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[HK-47]

Probably because it's tb instead of rtwp. That change ruffled some feathers.

I guess but I really dont get the PoE comment.

 

[Wereroku]

I guess but I really dont get the PoE comment.

Yeah that one I'm not sure about. Both of the look great to me.

 

[ZackieChan]

This is the most interesting thread that's been on GAF in awhile. I am legit surprised how much money some of these projects get. What is the compulsion people have to pay early for a product that's not out yet... not even developed yet... it's crazy.

is there no legal recourse people can take against some of these guys?

half a mil and it's just canceled? That whole truth & trolls thread outlines the life of a scam artist.... surely some of these people are liable for fraud right?

Generally, people go to Kickstarter to get funding for a project that otherwise wouldn't exist. While some high-profile companies have taken to KS to fund games, even when they have access to other sources or their own funds, KS is still the go-to place for independent developers to get funding. I think it's great, and there have been tons of games and other projects that have come from it (of varying quality, of course, but that's the nature of the business).

There is legal recourse, but the costs of doing something about it far outweigh the losses they incurred. You're really going to sue over a $30 donation? It's just not worth it.

That doesn't mean that the creator isn't contractually obligated to deliver. And if a corporation or something has raised the money, generally they've spent it all once the Kickstarter fails. There's nothing left to refund backers or pay legal judgments. They just go bankrupt. There may be ways to reach through the corporation to access personal funds, but again, it's not worth fighting a long court battle to get your small pledge back.

Often, these failures aren't due to nefarious creators stealing money. I know that the YogsCast developer (not Yogscast themselves) really did try to get the game made, but just seemed to lack the experience to handle a project on their own.

I do a segment on The Dice Tower podcast, and I literally just recorded my new segment discussing this.

 

[Ketch]

Supporting promising developers and projects, being part of the dev process, etc.

Kickstarter was behind some of the best indie releases of the past few years. FTL, Shovel Knight, Divinity OS, Sunless Sea, Full Bore, The Banner Saga, Risk of Rain, Volgarr The Viking, etc.

Plus I get to support developers I had been following faithfully for years like the folks making Rain World, or help a promising concept rife with awesome potential like SuperHOT become an expanded full-length release

That's why I back Kickstarters

Yea I mean I guess I can understand donating to help out a favorite developer or something. But paying for a full product before it's even in development just seems like bad business. Buying the game after it's out also supports them just the same.

Generally, people go to Kickstarter to get funding for a project that otherwise wouldn't exist. While some high-profile companies have taken to KS to fund games, even when they have access to other sources or their own funds, KS is still the go-to place for independent developers to get funding. I think it's great, and there have been tons of games and other projects that have come from it (of varying quality, of course, but that's the nature of the business).

There is legal recourse, but the costs of doing something about it far outweigh the losses they incurred. You're really going to sue over a $30 donation? It's just not worth it.

That doesn't mean that the creator isn't contractually obligated to deliver. And if a corporation or something has raised the money, generally they've spent it all once the Kickstarter fails. There's nothing left to refund backers or pay legal judgments. They just go bankrupt. There may be ways to reach through the corporation to access personal funds, but again, it's not worth fighting a long court battle to get your small pledge back.

Often, these failures aren't due to nefarious creators stealing money. I know that the YogsCast developer (not Yogscast themselves) really did try to get the game made, but just seemed to lack the experience to handle a project on their own.

I do a segment on The Dice Tower podcast, and I literally just recorded my new segment discussing this.

Yea that's super interesting. Do you have a link to your podcast? I'm sure it's just the very public version of the story of "game is announced and subsequently cancelled" that happens all the time anyway.

I guess I would just make a terrible investor because I like to hang onto my money.

 

[HK-47]

Generally, people go to Kickstarter to get funding for a project that otherwise wouldn't exist. While some high-profile companies have taken to KS to fund games, even when they have access to other sources or their own funds, KS is still the go-to place for independent developers to get funding. I think it's great, and there have been tons of games and other projects that have come from it (of varying quality, of course, but that's the nature of the business).

There is legal recourse, but the costs of doing something about it far outweigh the losses they incurred. You're really going to sue over a $30 donation? It's just not worth it.

That doesn't mean that the creator isn't contractually obligated to deliver. And if a corporation or something has raised the money, generally they've spent it all once the Kickstarter fails. There's nothing left to refund backers or pay legal judgments. They just go bankrupt. There may be ways to reach through the corporation to access personal funds, but again, it's not worth fighting a long court battle to get your small pledge back.

Often, these failures aren't due to nefarious creators stealing money. I know that the YogsCast developer (not Yogscast themselves) really did try to get the game made, but just seemed to lack the experience to handle a project on their own.

I do a segment on The Dice Tower podcast, and I literally just recorded my new segment discussing this.

You work with Dice Tower?

 

[E.G.]

How about a list of AAA developers that shit the bed on their promises and released broken games and offered no money back returns?

Cause I'm pretty sure that list is just as big if not bigger than this list of failed kickstarters.

In reality, Kickstarter is not proving worse than any other development cycle in terms of rate of success. If anything, it's proven better in my opinion because I'm getting more games that simply wouldn't be made in the traditional system.

 

[Dog Problems]

Ignoring how stupid it is that the physical space was the entire point of the thing, they haven't delivered everything. Pendleton Ward and some others still haven't delivered their games.

Yeah, I came in here to post this. Still waiting on that game that Pen is going to do and haven't read anything at all about the actual space opening up.

I hope Jason can get some info about those undelivered games.

Edit: Just read the update about the actual physical space.

The launch of our permanent space has been delayed. Institution-building is a lot of work and can take a long time, and the reasons are usually boring to the public. Still, we are proud of everything that LA Game Space has already delivered, enthusiastic about our upcoming events, and still working towards the launch of a permanent physical space.

Hmm.

 

[HK-47]

Yea I mean I guess I can understand donating to help out a favorite developer or something. But paying for a full product before it's even in development just seems like bad business. Buying the game after it's out also supports them just the same.

If nobody did then some of those games might not exist to buy in the first place. Also I would never back just on concept. I look for people or organizations I have some trust in to deliver. Or look for strong, completed content so you know it not all drawings on a napkin. Thats why I backed the new Shadowrun game.

 

[More_Badass]

Yea I mean I guess I can understand donating to help out a favorite developer or something. But paying for a full product before it's even in development just seems like bad business. Buying the game after it's out also supports them just the same.



Yea that's super interesting. Do you have a link to your podcast? I'm sure it's just the very public version of the story of "game is announced and subsequently cancelled" that happens all the time anyway.

I guess I would just make a terrible investor because I like to hang onto my money.

I mean, $5 - $15 for a cool project with a ton of promise isn't really much of an investment. Unless it's something I was super hyped for like Rain World or Catacomb Kids, I only do the lowest "pre-order" tier.

If nobody did then some of those games might not exist to buy in the first place. Also I would never back just on concept. I look for people or organizations I have some trust in to deliver. Or look for strong, completed content so you know it not all drawings on a napkin. Thats why I backed the new Shadowrun game.

Yeah, I only back if there's actual gameplay footage. Show me something, not just concept art and promises. Devs who have maintained devlogs or dev diaries are the best

 

[Harmen]

How about a list of AAA developers that shit the bed on their promises and released broken games and offered no money back returns?

Cause I'm pretty sure that list is just as big if not bigger than this list of failed kickstarters.

It is also something you cannot really compare. In the case of these kickstarters, the backers got nothing. In case of those AAA devs putting out a product that is not well polished (which I do not like, mind you), regardless of quality you do get an actual product. And on top of that the internet is littered with posts/articles about said quality. Different problem really. And a few recent games have gotten well deserved backlash for it,

 

[FlyingNorseman]

Yeah, though it's easier to write a few lines saying you are working on something than to actually produce a thing.

Last update was in January, so not exactly

 

[Violet_0]

I mentioned in another thread but echoes of eternea seems to be legit dead. Like they completely shut down their website, the guy closed his Facebook, and the KS hasn't been updated in months. 50k down the drain.

http://operationrainfall.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Illia.png
compare with
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/...d3-8/SeikenDensetsu3JTEng101_NCorlett-125.png
http://i.imgur.com/C50us.gif

also

I'd have very little confidence in this kickstarter, heh

that said, I contributed (low tiers thankfully) to two of the failed kickstarters in the op and a few are left in the limbo (Radio the Universe). Haven't backed any projects in almost two years now because of this

 

[E.G.]

It is also something you cannot really compare. In the case of these kickstarters, the backers got nothing. In case of those AAA devs putting out a product that is not well polished (which I do not like, mind you), regardless of quality you do get an actual product. And on top of that the internet is littered with posts/articles about said quality. Different problem really. And a few recent games have gotten well deserved backlash for it,

All I know is I've literally gotten far more kickass games from the projects I've kickstarted than I have AAA products I've bought in recent years (Wasteland, FTL, Divinity, Darkest Dungeon, Shadow Run etc.). And I don't think Im some super lucky kickstarter genius. I practice a little judgement and do a little research, no different than I would in deciding to purchase a retail game.

 

[ZackieChan]

Yea I mean I guess I can understand donating to help out a favorite developer or something. But paying for a full product before it's even in development just seems like bad business. Buying the game after it's out also supports them just the same.



Yea that's super interesting. Do you have a link to your podcast? I'm sure it's just the very public version of the story of "game is announced and subsequently cancelled" that happens all the time anyway.

I guess I would just make a terrible investor because I like to hang onto my money.

I just do a segment on a bigger podcast about legal issues in games. www.thedicetower.com

You work with Dice Tower?

I am the "Board Game Lawyer" who does the "Legal Moves" segment every month or so. Would you like a headshot and autograph?

How about a list of AAA developers that shit the bed on their promises and released broken games and offered no money back returns?

Cause I'm pretty sure that list is just as big if not bigger than this list of failed kickstarters.

In reality, Kickstarter is not proving worse than any other development cycle in terms of rate of success. If anything, it's proven better in my opinion because I'm getting more games that simply wouldn't be made in the traditional system.

Agreed. All it goes to show is that game development is hard. Barring outright fraud or gross mismanagement, I don't really see what the big deal is. If you are pledging an amount of money that, if lost, really damages you, maybe you should not have done it?

It is also something you cannot really compare. In the case of these kickstarters, the backers got nothing. In case of those AAA devs putting out a product that is not well polished (which I do not like, mind you), regardless of quality you do get an actual product. And on top of that the internet is littered with posts/articles about said quality. Different problem really. And a few recent games have gotten well deserved backlash for it,

That's not exactly true, either. I mean, the Clang backers got their promised demo, it was just unclear in the project that that was all they were going to get without more funding. Godus has a version out for mobile and an alpha for PC users. Yogscast backers got a copy of another game. Often there is SOMETHING to show for it, it's just not the entire thing that was promised.

http://operationrainfall.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Illia.png
compare with
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/...d3-8/SeikenDensetsu3JTEng101_NCorlett-125.png
http://i.imgur.com/C50us.gif

also

I'd have very little confidence in this kickstarter, heh

that said, I contributed (low tiers thankfully) to two of the failed kickstarters in the op and a few are left in the limbo (Radio the Universe). Haven't backed any projects in almost two years now because of this

Is he Boyd Crowder from Justified?

 

[hemtae]

I guess but I really dont get the PoE comment.

There's a certain segment of people out there that expected an IE clone and views Pillars of Eternity as a scam because of stuff like no combat XP, no hard counters, different attributes, engagement, etc.

 

[Instro]

http://operationrainfall.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Illia.png
compare with
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/...d3-8/SeikenDensetsu3JTEng101_NCorlett-125.png
http://i.imgur.com/C50us.gif

also

I'd have very little confidence in this kickstarter, heh

that said, I contributed (low tiers thankfully) to two of the failed kickstarters in the op and a few are left in the limbo (Radio the Universe). Haven't backed any projects in almost two years now because of this

Oh yes I certainly never backed it myself, but I've always thought it was interesting because it got funded right after the Double Fine adventure blew KS up. There was some level of work done apparently, a secondary team that worked on the game and who have their own kickstarter basically said they worked on an engine and some other stuff for the game, but they haven't heard from the main devs in months.

 

[HK-47]

There's a certain segment of people out there that expected an IE clone and views Pillars of Eternity as a scam because of stuff like no combat XP, no hard counters, different attributes, engagement, etc.

I find that funny considering D&D games are usually full of flawed socketing of systems that work in one medium onto another.

 

[RenegadeXV8]

There's a certain segment of people out there that expected an IE clone and views Pillars of Eternity as a scam because of stuff like no combat XP, no hard counters, different attributes, engagement, etc.

Infinity Engine games had horrible combat anyway, I don't know why anyone would want a direct clone of that.

edit:

Oh? It says right there on the Kickstarter "We are excited at this chance to create something new, yet reminiscent of those great games." That would seem to suggest that they would be doing their own interpretation.

It's the same with Torment. It was always billed as a spiritual successor set in the same universe, not a direct sequel that would lift all the mechanics from the previous game.

I feel like that guy's issues aren't with Kickstarter, but rather he didn't really read the pitches and then got angry they aren't catering to his own expectations.

 

[wolfhowwl]

There's a certain segment of people out there that expected an IE clone and views Pillars of Eternity as a scam because of stuff like no combat XP, no hard counters, different attributes, engagement, etc.

Oh? It says right there on the Kickstarter "We are excited at this chance to create something new, yet reminiscent of those great games." That would seem to suggest that they would be doing their own interpretation.

 

[Aaron]

Didn't back any of those failed projects. Most of them looked doomed from the start with either questionable developers or scale way out of whack with the money they were asking for.

 

[Violet_0]

You know what gets me about these overly ambitious kickstarter scams? How can these people raise like $500k and get away with nothing, meanwhile I start a gofundme page to send me to GDC and I raise $10, lmao.

I just don't get how some of these projects pull in so much money on claims they obviously can't back or produce. It's nuts. I wish I had some of that money, haha.

step 1: promise the blue from the sky, commission talented artists to produce some high-quality mockups and artwork
step 2: abandon the project at once or wait until the team falls apart, take the money and run
step 3: profit

Infinity Engine games had horrible combat anyway, I don't know why anyone would want a direct clone of that.

them's fightin' words

 

[Ogimachi]

There's a certain segment of people out there that expected an IE clone and views Pillars of Eternity as a scam because of stuff like no combat XP, no hard counters, different attributes, engagement, etc.

That's pretty much it, but I never said it was a scam, as it's nowhere near Elite Dangerous. I said it was nothing like IE CRPGs, and I was disappointed.
I was comparing that situation with Clang's, which couldn't possibly be disappointing because the game isn't being developed anymore, but they still managed to give me my money back, and Obsidian refused to do so.

 

[mrlion]

Obduction Still early (pre-alpha, but playable from beginning to end), last upd. Nov 21

Damn its pretty far into development if the pre-alpha is playable from beginning to end.

 

[Pro from Dover]

They've been showing things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5JTdD-NhDc

Whoa, okay, cool. I totally forgot I backed this.

 

[CecilRousso]

This is the most interesting thread that's been on GAF in awhile. I am legit surprised how much money some of these projects get. What is the compulsion people have to pay early for a product that's not out yet... not even developed yet... it's crazy.

It really isn't anymore difficult then that most of these products wouldn't have happened at all without kickstarter, so you wouldn't have had an opportunity to buy it later. Kickstarter is about enabling projects to happen.

That it doesn't make sense for one personally, from a financial perspective is not really that concerns me at least.

 

[ZackieChan]

I'm always baffled at how baffled people are when it comes to Kickstarter. It's really not that complicated or weird.

 

[randomkid]

We made FOTONICA (bottom right) and we contributed our game to the backers bundle a long time ago. It's called VideoHeroeS.

Oh good deal! VideoHeroes is one of the ones I had some fun with, very educational.

 

[Feep]

Sort of OT, but my Kickstarter game ($115,569 funded) is coming out in four days, so WOOOOO!

I'll be another Green check box in Stump's list. ^^

 

[mao2]

♪ Sealark - The Last Fisherman (preview)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eynMy9pINIg
♪ Sealark - Oceanic Adventure (preview)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-E2jJyyz90

Sealark is another project that's long overdue. It was funded on October 15, 2012, but until today the game still hasn't been released. The character design, artwork and music are extremely charming and nice.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1338986832/sealark-an-oceanic-adventure-game
http://sealarks.tumblr.com/

 

[Haunted]

A good article. Although Kickstarter has been a tremendous boon for the industry and we've seen success after success after success, it's also always important to remind people of the risks they take with KS.

People are so often mentioning that it's easy to tell which projects are earnest and which are a scam, and while that's largely true, there are some projects in that list that looked "solid" as a KS pitch. Particularly Clang - even though it was a very early concept, the pitch was as professionally produced as can be and had several high-profile participants.



edit: great resource by Stump as well

edit²:

Sort of OT, but my Kickstarter game ($115,569 funded) is coming out in four days, so WOOOOO!

I'll be another Green check box in Stump's list. ^^

Good shit Feep

 

[ZackieChan]

Sort of OT, but my Kickstarter game ($115,569 funded) is coming out in four days, so WOOOOO!

I'll be another Green check box in Stump's list. ^^

Congrats dude

 

[Haunted]

We made FOTONICA (bottom right) and we contributed our game to the backers bundle a long time ago. It's called VideoHeroeS.

VideoHeroeS was cool!

 

[Uthred]

Sealark is another project that's long overdue. It was funded on October 15, 2012, but until today the game still hasn't been released. The character design, artwork and music are extremely charming and nice.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1338986832/sealark-an-oceanic-adventure-game
http://sealarks.tumblr.com/

I'd forgotten both that this existed and that I backed it.

 

[travisbickle]

Wow a Cristiano Ronaldo sim, where do I sign up?

 

[Violet_0]

Wow a Cristiano Ronaldo sim, where do I sign up?

send me twenty bucks and you can have my, uh, pre-order?

I feel stupid

 

[Feep]

Congrats dude

Awww yiss ^^

 

[Nanashrew]

♪ Sealark - The Last Fisherman (preview)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eynMy9pINIg
♪ Sealark - Oceanic Adventure (preview)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-E2jJyyz90

Sealark is another project that's long overdue. It was funded on October 15, 2012, but until today the game still hasn't been released. The character design, artwork and music are extremely charming and nice.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1338986832/sealark-an-oceanic-adventure-game
http://sealarks.tumblr.com/

This game looks gorgeous and this makes me sad :C.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Auditorium 2 was funded ages ago, and is long overdue as well. Heck, for the longest time the kickstarter updates were about the teams other releases and not the one that was funded.

 

[batfax]

♪ Sealark - The Last Fisherman (preview)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eynMy9pINIg
♪ Sealark - Oceanic Adventure (preview)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-E2jJyyz90

Sealark is another project that's long overdue. It was funded on October 15, 2012, but until today the game still hasn't been released. The character design, artwork and music are extremely charming and nice.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1338986832/sealark-an-oceanic-adventure-game
http://sealarks.tumblr.com/

It looks like this has still had updates happening though, with one being as recent in December and with a promise to deliver in 2015. It probably just took a lot longer than expected considering their supposed 2-person team and a heckuva lot more funding than initially requested.

 

[Menome]

Obduction Still early (pre-alpha, but playable from beginning to end), last upd. Nov 21

Damn its pretty far into development if the pre-alpha is playable from beginning to end.

The updates for Obduction are about as regular as I'd expect. We get something every few months and it's always actual news. I much prefer this to other Kickstarter projects I've backed, who spew out weekly updates at times without any substance to them.

 

[Azure Dream]

What about Cryamore or Zombie Playground? Those always smelled fishy to me.

Wait, what's wrong with Cryamore? I get backer updates on that all the time.

 

[XRA]

Radio The Universe is the only kickstarter game I'm excited about right now (that i backed) I'm actually really happy with the dude's updates, he's so damn mysterious.. its refreshing and fits in with the game itself.

The funny thing is, most of the kickstarters I backed that are close to finishing now, I'm looking at like, why did I back this?... I definitely seemed to have gotten sucked into the kickstarter hype early on, kinda ridiculous.

*edit* actually I think I backed Ghost Song, that one I'm psyched about too, but geez, I'm afraid to check my kickstarted project list...lol

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

How about a list of AAA developers that shit the bed on their promises and released broken games and offered no money back returns?

Cause I'm pretty sure that list is just as big if not bigger than this list of failed kickstarters.

But this article was about Kickstarter Failures.

So I mean. Or are you just upset that someone dare say something negative about something you like regardless of context?

 

[ZackieChan]

But this article was about Kickstarter Failures.

So I mean. Or are you just upset that someone dare say something negative about something you like regardless of context?

It's the implication that the problem so somehow with Kickstarter, rather than with game development in general.

 

[Aselith]

It's the implication that the problem so somehow with Kickstarter, rather than with game development in general.

The problem a IS with KS to some degree though. Publisher model means you never see the ones that fail to get made. With Kick starter, you can pay for it AND never see it.

 

[CecilRousso]

I would want to know more what happened with Lioness. The project seems MIA, and it was one those kickstarters where the gaming press did their best to push people to support it, so maybe they should keep a closer eye on it?

 

[Terrell]

It's not the failures that bother me. It's that there's failures while better projects could have been funded/completed.

 

[Maximo]

Two things:

1) H-Hour is a strange story. The Kickstarter hasn't had any recent updates -- and the director, whose name was one of the Kickstarter's prime selling points, quietly left last year -- but I hadn't seen those recent developments on the game's website, and have updated that section of the article accordingly. Thanks to everyone who pointed that out.

2) This is just the first batch of what will likely be an ongoing series, because I think it's important for reporters to be calling out crowdfunded projects that take people's money and then don't deliver. So to anyone saying we left out any abandoned projects, feel free to e-mail me with details and I'll look into it for the next round-up.

Don't always agree with your Views and Kotaku. But much respect for you coming on this forum to talk to us and also Kotaku for starting to do more interesting Articles like this.

 

[ZackieChan]

The problem a IS with KS to some degree though. Publisher model means you never see the ones that fail to get made. With Kick starter, you can pay for it AND never see it.

Well, you're replacing the financier with the crowd. That doesn't change the nature of game development.

I think we agree, but my take on it is the you're not dealing with unsuspecting people. There is a risks and challenges section that is mandated in every project page.

No one is forcing people to Kickstart the game. They are free to wait until it is out to purchase it. When you do that, sure, you take on some risk. I just think the aggregate reward is worth it, and the nature of crowdfunding makes the individual risk very small.

 

[Ban Puncher]