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[Firestorm]

I'm not sure how me being an enthusiast about last-gen games makes your comment valid (or less made up)?

You're the one who said some crap about an article on Metroid Prime's narrative. That was just me saying why I loved Prime. I liked the kind of stuff these guys did. If Nintendo wanted to stop them, screw Nintendo.

how do we know the Retro guys werent at fault here? Everyone is so quick to place the blame on big bad bully nintendo as if these employees are completely innocent of any wrongdoing. How do we know they didnt do something? And if we dont know, why are we assuming that Nintendo is just treating them badly? If anything nintendo took this company from the brink of closure to a successful and well known and respected developer of one of their beloved hardcore focused properties. Retro is great now because of nintendo, not despite it.

Because this sounds EXACTLY like what Nintendo does. Retro used to be a shithole, but Nintendo helped fix them up to what they have been for the past 8 years. I don't think they needed to fix something that isn't broken.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

how do we know the Retro guys werent at fault here? Everyone is so quick to place the blame on big bad bully nintendo as if these employees are completely innocent of any wrongdoing. How do we know they didnt do something? And if we dont know, why are we assuming that Nintendo is just treating them badly? If anything nintendo took this company from the brink of closure to a successful and well known and respected developer of one of their beloved hardcore focused properties. Retro is great now because of nintendo, not despite it.

Company history sides with Retro. As Rare, Silicon Knights, and Left Field can attest, Nintendo can be very heavy handed with their western 1st/2nd parties.

They are given very little autonomy, and are often assigned classic Nintendo franchises to work on, having their own original ideas sidetracked. What would happen if MS told Lionhead that they had to make the next MechAssault? Or if Sony told Polyphony Digital that they had to make the next Heavenly Sword?

There is no doubt that Nintendo has aided these studios in making great games, but they've also frequently clashed with the design philosophies and creative minds of everyone they've worked with in the West.

 

[Death_Born]

Oh well, they must have had a good reason for leaving if they quit Retro. The Metroid Prime series was getting stale anyway, the art was too good for the worsening gameplay. Who knows, maybe Retro was assigned to work on "Wii Sports 2" and said "screw it." Hopefully they can put their talents to good use elsewhere.

 

[AceBandage]

Company history sides with Retro. As Rare, Silicon Knights, and Left Field can attest, Nintendo can be very heavy handed with their western 1st/2nd parties.

They are given very little autonomy, and are often assigned classic Nintendo franchises to work on, having their own original ideas sidetracked. What would happen if MS told Lionhead that they had to make the next MechAssault? Or if Sony told Polyphony Digital that they had to make the next Heavenly Sword?

There is no doubt that Nintendo has aided these studios in making great games, but they've also frequently clashed with the design philosophies and creative minds of everyone they've worked with in the West.

It's a double edged sword.
They give them freedom, and they make a bad Twisted Metal clone and are happy.
They structure them, and the create one of the greatest game sin history, but are unhappy.

Eh. Personally, I'll take Metroid Prime.

 

[HK-47]

But out of the 2 games they made, only one of them was AAA.

We all know how sensitive you are about Jungle Beat. Its ok we wont go there

 

[PantherLotus]

You're the one who said some crap about an article on Metroid Prime's narrative. That was just me saying why I loved Prime. I liked the kind of stuff these guys did. If Nintendo wanted to stop them, screw Nintendo.

that's my question: where did you read that nintendo told them to stop? i would like to engage in your well-thought-out theses but I'm not sure how bad of a reader you are. Judging from your responses so far (ad hominem and straw man), I'm going to guess that you don't really have a point other than you want Microsoft to pick them up and "treat them right?" Right?


And why does this have to be fanboi warz? Can you just say why you think or where your read that Retro got screwed by Nintendo, and why you think MS would treat them any better? Am I correct in assuming that you have absolutely no reason at all to be going down this road?

 

[Beezy]

They must have got tired of only making Metroid games. Didn't Nintendo also shoot down some ideas for games that they wanted to work on?

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

Microsoft needs someone to takeover the Halo series.

 

[HK-47]

Oh well, they must have had a good reason for leaving if they quit Retro. The Metroid Prime series was getting stale anyway, the art was too good for the worsening gameplay. Who knows, maybe Retro was assigned to work on "Wii Sports 2" and said "screw it." Hopefully they can put their talents to good use elsewhere.

Only 3 damn guys left. Stop acting as if its the entire company

 

[evilromero]

They must have got tired of only making Metroid games. Didn't Nintendo also shoot down some ideas for games that they wanted to work on?

They would have sucked. Football, car combat and action-RPG- none of them looked particularly inspired.

 

[AceBandage]

They must have got tired of only making Metroid games. Didn't Nintendo also shoot down some ideas for games that they wanted to work on?

Yeah, years ago Miyamoto asked why they were making these games and they just scratched their head. So Miyamoto said "Well, why not make a new Metroid game." and they agreed.

 

[speedpop]

Retro are over-rated anyway!

*takes off his Rare-leaving-Nintendo hat*

 

[HK-47]

They must have got tired of only making Metroid games. Didn't Nintendo also shoot down some ideas for games that they wanted to work on?

Their next project wasnt a Metroid game. The ideas they had shot were shot down years ago, when retro was a fucking mess. People, get your fact straight

 

[Beezy]

Yeah, years ago Miyamoto asked why they were making these games and they just scratched their head. So Miyamoto said "Well, why not make a new Metroid game." and they agreed.

Oh, I thought I heard of something like this happening recently.

Their next project wasnt a Metroid game. The ideas they had shot were shot down years ago, when retro was a fucking mess. People, get your fact straight

I asked a question because I didn't know, genius.

 

[AceBandage]

Their next project wasnt a Metroid game. The ideas they had shot were shot down years ago, when retro was a fucking mess. People, get your fact straight

Seriously. It's pathetic how people will jump to conclusions so quickly. And most of them are "doom and gloom".

 

[PantherLotus]

Seriously. It's pathetic how people will jump to conclusions so quickly. And most of them are "doom and gloom".

MAI CUMPANIE OF CHOISE SHUD HYRE THEMZ N TREET THEMZ RITE

 

[MisterHero]

MAI CUMPANIE OF CHOISE SHUD HYRE THEMZ N TREET THEMZ RITE

HAWT

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

It's a double edged sword.
They give them freedom, and they make a bad Twisted Metal clone and are happy.
They structure them, and the create one of the greatest game sin history, but are unhappy.

Eh. Personally, I'll take Metroid Prime.

You know the only word we have that RavenBlade, Car Combat, and Retro Football were terrible games is Nintendo's right?

The Rare and SK splits were both amicable, but we all know the story of how Nintendo completely dissociated themselves from Conker, and shoehorned the Star Fox license into Dinosaur Planet, resulting in one of the most insulting endings in gaming history. We also know Nintendo did jack shit to promote Eternal Darkness, and it was Miyamoto's idea to assign SK the port of Metal Gear Solid (rather than continue working on Too Human).

At the very least, Nintendo's idea of buying and cultivating talent is vastly different than Sony and MS', who often buy studios with the intent of allowing them to continue making the kind of games they want to make.

 

[Firestorm]

that's my question: where did you read that nintendo told them to stop? i would like to engage in your well-thought-out theses but I'm not sure how bad of a reader you are. Judging from your responses so far (ad hominem and straw man), I'm going to guess that you don't really have a point other than you want Microsoft to pick them up and "treat them right?" Right?


And why does this have to be fanboi warz? Can you just say why you think or where your read that Retro got screwed by Nintendo, and why you think MS would treat them any better? Am I correct in assuming that you have absolutely no reason at all to be going down this road?

Do I have to read something specifically saying Nintendo did this? I'm inferring this information from the sources posted in this topic. You can go tell your bosses that they have a bad reputation and a public statement as to why these three guys left Retro would either fix that or confirm the situation as most people see it.

 

[Bluemercury]

Well, we should hear something about those guys, matt from ign already made some "calls"....

 

[PantherLotus]

Do I have to read something specifically saying Nintendo did this? I'm inferring this information from the sources posted in this topic. You can go tell your bosses that they have a bad reputation and a public statement as to why these three guys left Retro would either fix that or confirm the situation as most people see it.

So you just made shit up then? Damn firestorm, that's all you had to say.

 

[Innotech]

You know the only word we have that RavenBlade, Car Combat, and Retro Football were terrible games is Nintendo's right?

The Rare and SK splits were both amicable, but we all know the story of how Nintendo completely dissociated themselves from Conker, and shoehorned the Star Fox license into Dinosaur Planet, resulting in one of the most insulting endings in gaming history. We also know Nintendo did jack shit to promote Eternal Darkness, and it was Miyamoto's idea to assign SK the port of Metal Gear Solid (rather than continue working on Too Human).

At the very least, Nintendo's idea of buying and cultivating talent is vastly different than Sony and MS', who often buy studios with the intent of allowing them to continue making the kind of games they want to make.

so true. Sony gave Factor5 free reign to create Lair and look how amazing that turned out.

 

[Firestorm]

So you just made shit up then? Damn firestorm, that's all you had to say.

Making shit up =/= making a conclusion based on evidence presented.

 

[PantherLotus]

Making shit up =/= making a conclusion based on evidence presented.

making dumbass conclusions from anecdotes = making shit up




you can have the last word since you seem so intent on defending that shit you made up.

 

[firex]

Miyamoto: "Well bitches, you made Metroid FPS like I wanted. Now it's time for y'all to get the fuck out! Don't make me ice you like I did Yokoi!"

It sucks to see those guys out of a job, but they can make something new. I'm sure they'll get hired or make their own good studio. I'm just hoping this also means Retro doesn't become Nintendo's Western-owned FPS bitch either.

 

[Duality]

There were personnel changes after Metroid Prime too, including director Steve Barcia.

It's just business as usual.

 

[Osuwari]

way to overreact

when i said "as if gameplay is the only thing that matters" i didn't meant them to stop focusing on it. i still want Nintendo to focus on the gameplay like always but i also want more bells and whistles with the great gameplay.

it's like eating a perfectly fine steak with nothing else. add fries, soda or whatever else to accompany it and make it more enjoyable as long as the steak still tastes just as good.

 

[bachikarn]

You know the only word we have that RavenBlade, Car Combat, and Retro Football were terrible games is Nintendo's right?

The Rare and SK splits were both amicable, but we all know the story of how Nintendo completely dissociated themselves from Conker, and shoehorned the Star Fox license into Dinosaur Planet, resulting in one of the most insulting endings in gaming history. We also know Nintendo did jack shit to promote Eternal Darkness, and it was Miyamoto's idea to assign SK the port of Metal Gear Solid (rather than continue working on Too Human).

At the very least, Nintendo's idea of buying and cultivating talent is vastly different than Sony and MS', who often buy studios with the intent of allowing them to continue making the kind of games they want to make.

Uh, there were leaked videos of RavenBlade and it looked like complete ass. There is no way anyone can argue that Retro was doing a good job before Nintendo came in and completely restructured it. And you also make it seem like SK was forced to make MGS. From what I remember, Dayak (spelling?) was completely jizzing over the chance to do a MGS port. And he has said numerous times he has learned a lot about game design from Nintendo.

 

[Kittonwy]

so true. Sony gave Factor5 free reign to create Lair and look how amazing that turned out.

Sony never bought Factor 5. They did buy Naughty Dog and Naughty Dog is still making great games.

 

[Spirit Icana]

Miyamoto: "Well bitches, you made Metroid FPS like I wanted. Now it's time for y'all to get the fuck out! Don't make me ice you like I did Yokoi!"

I think Miyamoto has great respect for Yokoi. Yokoi was Miyamoto's master before Donkey Kong on the arcades. Jokes like yours don't make much sense.

 

[n1n9tean]

Escorted off the premises?

LOL ROFL Exactly.

What did they do, knock over 3 server racks? :lol :lol :lol

 

[SantaC]

Eh Retro has been losing key talent since Prime 1 was released. Remember Zoid? It's not strange that the Prime games was getting worse with each iteration.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

so true. Sony gave Factor5 free reign to create Lair and look how amazing that turned out.

Sony published (or moneyhatted) Lair and Heavenly Sword, as they did with Motorstorm. They liked how the latter worked out and bought the studio, putting them to work on Motorstorm 2.

Factor 5 and Ninja Theory's games were less successful, so it's not quite as surprising that they're peddling their wares to other publishers at the moment.

They bought Media Molecule because of the idea they'd already pitched to several publishers for Little Big Planet. MS bought Bungie for Halo, Lionhead for Fable, Rare for Perfect Dark/Conker/Banjo.

Just because Nintendo doesn't trust Western devs to come up with great content when left to their own devices doesn't mean that they can't. You have to take the good with the bad. As fun as Twin Snakes was, it's a Japanese game through and through, not an SK game, it was as much a test of technical competency and a bridge-builder as it was a genuine assignment.

 

[CreatureX3]

Fuck Nintendo. I hope they go to Microsoft who at least seems to respect the companies working under them.

Bungie sure paid a lot of money to get free from Microsoft's "respect" for them! :lol

 

[AceBandage]

Eh Retro has been losing key talent since Prime 1 was released. Remember Zoid? It's not strange that the Prime games was getting worse with each iteration.

Personally, I'd consider 3 to be the best of them all.

 

[PantherLotus]

 

[SantaC]

Personally, I'd consider 3 to be the best of them all.

Well that's a stretch...

 

[beef3483]

I still think they can put out good games. Talent can be replaced. God of War 2 was still well received even though Jaffe wasn't involved in it.

We'll just have to wait and see. The proof will be in the pudding.

Personally, I'd consider 3 to be the best of them all.

Yeah, me too.

 

[AceBandage]

Well that's a stretch...

Not really.
I mean, don't get me wrong, MP1 was an amazing amazing game.
But I liked how Prime 3 immersed you more, instead of another "Samus is alone and just happens to find something" story, it's a "Hey, you guys know Samus is really a bounty hunter and gets real jobs right?". It put you more into her character than any other Metroid game (besides maybe Fusion).

 

[Kittonwy]

I still think they can put out good games. Talent can be replaced. God of War 2 was still well received even though Jaffe wasn't involved in it.

We'll just have to wait and see. The proof will be in the pudding.



Yeah, me too.

That's not true. Jaffe worked on the story and was the creative director for God of War 2. They've essentially crafted the story for 3, even though Jaffe is no longer at Sony, it just depends on how much of Jaffe's story they will now use for 3.

 

[HK-47]

Sony never bought Factor 5. They did buy Naughty Dog and Naughty Dog is still making great games.

Didnt some of the Naughty dog guys have problems with Sony, disagreements shall we say?

 

[_Alkaline_]

This is really sad news, Pacini and Keller especially are pretty highly renowned around here and to lose them will be a big blow to Retro. I'm interested to see what becomes of this move.

Oh and Firestorm, STFU and stop trolling.

 

[camineet]

Escorted off the premises?

Yeah, I was like, WTH for?

 

[beef3483]

That's not true. Jaffe worked on the story and was the creative director for God of War 2. They've essentially crafted the story for 3, even though Jaffe is no longer at Sony, it just depends on how much of Jaffe's story they will now use for 3.

He still wasn't working in the same capacity as before right? Wasn't it Balrog who did most of the heavy lifting on God of War 2, taking the role of director?

My point is that it is not unfeasible for somebody below them to step in and fill these guys places. It is very common in this industry. Naughty Dog still puts out good games without Jason Rubin.

And it's not as if the whole company is gutted. Kelbaugh is still at Retro, it seems. I'm pretty sure that Retro can survive this.

 

[Barkley's Justice]

i'd want to leave too if i had to work on the same game for 8 years

 

[Kittonwy]

Didnt some of the Naughty dog guys have problems with Sony, disagreements shall we say?

Not that I know of. Who in particular are you specifically referring to? Naughty Dog right now seems to be a happy studio.

 

[scitek]

I'm sure every developer has creative disagreements with their owner/publisher.

 

[Kittonwy]

He still wasn't working in the same capacity as before right? Wasn't it Balrog who did most of the heavy lifting on God of War 2, taking the role of director?

My point is that it is not unfeasible for somebody below them to step in and fill these guys places. It is very common in this industry. Naughty Dog still puts out good games without Jason Rubin.

It's not as if the whole company is gutted. Kelbaugh is still at Retro, it seems. I'm pretty sure that Retro can survive this.

Obviously the creative director role was much less hands-on, but Jaffe was still involved with the game at the time, when you have Santa Monica losing two leads and Barlog recently, it was worrisome, some lamented the departure of Barlog but some didn't, we still don't know how well Santa Monica will adjust and they're still making their PS2-PS3 transition.

My point is that Naughty Dog was in good hands long before Rubin made his exit, and Rubin wasn't in the game director role as far back as Jak 2, and Naughty Dog managed to bring in some outside talent over the years, Naughty Dog just seems much better managed and they've already made a very successful transition, not only in terms of moving from the PS2 to the PS3, but also from their Jak franchise to their new franchise Uncharted.

Naughty Dog and Santa Monica are both monstrously talented studios. We'll see whether Retro can have the same kind of success despite losing three of its key staff in such a short time.

 

[Innotech]

Sony published (or moneyhatted) Lair and Heavenly Sword, as they did with Motorstorm. They liked how the latter worked out and bought the studio, putting them to work on Motorstorm 2.

Factor 5 and Ninja Theory's games were less successful, so it's not quite as surprising that they're peddling their wares to other publishers at the moment.

They bought Media Molecule because of the idea they'd already pitched to several publishers for Little Big Planet. MS bought Bungie for Halo, Lionhead for Fable, Rare for Perfect Dark/Conker/Banjo.

Just because Nintendo doesn't trust Western devs to come up with great content when left to their own devices doesn't mean that they can't. You have to take the good with the bad. As fun as Twin Snakes was, it's a Japanese game through and through, not an SK game, it was as much a test of technical competency and a bridge-builder as it was a genuine assignment.

were talking about Metroid here. you cant just take liberties with such a franchise. You cant just change what you want from one of nintendos franchises just because they farmed it out. Thats the difference here. If it was a game franchise that was different from Nintendos existing ones and nintendo wanted to go a new direction, then yes I could see nintendo giving companies more free reign. But not in this case.

 

[All Hail C-Webb]

Company history sides with Nintendo. As Rare, Silicon Knights, and Left Field can attest

Now that's more like it.
These companies have done jack shit since parting ways with Nintendo. Maybe Nintendo knows what it's doing?