BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Enjoy policing your bubble, I guess. At the end of the day, I will know more about the variety of ideas in our society than you, and that's power.
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Joe Rogan goes full blown MRA; defends Trump, denies gender wage gap
- Thread starter Chumley
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Enjoy policing your bubble, I guess. At the end of the day, I will know more about the variety of ideas in our society than you, and that's power.
I mean, not really.
The saying is "knowledge is power" not "knowledge and being vaguely familiar with pothead conspiracies are power".
Though people treating Rogan as a legitmate source of information explains a lot about the level of public discourse in the US right now.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
It's a paraphrase of a common english idiom, but glad I could entertain you.
Langdon Alger
Banned
Man, people really want to live in an echo chamber.
Comfort Jones
Banned
I've listened to the first time Joe had milo on his show and I've listened to him talk with fuckin Buck Angel of all people, and plenty of other guests. Dude's far from the "alt right" or "mra" but I think he definitely gives people the benefit of the doubt far more than he should. His overall opinion of Trump is not good but I don't think he really gets horrified from the shit he says the way a lot of people do (including me).
Whats wrong with a chamber free of misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, and racism? What do those concepts add to society? If they don't add anything then why not remove them? To remove them we have to challenge them, not yield to and excuse them. Life is vibrant enough without those concepts that only hurt others.
EmpressInYellow
Banned
I've got a finite amount of time in my life to devote to things. Are you saying I should allocate some of that precious time to listening to some meathead with a podcast spout transphobic bullshit that I hear every day for the sake of...balance? "Being informed"?
Because that's a chamber privileged in its own ignorance and self-importance that will inevitably collapse under the weight of reality.
Who decides whats misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, racist, etc? You? Me? Someone else? Everyone's line is different. When you realize this and stop labeling people as one-dimensional caricatures, you realize that - like yourself - human beings are fully formed people with an array of both good and bad qualities. You can challenge the bad (and you should) but don't silence and get trigger happy to staple a scarlet letter on someone just because they hold one particular viewpoint you don't prefer.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I wasn't even talking about Rogen in particular if you follow who I was responding to.
The conversation began when someone said they'd think less of someone for listening to Rogen's podcast. This seems to assume that people only consume media if they agree with what's being said 100%.
I said that's wrong. I don't choose media based on how it confirms my personal beliefs, and I assume many others don't either. I want to hear people speak about their various worldviews. Even when I'm shaking my head saying "nope" the whole way through, it's informative.
Agree with OP, been trying to ignore Rogans right wing rethoric for years but this is a deal breaker. What a shame, and that guy Brian Callen that he hangs out with is exactly the same. Just check out their latest podcast with Chael Sonnen (who is also a notorious Trump-supporter);
https://youtu.be/OPJxeeDvlyc?t=32m
https://youtu.be/OPJxeeDvlyc?t=32m
C
Contica
Unconfirmed Member
It's not free from anything. You're just sticking your head in a hole. If you want to remove that shit, you've gotta face it head on.
EmpressInYellow
Banned
For those of us who are actually affected by this stuff, dismissing attitudes which, at the BEST of times, treat us like second class citizens as "one particular viewpoint you don't prefer" is pretty insulting.
Comfort Jones
Banned
Callen in another podcast straight up compared him to Putin and said he's not fit for the job.
Chael is definitely on that Trump train though. People still love him because he embraces that heel role which is kinda...strange.
Also last time I heard Joe on trump, cant remember which episode off the top of my head, he said "There's never been a man alive who needs mushrooms more than Donald Trump". Right wing rhetoric ehhh.
This is aggressively fucking stupid. Misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, and racism ARE privilege and ignorance. They are the very manifestations of privilege and ignorance. The opposite of those things is not the same.
Women, POC and homosexuals and trans, that's who.
You know who doesn't get to decide those things? Straight white men. They can shut up, listen and learn.
But facing it head on makes people uncomfortable and claim we just want an echo chamber in the first place. The people who ignore what minorities are saying to them about what is hurtful are the ones sticking their head in the sand.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Wait
What
Are you serious? Please tell me this is some sort of copy/paste meme...
HAHAHAHAHA jesus...
Sommers is an anti-feminist. Who do you think you're fooling?
Yikes... But hey I bet that quote is out of context too! Stop judging him! It's just a joke! Stop criticizing this gracious male role model and greatest ambassador of alternative thought the world has known in aeons! </cringe>
lol, you think you have power over me because you listen to the likes of Alex Jones? Do you also invest time in carefully listening to and analysing the points of views of David Icke, Scientologists, the Flat Earth Society and Timecube?
How many liberal-minded folks do you know that say they watch/listen to conservative media and don't qualify that statement? It's not unheard, but it seems real unlikely.
Langdon Alger
Banned
I'm not saying listen to Joe Rogen's podcast, I've never listened to it myself, but at least be informed enough to know that tons of people who are definitely not MRAs have shown that the wage gap is a result of a bunch of different factors, and isn't just discrimination or sexism, and that it's absurd to call someone an MRA because they point this out.
RuinerPrime
Member
I thought is was an earnings gap, not a wage gap. And isn't it illegal to pay someone less in the same position for being a different gender?
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Haha actually yes, good examples, Scientology is one of my favourite topics and I'm well versed in their history and lore. Alex Jones is also a laugh riot. I also love studying the ideology of North Korea, Charles Manson and other serial killers, reading up on what the alt-right is saying, studying cults and political ideologies of all shapes and sizes... Guess how many of these viewpoints I agree with?
And yeah, this kinda does give insight into the world.... I'm not judging how you spend your free time, but drawing lines in the sand based on an ideological purity test just limits my options for exploring the world of ideas.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I'm not talking about educating yourself on nonsensical/hateful ideologies (it's always good to be aware that they exist), I'm talking about investing your time in paying concrete attention to it and thinking that this makes you more enlightened or superior. It's a laughable notion.
EmpressInYellow
Banned
Sure, but context is key. In a nuanced discussion of the various causes of the wage gap, I don't think people would bat an eye.
Given Rogan's track record of saying deeply stupid shit on a number of subjects, though, I don't blame people for being less inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.
And frankly, I find the whole "PC gone mad!" thing incredibly tiresome. Yes, tell us how much people are SILENCING you, well-off sports commentator with a podcast and Netflix special. I mean, the clip I saw even had him and the other guy complaining about how you can totally get away with making fun of WHITE people in a way that you can't with other groups of people!
I just...what am I gaining by listening to these people? How is it enriching my life? When I listen to someone get things painfully, egregiously, dangerously wrong on a subject that affects me, why should I give credence to anything else they say?
And sure, I don't think all of Rogan's audience consists of MRAs or anything. But I'd be willing to wager that a significant percentage of them do buy in to the crap he spews, even when it's woefully misinformed.
JimiNutz
Banned
His idea of the male feminist is not simply someone who is sympathetic to females but someone who is an extreme feminist (attacking males and white knighting at every opportunity).
When Joe attacks 'feminism' he is pointing out how ridiculous the extreme feminists are and it's more an attack against those stupid people in society who always take things to extremes and then attack others for not following their beliefs - whether that me feminists, mens rights advocates, vegans, Christians or Muslims.
Hes simply pointing out the absurdity in these extreme views. Joe is 100% for womens rights AND mens rights and gay rights and any other rights. He just doesn't like it when people get into these little tribes, adopt extreme views and then attack others.
Simply put, some people take this shit too far and become complete dicks in the process (as seen in this very thread).
maquiladora
Member
God damn
EmpressInYellow
Banned
But that's not what he said. He said "male feminist".
If people are misunderstanding what he means by that, then the problem isn't on the listening end.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Who said anything like that?
My post that you responded to was refuting the idea that people were automatically stupid for listening to Rogen. Now it's drifted into thinking I was saying you'd be "enlightened or superior" for listening. Let's be real here, it's Joe Rogen. No one in this thread is that un-self aware, I hope. It'd be real funny if someone actually thought Rogen's podcast was like mainlining the secrets of the universe.
Comfort Jones
Banned
I actually agree with this statement and tbh it's an issue I've seen with plenty of people. I've seen people who I know have no issues with women having equality using the word "feminist" as an insult, hell I've known girls who do it.
flintstryker
Banned
That lady who got all crazy over the Hugh Mungus incident is a perfect example of why people should be wary of living in an echo chamber, She was so sure of her position that she willingly uploaded a recording of her being completely and obviously unreasonably aggressive because she 110% thought that she was in the right and based on that screen cap of her facebook post, not even one of her friends told her she was overreacting they were all pretty much enabling the behaviour.
Langdon Alger
Banned
Maybe you're right. I probably shouldn't be commenting in a Joe Rogen thread, since I never listen to his stuff. I don't really know much about him outside of News Radio.
kavanf1
Member
If only more people paid attention to this post...
EmpressInYellow
Banned
Well, I mean...there's some truth to it, but buzzwords and terms of mockery aren't "criticism". You can talk about tone-deaf extremism in social justice movements without calling people "SJWs", and you can discuss overuse/over-broadening of the idea of trigger warnings without saying "LOL r u triggered?"
Is there a danger of legitimate criticisms getting pushed to the side because of an avalanche of reactionary bullshit? Sure - but that's only tangentially related to people using mocking terms as in-group signifiers.
Audioboxer
Member
To be fair the whole of the internet uses mockery and inflammatory terms to attack the opposite end of the political spectrum. Without a doubt the hard right does it in the highest quantity, but many on the left hit back with hyperbole and inflammatory remarks too. It's viewable often on GAF with how emotional and over passionate people can get. Welcome to politics in 2016 where so many are that invested and dogmatic about their political stance and position they have to make it known where they are. I empathise totally given the scenario with the joke that is Trump, but try and say anything, absolutely anything at Clinton and people will have a meltdown. He's a joke of a candidate, she's a qualified candidate. None of that makes anyone infallible to dislike/criticism. If anything it's more natural to have likes and dislikes of a serious, qualified candidate. Trump is not that, he shouldn't be running for president. On a more hilarious note you can't even watch an episode of South Park in this climate without people on the hard left saying you're part of the alt-right now or South Park is alt-right.
I say this as someone who for the sake of their own sanity would rather say they are pretty much central with a left leaning tilt. The echo chambers and self preservation seen on the hard left and hard right are out of control at times. Heck it seems the creator of this topic somehow got themselves banned within the very topic.
Now people shouldn't be rushing to defend Joe Rogan like he's their father. He can defend himself, and he's a "big boy" so let people criticise him and mock him. However the above is more a remark on the modern attachments to political identity/ideology more than it is anything said in defence of or favour of Rogan. I can't understand anyone giving up their critical thinking faculties, even if I can empathise with how emotional one can get given just how nasty those on the hard right normally are. Us vs them mentalities can get totally out of control at times, even if tons of hearts are in the right place. As can an almost religious like approach to your political belief system. It produces very dogmatic individuals who view the world in binary. Either 1 or 0. Nothing else. Ironically that is how "extremist" religion spreads itself, you either view the world as they do, or you're a "heretic". 1 or 0.
JimiNutz
Banned
True.
I have been listening to the podcast for years. Taken in isolation his comments are a problem at times. He comes across as a genuinely good person though and I think he just finds many of these 'movements' such as feminism, veganism etc to be ridiculous at times - especially when they attack other groups or expect everyone to just follow along with their agenda.
The idea of a male, hating other males is ridiculous...Males aren't the problem, certain individuals are the problem. And no doubt some of the hardcore feminists spout hate speech about men...which is bullshit.
entremet
Member
Do you think the guest was seriously saying that men who believe in gender equality are gross?
They're joking. Similar to many who wear their activists stripes in every conversation. They're easy targets.
No idea why people are conflating shoot the shit talk in a conversation as officially held positions.
That's clearly tongue and cheek.
Anecdotal but when I gave Netflix's 13th documentary a 5-star rating it dropped Joe Rogan's comedy special recommendation down by a full star.
I never have been able to get into his podcast because of how much it reminded me of Alex Jones (especially with all the homeopathic "medicine" he was hawking), and the last time I tried to give it a shot was well over 5 years ago. Not too surprised to hear that he started to fall down the alt-right well.
So is "He only constantly jokes along alt-right lines" the new explanation?
I never have been able to get into his podcast because of how much it reminded me of Alex Jones (especially with all the homeopathic "medicine" he was hawking), and the last time I tried to give it a shot was well over 5 years ago. Not too surprised to hear that he started to fall down the alt-right well.
So is "He only constantly jokes along alt-right lines" the new explanation?
Oh, not at all. I pretty much agree with what NutJobJim posted above. I just thought the female guest's reaction was funny.
entremet
Member
Nah.
Joe Rogan says stupid shit all the time. Many things indefensible.
The premise of this thread is what people are pushing back on. He's somehow now full MRA because he mentions a controversial idea? It's just lazy reasoning. Or that he is even alt right?
People really use that term loosely. Words matter. And if you're gonna throw that bomb out you better come with better evidence than a comedian shooting the shit with his buds.
I guess I just don't see anything informative or educational in a conversation where at least one party has either no idea what they're talking about or has dug their heels into some conspiratorial bullshit. That has nothing to do with my beliefs or willingness to expose myself to opposing viewpoints. It's just a waste of time.
I don't have any problem with people listening to Rogan or the like for entertainment, but to expose yourself to it doesn't do anything for you intellectually either.
In Germany we recently had several incidents between cops and the so-called "Reichsbürgern", people akin to the sovereign citizen nutbags you have in the US. If I wanted to learn more about them, what do you think would be more productive: listen to people that researched that movement academically or let one of them shout at me for an hour how the Federal Republic of Germany doesn't exist and how their self-printed driver's license is totally legit, while a comedian occasionally agrees with their insanity?
The mere existence of a position, movement or opinion doesn't it make inherently worthwhile. That has nothing to do with "ideological purity".
Audioboxer
Member
As I said above it's beginning to be the hard lefts equivalent of the hard right saying "SJW" and "triggered" all the time. The hard left simply say you are an MRA and part of the alt-right. It's about trying to find rather horrible badges of honour to pin on someone to discredit them. They're not quite doing it as often as the hard right likes to jump on it's bandwagon, hence why I said above the hard right are the undisputed worst at abusing and labelling people. However lefties are definitely picking up on the tactic that to simply jump to smearing someone is effective and often gets you high fives from within your political community. The major difference though is people on the left usually always have best intentions in mind and think with their heart (compassionately). But that doesn't always mean your approach to constructing arguments and criticism are infallible. Where as those on the hard right like to refer to themselves as "provocateurs" and "shitlords" which is a whole different ball game of embarrassing/pathetic.
Again this isn't a specific observation on Rogan, but a collective approach to watching the debates and arguing from all sides as someone who identifies as being fairly central.
Rogan's forums are filled with them. It's like the complete opposite of NeoGAF OT.
I've heard him talk about feminism a lot. He rips on people pushing the extreme side of feminism for sure. I don't know if that's changed, I haven't listened to his podcast in a long while.
No one (sane) watches Joe Rogan for Rogan, they watch it for the guest. And even when he has on dipshit guests, he pushes back in ways that make them explain their views. Whether it's Milo or some quack scientist, making them talk about their beliefs for 2-3 hours with a guy who has no academic background means that the onus is on you, the listener/viewer, to parse meaning out of the guest's words. You don't have a person sitting across from the "bad guy" doing the arguing for you and telling you what to actually believe. You probably learn more going "wait, that can't be right" and doing research and finding out why it's wrong. It's a lot of work, but as long as you're not in constant fear of becoming dumb through osmosis, it's entertaining to listen to.
The silver lining to these long-form podcasts is that bullshitters exhaust themselves of their act quickly. Milo, for instance, just becomes agitated in the first interview with Joe as Joe recognizes an act when he sees one and starts to challenge him on religion, abortion, race, and drugs. He then comments to later guests that he thinks Milo is an act, which most of GAF would also agree with. And the people who are quack scientists basically lose steam halfway through - the last one got agitated and went after peer-reviewed science.
Sometimes actually giving bullshit a podium is the best way to expose it. So I think there's a lot of nuance and discussion that could be had over what podcasts like this can actually do that is GOOD that other, more academic podcasts fail to do.
Audioboxer
Member
In terms of the actual podcast itself, other than what you said it's to do with the reach it has. Quite often, unfortunately, "widespread reach" on the internet doesn't go to the most qualified, humane and stringently "proper" person. It ends up going to charismatic personalities, with all the baggage that entails. Rogan will pretty much speak to anyone, something that cannot be said for large parts of the general population (I will only talk to those who think like me, and scream at shout at those who don't!). You're not going to get guests on a podcast if you scream, shout and call them names. Challenging someone is a social interaction that does require some thought and skill. You are right, it is largely about the guests and there is times I sit back and think I'm quite happy this guest whom I think is very intelligent, reasonable and has good arguments is potentially being broadcast to absolute asshats online (usually scientists, or someone like Louis Thereoux if it's political/social commentary). The bigger issue is always will they listen, but debate is but one means to which we can occasionally get through to people. In terms of numbers I've probably listened to about 5~10% of Rogans podcasts. Probably nearer 5% than 10%. There is a stupid amount.
Also as you correctly said the onus is always on the individual to listen, research and come to their own conclusion. Life isn't about someone else doing the hard work for you, so you can simply "cash in" your critical thinking faculties and individualism to the easy route of I'll find someone I like, and let them talk and think for me. That is an incredibly weak way to approach life at best, potentially dangerous to your own mental well-being at worst. Yes life is hectic and we're all busy as fuck, but make some time to research and challenge yourself and not just be a zombie walking around parroting someone else's words/beliefs.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
There are no advantages to listening to Joe Rogan's misogyny. It doesn't further educate you on the subject unless you consider listening to sexists on its own to be a worthwhile endeavor. "Face it head on" is ridiculous, because facing these subjects head on would mean listening to, talking to, and working with people who have any influence beyond a podcast audience that's there for jokes and a certain brand. He's no one in the grand scheme of sexism.
CaramelMarx
Neo Member
Um, sorry, don't mean to butt in here, but this sounds damn wrong to me. There's 'drawing lines in the sand based on an ideological purity test', and then there's having any kind of standard at all. Have some backbone - at least enough to differentiate between total trash and actual good ideas. How can you 'explore the world of ideas' if you allow any old stupid ass thing into your head? There's more stupidity out there than brilliance, much more heat than light. That ratio makes your whole 'anything goes' outlook a bit naive, not to mention altogether untenable for anybody interested in facts, truth, or decency.
What I'm saying is...garbage in, garbage out.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
THIS.
I'm pretty confident in saying Joe Rogan is full of useless trash for all of us. That's fine, I love some trash especially when I'm stressed, but know the difference, everyone. Something just existing doesn't make it worthwhile, and just never choosing to care about Joe Rogan because he's said some sexist things is perfectly fine and will not harm you or anyone else. Pay attention to people with real political, social, and ethical influence.
Audioboxer
Member
I would hope that BocoDragon does have some backbone and is willing to put their beliefs on the line and call out "total garbage" as you put it.
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt what they are in some way saying is what I also adhere to. A small part of my listening will go to hearing why people believe stupid shit. Mainly for two reasons. Genuine curiosity as to why others hold views I personally find reprehensible. Secondly because the field of study which I belong to is psychology, and a large part of the scientific method isn't to throw your hands up in the air in a tizzy and storm off, but precisely to find out why some peoples brains and thoughts tick how they do, and then draw conclusions from the evidence where possible. Obviously as well for the sake and well being of society where possible to try and offer alternative ways of thinking that will arguably be more productive, caring and inclusive.
It's part of the reason many in my field can work with and talk to serial killers and others locked up in prison for heinous crimes. Someone listening to guests on a Joe Rogan podcast aren't even anywhere in the same realm as psychologists sitting down in a prison and discussing why/how someone raped and murdered 15 people. The extreme point to make out of that is some people do need to get a little bit of a grip always getting up in arms simply when they hear someone state they will give a small portion of their time to listening to ideas they don't necessarily like/agree with. Hence why we continuously get people on the left screaming that people on the right live in echo chambers, and people on the right screaming that people on the left live in echo chambers. The reality is a lot of people are somewhere in between and don't just bombard their precious minds with the exact same belief systems they adhere to. It's actually quite a large part of human nature to be curious, even if said curiosity leads you to places you vehemently dislike. Exploration and curiosity isn't the same as acceptance and following. So it is intellectually dishonest to even try and say someone is x because someone simply listened to an idea which supports x. For someone to be classed as x there requires to be tangible and suitable evidence to back up such a claim. X of course being whatever horrible world-view or practice someone has listened to/investigated.
One can both disagree with much of what Rogan says/thinks, but respect the fact he manages to get a whole range of guests on his podcast and talks for hours without anyone storming off. I value someone like Louis Thereoux tenfold over Rogan, but he is in a sense a tiny part of what makes Thereoux great. The ability to go and spend time with Nazis/Religious fundamentalists and paedophiles and ask questions and challenge without screaming at them and calling them names and saying "fuck you for existing, I won't ask you a single question". Not everyone needs to be like that, but for the love of "God" I wish knee-jerk reactions weren't such a flavour of the month on the internet. More so when it gets to the point of busy bodies trying to police what one does with their free time when we're talking about podcasts. I stated above pretty much the memorable Rogan podcast that comes to me is that with the Baltimore ex-cop. That had pretty much fuck all to do with Rogan. A nod to the fact he attracts good quests.
Biggest example of this willingness to attack a mere listener in recent times seems to be Rogan brought Milo onto his podcast, so guilt by association means anyone who dares to listen to any Rogan podcast after this fact is somehow a supporter of/sympathiser of Milo. Now that is a steaming pile of shit, and a very hard left wing approach to trying to tar ones character and eject them from any debate via shaming. I think Milo is an absolute fucking asshat and outside of amassing an audience from a twisted popularity contest, offers little to no journalistic integrity and gets absolutely smashed by actual intellects in the fields of freedom of speech and educational freedom on Uni campuses. Guess what though, one cannot help that a man who has had over 800 podcasts manages to get some seriously good guests due to his reach. Heck the afforementioned Louis Thereoux has been on Rogans show a few times, but was on it again very recently, and after Milo had been on (I think Milos been on more than once as well) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXyS-74sRTE If you like Louis Thereoux like I do, but have some dogmatic block to even consider listening to that podcast then that is simply your loss. It's your given right to refuse to listen for whatever reason you want, but I just sure as heck hope some people who think this rigidly never pursue careers in any field where the scientific approach is valued more highly than personal feelings. Thankfully most won't, precisely because I'd be pleasantly surprised if they could last longer than a day when it came down to having to study contested scientific methods that may not be what they personally believe/adhere to.
Joe Rogan is a strange one. In my opinion, he's a hack that has a penchant for aggressiveness and purposely entertaining "alt" ideas that the young and naive cling to. His audience is pretty obvious, and some of the shit that comes out of his mouth is pretty fucking stupid.
I find it funny how young progressives will roll their eyes and be baffled at creationism taught in conservative parts of the US, when half of Rogan's podcast is basically "Teach the controversy" manifested. But that's okay, its bigfoot and bulletproof coffee, which is way cooler, but an equal crock of shit all the way through.
I find it funny how young progressives will roll their eyes and be baffled at creationism taught in conservative parts of the US, when half of Rogan's podcast is basically "Teach the controversy" manifested. But that's okay, its bigfoot and bulletproof coffee, which is way cooler, but an equal crock of shit all the way through.
Count Dookkake
Member
Not so sure about that first one, but lol at that second one.
That's made me wonder if people don't watch documentaries about people/things that they don't like.
As a big fan of Louis Theroux, does watching his documentaries on Jimmy Savile, Nazis, black nationalists or the Westboro Baptist Church make me a sympathizer or fan of each of the people featured in it? As far as I can tell I haven't turned into any of them yet, but I do find watching them very interesting.
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