combat so much that it's just trivial.
I mean they still made a lot of good (and bad) changes to NGS2 and I can understand someone preferring it over NG2, but I personally think NG2 is far more fun to play.
Plus, Sigma 2 desperately needs weapon survival DLC. None of that mind-blowingly atrocious co-op junk.
iconoclast said:
Yeah, I agree it has its problems. And a lot of the enemy balancing didn't take into account how much faster and deadlier Ryu actually was. Changes were made, some very good and some pretty bad. They still made it so that you take even more damage in MNM for NGS2, dying in one hit pretty consistently.
One thing that I specifically liked, balance wise, is that I never really got any cheap deaths in MNM in NGS2. If you died, it was because you made a mistake. In NG2, you could die very easily for a very silly reason... something you had no control over.
Weapon survival should really have been added. I'd definitely like some of that.
GuardianE said:
Let's say I spend about 2 years sculpting an impressive work of art. Due to time constraints, I am unable to clean up after myself. The work is complete, but it needs to be dusted and someone needs to clean it up and pick up the wood chips. Are you the superior artist for coming in and merely cleaning up after me? That makes no fucking sense.
Itagaki was the man behind Ninja Gaiden Black and Ninja Gaiden 2. He single-handedly saved Tecmo with his DOA series. Hayashi has made ports of his game. Wtf are people even arguing here?
ultim8p00 said:
People are arguing that NGS2 beat NG2 in terms of polish. Which is true. How it came about is irrelevant.
I don't think people are shortchanging Itagaki's contribution, but rather saying that Hayashi played a role in making NGS2 a cleaner title... what that actually means for Hayashi has yet to be seen.
canova said:
NG2, despite being a decent action game, is not art. I don't think the analogy works because with art, you can appreciate "design flaws." In a game, there's no reason for them to exist. Not all the changes that Hayashi made were blemishes. Some of them shifted the focus of the game in a way that wasn't agreeable to you. I get that. I still think that NGS2 did do better than NG2.
And, of course, it should have considering it came out a year later and had the entire game of NG2 as a foundation, so no one's saying that Hayashi is the messiah of NG.
GuardianE said:
That's not what you are saying here:
How was he beaten by his student? Explain this. Hayashi made NGS2 a cleaner title, fair enough. But how does that mean he beat Itagaki? The positive additions that Hayashi made are mostly superficial: better framerate, better graphics, more levels, more weapons, more characters. These are nice and appreciated, but do nothing to better the game on a fundamental level.
However, most of the design and fundamental changes he attempted to make are negative, and demonstrate that he clearly lacks the experience of his master:
1. Poorer implementation combat system: other characters pale in comparison to Ryu even though they basically use the same system.
2. Poorer implementation of new weapons: the cannon is useless and feels out of place while the fang is just a re-skinned Dabilahro
3. Poorer understanding of NG2's design: by reducing the amount of enemies and making them damage sponges, the combat feels easier and boring in comparison. Ryu's increased arsenal of moves from NGB was countered by a ridiculous amount of enemies always trying to kill him. This made the combat in NG2 visceral and destructive. By leaving that intact and reducing enemy count, the combat starts to tilt into the Dynasty Warrior type zone because Ryu is overpowered.
These 3 fundamental shortcomings demonstrate that Hayashi lacks the understanding that Itagaki has. It's easy to add more levels and up resolutions, just as it's easy for a student to wear the master's Gi and look like a master.
GuardianE said:
That's exactly what you are saying by claiming he beat his master.
JumpJeff84
Member
Excited for whatever he does next based solely on how much I fucking love Ninja Gaiden.
Never got that much into part 2, but I've beat the original about 4 times. I LOVE Bayonetta, but something about NG...might be my favorite game ever. Might be time for a 5th playthrough...
Never got that much into part 2, but I've beat the original about 4 times. I LOVE Bayonetta, but something about NG...might be my favorite game ever. Might be time for a 5th playthrough...
GuardianE said:
if music, movie and film can be considered as some form of art, I don't know why can't a video game be considered as art. So yes the analogy works. Itagaki is like the old master, Hayashi is just working on the master's workshop. Hayashi's additions, overall, if we count it as a whole, totally ruined what NG2 is all about
RockmanWhore
Member
iconoclast said:
To me this proves that NG2 is flawed to the roots. They expended Ryu's abilities too much, the UT charge too quickly, the counter are too easy to place, the enemies defense/AI isn't as tight as it was in NG1, in the end you need tons of baddies to have fun.
But that's the bullshit enemy placement that killed me, the underwater dragon, the shitty sewer fish with it's undodgable attacks, the crazy explosive shuriken spam. I haven't finished NG2 because it's too shitty and unfair. NGS2 on the other hand, I finished it in a few days and it was hard to stop playing. It's not as good as the first game, and I wishes that Ryu wasn't as overpowered, but I had fun playing Sigma 2, NG2 just pissed me off. Maybe I'm not skilled enought, I don't know, I have yet to play Sigma 2 in master Ninja, I'm playing in path of the warrior right now, and it's true that the game is a bit on the easy side, I hope that you're too harsh with the Master Ninja difficulty :/
RockmanWhore said:
well that's what NG franchise is all about, hard-to-the-core. Even Itagaki admitted himself, he's gonna make it hard, he won't have some dancing enemies waiting for you to pound on, or some punching bags for you to look good. His enemies are gonna kill you and kill you quickly You can cry and whine for cheap attacks or whatever, but if you put NG2 on, you better put-up or shut-up.
THAT's what NG is all about. It doesn't make any excuse nor it lets you make any
Earl Cazone
Member
i am btw a fan of doa as well. i wish he is going to make another fighting game - the doa4 netcode is unbelievably well written. no other online fighting mode is as fluid
canova said:
Please don't twist my words. I never said that video games can't be an artform. I definitely feel like they can be, and have been. I just don't think that Ninja Gaiden is. The analogy doesn't work for me because I don't consider Ninja Gaiden a work of art. It might work for you, but I don't buy it.
In your example of movies, music, and film, just because an entire medium can be an artform doesn't mean that every entry is a work of art. I wouldn't consider Transformers: Rise of the Fallen to be a work of art. I wouldn't consider Die Hard to be a work of art, even though it's an awesome movie.
ultim8p00 said:
That was a poor choice for a quote. You chose a quote where I was rephrasing someone else's comment. It wasn't my own.
Allow me to reiterate. I never said that Hayashi has surpassed his master. I said that the dude has potential and I look forward to seeing what he can offer. I also said that there are some aspects of NGS2 that I like more than NG2, including the polish. This only makes sense since it came out so much later and had the NG2 foundation. None of these should be offensive to anyone.
canova said:
That's not what the NG franchise has been about if you've actually played NG, NGB, and NGS, every one through MNM and doing all the missions.
Only with NG2 can you be killed when you haven't made any mistakes. I'm speaking from experience. I've beaten all three of those games on every difficulty. I've beaten NG2 on MNM and all the mission mode on every difficulty. I'm not an action game newb or whatever. I have experience with these games, and the introduction to cheap deaths were in NG2, not anything prior.
iconoclast said:
where do you categorize the health buff for every single enemy ? honestly.. it kinda ruined the game for me..I cant two shot people and feel like a ninja anymore :lol
oh hello there..I take it you never played the team missions then ?
edit : K I just realized you said MNM but IIRC the cheap AI moves still exist in MNM.
Yurt said:
You call me out correctly. I haven't beaten all of the team missions. The fact that you have to do them as a team sort of ruins it since your partner is more of a liability than a help most of the time. I got close, then lost interest because other games came up. I was frustrated by them (as I expect to be), but they were easier than the mission mode in NG2, if not for the co-op aspect which made it harder.
RockmanWhore said:
Just want to point out a few things:
Instant UT attacks have been possible since Ninja Gaiden 1. You can SPAM the counter in NG1 with no punishment, whereas a missed counter will leave you vulnerable in NG2. As far as the Ninja AI is concerned, I have to be much more wary of their presence and placement in NG2; one dismembered Spider Ninja can mean instant death if youre not paying attention.
HiResDes said:
Yeah, this should be really clear to most people who have played the game since the original Xbox.
I mean, you COULD die a cheap death in NG1. You got hit once and combo'd till death, but a) you got hit that first time by something you could have avoided, and b) that instance was incredibly rare... usually reserved for fights like Dual Almas.
To be fair, I don't think "giving them crazy health" is accurate. NG2's enemies probably had less health than most enemies in NG1. And considering that Ryu does more damage in less time during NG2, it makes him tear through most enemies. There are simply far more enemies at a time. He can just die quicker and by things that were unavoidable.
In Ninja Gaiden, every enemy feels somewhat intimidating... especially when playing for the first time. In NG2, they die very very quickly, but they swarm in numbers. I don't find the latter to be nearly as rewarding.
iconoclast
Member
Yurt said:
Well since they cut so many enemies out of each encounter (I'd say well over half the enemies in the game were removed compared to NG2 - just a guess though), they kinda had to buff their health right? For regular enemies, I don't mind. But some bosses just have way too much health in Sigma 2.
The health buff really becomes annoying when you make it to Ayane's chapter in MNM. Ugh.
A Tonfa ET/UT still instant kills most (if not all) regular enemies anyway.
