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[Raist]

I acknowledge this problem but it's not as widespread as you say. For example this is what I said about Capcom in this very thread:

I completely agree with you. The last Capcom game I've bought is Okami, and these jerks have killed the studio.

 

[fortified_concept]

who exactly would you say IS making something hd-specific that is nothing like what would have been released last generation? i'm pressed to think of one.

Off the top of my head, games like Call of Duty 4, Uncharted, Red Faction, Killzone, Mirror's Edge, Bioshock, LittleBigPlanet and The Last Guardian.

Some for the fact that physics, animation and lighting play an important role in the game experience, many for their amazing presentation, others for the general atmosphere which wouldn't be possible in the previous gens (for example the amazing atmosphere TLG offers and the feeling of empathy for the creature it creates which helps the game easily surpass the previous ones of the franchise in that area).

 

[Nirolak]

There's a difference between talking about a decline and a slow/quiet TGS, and saying shit like "OMG WE'RE FINISHED! LONG LIVE THE AMERICAN DEVELOPERS! *sucks more Western cock*" which Inafune loves doing. Other developers like Kojima have a much more positive and pragmatic way of expressing the same thing. He will readily admit that Japanese developers have something to learn from the West in terms of workflow and development cycles, but at the same time he doesn't go out of his way to sound like a tard who wants so desperately to be accepted in the West that he starts slagging off his own country.

In all fairness though his attitude did seem to make Capcom the third most profitable publisher last quarter. And that was the quarter *after* RE5 and SF4 released.

Of course this is still a rather heavy handed approach of ragging on a regional industry.

 

[MrHicks]

the last guardian and other stereotypical unique shit from japan makes up for the crap state the rest of the japanese console developers are in

western devs are raping this gen though thats for sure (space marines excluded)

 

[Castle Doctrine]

Maybe I should have worded better my post because it seems some people have misunderstood me.

I'm not saying that a developer becomes automatically lazy by developing for handhelds. I'm saying that they've fallen far behind western developers by focusing so much on handhelds which provide easy money from sales in the local market. It doesn't mean you have to abandon a part of the industry just because you can make quick money on another.

But I'll insist on the horrible presentation and old gameplay mechanics being easier to hide on handhelds. Most DS RPGs for example would look just as bad if remade for HD as TriAce RPGs look on next gen consoles.

HD developers have made great progress on animation, presentation, character interaction with other characters or the environment while implementing stuff like physics and lighting on gameplay. HD games can offer more enemies, bigger environments, amazing atmosphere or for example depict the chaos of war much better than previous gen gaming devices ever could. The way I see it, updated graphics isn't only thing HD consoles offer, it's a new game experience.

Maybe I've become spoiled by all of the above or maybe it's because game presentation means a lot to me but sometimes it's hard to go back to handhelds. I'm not saying handheld games aren't fun but the reason why there are new console and handheld generations is to keep things fresh, and things don't feel fresh on the handheld front anymore.

To conclude, I'm not trying to bash handheld gaming, I just think that Japanese developers are focusing too much on it while western devs are talking over everything else.

This. People champion handhelds, but one of the reasons they sell so well is because they're cheaper, portable, and quite simply easier to own, not only because they supposedly have superior games. It's a different experience. You can play it while riding in the backseat of a car or it's easier to take with you to school. I don't see why home consoles and handhelds can't continue to coexist indefinitely. I hope HD consoles don't disappear, because playing games on a tiny effin screen cannot compare to the experience of playing an amazing looking and sounding game on an HD screen. Come on.

The future of gaming hopefully isn't handhelds only, because if it is that's when I quit gaming.

 

[dimb]

Japanese developers keep recycling the same ideas from 1996. Western developers keep recycling the same ideas from 2001. Six or seven years from now western games will feel just as stale as most Japanese games (assuming you aren't already feeling it.)

 

[Deku]

This. People champion handhelds, but one of the reasons they sell so well is because they're cheaper, portable, and quite simply easier to own, not only because they supposedly have superior games. It's a different experience. You can play it while riding in the backseat of a car or it's easier to take with you to school. I don't see why home consoles and handhelds can't continue to coexist indefinitely. I hope HD consoles don't disappear, because playing games on a tiny effin screen cannot compare to the experience of playing an amazing looking and sounding game on an HD screen. Come on.

The future of gaming hopefully isn't handhelds only, because if it is that's when I quit gaming.

I love how five years into a cycle that's so obviously dominated by handhelds, someone can come along and write off a platform's entire library by using the 'price' and 'portability' argument.

Granted those two factors play some role in defining what handhelds are as gaming machines, consoles are just as affected by their non-portability and size giving it certain other advantages. It's not really a reason in asmuch as it's just a feature.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Off the top of my head, games like Call of Duty 4, Uncharted, Red Faction, Killzone, Mirror's Edge, Bioshock, LittleBigPlanet and The Last Guardian.

Some for the fact that physics, animation and lighting play an important role in the game experience, many for their amazing presentation, others for the general atmosphere which wouldn't be possible in the previous gens (for example the amazing atmosphere TLG offers and the feeling of empathy for the creature it creates which helps the game easily surpass the previous ones of the franchise in that area).

But those aren't new and imaginative(okay I'll give you Uncharted, LBP, and TLG, but only because I love them so much ) they're the same stuff but better.

I think the reason we're still arguing is because we don't even get what each other are about.

You're talking about Japanese games not improving on old stuff. And I'm talking about completely new shit they're doing on handhelds.

Japanese developers keep recycling the same ideas from 1996. Western developers keep recycling the same ideas from 2001. Six or seven years from now western games will feel just as stale as most Japanese games (assuming you aren't already feeling it.)

This pretty much describes how I feel.

 

[Castle Doctrine]

Japanese developers keep recycling the same ideas from 1996. Western developers keep recycling the same ideas from 2001. Six or seven years from now western games will feel just as stale as most Japanese games (assuming you aren't already feeling it.)

However, I think western games are at least taking baby steps in the right direction. Games like Bioshock had interesting adult themes and art direction, Uncharted has normal human beings, Mirror's Edge has a breakthrough game mechanic, Heavy Rain is attempting adult themes and presentation, Mass Effect has something I do know what it is I never played it but I wanted to throw a 360 game in there, and on and on.

Western developers do need to get out of their extended adolesncence and quit it with the baddass sterotypes, and find some other gameplay other than running around shooting everyone the whole time, but at least they're advancing in the right direction.

 

[Tiktaalik]

I think most of this is about Capcom doing really well, and Inafune looking around, seeing a bunch of stuff that isn't going to sell outside of Japan's shrinking market and a bunch of Monster Hunter clones and using this as bragging rights to show how much better and Capcom is doing than everyone else. Folks may think his comment is exaggerated, but it's a show mostly Japanese game devs, so why not lump them together and say that the Japanese industry (aside from Capcom of course) is in the dumps?

 

[Man God]

Doom came out in the mid 90's, as did 16-bit sports games and simcity. That's like 99.9% of all western influences right there.

 

[Fersis]

The man is right, Kojima has been saying this for a long time now.
The japanese tech is so behind its not even funny, check MGS4 for example.

 

[Castle Doctrine]

I love how five years into a cycle that's so obviously dominated by handhelds, someone can come along and write off a platform's entire library by using the 'price' and 'portability' argument.

Granted those two factors play some role in defining what handhelds are as gaming machines, consoles are just as affected by their non-portability and size giving it certain other advantages. It's not really a reason in asmuch as it's just a feature.

I didn't write off their library, I just said price and portability are one of the reasons, or two actually. I didn't say they don't have good games, although I did say "supposedly superior games" which maybe came off the wrong way. Probably should have left that part out.

I does get annoying however when people brag about handhelds being a superior gaming experience as if the small screen is only an incidental, unimportant aspect. The two things are totally different experiences to me and shouldn't really be compared. Like I said, they hopefully can coexist peacefully.

 

[freddy]

Maybe I've become spoiled by all of the above or maybe it's because game presentation means a lot to me but sometimes it's hard to go back to handhelds. I'm not saying handheld games aren't fun but the reason why there are new console and handheld generations is to keep things fresh, and things don't feel fresh on the handheld front anymore.

To conclude, I'm not trying to bash handheld gaming, I just think that Japanese developers are focusing too much on it while western devs are talking over everything else.

That's what happens when you have roughly 160 million handhelds sold and only about 55 million HD consoles sold. If anything, you're lucky to get what you are. Companies are going broke catering to the smallest userbase. Be thankful.

 

[Metal Gear?!]

And have them turn out to be another Bionic Commando? No thanks, Japan. I rather have you bomb/die and take your IPs with you than have Western Developers that don't "get it" with your games.

Example: Front Mission Evolved (though that's more Square trying to kill their own franchise more than anything).

Hey now, GRIN totally "got" Bionic Commando with Re-Armed. More, in fact, than the western dev who made "Elite Forces" years back. They just really didn't quite get it in 3D.

It feels like Batman: AA, Red Faction: Guerilla, Dead Space, Fallout 3, Left 4 Dead and Mass Effect.

So... PC Games? There's your problem right there.

 

[Paracelsus]

That's what happens when you have roughly 160 million handhelds sold and only about 55 million HD consoles sold. If anything, you're lucky to get what you are. Companies are going broke catering to the smallest userbase. Be thankful.

Yeah, too bad PSP support is nothing compared to the DS one. Please, explain the reason why, apart of course from the difference in install base.

 

[fortified_concept]

But those aren't new and imaginative(okay I'll give you Uncharted, LBP, and TLG, but only because I love them so much ) they're the same stuff but better.

I think the reason we're still arguing is because we don't even get what each other are about.

You're talking about Japanese games not improving on old stuff. And I'm talking about completely new shit they're doing on handhelds.

I agree. I didn't say much about innovation anyway, I said that it offers new (as in better) game experiences. Yes you can play a war game on handhelds but its atmosphere and general theme would feel far worse on PSP and laughable on DS compared to HD consoles. Same applies for survival horror, action adventure, shooters, open world games, platformers, or games like The Last Guardian that depend a lot on presentation. The only genre that hasn't improved much on HD consoles is JRPGs and that's the fault of Japanese developers.

 

[Raist]

The man is right, Kojima has been saying this for a long time now.
The japanese tech is so behind its not even funny, check MGS4 for example.

MGS4 still has the best character models out there as far as I'm concerned
Until Heavy Rain is released, that is. Not very fair to compare both games tho.

 

[Datschge]

I'd actually say western developers are missing the boat by not capitalizing on handhelds, not that Japanese developers are missing it by putting some weight behind them.

This.

Also the issue of Japanese game development on consoles isn't that there are plenty sequels, it's that there are far too few experimental games next to them. The ratio has been dropping since when with the arrival of Xbox 360 being cinematic and having some kind of realism is seen as a precondition for any games on there which cuts out plenty of more experimental approaches right from the start. I think Wii is "suffering" a lack of 3rd party games also due to this. So Inafune couldn't be more wrong if he claims the Western approach to console development needs to be adopt more in Japan, it's actually the complete opposite of that which would help Japanese console development more.

 

[Josh7289]

To Inafune: The Crystal Fucking Bearers, dude, go check it out.

But... What he's saying applies to the game industry everywhere. Most games coming out nowadays suck. However, there are a few bright stars on the horizon (mostly from Japan).

 

[The Steve]

So... PC Games? There's your problem right there.

Why is that a problem? PC games have been ahead of the curve for years.

The problem with Japanese games are, outside of Nintendo, they aren't accessible.

Japanese games usually have poor controls, poor cameras, convoluted storylines with nothing but cliched characters that have anger issues or amnesia.

Japanese games are dying. They need to learn to adapt or just accept their fate and go the way of the 8 track.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Why is that a problem? PC games have been ahead of the curve for years.

The problem with Japanese games are, outside of Nintendo, they aren't accessible.

Japanese games usually have poor controls, poor cameras, convoluted storylines with nothing but cliched characters that have anger issues or amnesia.

Japanese games are dying. They need to learn to adapt or just accept their fate and go the way of the 8 track.

Sounds like you just played FF VII once and went "fuck this shit". :lol

I agree that PC games used to be ahead of the curve, but there need to be more hyped PC exclusives instead of just ports from consoles now a days.

 

[Volcynika]

Why is that a problem? PC games have been ahead of the curve for years.

The problem with Japanese games are, outside of Nintendo, they aren't accessible.

Japanese games usually have poor controls, poor cameras, convoluted storylines with nothing but cliched characters that have anger issues or amnesia.

Japanese games are dying. They need to learn to adapt or just accept their fate and go the way of the 8 track.

I was surprised it took this long to see a response of this type.

 

[WinFonda]

Japan's game industry needs a government bailout.

 

[fortified_concept]

convoluted storylines with nothing but cliched characters that have anger issues or amnesia.
.

Oh please. You don't want me to start my complaints about the typical macho douchebag marine characters in PC games (or games from former PC devs like Epic) or the annoyingly similar Tolkien knock-off storylines and characters in most PC RPGs. If you're gonna generalize that way make sure your side doesn't have the same problems either.

 

[FateBreaker]

The only reason TGS is underwhelming is because Nintendo didn't attend.

hahahahahahaha

 

[Fimbulvetr]

I was surprised it took this long to see a response of this type.

GAFers are more intelligent than you give them credit for.

Well most of 'em.:lol

 

[The Steve]

Oh please. You don't want me to start my complaints about the typical macho douchebag marine characters in PC games (or games from former PC devs like Epic) or the annoyingly similar Tolkien knock-off storylines and characters in most PC RPGs. If you're gonna generalize that way make sure your side doesn't have the same problems either.

Are you talking about the space marines in GTA4? Or Saints Row? or do you mean the space marines in God of War?

I know, you must be talking about the space marines in Assassins Creed. Left 4 Dead had some crazy space marines, as did Bioshock, and InFamous, and Uncharted, and Fallout 3, and in Crackdown, and Condemned, and Mirror's Edge, and Splinter Cell...

Should I continue?

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Are you talking about the space marines in GTA4? Or Saints Row? or do you mean the space marines in God of War?

I know, you must be talking about the space marines in Assassins Creed. Left 4 Dead had some crazy space marines, as did Bioshock, and InFamous, and Uncharted, and Fallout 3, and in Crackdown, and Condemned, and Mirror's Edge, and Splinter Cell...

Should I continue?

Do Layle, Zidane, WOL, Luneth, Ike, Dante, Ico, Wander, Yuri, Tudis, LLoyd etc. have amnesia and/or anger issues?

Should I continue? :lol

 

[Metal Gear?!]

Why is that a problem? PC games have been ahead of the curve for years.

The problem is, how many Japanese devs are good PC devs? Capcom..?

If next gen games "feel-like" PC games, then isn't the problem that Japan has so few PC developers?

 

[Armitage]

Japanese titles that are considered AAA almost always have crazy deficiencies that fans just gloss over. JRPGs are almost all terrible games with gameplay that is awful and is stuck in 1985. Acting, writing and directing that are atrocious. If MGS4 was developed in the states you could bet the story, voice acting, and so on would be produced to a MUCH higher standard. Zelda still uses terrible sounding midi music. Japanese developers aren't changing because the manbabies still buy their shit and convince themselves that these games are any good.

Do Layle, Zidane, WOL, Luneth, Ike, Dante, Ico, Wander, Yuri, Tudis, LLoyd etc. have amnesia and/or anger issues?

Should I continue? :lol

These are mostly saturday-morning cartoon level characters, so you're not really making a good point here.

 

[JaMarco]

Then he needs to get working on Mega Man Legends 3 so he can revive the industry.

iknorite? :lol

 

[djtiesto]

North American and European developers have always been ahead of Japanese developers in most genres. They haven't actually gotten better...they've just focused on more mainstream genres and platforms (consoles).

That said, Japanese devs were much better last generation.

Really? They were always ahead of Japanese developers in platformers, fighters, shmups, 2D action?

 

[TunaLover]

Are you talking about the space marines in GTA4? Or Saints Row? or do you mean the space marines in God of War?

I know, you must be talking about the space marines in Assassins Creed. Left 4 Dead had some crazy space marines, as did Bioshock, and InFamous, and Uncharted, and Fallout 3, and in Crackdown, and Condemned, and Mirror's Edge, and Splinter Cell...

Should I continue?

I don´t know if Sam Fisher help to your argument, it´s pretty much a Snake being less jerk =P

Couldn´t resist, it already turns out in a west VS east thread :lol

 

[RurouniZel]

Are you talking about the space marines in GTA4? Or Saints Row? or do you mean the space marines in God of War?

I know, you must be talking about the space marines in Assassins Creed. Left 4 Dead had some crazy space marines, as did Bioshock, and InFamous, and Uncharted, and Fallout 3, and in Crackdown, and Condemned, and Mirror's Edge, and Splinter Cell...

Should I continue?

You're fighting a losing battle dude. They may not be "space marines", but GTA, Saints Row and God of War etc. all feature macho dudes with macho attitudes, even if they're not rippin'.

These are mostly saturday-morning cartoon level characters, so you're not really making a good point here.

His point is it works both ways, not one is better than the other.

 

[ethelred]

this thread is another thinly veiled west vs east troll thread.

I'd say the veil has been lifted.

 

[Armitage]

His point is it works both ways, not one is better than the other.

Bad western characters tend to not be given many lines. Bad Japanese characters have 10 hours of recorded dialogue.

 

[TunaLover]

These are mostly saturday-morning cartoon level characters, so you're not really making a good point here.

Hey at least they don´t hide on a pseudo philosophic doctrine to show their self more intelectually interesting

 

[Fimbulvetr]

I'd say the veil has been lifted.

No, I'm pretty sure most of the people arguing had at at least some sort of intelligent thought they wanted to express.

Someone just had to draw trolls in with the smell of their bullshit.

 

[Armitage]

Hey at least they don´t hide on a pseudo philosophic doctrine to show their self more intelectually interesting

Yes it's good that Japanese games never take themselves too seriously.

 

[RurouniZel]

Bad western characters tend to not be given many lines. Bad Japanese characters have 10 hours of recorded dialogue.

I thought the joke was they didn't talk at all?

And bad is debatable. For every line in a JRPG that makes you groan, I can find one in a WRPG that does the same.

Thus, it works both ways, the argument goes nowhere, thus it's stupid to argue at all.

 

[djtiesto]

I really expected more of you, Armitage

 

[Raist]

God of War?

I'm pretty sure Kratos has some serious anger issues

 

[Fimbulvetr]

These are mostly saturday-morning cartoon level characters, so you're not really making a good point here.

Really?

I count 7 serious characters, 3 saturday morning cartoon characters(one of them intentionally made that way), and 1 character with no lines from an 8-bit game.

 

[Junpei Heat]

Japanese titles that are considered AAA almost always have crazy deficiencies that fans just gloss over. JRPGs are almost all terrible games with gameplay that is awful and is stuck in 1985. Acting, writing and directing that are atrocious. If MGS4 was developed in the states you could bet the story, voice acting, and so on would be produced to a MUCH higher standard. Zelda still uses terrible sounding midi music. Japanese developers aren't changing because the manbabies still buy their shit and convince themselves that these games are any good.




These are mostly saturday-morning cartoon level characters, so you're not really making a good point here.

Oh armitage ;_;

 

[TunaLover]

Yes it's good that Japanese games never take themselves too seriously.

They do, but not western extremeness level for realism :lol

 

[RurouniZel]

I'm pretty sure Kratos has some serious anger issues

See, in the west, anger and angst is A-OK if the result is tons of blood, guts, and sex.**

** gross over-generalization intended to make a point, not as absolute truth

 

[Armitage]

Really?

I count 7 serious characters, 3 saturday morning cartoon characters(one of them intentionally made that way), and 1 character with no lines from an 8-bit game.

They may be written as serious characters but that doesn't mean they're good.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

They may be written as serious characters but that doesn't mean they're good.

And the characters mentioned on this thread for the western side aren't winning awards either. Nathan maybe.

But good job with that goalpost.

 

[Castle Doctrine]

Japanese titles that are considered AAA almost always have crazy deficiencies that fans just gloss over. JRPGs are almost all terrible games with gameplay that is awful and is stuck in 1985. Acting, writing and directing that are atrocious. If MGS4 was developed in the states you could bet the story, voice acting, and so on would be produced to a MUCH higher standard. Zelda still uses terrible sounding midi music. Japanese developers aren't changing because the manbabies still buy their shit and convince themselves that these games are any good.

Maybe you used too much hyper boles but I agree. Actually the entire industry, east and west, needs to grow the fuck up. The average age of gamers has increased and the industry should make games to reflect that and get out of adolescent mindset of male power fantasy characters and immature anime and other silly shit.

edit: There's room for all types of games for all age groups, but every damn game shouldn't be like the ones mentioned above.