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[phosphor112]

we just need to end all insider posts, reading the other thread they also said the downclock was happening. downclock to 200 overclock?!

Why punish the pack when some of us want to hear the inner rumblings? If you don't want to listen to the insiders, fine, go ahead. You don't need to take what they have to say for any value, but some of us want to hear wants going on.

 

[RukusProvider]

Gaf posters under 20 now better Subject Matter Experts than Carmack.

Achievement Unlocked: Reached new forum low.

 

[szaromir]

Why punish the pack when some of us want to hear the inner rumblings? If you don't want to listen to the insiders, fine, go ahead. You don't need to take what they have to say for any value, but some of us want to hear wants going on.

Because their BS often permeates and pollutes other threads. How about setting up an insider network where you share all those rumors in private (via PM on GAF or a group on Facebook or whatever)? The curious are satisfied, the threads remain free of BS rumors being treated as #truthfacts.

 

[ekim]

BruceLee and Gopher, two people that are even closer to the inner circles said they heard the same thing.

What? They corroborated the upclock?

 

[prwxv3]

Why punish the pack when some of us want to hear the inner rumblings? If you don't want to listen to the insiders, fine, go ahead. You don't need to take what they have to say for any value, but some of us want to hear wants going on.

This. All insiders must go through mods first anyway.

 

[statham]

Why punish the pack when some of us want to hear the inner rumblings? If you don't want to listen to the insiders, fine, go ahead. You don't need to take what they have to say for any value, but some of us want to hear wants going on.

Thinking about it, I do enjoy insider posts, but they should never be used in arguments as facts.

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

Microsoft let us know right after the reveal. Does this mean Sony is behind on OS development?

Different situation. MS has blocked off 3GB of RAM permanently that will only be used for OS partition functionality (I still haven't seen the words "3GB of RAM for the OS partition" come out of an actual MS employee's mouth tho, so unless there's a link somewhere that showed Marc Whitten or someone specifically say it, I believe it was just inferred from an interview with Whitten on Game Informer. If there's a link where MS actually announces the amount of RAM being used by the One's OS partition, I'd love to see that, because I don't think they have come out and said matter of fact that it is the case), so based on what we know, that 3GB will always be allocated for just that purpose.

The PS4 has 8GB of unified RAM that can ebb and flow between OS functionality and games, much like the 360 and PS3, so over time Sony can and is optimizing that RAM allocation for the OS, no doubt streamlining and shrinking it down like they did on the PS3 over time. I imagine they won't announce the amount of RAM allocated for the OS at this point because OS development will be something that's going up until the release of the PS4 and for the life of the console in general. Announcing RAM OS usage seems like a poor idea when even Sony likely doesn't have a number set in stone. It doesn't indicate that they are behind in development by any means, if the current console generation has taught us anything.

 

[RayMaker]

Just out of interest how many Tflops would an 1ghz X1 GPU be?

same as the 7790? which is 1.79tflops?

 

[Thorgal]

Because their BS often permeates and pollutes other threads. How about setting up an insider network where you share all those rumors in private (via PM on GAF or a group on Facebook or whatever)? The curious are satisfied, the threads remain free of BS rumors being treated as #truthfacts.

Uhhh .you do realize that every single guy on these forums who claims to be an insider has to prove themselves to the mods by showing them their credentials .

if they don't or are found to be frauds making up stuff they get instantly permabanned.

Thuway is still here and not banned.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Just out of interest how many Tflops would an 1ghz X1 GPU be?

same as the 7790? which is 1.79tflops?

1.54 TFLOPS

 

[ekim]

Just out of interest how many Tflops would an 1ghz X1 GPU be?

same as the 7790? which is 1.79tflops?

1.536

 

[gruenel]

Just out of interest how many Tflops would an 1ghz X1 GPU be?

same as the 7790? which is 1.79tflops?

X1 has 1.31 TFlops. The closest match would be the 7770, which has 1.28 TFlops.

Edit: disregard what I just wrote, I need to learn to read.

 

[RayMaker]

1.54 TFLOPS

thanks

 

[kartu]

Gaf posters under 20 now better Subject Matter Experts than Carmack.

Oh, not that argument again...
You don't need to be a shoe maker to understand that shoes do not fit.

Anyone following tech news knows 7790 (Xbone) is no match to 7850+ (PS4)
Anyone following tech news knows PS4 has much faster ram and AMD's APUs benefit a lot from faster RAM.

What else is there? Dat secret sauce, the power of gazillion cloud servers? Yeah, Carmack sure is an expert at cloud computing... Remind me a single game that has used cloud to offload some processing.

 

[phosphor112]

Because their BS often permeates and pollutes other threads. How about setting up an insider network where you share all those rumors in private (via PM on GAF or a group on Facebook or whatever)? The curious are satisfied, the threads remain free of BS rumors being treated as #truthfacts.

There are several mods that are insiders. If you want to think their posts are bullshit, that's up to you....

What? They corroborated the upclock?

They said they heard it. They also heard about a downclock. But a 200mhz upclock vs a small downclock? Which one seems more probable? Thuway was the only one that went out to say that the downclock was probable though, the other two were quiet until after the fact.

Thinking about it, I do enjoy insider posts, but they should never be used in arguments as facts.

Agreed.

 

[Klocker]

Different situation. MS has blocked off 3GB of RAM permanently that will only be used for OS partition functionality (I still haven't seen the words "3GB of RAM for the OS partition" come out of an actual MS employee's mouth tho, so unless there's a link somewhere that showed Marc Whitten or someone specifically say it, I believe it was just inferred from an interview with Whitten on Game Informer. If there's a link where MS actually announces the amount of RAM being used by the One's OS partition, I'd love to see that, because I don't think they have come out and said matter of fact that it is the case), so based on what we know, that 3GB will always be allocated for just that purpose.

The PS4 has 8GB of unified RAM that can ebb and flow between OS functionality and games, much like the 360 and PS3, so over time Sony can and is optimizing that RAM allocation for the OS, no doubt streamlining and shrinking it down like they did on the PS3 over time. I imagine they won't announce the amount of RAM allocated for the OS at this point because OS development will be something that's going up until the release of the PS4 and for the life of the console in general. Announcing RAM OS usage seems like a poor idea when even Sony likely doesn't have a number set in stone. It doesn't indicate that they are behind in development by any means, if the current console generation has taught us anything.

PS game RAM is pretty clearly set at 4.5-5 now but you are correct it may be reduced a bit later on, or not,

 

[RayMaker]

1.536

is there any more decimil places for it , lol

 

[RayMaker]

Oh, not that argument again...
You don't need to be a shoe maker to understand that shoes do not fit.

Anyone following tech news knows 7790 (Xbone) is no match to 7850+ (PS4)
Anyone following tech news knows PS4 has much faster ram and AMD's APUs benefit a lot from faster RAM.

What else is there? Dat secret sauce, the power of gazillion cloud servers? Yeah, Carmack sure is an expert at cloud computing... Remind me a single game that has used cloud to offload some processing.

everybody knows the PS4 version will have extra grass etc

 

[phosphor112]

is there any more decimil places for it , lol

2 x (768 x 1000) = 1536000

1.536

Doesn't look like it. =P

 

[LeeFowler.CU]

Different situation. MS has blocked off 3GB of RAM permanently that will only be used for OS partition functionality (I still haven't seen the words "3GB of RAM for the OS partition" come out of an actual MS employee's mouth tho, so unless there's a link somewhere that showed Marc Whitten or someone specifically say it, I believe it was just inferred from an interview with Whitten on Game Informer. If there's a link where MS actually announces the amount of RAM being used by the One's OS partition, I'd love to see that, because I don't think they have come out and said matter of fact that it is the case), so based on what we know, that 3GB will always be allocated for just that purpose.

The PS4 has 8GB of unified RAM that can ebb and flow between OS functionality and games, much like the 360 and PS3, so over time Sony can and is optimizing that RAM allocation for the OS, no doubt streamlining and shrinking it down like they did on the PS3 over time. I imagine they won't announce the amount of RAM allocated for the OS at this point because OS development will be something that's going up until the release of the PS4 and for the life of the console in general. Announcing RAM OS usage seems like a poor idea when even Sony likely doesn't have a number set in stone. It doesn't indicate that they are behind in development by any means, if the current console generation has taught us anything.

Agreed. I was mainly being facetious and trying to make fun of the whole "MS hasn't released info because they don't because they're scrambling because they're behind because reasons" narrative that seems to be floating around.

 

[jonscrambler]

Oh, not that argument again...
You don't need to be a shoe maker to understand that shoes do not fit.

Anyone following tech news knows 7790 (Xbone) is no match to 7850+ (PS4)
Anyone following tech news knows PS4 has much faster ram and AMD's APUs benefit a lot from faster RAM.
.

I don't see anyone arguing PS4 is not more powerful on paper, but rather if you would see much real world difference . I mean if PS4 version just has slightly better frame rate or AA is that really a noticeable difference unless you have XB1 and PS4 versions side by side?

 

[Nafai1123]

I don't see anyone arguing PS4 is not more powerful on paper, but rather if you would see much real world difference . I mean if PS4 version just has slightly better frame rate or AA is that really a noticeable difference unless you have XB1 and PS4 versions side by side?

Considering DF had a pretty large audience for their H2H's this gen, I'd say it does matter to many gamers.

 

[JudgeB]

Why punish the pack when some of us want to hear the inner rumblings? If you don't want to listen to the insiders, fine, go ahead. You don't need to take what they have to say for any value, but some of us want to hear wants going on.

I don't really care whether he was right or wrong on various topics, but I just find it funny how he is supposedly looking forward to a wall of shame for people when he has enough to fill one of himself at this point. Hypocrite he is.

 

[BruiserBear]

Agreed. I was mainly being facetious and trying to make fun of the whole "MS hasn't released info because they don't because they're scrambling because they're behind because reasons" narrative that seems to be floating around.

You know what I love about the "Microsoft is playing catch up" narrative being pushed for the past few months?

At E3 Microsoft had Forza 5 and Ryse on display and they looked a hell of a lot more impressive and close to being finished than Driveclub or Knack.

 

[JudgeB]

Thuway is still here and not banned.

He acually was banned, right after he came on after the FF15 announcement and started saying how it was PS4 exclusive.

 

[ChronotriggerJM]

Anyone who thinks there won't be a difference is out of there flipping mind. They're both so similar on a hardware level, only one of the boxes has a better GPU. It's not even an apples to oranges comparison like it was last gen, it's just an apple to larger apple comparison.

Additionally with consoles, one can really utilize the hardware, much more-so than you can on PC, so maybe ~.5 TFLOPS doesn't translate to much on your PC "maybe" being the key word, but on a console you'd have to be crazy to think it's not much. It's a little less than half the base performance of the One for crying out loud!

 

[cyberheater]

Is there any data around GPU utilisation of games on PC's?

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

PS game RAM is pretty clearly set at 4.5-5 now but you are correct it may be reduced a bit later on, or not,

You still fail to show proof that trumps actual PS4 devs saying it's not true. I appreciate the effort to shoehorn outdated rumors and misinformation into my post though.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

There are several mods that are insiders. If you want to think their posts are bullshit, that's up to you....



They said they heard it. They also heard about a downclock. But a 200mhz upclock vs a small downclock? Which one seems more probable? Thuway was the only one that went out to say that the downclock was probable though, the other two were quiet until after the fact.



Agreed.

At first Thuway was restrained on stating that the downclock may be happening. He simply said that he heard similar information, and I think wondered if cboat would chime in on the subject. However, once others started to chime in, he, to borrow a poker reference, went all in. Reading his posts, and his reactions to other people's posts, and how dismissive he seemed at times of anything to the contrary that a downclock had happened, you were led to believe that he felt pretty damn certain that the downclock was a done deal.

 

[prwxv3]

You still fail to show proof that trumps actual PS4 devs saying it's not true. I appreciate the effort to shoehorn outdated rumors and misinformation into my post though.

It's more like he wants the ps4 to have 4.5-5 gigs for games. And even if it was or still is true, the ps4 still has the far superior RAM setup.

 

[schuey7]

Different situation. MS has blocked off 3GB of RAM permanently that will only be used for OS partition functionality (I still haven't seen the words "3GB of RAM for the OS partition" come out of an actual MS employee's mouth tho, so unless there's a link somewhere that showed Marc Whitten or someone specifically say it, I believe it was just inferred from an interview with Whitten on Game Informer. If there's a link where MS actually announces the amount of RAM being used by the One's OS partition, I'd love to see that, because I don't think they have come out and said matter of fact that it is the case), so based on what we know, that 3GB will always be allocated for just that purpose.

The PS4 has 8GB of unified RAM that can ebb and flow between OS functionality and games, much like the 360 and PS3, so over time Sony can and is optimizing that RAM allocation for the OS, no doubt streamlining and shrinking it down like they did on the PS3 over time. I imagine they won't announce the amount of RAM allocated for the OS at this point because OS development will be something that's going up until the release of the PS4 and for the life of the console in general. Announcing RAM OS usage seems like a poor idea when even Sony likely doesn't have a number set in stone. It doesn't indicate that they are behind in development by any means, if the current console generation has taught us anything.

Optimising isn't something that only Sony can do.MS can reduce the 3gb allocation too if they do not need it or if they optimise their software more after launch.Also didn't MS have a smaller OS ram allocation this gen than the PS3 even after Sony reduced the ram allocation for OS?

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

You know what I love about the "Microsoft is playing catch up" narrative being pushed for the past few months?

At E3 Microsoft had Forza 5 and Ryse on display and they looked a hell of a lot more impressive and close to being finished than Driveclub or Knack.

I don't either is "scrambling". I do think launch games tend to come up short across the board just because they're generally on a tighter schedule being developed on unfinished hardware.

As others have said, DriveClub is bringing a lot of behind the scene dynamic physics and environmental stuff with it, while Forza has most of that baked into the engine. Evolution was showing a very early build by their own admission and have said they'll be bringing something newer at Gamescom. I think it's pointless to harp on it until we've seen more down the line in either case.

As far as Knack, I have no opinion, seems like a nice, small $40 launch title that meets the 'family' requirement. If they try to stick it at $60, I think it could have problems selling.

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

Optimising isn't something that only Sony can do.MS can reduce the 3gb allocation too if they do not need it or if they optimise their software more after launch.Also didn't MS have a smaller OS ram allocation this gen than the PS3 even after Sony reduced the ram allocation for OS?

I'm just going by what the Eurogamer article said about the XBO's 3GB for the OS being set in stone. I would tend to agree and hope that's the case more than a permanent 3/5 split.

From the article:

"However, a big area of difference between Sony and Microsoft's approaches to OS allocation could come in their future plans for the reserved RAM. A Microsoft insider tells us that the engineers behind the Xbox One specifically chose 3GB in order to allow the background platform to evolve over a ten-year life-cycle - it's very hard to add features if the pool of available RAM is reduced from its initial level. The reserved RAM allocation there is set in stone, and is unlikely to change."

Again, I hope that's not true, but that's what I was basing my statement on.

 

[ThisWreckage]

Sony's in house developed games generally don't see vast improvement in graphics until the very end when they do their final passes. This was true even with the Uncharted games.

 

[ChronotriggerJM]

Sony's in house developed games generally don't see vast improvement in graphics until the very end when they do their final passes. This was true even with the Uncharted games.

The worst part is that the company in question is Evolution studios, which has done this with every motorstorm release.

 

[AstroNut325]

Does he have any games deep into development on both systems? I generally trust Carmack when it comes to tech but it sounds like he hasn't had a chance to really develop for the systems... yet.

 

[prwxv3]

The worst part is that the company in question is Evolution studios, which has done this with every motorstorm release.

Do they not do the verticle slice development or what? Were the past motor storm preview builds as bad as driveclub's

 

[ThisWreckage]

Do they not do the verticle slice development or what? We're the past motor storm preview builds as bad as driveclub's

They have a lot of talent on that studio and the Motorstorm games were good looking games. It's clear that the title is still very early.

 

[prwxv3]

They have a lot of talent on that studio and the Motorstorm games were good looking games. It's clear that the title is still very early.

But release is coming pretty soon.

 

[madmackem]

I think people are getting caught up in the wording, he states he hasnt even benchmarked the hardware yet, on paper they are in the same ballpark, we all know raw numbers ps4 is more powerful.

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

Do they not do the verticle slice development or what? Were the past motor storm preview builds as bad as driveclub's

Looks up Motorstorm from E3 2006 on Youtube and then look at the final product. The difference between the game they showed in July and the game that shipped in December is night and day.

 

[ChronotriggerJM]

Is there any data around GPU utilisation of games on PC's?

A big problem with GPU utilization on PC is the lack of direct component integration. So you have greater potential to get weird bottlenecks. GTX 780 vs Titan for example is a strange one, the 780 is almost as capable, but has half the ram. It's not an issue for now, but down the road it could be a bottleneck that the Titan won't have. So on a set-up like the Xbone and PS4, ram won't be the bottlneck (at least for the PS4 anyway, I'm not to certain about GPUS needs vs DDR3). So utilization of the GPU should in theory be much higher from that standpoint alone.

I'm probably making it to be a much bigger deal than it is, but I'm only trying to imply that the integrated system should offer utilization benefits.

 

[Klocker]

You still fail to show proof that trumps actual PS4 devs saying it's not true. I appreciate the effort to shoehorn outdated rumors and misinformation into my post though.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1769120&postcount=2503
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1769125&postcount=2505
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1770070&postcount=2653
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1770311&postcount=2675

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1770559&postcount=2680

Links fixed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have just been told that while the DF article is accurate there is one important point Richard seems to have got wrong.

With the flexible memory pool, it actually has only 512 MB of physical memory allocated to it - not 1 GB (Richard might have got confused by the fact that the pool can have up to 1024 MB of virtual memory addressed to it)

So the total available physical memory is 5 GB for devs (including the 512 MB in the flexible memory pool), with 3 GB reserved for the system.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, it's the former: 4.5GB + 0.5GB + 3GB

I am very surprised the reservation is this large!

But I suppose it's good to finally have the last major piece of info outstanding from our knowledge of the two systems.

No, games are limited to 5 GB; 4.5 GB managed directly by the game and 0.5 GB managed by the system on behalf of the game.

You don't have to use the full 1024 MB of virtual memory (and page to HDD) unless you want to.


One explanation of why thuway and co might be getting it wrong on the reservation is because devs can use the system in a mode where 6 GB of physical memory is available to the game.

This is only for development purposes though, you can't release a game that uses 6 GB.
from a month ago...






Originally Posted by (((interference))) a month ago

Well' I've been told before that upclocks are possible with XB1 hardware and it would mainly be an issue of MS being willing to eat the cost of poorer yields rather than running into TDP issues.



Maybe, like the ESRAM thing, this is something they discovered they could get away with from testing final silicon - without any significant impact on their BOM.







I think a change under 10% can be described as a small increase

...

 

[prwxv3]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...postcount=2503
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...postcount=2505
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...postcount=2653
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...postcount=2675
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...postcount=2680



...

B3d lol

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

B3d lol

I kind of already knew what I was getting, but it was still funny when it happened.

 

[KageMaru]

Perhaps you should learn to examine his statements more closely.

"I am not trying to bring out the MS Defense Force at me, but I've heard GPU clocks might be downgraded. 8-900 gigaflops for gaming. The APU is big. This isn't 100% confirmed though and is being done to improve yields.

CBoat do you mind adding anything?"

So what we can deduce from here:
- Thuway isn't certain. Key word: Might
- Not 100% confirmed
- He asks for confirmation from CBOAT

Why are you telling me how to examine posts? I'm not the one who took anything said as fact, I was merely commenting on how other people interpreted the insider info.

Gaf posters under 20 now better Subject Matter Experts than Carmack.

Achievement Unlocked: Reached new forum low.

lol

B3d lol

B3D may not be what it once was but there are still a lot of informative people there. More so than the average poster on GAF. Many of the older devs still post there, just not on the console forums because of the fanboys we typically see on forums. On top of that, the spread of misinformation is not really tolerated there, so take those insider claims however way you want but I wouldn't just laugh it off because it's B3D.

 

[kikonawa]

I'm a PS4 supporter but I agree with Carmack.

The XBone is nearly as capable as the PS4 and to the untrained eye there is going to be very little difference graphically.

The PS4 in theory should get anywhere from 4-10 more FPS over the Xbone which is significant but most won't notice or care. It's also going to come down to the developers and which system they pick as their lead system. If games get locked at 30fps, we aren't going to notice a single difference.

So yeah why buy a gf titan when you can buy a gf 670 right..

 

[mjswooosh]

"Very close" is a relative and diplomatic/politically safe phrase. Carmack is awesome for more than one reason.

He hasn't benched either system. When he does, the differences will become more clear. The PS4 has significantly more shader and memory bandwidth muscle on paper...and given that both systems use identical x86 architectures with the only variances being in the APIs/SDKs, there's almost no way this theoretical difference isn't going to be borne out in real-world games - especially 1st party exclusives over the long term.

That said, graphics aren't everything and I have no doubt both systems are going to provide some amazing gaming experiences over the next 5 yrs regardless of any % of benchmark differences.

 

[BruiserBear]

Perhaps you should learn to examine his statements more closely.

"I am not trying to bring out the MS Defense Force at me, but I've heard GPU clocks might be downgraded. 8-900 gigaflops for gaming. The APU is big. This isn't 100% confirmed though and is being done to improve yields.

CBoat do you mind adding anything?"

So what we can deduce from here:
- Thuway isn't certain. Key word: Might
- Not 100% confirmed
- He asks for confirmation from CBOAT

Yes, but the point is any of us could speculate about such things, and say we're not certain, etc, etc. If you're not pretty close to certain, you shouldn't be saying shit. It's that simple.

The "I'm not 100% certain" line is just cover in case they're completely wrong. I hate knocking people like Thuway, but there are numerous examples of him getting things completely wrong. Not kinda wrong, completely wrong.

I was witness to a thread prior to the PS4 reveal when he claimed to have the dimensions for the box. He posted them, and within about 30 seconds I knew something was wrong. The dimensions were ridiculous, and would have formed a box people would have laughed at. Yet he decided to post them anyway. Why didn't he notice what I noticed prior to posting them on Gaf? I have no idea, but he did it anyway.

Sometimes I wonder if we label people "insiders" purely because of one time when they were right with a prediction.

 

[statham]

Yes, but the point is any of us could speculate about such things, and say we're not certain, etc, etc. If you're not pretty close to certain, you shouldn't be saying shit. It's that simple.

The "I'm not 100% certain" line is just cover in case they're completely wrong. I hate knocking people like Thuway, but there are numerous examples of him getting things completely wrong. Not kinda wrong, completely wrong.

I was witness to a thread prior to the PS4 reveal when he claimed to have the dimensions for the box. He posted them, and within about 30 seconds I knew something was wrong. The dimensions were ridiculous, and would have formed a box people would have laughed at. Yet he decided to post them anyway. Why didn't he notice what I noticed prior to posting them on Gaf? I have no idea, but he did it anyway.

Sometimes I wonder if we label people "insiders" purely because of one time when they were right with a prediction.

forgot about the box dimensions, that was an interesting thread.