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Just watched Wrath Of Khan for the first time

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W

Wilbur

Banned
That's what people think is better than the new Star Treks?

I mean, it was pretty good. Montalban was fun, but apart from that none of the rest of the cast were anything other than meh. Sulu, Chekhov and Uhura have even less to do than in Into Darkness. Spock literally does fuck all but stand there looking pensive until the last five minutes. Even Khan isn't really the superior intellectual that I was led to believe. Just ignores the bloke telling him the shields are down, then flops about in pain with his admittedly impressive chest out.

I quite enjoyed it, but I'm surprised at the flak STID gets when the supposed best ST movie is this. It doesn't have the plot holes STID does I guess but... meh.

/shitthread
 
Z

Zzoram

Member
This movie had the balls to have the villain and hero never actually meet face to face.

Nowadays every hero and villain have to have a fist fight.
 
M

marrec

Banned
It was the best of the original movies, and probably the best material ever spawned out of the original series. Have you watched any of the other older Star Trek movies and or TV for the context behind why it's considered so good?
 
S

SolsticeZero

Banned
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country is by far the best of the original movies. I love Wrath of Khan, but there's a bit of "Genesis" filler in there. Plus, The Undiscovered Country has this motherfucker:

Star_Trek_General_Chang_freecomputerdesktopwallpaper_1600.jpg
Click to expand...

General motherfucking Chang
 
G

glaurung

Member
PJV3 said:
I prefer the one with whales in it.
Click to expand...
The Journey Home with all of its cheese is my favorite too.

Star Trek has not aged well in terms of movie contents. Yet I can look back with fondness at a childhood when Enemy Mine was so scary in the cinema that I had to leave in the middle.

Wrath of Khan has the same charm. But it is a horribly hard sell after you've seen the 2009 Trek movie and consider that a yardstick.
 
R

RC

Banned
There hasn't been a Star Trek movie that's surpassed Wrath of Kahn. The Undiscovered country came closest.
 
W

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
Agreed. Pretty much why I only lurk the STID thread. People look back on old Star Trek movies with such rose-tinted glasses that it would take a reboot to be at the level of The Dark Knight before most fans were satisfied.

I mean, in the new one alone it had Kahn break a persons leg just to keep then out of his way. You'd NEVER see anything like that in old ST movies.
 
H

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Those secondary characters have nothing to do because Wrath of Khan (and for that matter, the original series in general) was much less of an ensemble piece than the new movies or Trek in general afterwards. The movie is essentially about Kirk coming to terms with mortality, and taking this captain who just zoomed across the galaxy being awesome, grounding him with family issues and bringing old mistakes back to haunt him.
 
W

Wilbur

Banned
Zzoram said:
This movie had the balls to have the villain and hero never actually meet face to face.

Nowadays every hero and villain have to have a fist fight.
Click to expand...

I'm not criticising that per se, just that Khan didnt really come across as threatening to me. There was nothing that showed his superior strength and intellect really.

marrec said:
It was the best of the original movies, and probably the best material ever spawned out of the original series. Have you watched any of the other older Star Trek movies and or TV for the context behind why it's considered so good?
Click to expand...

Watched a fair few episodes of the OG show after I went to see STID, including the one with Khan that sets up this. It's pretty good, I enjoy it. But I was just expecting more from this one specifically. It's a solid film, but I've read criticisms of STID that I assumed wouldn't have been in this one considering this is the yardstick for which it's being measured
 
N

Napoleonthechimp

Member
CoffeeJanitor said:
People don't like into Darkness? Just ignore them
Click to expand...

Some of us value good writing.

If you don't think Wrath of Khan is any good then keep in mind that "Into Darkness" is ripping it off... poorly.

whytemyke said:
Agreed. Pretty much why I only lurk the STID thread. People look back on old Star Trek movies with such rose-tinted glasses that it would take a reboot to be at the level of The Dark Knight before most fans were satisfied.

I mean, in the new one alone it had Kahn break a persons leg just to keep then out of his way. You'd NEVER see anything like that in old ST movies.
Click to expand...
In "Into Darkness" you have whizz bang special effects. Who gives a fuck?

Learn to value more than mindless action sequences and you won't have Hollywood churning out garbage movies every year.
 
Z

Zzoram

Member
Desibabu said:
There hasn't been a Star Trek movie that's surpassed Wrath of Kahn. The Undiscovered country came closest.
Click to expand...

I think The Undiscovered Country is better. The Undiscovered Country is about soldiers on both sides being unable to bring themselves to stop the hating and fighting they have grown used to even when peace is within reach.
 
T

Tenumi

Banned
Solstice said:
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country is by far the best of the original movies. I love Wrath of Khan, but there's a bit of "Genesis" filler in there.
Click to expand...

I have to completely agree. I've watched Wrath of Khan many times over the years, but only recently got to watch The Undiscovered Country. Man, I was missing out. It's aged great as well.
 
A

Anton Sugar

Member
I had never seen Wrath of Khan until last year--no rose-tinted glasses for me. That movie RULED, even if it was a little full of itself at times. Montalban knocked that shit OUT THE PARK.

EDIT: Now I need to watch Undiscovered Country.
 
S

SolsticeZero

Banned
Anton Sugar said:
I had never seen Wrath of Khan until last year--no rose-tinted glasses for me. That movie RULED, even if it was a little full of itself at times. Montalban knocked that shit OUT THE PARK.

EDIT: Now I need to watch Undiscovered Country.
Click to expand...

Watch it ASAP. Christopher Plummer is fucking amazing in it.
 
Z

Zzoram

Member
Wilbury said:
I'm not criticising that per se, just that Khan didnt really come across as threatening to me. There was nothing that showed his superior strength and intellect really.
Click to expand...

Superior strength isn't particularly useful if you're in a space ship vs space ship fight. As for the intellect, we re supposed to believe he is blinded by rage and a desire for revenge against Kirk.
 
M

Muitnorts

Member
Saw it for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I don't understand why it's valued so highly at all. Spock dies, sure, but it didn't feel relevant to the plot really it just happened.
I enjoyed Into Darkness much more. I also enjoy most random TNG episodes more.
 
W

Wilbur

Banned
Muitnorts said:
Saw it for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I don't understand why it's valued so highly at all. Spock dies, sure, but it didn't feel relevant to the plot really it just happened.
I enjoyed Into Darkness much more. I also enjoy most random TNG episodes more.
Click to expand...

Mm, especially considering he'd done nothing for the entire movie. Obviously it would have more of an effect on those that watched it from the 60s to then, but that means its only really affecting for a small group of people
 
C

Carcetti

Member
Solstice said:
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country is by far the best of the original movies. I love Wrath of Khan, but there's a bit of "Genesis" filler in there. Plus, The Undiscovered Country has this motherfucker:



General motherfucking Chang
Click to expand...

I've always liked that Chang stapled his eyepatch into his face.
 
M

marrec

Banned
Wilbury said:
Watched a fair few episodes of the OG show after I went to see STID, including the one with Khan that sets up this. It's pretty good, I enjoy it. But I was just expecting more from this one specifically. It's a solid film, but I've read criticisms of STID that I assumed wouldn't have been in this one considering this is the yardstick for which it's being measured
Click to expand...

Would you say that as a film STID is better than Wrath of Kahn?

I haven't seen Into Darkness yet so I can't really argue either way, but I consider Wrath of Kahn to be categorically better than the Star Trek reboot from 2009.
 
S

surrealist

Member
Wrath of Khan is fantastic. The entire sequence with the Enterprise and Reliant duking it out was fantastic. And watching a crippled Enterprise trying to out run the Reliant's self destruction radius while Khan was cursing Kirk is intense. STID had to drop the Enterprise into Earth free fall and it still doesn't match the intensity WOK had.
 
T

tycoonheart

Member
I watched it again about a month ago after not having it watched for years.

It still holds up and is easily the best Trek movie. At least for me.
 
W

Wilbur

Banned
marrec said:
Would you say that as a film STID is better than Wrath of Kahn?

I haven't seen Into Darkness yet so I can't really argue either way, but I consider Wrath of Kahn to be categorically better than the Star Trek reboot from 2009.
Click to expand...

If you thought WoK was better that ST09, you'll think it's better than STID. Maybe it's my modern day sensibilities or the fact that ST09 and ID were the only Star Trek things I'd ever watched before these ones, but it's just a more enjoyable movie for me. I was able to look past the plot holes just because I was so entertained; I acknowledged they were there but they didnt obscure my feelings on the film.
 
H

How About No

Member
Also watched Wrath of Khan and Undiscovered Country recently after a long time...they are both still pretty great, even Country with its blatant Soviet allegories.
 
J

JB1981

Member
Napoleonthechimp said:
Some of us value good writing.

If you don't think Wrath of Khan is any good then keep in mind that "Into Darkness" is ripping it off... poorly.


In "Into Darkness" you have whizz bang special effects. Who gives a fuck?

Learn to value more than mindless action sequences and you won't have Hollywood churning out garbage movies every year.
Click to expand...

What was so much smarter about this movie? Please tell me. I love Wrath of Khan btw.

Agree with everyone else that Star Trek 6 is great. I just watched it last night. Great movie. A very fitting end to the franchise and, not surprisingly, it was directed by the same director as Khan. Nicholas Meyer made the two best OG Star Trek movies by far
 
M

marrec

Banned
Wilbury said:
If you thought WoK was better that ST09, you'll think it's better than STID. Maybe it's my modern day sensibilities or the fact that ST09 and ID were the only Star Trek things I'd ever watched before these ones, but it's just a more enjoyable movie for me. I was able to look past the plot holes just because I was so entertained; I acknowledged they were there but they didnt obscure my feelings on the film.
Click to expand...

It probably is just a product of the surrounding context, which is why I'd asked about seeing earlier original series episodes. By the time ST09 came out we'd already had hundreds of hours of Star Trek material to compare it to and be disappointed about in that comparison. Not that ST09 was a bad movie (or Into Darkness, from what I hear) it's just going for a completely different type of Sci-Fi and happens to have a lot of Star Trek names and objects from that universe.

The fact that you can even recognize Wrath of Khan as a decent film in comparison to the two recent ones is enough to prove it's sustainability as a stand-alone Sci-Fi masterpiece.
 
W

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
Napoleonthechimp said:
Some of us value good writing.

If you don't think Wrath of Khan is any good then keep in mind that "Into Darkness" is ripping it off... poorly.


In "Into Darkness" you have whizz bang special effects. Who gives a fuck?

Learn to value more than mindless action sequences and you won't have Hollywood churning out garbage movies every year.
Click to expand...
Why can't I value a good summer movie at the same time I value low-key dramatic films? The week before I saw STID I went and saw Disconnect. How many people have seen that? Have you?

You people act like there's some mutual exclusion between a Hollywood that can make good artistic cinema and one that can make blockbusters. There's not, and trying to lecture people who enjoy watching a Star Trek movie where something actually happens, more that Shatner over-acting every single line, is absolutely stupid.
 
J

Jburton

Banned
Wrath of Khan is the best Star Trek movie ........ I really enjoy the JJ ST movies but Wrath still shits on it from a great height.
 
N

Napoleonthechimp

Member
STID is a meaningless movie that takes the memorable scenes from ST6 and uses them in a pointless way. ST6's sacrifice scene was far more emotionally charged than the strange version found in STID (
Spock bawls his eyes out but doesn't shed a tear when his entire planet blows up?
), and it is likely the single scene that people remember the most.

People criticise STID because it is ultimately hollow and meaningless. It is a movie where things happen within the movie but yet they have no lasting impact; in fact that could easily summarise the entire movie.

There is no such problem with the first of the rebooted Star Trek movies. Even that had more depth to it than the new one.

whytemyke said:
Why can't I value a good summer movie at the same time I value low-key dramatic films? The week before I saw STID I went and saw Disconnect. How many people have seen that? Have you?

You people act like there's some mutual exclusion between a Hollywood that can make good artistic cinema and one that can make blockbusters. There's not, and trying to lecture people who enjoy watching a Star Trek movie where something actually happens, more that Shatner over-acting every single line, is absolutely stupid.
Click to expand...
It can make blockbusters with depth, or it can make garbage like STID that is entirely an action spectacle. Paramount will go for the latter because they know they'll attract a bigger audience, and at the end of the day money is the name of the game.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
For all that I love Wrath of Khan

Comments in the STID thread did make me notice on rewatch a few days later that the infamous scream is pretty meaningless
 
J

JB1981

Member
One thing that stood out to me when watching these movies is how much better the Star Wars movies aged from the same period. The Trek movies must have had small budgets or worse visual fx teams.
 
T

teruterubozu

Member
Htown said:
Those secondary characters have nothing to do because Wrath of Khan (and for that matter, the original series in general) was much less of an ensemble piece than the new movies or Trek in general afterwards. The movie is essentially about Kirk coming to terms with mortality, and taking this captain who just zoomed across the galaxy being awesome, grounding him with family issues and bringing old mistakes back to haunt him.
Click to expand...

Takei claims that by this point Shatner was muscling everyone out of key scenes.
 
T

Truant

Member
Zzoram said:
This movie had the balls to have the villain and hero never actually meet face to face.

Nowadays every hero and villain have to have a fist fight.
Click to expand...

6/10

Also, on Gaf, the only thing more important than your opinion is other peoples opinion on your opinion.
 
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