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[TheSpoonyBard]

I'd like to see some cold, hard numbers around this story. Numbers like how much Kojima is getting paid, how much got spent on the project so far, how much was spent on songs alone etc vs how much Konami expected to make back in MGSV's sales.

Someone, somewhere in Konami figured these numbers out, weighed them against MGSV's expected sales (probably even compared them to previous MGS titles) and said it was untenable.

I don't work in videogames (I'm a graphic designer) but every project has a budget. Going overbudget once is bad enough, multiple times is almost unheard of, and will almost certainly mean either termination by or (at the very least) a horrible relationship with the client.

 

[Panajev2001a]

So because a company wants to continue to exist and save the jobs for hundreds of people they had to let one perfectionist that bled money go, they're evil.

Yeah. Most of you have no fucking clue to how the business works.

Considering how Konami left PES to rot year after year (recently it is seeing a nice improvement graphically thanks to the Fox Engine... I wonder who had the foresight to push for it...), outsourced the Silent Hill series into oblivion and gave the SIlent Hill HD collection to a group who botched it and did not bother to fix it (very business savvy way to treat your cult IP eh?) and we're doing the same for ZoE... until guess who stepped in and called another to fix it? That Kojima and his reluctance to let shitty and unpolished stuff out of the door...

 

[Lernaean]

I read 'apologist this' and 'apologist that'... Is that it now? We are apologists?
Way i see it, it's a gut reaction. When an argument is between a suit and a creator, I always side with the creator. Every-single-time.
Also Kojima has never disappointed me, konami at the other hand...
What do you want Kojima to do? Apologize to you for making TPP the best game possible?

 

[Panajev2001a]

I'd like to see some cold, hard numbers around this story. Numbers like how much Kojima is getting paid, how much got spent on the project so far, how much was spent on songs alone etc vs how much Konami expected to make back in MGSV's sales.

Someone, somewhere in Konami figured these numbers out, weighed them against MGSV's expected sales (probably even compared them to previous MGS titles) and said it was untenable.

I don't work in videogames (I'm a graphic designer) but every project has a budget. Going overbudget once is bad enough, multiple times is almost unheard of, and will almost certainly mean either termination by or (at the very least) a horrible relationship with the client.

There are some signs that the budget for anything games wise at Konami now is being shrunk more and more rather than Kojima wasting more than usual (his titles always brought a lot of customers too though) and that his unwillingness to let crap out of the door because "polishing stuff costs money dude" got him into trouble... See how Konami was perfectly happy to release shitty PES after PES and deliver the SH HD collection in such a sorry state and never fix it when they could have spent a tiny bit more and gone with a better studio like Bluepoint and not devalue their cult IP even more.

 

[Interficium]

I'd like to see some cold, hard numbers around this story. Numbers like how much Kojima is getting paid, how much got spent on the project so far, how much was spent on songs alone etc vs how much Konami expected to make back in MGSV's sales.

Why? So you can have more talking points for your next vidya game forumz post?

 

[the_batman]

...also, comments like these can be thought as sort of offensive to those who are creative, but also have self control. It's just as possible to make a great game without the excesses Kojima goes to.

efficiency and creativity don't go together.

 

[Jpop]

I read 'apologist this' and 'apologist that'... Is that it now? We are apologists?
Way i see it, it's a gut reaction. When an argument is between a suit and a creator, I always side with the creator. Every-single-time.
Also Kojima has never disappointed me, konami at the other hand...
What do you want Kojima to do? Apologize to you for making TPP the best game possible?

You do realize that Kojima was a suit as well.

efficiency and creativity don't go together.

Yes they can, and do.

Case and point. Nintendo.

 

[Skanderani]

Using "Gate" for scandals has been a thing since Watergate . If you consider this news a scandal or not is up for debate though

Actually watergate is the name of the hotel where the scandal took place, gate was never intended as a scandal suffix

 

[TheSpoonyBard]

Why? So you can have more talking points for your next vidya game forumz post?

Because there's always two sides to any argument, and we're not seeing Konami's. If they are a business, every decision they make is ultimately a financial one, and sacking Kojima was clearly a financial one as well. So, I'd like to see how those numbers added up.

 

[Lernaean]

You do realize that Kojima was a suit as well.

The fact that he had his time in management never made him a suit.

 

[the_batman]

You do realize that Kojima was a suit as well.

a "suit" that got actually got his hands dirty, sure.\

Yes they can, and do.

Case and point. Nintendo.

when's the last time Nintendo made a game like the Metal Gear series, something that deals with ethics in nuclear proliferation, human cloning, information control, secret societies, torture, child soldiers, etc, etc.

 

[KHlover]

efficiency and creativity don't go together.

Splatoon disagrees. Most creative 3rd person shooter I've played in years and created in just under 1.5 years.

 

[doofy102]

It's hard to feel sympathy for Konami's case when it's Konami.

Kojima was too expensive and refused to cut cost corners? What the fuck were they expecting? Didn't they fund MGS4, which had a completely unnecessary short film segment at the beginning?

 

[Interficium]

Naughty Dog are a pretty efficient studio, they put out games regularly and uncharted 2&3 budget are surprisingly not that big compare to other AAA games out there.

Kojima will totally not fit in ND culture.

Naughty Dog is one of the only western studios that has as severe crunch periods as Japanese studios. Kojima would fit in just fine!

 

[Jpop]

a "suit" that got actually got his hands dirty, sure.

Okay, are you trying to make a point?

 

[doofy102]

Perfectionists, absolutely. Visionaries, no. They largely ape the vocabulary of Hollywood cinema. Kojima's weirdness and lack of conciseness would not be welcome in an Uncharted or a Last of Us.

Naughty Dog is way more suited to collaborating with Team Ico. They take a lot of notes from Ico and Shadow of the Colossus, took some of the design principals from those games and ingeniously worked them into AAA third person shooters. The two teams even put priority on good animations over precision.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Naughty Dog is one of the only western studios that has as severe crunch periods as Japanese studios. Kojima would fit in just fine!

Source?

 

[the_batman]

Okay, are you trying to make a point?

is it too hard for you to see my point? kojima wasn't just a suit, he actually put work in, the most work as a matter of fact.

what you're saying is trying to nullify the creator title from him.

 

[Matt]

efficiency and creativity don't go together.

That's not true at all...like seriously, at all.

 

[lupinko]

Splatoon disagrees. Most creative 3rd person shooter I've played in years and created in just under 1.5 years.

Not every company is Nintendo.

 

[Interficium]

Because there's always two sides to any argument, and we're not seeing Konami's. If they are a business, every decision they make is ultimately a financial one, and sacking Kojima was clearly a financial one as well. So, I'd like to see how those numbers added up.

Feel free to hold your breath waiting for Konami to breach all pretenses of confidentiality and professional behavior by releasing a current/former employee's salary in an attempt to appease angry gamers.

Source?

Here.

 

[Jpop]

is it too hard for you to see my point? kojima wasn't just a suit, he actually put work in, the most work as a matter of fact.

what you're saying is trying to nullify the creator title from him.

You didn't make a point, you posted.

a "suit" that got actually got his hands dirty, sure.

Hence my question.

When you become an executive in a company it should be known that you should not do anything that effects the bottom line. If you don't want that responsibility, do not take the job.

MGS has always been a money sink; music, voice acting, development, and advertising. You name it. MGSV was the straw that broke the camels back.

Konami has been restructuring for a couple of years trimming the fat and scaling back on handheld/console development. They can't support a money sink that the MGS franchise has been under Kojima, so they got rid of him.

Sure Konami isn't a "good" company in the eyes of gamers buy they are doing what needs to be done to survive as a company. An adaptable company is a lasting company.

 

[Ryan_MSF]

You do realize that Kojima was a suit as well.

Kojima a suit?

 

[ArtHands]

There are some signs that the budget for anything games wise at Konami now is being shrunk more and more rather than Kojima wasting more than usual (his titles always brought a lot of customers too though) and that his unwillingness to let crap out of the door because "polishing stuff costs money dude" got him into trouble... See how Konami was perfectly happy to release shitty PES after PES and deliver the SH HD collection in such a sorry state and never fix it when they could have spent a tiny bit more and gone with a better studio like Bluepoint and not devalue their cult IP even more.

what if they are not able to spend a tiny bit more because Kojima has used up the funding for MGSV?

 

[Lernaean]

Sure Konami isn't a "good" company in the eyes of gamers buy they are doing what needs to be done to survive as a company. An adaptable company is a lasting company.

Oh, i agree with this, 100%

That's why, as a gamer, I don't give a flying fuck about Konami anymore. They can be adaptable and lasting for years to come, to appease gamblers and stock owners all they want.

 

[Jpop]

Kojima a suit?

Posting idiotic gifs to appease your echo chamber doesn't change the fact that he was.

Him being a game developer also doesn't change the fact that he was.

 

[TheSpoonyBard]

Feel free to hold your breath waiting for Konami to breach all pretenses of confidentiality and professional behavior by releasing a current/former employee's salary in an attempt to appease angry gamers.]

Oh, I don't expect Konami to release the numbers, nor am I demanding to. I just said that it'll be easier to see their point if we knew.

 

[Love Deterrence]

Him being a game developer also doesn't change the fact that he was.

Well, he hated the business side of it tbh so

I asked Kojima what he'd like to cut from his life, during an interview for Edge magazine in 2013, who spoke openly of his plans beyond games. "Tough question. Maybe Konami (laughs). I'm 50 this year, and while I love game development, it's a time in my life where I'd like to explore other things. I love games, but I don't necessarily like the management of the business aspect of working for a company. There are many things I'd like to do: for example, maybe take a year off and write a novel. I've also had offers to work on various movies and make movies, so those are things I'd like to explore at some point. If I could, I think that would be a great change in my life."

Idk

Sure, technically, he had that kind of role in his later years at Konami but his desire to make the best game possible makes him much more than just a "suit."

 

[Emitan]

when's the last time Nintendo made a game like the Metal Gear series, something that deals with ethics in nuclear proliferation, human cloning, information control, secret societies, torture, child soldiers, etc, etc.

splatoon

 

[Ryan_MSF]

Posting idiotic gifs to appease your echo chamber doesn't change the fact that he was.

Him being a game developer also doesn't change the fact that he was.

Kojima was known to hate the business side of the industry, hence "appeasing my echo chamber" He's a developer who works hard to make a game as perfect as he possibly can, a lot of the time to a fault. A suit wouldn't give a shit, they'd push a product out the door in whatever state (see Ubisoft) just to make sales and release dates.

The word suit doesn't mean what you think it means.

 

[mrklaw]

There are some signs that the budget for anything games wise at Konami now is being shrunk more and more rather than Kojima wasting more than usual (his titles always brought a lot of customers too though) and that his unwillingness to let crap out of the door because "polishing stuff costs money dude" got him into trouble... See how Konami was perfectly happy to release shitty PES after PES and deliver the SH HD collection in such a sorry state and never fix it when they could have spent a tiny bit more and gone with a better studio like Bluepoint and not devalue their cult IP even more.

Yeah - honestly this feels more like inevitable fallout from a general move away from high budget packaged games than anything specific to Kojima.

 

[Jpop]

Well, he hated the business side of it tbh so

Kojima was known to hate the business side of the industry, hence "appeasing my echo chamber" He's a developer who works hard to make a game as perfect as he possibly can, a lot of the time to a fault. A suit wouldn't give a shit, they'd push a product out the door in whatever state (see Ubisoft) just to make sales and release dates.

The word suit doesn't mean what you think it means.

Obviously.

It doesn't change the fact that he was an executive at Komami and by suit I mean executive so I think it means exactly that

Also he strived to create movies, which is his passion, but the only medium he hhad were video games. Hence his over produced and convuluted masterpieces.

when's the last time Nintendo made a game like the Metal Gear series, something that deals with ethics in nuclear proliferation, human cloning, information control, secret societies, torture, child soldiers, etc, etc.

You know throwing tons of social issues into a video game doesn't make it creative or visionary. It makes it hamfisted and cliche.

splatoon

I chuckled that was funny.

 

[Love Deterrence]

Well, call him what you want. If he were to quit making games, it would be a huge loss for the medium - that's the only thing I can say with absolute certainty.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Everyone is acting like it's natural for Konami to cut Kojima loose, since they could make more profit per yen invested in Pachinko machines than MGS games, but that's just one way of looking at it. If you're a company which is proud of your games, and want to make the best games possible, it's not really natural. Sure, you still need to MAKE a profit, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a huge one, just enough for the company to keep making quality games.

If, however, you have the opinion that your company should be focused on making the highest possible profits, it does make sense.

Whuch is why I expect Kojima to go first party for either Sony or Microsoft(probably Sony). After all first party games exist primarily to move hardware and improve brand perception, not to make a huge amount of money.

 

[Crossing Eden]

efficiency and creativity don't go together.

The fuck? YES THEY DO, have you ever met a single famous creative person in your life? Someone with actual experience creating things. They'd tell you the complete opposite, efficiency is one of the main things taught in art universities and guess what the top students tend to be? In fact, it doesn't even have to be a famous person, talk to anyone who gets paid to work on video games, animated films, tv shows etc. Jesus christ some display such a misunderstanding of the creative world. Yes, some things tend to be chaotic, but trying to be efficient is one of the most important things when you're working on a project.

splatoon

 

[Screaming Meat]

You know throwing tons of social issues into a video game doesn't make it creative or visionary. It makes it hamfisted and cliche.

No, I'd say it makes it brave, actually.

There are not a lot of AAA games that would even allude to something like the Child Soldier phenomenon, let alone broach the subject (however hamfisted you think it might be) of Abu Grahib and Guantanamo Bay with anything like a critical eye. Hell, we'll never see a AAA budgeted game pull off the same weird experiment Kojima did with MGS2.

It's the actual detailed game design and the unique voice he embues these games with, that make Kojima a legendary game designer. You might not like his games, the adoration his fans have for him, or even like him, but you can at least appreciate (if not respect) the fact that he's a pretty unique voice in the industry.

The fuck? YES THEY DO, have you ever met a single famous creative person in your life? Someone with actual experience creating things. They'd tell you the complete opposite, efficiency is one of the main things taught in art universities and guess what the top students tend to be? Jesus christ some display such a misunderstanding of the creative world. Yes, some things tend to be chaotic, but trying to be efficient is one of the most important things.

You're working on the assumption that art universities are the final say on creativity. There is also an assumption in your championing of efficiency that there is one correct "efficient" way of creating things.

Neither of these things are true.

 

[PrimeTime]

That excerpt sounds a bit too fairy-taleish for me. It's painting Kojima as this underpaid man-servant of Konami's who only wanted to make the best games, even if they were way overbudget.

I'm sure Konami has something to say about all of this. I wish that side of the story came out.

 

[Jpop]

No, I'd say it makes it brave, actually.

There are not a lot of AAA games that would even allude to something like the Child Soldier phenomenon, let alone broach the subject (however hamfisted you think it might be) of Abu Grahib and Guantanamo Bay with anything like a critical eye. Hell, we'll never see a AAA budgeted game pull off the same weird experiment Kojima did with MGS2.

It's the actual detailed game design and the unique voice he embues these games with, that make Kojima a legendary game designer. You might not like his games, the adoration his fans have for him, or even like him, but you can at least appreciate (if not respect) the fact that he's a pretty unique voice in the industry.

Sorry I don't.

His games have all the failings of a hopeful script writer still in college trying to make a name for.himself by tackling controversial issues.

 

[Love Deterrence]

Sorry I don't.

His games have all the failings of a hopeful script writer still in college trying to make a name for.himself by tackling controversial issues.

Well, if you can't appreciate that then why are you even here? Everyone has a unique perspective. If you can't acknowledge that, no point in talking to you, man.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Sorry I don't.

His games have all the failings of a hopeful script writer still in college trying to make a name for.himself by tackling controversial issues.

Can you tell a Kojima game from any other game?

 

[Jpop]

Well, if you can't appreciate that then why are you even here? Everyone has a unique perspective. If you can't acknowledge that, no point in talking to you, man.

I don't need to adore or respect Kojima's artistic talents to discuss reasons why he could have been let go by Konami.

 

[Ryan_MSF]

Sorry I don't.

His games have all the failings of a hopeful script writer still in college trying to make a name for.himself by tackling controversial issues.

There's having an opinion, then there's being downright insulting for no reason other than your obvious dislike for the man.

 

[The_Hitcher89]

How can you possibly, possibly take umbrage with the statement 'Kojima is a unique voice in the industry'?

That is just crazy.

edit: wait, depends on how you define 'appreciate'

It can mean like, or accept really.

 

[Screaming Meat]

How can you possibly, possibly take umbrage with the statement 'Kojima is a unique voice in the industry'?

That is just crazy.

It's not even a value judgement. I think the poster is being deliberately obtuse.

 

[Love Deterrence]

I don't need to adore or respect Kojima's artistic talents to discuss reasons why he could have been let go by Konami.

No, I meant if you can't see that everyone has a unique perspective, why discuss anything - in general? You may as well just start up a Telegram chat with yourself and read your own text, if you can't see that.

 

[Jpop]

Can you tell a Kojima game from any other game?

Sure. They are like popcorn flicks. Fun to watch but not any depth.

There's having an opinion, then there's being downright insulting for no reason other than your obvious dislike for the man.

It's not insulting to say someone is a poor writer. Maybe you aren't used to people being blunt.

How can you possibly, possibly take umbrage with the statement 'Kojima is a unique voice in the industry'?

That is just crazy.

edit: wait, depends on how you define 'appreciate'

It can mean like, or accept really.

There are plenty of unique experiences in gaming. Whether that be through script or interaction.

I don't see Kojima's vision as particularly unique though.

 

[Akiller]

No, I meant if you can't see that everyone has a unique perspective, why discuss anything - in general? You may as well just start up a Telegram chat with yourself and read your own text, if you can't see that.

Telegram chat?

 

[Screaming Meat]

Sure they are like popcorn flicks. Fun to watch but not any depth.

So... sorry, that wasn't clear. You can tell a Kojima game from any other or not?

 

[Love Deterrence]

Telegram chat?

shout out baby

 

[Lernaean]

Sure they are like popcorn flicks. Fun to watch but not any depth.

It's not insulting to say someone is a poor writer. Maybe you aren't used to people being blunt.

I'm dying to know which games are 'deep' in your opinion.