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[Bobby Roberts]

She acts as a translator when a universal translator would've done, and she beams on to a windy, high-moving vehicle in a dress to calm Spock down. Rest of the time she's complaining about her relationship problems. It's great that they made her more of a linguistics expert, which should come in handy on the five-year mission, but both come off as a little reaching to give her stuff to do.

She acts as a NEGOTIATOR, possibly the first of any such negotiation actually attempted so far as we know, and volunteers for it as a means of short-circuiting the captain's "plan," which would have started a war.

She's also not "complaining about relationship problems" she's sparking off the secondary arc of the movie, which is Spock's. Spock's trajectory in the film absolutely does not happen without her reframing the discussion in the first place. She's actively forcing him to reconsider and think about why and how he acts/reacts with people, a thought process that pays off in the last 15 minutes of the film.

C'mon with that "in a dress" thing, too: her standard issue uniform is a dress. She's not being demeaned by wearing it. Also,

Spoiler

she doesn't beam onto the platform to CALM HIM DOWN, but to SAVE HIS LIFE and the life of the man he's chasing as a means to save the life of the man who saved them.

That is not "basic girlfriend shit." If there's stretching, you're doing it, as a means to artificially diminish the character's motivations and actions to fit the categorization you've slotted her into.

 

[UncleSporky]

Something somebody else could've done. As I said, they were reaching a bit to give her stuff to do.

Everything is something somebody else could've done. They could make a movie with her as the central character and it would probably all be stuff somebody else could've done. Writers can make anyone do anything, for any reason.

Why not say they were reaching to give Spock stuff to do, or Kirk stuff to do? Anybody could've

Spoiler

gone into the volcano or stolen a scroll.

 

[radios shipping overview]

i don't know about you, but i draw a distinction between "worrying about lazy writing" and "judging a film's quality almost exclusively by how many plot holes i can dig up"

When films are as lazy about the important story angles as Abrams' Trek films are, the smaller plot holes are just extra bits that get discussed as the stories unravel in people's minds after the fact.

 

[SolsticeZero]

This thread needs more CHANG!

 

[Bobby Roberts]

There are some fans theorizing that the Klingon seen in "Into Darkness" is, in fact, Chang.

I don't know if I buy that, but it'd be fun, maybe.

 

[SolsticeZero]

There are some fans theorizing that the Klingon seen in "Into Darkness" is, in fact, Chang.

I don't know if I buy that, but it'd be fun, maybe.

They should get Christopher Plummer to do it again. With the prosthesis, they could effectively hide his age.

 

[speculawyer]

It was just as cheezy back then as it seems now.

Then again, I've never been a Trek fan.

 

[Mitsurux]

This. I watched WoK the other day for the first time and I was thoroughly unimpressed with Khan as a villain, especially after hearing how great of a villain he was. The scene that really got me was when Kirk tricked him into buying enough time to lower the Reliant's shields. Kirk was standing there stalling and very indiscreetly giving orders to his crew while Khan stood there like an idiot asking him what was taking so long. They praise Khan's superior intellect in the movie but it did not show itself even once.

Actually if you remember, Khan wanted Kirk to send him all of their Data on Project Genesis, Kirk stalls by saying it might take some time due to the damage done to the ship, then instead of sending the data, uses a littel known work around to lower the Reliants sheilds...

I don't see how the "delay" portion of that was so unbeleivable...

 

[UncleSporky]

Actually if you remember, Khan wanted Kirk to send him all of their Data on Project Genesis, Kirk stalls by saying it might take some time due to the damage done to the ship, then instead of sending the data, uses a littel known work around to lower the Reliants sheilds...

I don't see how the "delay" portion of that was so unbeleivable...

Sure, it's a believable explanation. It's the very obvious whispering and orders being given that should've tipped off Khan that something shady was going on.

It's like giving that believable explanation and saying "we're low on power, we'll call you back in 60 seconds" and cutting off communication. That would also be extremely suspicious.

 

[SolsticeZero]

Sure, it's a believable explanation. It's the very obvious whispering and orders being given that should've tipped off Khan that something shady was going on.

It's like giving that believable explanation and saying "we're low on power, we'll call you back in 60 seconds" and cutting off communication. That would also be extremely suspicious.

But Khan was extremely arrogant. He was convinced he had won and had nothing to worry about.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Sure, it's a believable explanation. It's the very obvious whispering and orders being given that should've tipped off Khan that something shady was going on.

True, but he's also, at that point, got his back turned to the viewscreen and is doing his own whispering and mumbling to his 2nd in command at the same time.

 

[Doctor Decimate]

When films are as lazy about the important story angles as Abrams' Trek films are, the smaller plot holes are just extra bits that get discussed as the stories unravel in people's minds after the fact.

no, the smaller plot holes are what people hammer and harp on just as much, if not more than the ones that actually matter. hooray, you were able to nitpick. so what? was it still an entertaining story? was it well-told? what about EVERYTHING ELSE about the movie?

 

[XiaNaphryz]

This thread is reminding me, whatever happened to Dax's old tag? Something about Star Trek fanfiction or something.

 

[The Librarian]

She acts as a NEGOTIATOR, possibly the first of any such negotiation actually attempted so far as we know, and volunteers for it as a means of short-circuiting the captain's "plan," which would have started a war.

She's also not "complaining about relationship problems" she's sparking off the secondary arc of the movie, which is Spock's. Spock's trajectory in the film absolutely does not happen without her reframing the discussion in the first place. She's actively forcing him to reconsider and think about why and how he acts/reacts with people, a thought process that pays off in the last 15 minutes of the film.

C'mon with that "in a dress" thing, too: her standard issue uniform is a dress. She's not being demeaned by wearing it. Also,

Spoiler

she doesn't beam onto the platform to CALM HIM DOWN, but to SAVE HIS LIFE and the life of the man he's chasing as a means to save the life of the man who saved them.

That is not "basic girlfriend shit." If there's stretching, you're doing it, as a means to artificially diminish the character's motivations and actions to fit the categorization you've slotted her into.

Okay. You're right on Uhura, with some caveats:

Spoiler

I still think it was reaching to use her character to beam down to shoot Khan, and I disagree about the dress.

 

[Beermeister]

That's what people think is better than the new Star Treks?

Star Trek First Contact > All Star Trek movies, ever.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country is by far the best of the original movies. I love Wrath of Khan, but there's a bit of "Genesis" filler in there. Plus, The Undiscovered Country has this motherfucker:



General motherfucking Chang

this man knows what's fucking up.

 

[SolsticeZero]

Star Trek First Contact > All Star Trek movies, ever.

Close. But I think The Undiscovered Country beats it out. Because of

<----- General Motherfucking Chang

 

[kharma45]

Close. But I think The Undiscovered Country beats it out.

Definitely.

FC is an excellent TNG movie but only a very good Star Trek one. Still, it's a lot of fun and those special effects have held up extremely well.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

This thread needs more CHANG!

And gorkon

"Well... I see we have a long way to go."

Having Warner & Plummer in the same movie was pretty awesome

 

[SolsticeZero]

And gorkon

Well... I see we have a long way to go.

Having Warner & Plummer in the same movie was pretty awesome

You. I like you. We should hang out.

Hell, all of the Klingons in The Undiscovered Country were badass. Took them six movies to get them right (Sorry, but Christopher Lloyd was a pretty shitty Klingon bad guy)

 

[BravesCountry]

Actually if you remember, Khan wanted Kirk to send him all of their Data on Project Genesis, Kirk stalls by saying it might take some time due to the damage done to the ship, then instead of sending the data, uses a littel known work around to lower the Reliants sheilds...

I don't see how the "delay" portion of that was so unbeleivable...

The delay portion was unbelievable not because of the valid explanation for it but for how poorly it was pulled off. It was extremely obvious what was going on because Kirk was acting extremely suspicious and could not have been more obvious that he was whispering things to the crew. If Khan is that super intelligent he would have seen through this immediately. I admit if the scene hadn't been so poorly executed the idea itself is not stupid.

True, but he's also, at that point, got his back turned to the viewscreen and is doing his own whispering and mumbling to his 2nd in command at the same time.

I do remember his back being turned but that makes him look even more stupid in my eyes.

He was also extremely arrogant. In his mind he'd crippled the Enterprise.

I think I would have liked to have seen a better balance between his arrogance and intelligence. I feel like it was too much arrogance and not enough intelligence for me to respect him as villain. I understand he was blinded by revenge but I still would have liked to have been more impressed with his capabilities.

 

[kharma45]

The delay portion was unbelievable not because of the valid explanation for it but for how poorly it was pulled off. It was extremely obvious what was going on because Kirk was acting extremely suspicious and could not have been more obvious the he was whispering things to the crew. If Khan is that super intelligent he would have seen through this immediately. I admit if the scene hadn't been so poorly executed the idea itself is not stupid.

He was also extremely arrogant. In his mind he'd crippled the Enterprise.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

And gorkon

"Well... I see we have a long way to go."

Having Warner & Plummer in the same movie was pretty awesome

And Captain Sulu.

And to further go on as to how badass Chang was in UC. He may have been cheating with a cloaked ship, but it took getting gangbanged by Kirk and Sulu at the same time to stop him.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

The love of the many outweighs the hate of the few.

Only a sith deals in absolute - J.J Abrams expanded universe presents Star Wars Vs SNK Vs Star Trek Vs Hello Kitty

 

[SolsticeZero]

And Captain Sulu.

And to further go on as to how badass Chang was in UC. He may have been cheating with a cloaked ship, but it took getting gangbanged by Kirk and Sulu at the same time to stop him.

And Worf making a cameo as Kirk's and Bones' lawyer

 

[kharma45]

And Worf making a cameo as Kirk's and Bones' lawyer

Worf's grandfather to be pedantic.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Okay. You're right on Uhura, with some caveats:

Spoiler

I still think it was reaching to use her character to beam down to shoot Khan, and I disagree about the dress.

I'll take it!

 

[BocoDragon]

This thread was inevitable.

Make a shiny and dumb remake of a piece of fiction which was admired for completely different qualities, and the newbie fans won't get the original.

 

[SolsticeZero]

Worf's grandfather to be pedantic.

A Worf is a Worf, be it Colonel Worf or Lieutenant Worf

 

[kharma45]

A Worf is a Worf, be it Colonel Worf or Lieutenant Worf

Touché.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

This thread was inevitable.

Make a shiny and dumb remake of a piece of fiction which was admired for completely different qualities, and the newbie fans won't get the original.

To be fair, Into Darkness isn't really a remake at all (there's quotes & references, but the two films are doing different things, and the plot isn't really similar at all) and the whole point of the new movies is to get entirely new fans, because there's way more people who AREN'T fans of Star Trek than are.

A Worf is a Worf,

of course, of course.

 

[The Librarian]

I'll take it!

Good, so we cool?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I'll have you know I put my hand up to the monitor.

 

[BocoDragon]

To be fair, Into Darkness isn't really a remake at all (there's quotes & references, but the two films are doing different things, and the plot isn't really similar at all) and the whole point of the new movies is to get entirely new fans, because there's way more people who AREN'T fans of Star Trek than are.

Yes, that's true. But if you think about it, Into Darkness retreads certain Kahn plot points more than some actual remakes (ie Dawn of the Dead). It invites comparisons.

But regardless, we have a new fanbase and inevitably, a lot of them are going to go back and shit on the old stuff because they were bred as an entirely different type of fan.

Same goes for new Doctor Who, Star Wars prequels, etc.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

The only thing I took out of this thread is that everyone who has common sense knows that Undiscovered Country is the superior Star Trek film. It never gets old, has just the right amounts of action, adventure, and charm, a plot that works, and even played off of cultural realities at the time (fall of the USSR).

It's simply the best of the ST films.

 

[SolsticeZero]

The only thing I took out of this thread is that everyone who has common sense knows that Undiscovered Country is the superior Star Trek film. It never gets old, has just the right amounts of action, adventure, and charm, a plot that works, and even played off of cultural realities at the time (fall of the USSR).

It's simply the best of the ST films.

It's the "Hunt for Red October" of the Star Trek universe

 

[UncleSporky]

This thread was inevitable.

Make a shiny and dumb remake of a piece of fiction which was admired for completely different qualities, and the newbie fans won't get the original.

I'm a longtime fan, saw the original ages ago.

Old Spock talking about how dangerous his version of Khan was prompted me to watch the old shows with him again. He was greatly exaggerating. Like, a ton.

A prompt to pay attention to a certain aspect of an older film can certainly lead to reassessment of its merits.

 

[BocoDragon]

I'm a longtime fan, saw the original ages ago.

Old Spock talking about how dangerous his version of Khan was prompted me to watch the old shows with him again. He was greatly exaggerating. Like, a ton.

Yes, I agree. And that's a flaw of the new one. The new series clumsily leverages legacy references in order to give itself legitimacy.

 

[UncleSporky]

Yes, I agree. And that's a flaw of the new one. The new series clumsily leverages legacy references in order to give itself legitimacy.

It's a flaw in the old one too, when you realize the threat was pretty toothless for the entire thing, that this great, strong, smart villain actually behaved quite foolishly and accomplished little, and the moments you thought were dramatic were not because the good guys always were in total control.

 

[BocoDragon]

It's a flaw in the old one too, when you realize the threat was pretty toothless for the entire thing, that this great, strong, smart villain actually behaved quite foolishly and accomplished little, and the moments you thought were dramatic were not because the good guys always were in total control.

He wasn't supposed to be some galactic threat. He was a minor villain of the week in the TV show, and then brought back as a fan favorite in a big screen adventure.

I'll blame 30 years of fandom as well as the new films for overhyping this rather simple (but enjoyable) villain.

 

[See You Next Wednesday]

Good acting, coherent non-insulting plot, well written dialog, sensible, logical story, actual tension. All the things 'Into Darkness' failed to produce.

 

[Tookay]

WOK is a great film, if a little dated and cheesy in some parts.

OP is right that it doesn't focus on the whole cast, but that isn't a problem unless you want it to be; it focuses (rightly) on Kirk. It's about breaking his whole character down for two hours, with people telling him he's old, with a villain who is obsessed with killing him, and with a son who wants nothing to do with him. Nearly every plotpoint or character deals with this "myth" of Kirk, from the Kobayashi Maru to the death of Spock. And, by the end of the film, Kirk realizes that he is far from old and broken, and having finally faced the "no win" scenario, he chooses to be "young" again, and fight for his life.

You can complain about the execution or screen-chewing or whatever, but it's a story motivated by some good character beats and features set-pieces that feel like natural outgrowths instead of cynical cribbing from better material. And, arguably, it's action scenes are better than Into Darkness's five seconds of "Enterprise getting owned" (the only type of action Orci/Kurtzman/Abrams seem interested in depicting), because it's about cat-and-mouse gamesmanship, with attacks and counterattacks. As a result, there's a clear sense of tension and loss that are earned at a writing level.

 

[UncleSporky]

He wasn't supposed to be some galactic threat. He was a minor villain of the week in the TV show, and then brought back as a fan favorite in a big screen adventure.

I'll blame 30 years of fandom as well as the new films for overhyping this rather simple (but enjoyable) villain.

The point is that it is perfectly acceptable for longtime fans to find flaws with popular films in retrospect. Newcomers can (and will) watch Wrath of Khan and love it, old fans can (and will) rediscover Wrath of Khan and notice its flaws. Don't pigeonhole everyone who dislikes the movie as a "newbie who just doesn't understand, man."

 

[G-Fex]

I was just thinking recently how Undiscovered Country doesn't get as much love.

 

[BocoDragon]

The point is that it is perfectly acceptable for longtime fans to find flaws with popular films in retrospect. Newcomers will watch Wrath of Khan and love it, old fans will rediscover Wrath of Khan and notice its flaws. Don't pigeonhole everyone who dislikes the movie as a "newbie who just doesn't understand, man."

That's a nice fantasy conversation you're having with someone.

I merely said the clash of old vs. new was inevitable.

 

[SirButterstick]

WoK is not only a great ST movie, it's also one of the best films made period. '82 was a great year.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Star Trek First Contact > All Star Trek movies, ever.

This is the only correct answer.

 

[UncleSporky]

That's a nice fantasy conversation you're having with someone.

I merely said the clash of old vs. new was inevitable.

You said "the newbie fans won't get the original," as if the movie is flawless and anyone who feels as if it is somehow flawed doesn't get it.

The newbie fans get it just fine, they just have a different opinion from you.

Does it make any sense to say "make a remake of a piece of fiction and the old fans won't get it?" I don't think so, I wouldn't assume that about you at all. Your opinion is as valid as any other.

 

[Tookay]

He wasn't supposed to be some galactic threat. He was a minor villain of the week in the TV show, and then brought back as a fan favorite in a big screen adventure.

I'll blame 30 years of fandom as well as the new films for overhyping this rather simple (but enjoyable) villain.

And you know what, Khan's actual smallness is what makes him an enjoyable character to me. He doesn't have a lot of depth, but he's played with a lot of gusto and his long-lasting, obsessive pettiness makes him a good foil to Kirk's own obsession with age and death. It ties perfectly into the themes of the past mistakes (see: Kirk's son) and unwinnable scenarios.

 

[MisterHero]

I appreciate WoK as a science fiction movie, so it tops UC by a tiny bit.

Sure, Khan's desire for a new world in Space Seed didn't work out. He had Genesis, the power to create a new world, and yet his rage wouldn't let him escape with his life and crew. We wouldn't find out until III that Genesis was a failure, so escaping was a possibility was open to Khan the entire time.

The TOS movies had sci-fi themes with very different degrees of success.

TMP - V'ger, a machine trying to understand life after cataloguing all non-sentient matter.
II - Genesis and the extinguished hope for Khan's own civilization
III - The end of Genesis, a Vulcan death/rebirth
IV - the whale aliens looking for their kind on earth
V - an entity pretending to be the answer to all civilizations
VI - a political detective story with real world analogues (what sci-fi?)

I didn't think VI's sci-fi theme was strong, but it was still a tightly woven plot. Wrath of Khan had the Federation toying with a process to create worlds.

Maybe the appraoch to a sci-fi Trek can be thought of like this: "Is this right or wrong?" rather than "Who's stronger? The Enterprise crew or this one madman?". Khan's significance in WoK is also the result of Space Seed's own sci-fi scenario: "Could he build a world for himself if Kirk gave him everything he needed?"

WoK is content with being a personal story between Kirk and Khan. Starfleet isn't needed in this instance.