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[Zyzyxxz]

If only Metroid Prime could come out for the PS3.

 

[beef3483]

Obviously the director role was much more hands-on, but Jaffe was still involved with the game.

My point is that Naughty Dog was in good hands long before Rubin made his exit, and Rubin wasn't in the game director role as far back as Jak 2, and Naughty Dog managed to bring in some outside talent over the years.

Naughty Dog and Santa Monica are both monstrously talented studios. We'll see whether Retro can have the same kind of success despite losing three of its key staff in such a short time.

If you ask me Retro is just as talented.

And Nintendo, as a company, has always held very high standards of quality and I don't see that changing regardless of company turnover.

 

[junkwaffle]

 

[Night_Trekker]

What a shame. I hope they do start their own studio and continue making great games.

 

[a Master Ninja]

:lol

 

[TheGrayGhost]

I don't doubt it made sense for Nintendo to do what it did to the projects. It is more what was said about them that worries me. Had Miyamoto said "these game ideas are shitty, cancel them all," it'd be fine but to look at shitty projects and specifically make the complaint that cars with guns on them are dumb is just bizarre. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but Nintendo seems very hard to please.

Miyamoto asked Retro Studios "Why?", the question all artists ask themselves of their work. And you know what? Retro Studios, at the time, couldn't come up with an answer for him. So instead of that, we actually got a game that the Retro Studios team believed in, creating a unique experience and a new genre (and, as it would turn out, the "third best game of all time.") Incidentally, the Prime games are my most treasured gaming experiences.

"Creative freedom," in my experience, is much more demanding than some of you may think.

 

[Firestorm]

I love you junkwaffle.

 

[Chris FOM]

At least is Nintendo gets to keep Retro. For a company that supposedly treats internal studios so well, MS had their number 1 developer threaten to walk out en masse if they weren't granted freedom. Compare Bungie and Retro, and it looks like Retro may be the better of the two situations.

 

[HK-47]

At least is Nintendo gets to keep Retro. For a company that supposedly treats internal studios so well, MS had their number 1 developer threaten to walk out en masse if they weren't granted freedom. Compare Bungie and Retro, and it looks like Retro may be the better of the two situations.

Yes, for Nintendo...Bungie is a bit bigger than Retro

 

[wsippel]

Miyamoto asked Retro Studios "Why?", the question all artists ask themselves of their work. And you know what? Retro Studios, at the time, couldn't come up with an answer for him. So instead of that, we actually got a game that the Retro Studios team believed in, creating a unique experience and a new genre (and, as it would turn out, the "third best game of all time.") Incidentally, the Prime games are my most treasured gaming experiences.

Exactly. It's not enough to come up with an idea, you have to be able to defend it. If you can't defend your idea, it's worthless.

 

[Death_Born]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/junkwaffle/Forum%20Art/escort.jpg

 

[norinrad21]

At least they didn't come in to see they can't enter the building because their security codes have been blocked. Escorted is more like a red carpet treatment :lol :lol :lol

 

[Mithos Yggdrasill]

WTF. Why?

 

[Mithos Yggdrasill]

Their next project is close to being finished and these guys want a different opportunity with another company...or their next project was a clusteruck.

Going by this...



http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1570214/20070920/id_0.jhtml

WTF^100. Not I'm very pessimistic about Retro's next game.

 

[Innotech]

If only Metroid Prime could come out for the PS3.

I dont think people would want a gimped version.

 

[farnham]

Its a shame that a talented developer like pacini leaves retro...

but if you have followed the development course of MP1 its like a tag team match of developers

MP1 basically had three phases of development (the biggest shift was when Nintendo bought Retro and basically canceled all their other games) and the staff changed all the time...

Dunno about MP2 or 3 but while developing MP1 it was just like that...

You can hear about the development of MP1 from Tommy Tallarico here..

 

[Logan Cano]

I dont think people would want a gimped version.

Oh, so you are one of those waggle types.

I'd actually like to see something from these guys on PS3, at the very least it'd be interesting to see what they came up with when not having to follow ridiculous and archaic backtracking design ideas.

 

[sphinx]

regradless of who goes in or out of retro or monolith or whatever:

as long as NoJ sends miyamoto once every 4 months to check how things are going and they send a group of 10 talented developers from their staff in Japan to collaborate with western projects, no need to worry about anything.

 

[PolyGone]

regradless of who goes in or out of retro or monolith or whatever:

as long as NoJ sends miyamoto once every 4 months to check how things are going and they send a group of 10 talented developers from their staff in Japan to collaborate with western projects, no need to worry about anything.

thats funny, what happened to Project Hammer then?

 

[Scrow]

at the very least it'd be interesting to see what they came up with when not having to follow ridiculous and archaic backtracking design ideas.

what? you think they designed the game that way because it was mandated by the franchise or nintendo or something?

 

[Logan Cano]

what? you think they designed the game that way because it was mandated by the franchise or nintendo or something?

Well, MP fans have always mentioned that backtracking is a huge part of the franchise's DNA or something like that. I personally hate it, so it would at least be interesting what they could come up with. Not being tied up by last gen hardware would also be a plus for them I imagine.

 

[beef3483]

thats funny, what happened to Project Hammer then?

It looked like a pretty shitty concept to me. It wouldn't suprise me if that's why it got canned.

 

[PolyGone]

It looked like a pretty shitty concept to me. It wouldn't suprise me if that's why it got canned.

but so long as miyamoto shows up every 4 months to check on things, shouldn't it magically become a golden egg?

 

[Tieno]

Why don't these studios make more of an effort to keep their core talent?

Remember the Bungie-MS split? But it's usually the opposite (studios folding) so yeah...

Bungie sure paid a lot of money to get free from Microsoft's "respect" for them! :lol

I'm happy MS didn't foolishly hold on to them forcing key staff to leave because they didn't have enough freedom.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Oh, so you are one of those waggle types.

I'd actually like to see something from these guys on PS3, at the very least it'd be interesting to see what they came up with when not having to follow ridiculous and archaic backtracking design ideas.

Waggle types?

The game would be downgraded without the motion controls. They worked extremely well in MP3.

 

[beef3483]

but so long as miyamoto shows up every 4 months to check on things, shouldn't it magically become a golden egg?

If you at all payed attention to this thread then you would know that that is not his way.

 

[rakka]

its not so much the fact that they left that worries me, but rather why...

we'll know soon i guess.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

its not so much the fact that they left that worries me, but rather why...

we'll know soon i guess.

Rumor says to start their own dev house. Lets hope thats all there is too it.

AND WHY THE FUCK are people still talking about those old Retro games games getting canned? That was more than 7 years ago, before Prime, when Retro was still a clusterfuck. Shut up, seriously.

 

[Ramirez]

Personally, I'd consider 1 to be the best of them all.

Fixed that for you.

Seriously, this team has been a on slide ever since MP2 came out, although it was still good, neither of the sequels came close to matching the first for me, oh well.

 

[PolyGone]

If you at all payed attention to this thread then you would know that that is not his way.

I was replying to sphinx's comment and being sarcastic, maybe you need to read the thread a little closer

 

[Another_visitor]

Not that I mind this, I like the idea of talented people moving on if it's to found their own development studios (speak to me Bob Rafei, where are you?!).

I agree. It's healthy for creative people to move around & not be tied to one franchise or studio.

 

[beef3483]

I was replying to sphinx's comment and being sarcastic, maybe you need to read the thread a little closer

I know who you were replying to and the context that it was in. And that still doesn't mean that you were right, sarcasm or not.

Fixed that for you.

Seriously, this team has been a on slide ever since MP2 came out, although it was still good, neither of the sequels came close to matching the first for me, oh well.

Well, we all have different tastes. I personally can see how somebody might like Prime 3 over Prime 1. Me personally, I like them all about the same. Each game had unique aspects and there was a level of polish to each that most games can only dream to achieve.

 

[PolyGone]

I know who you were replying to and the context that it was in. And that still doesn't mean that you were right, sarcasm or not.

what? I was trying to point out that key people at retro are more important than quarterly visits from miyamoto to a game's success, otherwise something like Project Hammer should have been turned around by miyamoto's visits. You obviously didn't understand what was being said, or twisted the meaning in your head.

 

[Frencherman]

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/157...920/id_0.jhtml

I don't know guys, reading this I am totally disagreeing with his oppinion about art style and the lack of shaders (TEVs). Also I have never felt comfortable in those strange Prime Worlds. For me Retro is nothing I would worry about if they close, except they proove their diversifying talents in the upcoming game...

 

[AniHawk]

Three down.

 

[Frencherman]

Three down.

Three to replace or more to go??

 

[Truant]

That happens in pretty much every important job, actually.

GAF'd.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Funny, i'll take fantastic game design and a rigid schedule for the developers over shitty design and freedom any day. The thought that people would actually have been content with another football game, a generic car combat game, and Raven Blade (which admittedly had potential, but looked rough as hell when first shown) over fucking METROID PRIME astounds me.

Are we really looking down on Nintendo for being strict on good game design? I have absolutely no problem with that, personally. Now if it could be proven that Nintendo shot down any idea not their own then i'd be a little miffed, but this hardly seems the case.

As for this news, I am a little disheartened that the core Retro group seems to be moving on, but Retro has seen tons of turnover ever since the first Prime. Hell, their lead art designer left after the first game, and frankly I think that was a bigger long-term blow than this.

 

[Ledsen]

Funny, i'll take fantastic game design and a rigid schedule for the developers over shitty design and freedom any day. The thought that people would actually have been content with another football game, a generic car combat game, and Raven Blade (which admittedly had potential, but looked rough as hell when first shown) over fucking METROID PRIME astounds me.

Are we really looking down on Nintendo for being strict on good game design? I have absolutely no problem with that, personally. Now if it could be proven that Nintendo shot down any idea not their own then i'd be a little miffed, but this hardly seems the case.

As for this news, I am a little disheartened that the core Retro group seems to be moving on, but Retro has seen tons of turnover ever since the first Prime. Hell, their lead art designer left after the first game, and frankly I think that was a bigger long-term blow than this.

Oh, so that was why everything suddenly went brown (and purple)

 

[master15]

Metroid Prime was one of my favourite games of last generation and I thought Echoes was a flawed but solid experience. Loosing key personel like that is never good no matter which way you cut it.

The circumstances they left however does seem more of interest.

 

[zoukka]

Well, MP fans have always mentioned that backtracking is a huge part of the franchise's DNA or something like that. I personally hate it, so it would at least be interesting what they could come up with. Not being tied up by last gen hardware would also be a plus for them I imagine.

It's nothing personal but I just had a vision of me slowly putting my hands on your throat and sqqqqquiiiizeeee...

But that's just "good game design over good technical marvels" me talking.

 

[leroy hacker]

You know the only word we have that RavenBlade, Car Combat, and Retro Football were terrible games is Nintendo's right?

No. No. No.

Long before the games were canceled, before Nintendo had full ownership, there were tons of leaks from inside Retro about how the company was completely mismanaged. The games were canceled because Retro had been fucking around for years with nothing to show for it.


From N-Sider's history of Retro studios:

According to employees that were around during Jeff Spangenberg's rule, Jeff had a habit of being absent. Numerous reports that were published between late 2000 and early 2002 also indicate that Jeff did very little in the way of overseeing the production of Retro's projects. Rather, he delegated, allege insiders. Due to his excessive absences, projects went largely without supervision beyond the project leaders, and communication between Retro and Nintendo began to break down. Reportedly, Jeff was "passing the buck" as were other key management leaders. This, say sources, kept many teams in the dark and Nintendo constantly confused about progress. With little discussion going on, projects allegedly suffered and tempers began to hit a boiling point.

In the summer of 2001, photos and reports began to surface around the Net which spotlighted Spangenberg's after hours lifestyle. Images of him in hot tubs with half-naked women appeared on a website registered to a Retro Studios mailing address. The site, along with the photographs, disappeared quickly once word of its existence was publicized on game industry forums.

There's a reason Nintendo was able to buy out the founder's share in the company for just one million dollars.

 

[farnham]

probably they got a better job offering

the guys made one of the best games last generation

there are a lot of publishers that want him to make games for them right..?

they have lot of knowledge about the GC hardware.. (and with the Wii success its becoming more and more valuable)

I mean its not like MP3 was a failure and those guys didnt got paid or something...

i think its more probable that some publisher offered them a position with more creative freedom

 

[jarrod]

They are given very little autonomy, and are often assigned classic Nintendo franchises to work on, having their own original ideas sidetracked. What would happen if MS told Lionhead that they had to make the next MechAssault? Or if Sony told Polyphony Digital that they had to make the next Heavenly Sword?

Er... your using Polyphony as an example of open creative freedom? Really? :lol

Last I checked, neither Polyphony or Lionhead were working on anything but company owned franchise sequels themselves...

 

[MisterHero]

If only Metroid Prime could come out for the PS3.

Bioshock came out for PS3 right?

Spoiler

Though it's not as awesome as Metroid Prime 1 or 3.

 

[Kittonwy]

No. No. No.

Long before the games were canceled, before Nintendo had full ownership, there were tons of leaks from inside Retro about how the company was completely mismanaged. The games were canceled because Retro had been fucking around for years with nothing to show for it.


From N-Sider's history of Retro studios:



There's a reason Nintendo was able to buy out the founder's share in the company for just one million dollars.

I know it's easy to blame Jeff but aren't the PROJECT LEADS responsible for their own projects? Management delegates, that's what management does, it's not management's job to do everything themselves or micro-manage every single aspect of a game. It seems more of a case where Nintendo didn't have tight reins over Retro with Jeff in charge because aside from meeting milestones I don't see the need for Nintendo to be constantly updated with the progress of the games, you either hit the milestones or you don't and if you don't there are consequences. It seems Nintendo preferred to have a micro-manager constantly reporting to the overlord.

 

[leroy hacker]

I know it's easy to blame Jeff but aren't the PROJECT LEADS responsible for their own projects? Management delegates, that's what management does, it's not management's job to do everything themselves or micro-manage every single aspect of a game. It seems more of a case where Nintendo didn't have tight reins over Retro with Jeff in charge because aside from meeting milestones I don't see the need for Nintendo to be constantly updated with the progress of the games, you either hit the milestones or you don't and if you don't there are consequences. It seems Nintendo preferred to have a micro-manager constantly reporting to the overlord.

Right, it was Jeff and the Retro managers. The word on the street back then was that the vice presidents left in control while he partied were total clowns too. The N-Sider article goes on to say that many people left after Metroid Prime because Barcia(one of the former VPs) was still in charge.

I'm not trying to make an argument about who at Retro was at fault, anyway. I'm just pointing out that these games were canceled because of management and incompetence, not because of a lack of creative freedom.

 

[witness]

If only Metroid Prime could come out for the PS3.

Because its the worst controller to use for FPS's?

 

[soldat7]

I'd love to see these guys do something for 360/PS3.

 

[Mithos Yggdrasill]

Their next project is close to being finished and these guys want a different opportunity with another company...or their next project was a clusteruck.

Going by this...



http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1570214/20070920/id_0.jhtml

WTF does it mean that "the next project is close to being finished". Already????