-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Kotaku UK thinks "More Like Persona 5/10, Amirite" is a good headline
- Thread starter Firenze1
- Start date
While we're on the topic of Ann, what does she do after the second palace? It seems like she gets tossed aside once Makoto gets in the picture. Haru also felt worthless.
Hell, a bunch of the cast didn't get proper development. It was always Phantom Thieves this and Phantom Thieves that with them.
Hell, a bunch of the cast didn't get proper development. It was always Phantom Thieves this and Phantom Thieves that with them.
hurricanes
Member
"it's anime, anime is like this!"
"New comer are upset because it's too anime"
Bullshit.
Not to mention that "anime" is never an excuse to balant objectification(and that many good anime do not rely on titillating fanservice), prior entries in the series have better, less hypocritical stories. If they can't actually tackle an serious issue with an serious attitude, they should stick to the easy high school drama that made them popular.
"New comer are upset because it's too anime"
Bullshit.
Not to mention that "anime" is never an excuse to balant objectification(and that many good anime do not rely on titillating fanservice), prior entries in the series have better, less hypocritical stories. If they can't actually tackle an serious issue with an serious attitude, they should stick to the easy high school drama that made them popular.
Haven't really been paying attention to the knockdown poses, but after seeing that post I noticed Yusuke's was similar. Feel like Ryuji's is too, though I haven't had him in my party for a while to check.
It's not so much actively defending as it is failing to see the outrage if the pose isn't exclusive to her/the female characters. You can attack the game for its portrayal of Ann without resorting to this.
I'm thinking 4th.
1- Breath of the Wild
2 - Mario or Horizon
3 - Horizon or Mario
4 - P5
5 - Nier
Those are just my guesses based on reception and popularity. Mario is pretty much a shoe-in for top 3 unless something goes horribly, horribly wrong.
OH, forgot about Resident Evil VII. That one might be a dark horse. Actually, we have lots of dark horses this year. Nioh could end up surprising.
It will be:
1 - Either Mario or Zelda
2 - Either Mario or Zelda
3 - Persona 5
Persona boyz will come out to support their well deserved spot in the top 3.
I hope you're right, but with Horizon/Zelda being the biggest rivalry of the year, and considering both title's popularity, I just don't see Horizon not scoring a place in the top 3.
It's not as good as P4G (I did not play the original iteration). It feels like much more of a slog than it despite the similar length.. I was really anxious to just finish it and move on. The core gameplay is good but something just dragged towards the end.. 100 hours is a very long time for a console game with a linear story. It's one thing if it's open world and you're branching doing a bunch of other stuff. This is to an extent, but not in the same vein as a true open world game.
P4G was perfect for me with the sleep mode on the Vita.. pick up and play works a lot better for a game of this duration.
P4G was perfect for me with the sleep mode on the Vita.. pick up and play works a lot better for a game of this duration.
Watch Call of Duty get best music awards.
Imp the Dimp
Member
Which is because there are probably more people who played P5 than Nioh, Nier, Hollow Knight and Yakuza 0, all of which are easily better games. GotY vote is all about the quantity of votes after all, so games with a high circulation will have some advantage. Skyrim beat Dark Souls in 2011 lol.
I have found that a lot of the time it seems games get ganged up on so it makes it looks like everyone hates it...when in reality, the ones who do hate it are just more vocal and constant about said hate. FFXV threads are often full of people trashing the fuck out of it...and yet IIRC it made the top 10 of GOTY around here before. MGS4 is another example. People tend to be more vocal when it comes to negative stuff...
it makes it tough to talk about said games but it is what it is.
that doesn't invalidate their opinion by no means tho (I agree with many of the issues...they just aren't game ruining or something I will keep getting upset over).
Radical Edward
Member
Phrozenflame500
Member
Lmao what a world we live in where Persona 5 is the normie vote
Regarding XV, that got on my list solely because 2016 was a very weak year for me, so it's like... I had to put something down lmao
That said, I didn't completely sour on it until 2017 hit us with so many great games.
And yet Dark Souls has consistently beaten Skyrim in every other thread.
Also, let's not pass our opinions as facts. Shit is obnoxious.
Welp, this made me doubt so I went to double check and turns out you're right.
They look similar at first glance, so I thought they were the same, but Yusuke is actually trying to get up instead of just laying there ass exposed.
The more you know.
Welp, this made me doubt so I went to double check and turns out you're right.
They look similar at first glance, so I thought they were the same, but Yusuke is actually trying to get up instead of just laying there ass exposed.
The more you know.
Lol, I was trying to find his, but I got lazy. Only could find Ann's, Haru's, and Makoto's, though I knew that the rest of the guys didn't get knocked down like that.
SolicitorPirate
Member
I've been thinking of why exactly I found P5 so shallow compared to the other modern Persona games, and I think it can be summed up as follows:
Persona 5 tries to tell stories about oppressive systems, but then completely misunderstands its own subject matter by positing those systems can be overcome by defeating a singular antagonist who is the source of all woes and evils emanating from that system. It's essentially a story about systemic oppression written by people with no fucking clue what systemic oppression is.
Persona 5 tries to tell stories about oppressive systems, but then completely misunderstands its own subject matter by positing those systems can be overcome by defeating a singular antagonist who is the source of all woes and evils emanating from that system. It's essentially a story about systemic oppression written by people with no fucking clue what systemic oppression is.
Iva Demilcol
Member
The only one I could get was this super tiny pic:
when you see it from behind (as you normally do during a fight) it's more noticeable.
Idt this is true. The ending sequence is about this.
After going through the bad apples that abuse in specific, idiosyncratic ways, you turn to going up against the collective lethargy and acceptance of systemic imbalances in the form of Yaldaboath. It does the same sort of twist as P4's "Inaba willed it all!" This time "Tokyo wills it!"
Heck, even in Kamoshida arc the school/parents were presented as complicit enablers.
Madarame was enabled too. Even Yusuke was conditioned to be his enabler.
I don't think it is particularly articulate but it does ultimately say that the ugliness of society at large is the real bad guy.
And then at the end they pass the mission on to society. Because taking out certain tumors doesn't solve things.
Painting that as complacency is a too simplistic take, but there is a degree of vapid banality to systemic imbalances.
Frankly, I think this sort of incomplete pop critique that doesn't stick the landing in some uncomfortable ways is exactly the sort of thing P3 and P4 were too.
Idk. I guess I'm okay with Persona being an anime JRPG that sort of tries to say something and sort of has something to say and presents it in an incredibly attractive package.
...
Beyond that I'd also point out that taking a stand against pieces of an evil machinery may not solve everything but it does solve something: puts that particular evil to an end.
Personally, I found this sort of pulp take cathartic in the time of Trump.
The best example was Uncharted 4. A lot of folks talk about that game like they killed their dog yet it was voted #1 in GOTY voting. The reactions were something else.
Darkness Unleashed
Member
That is just how things are...
Masterpieces are not complete without a few detractors (referring mainly to that clickbait title). For me at least, as I'm approaching to the end, P5 is one of the best games I have ever played, and it might become THE best one if the ending delivers as much as I heard.
Masterpieces are not complete without a few detractors (referring mainly to that clickbait title). For me at least, as I'm approaching to the end, P5 is one of the best games I have ever played, and it might become THE best one if the ending delivers as much as I heard.
joe_zazen
Member
How do you respond to the writer's criticisms? I'm genuinely curious because his critique of the characters is harsh. I'm referring specifically to all the
villians being one dimensional variants of muhahahah-ing skeletors.
That's no different from any of the recent Persona games.
joe_zazen
Member
But does that make five a masterpiece? Are the protags good enough to carry it or are we looking at mediocre writing? I bounced off it after a few hours, but it still niggles a bit that maybe I left too soon. I mean after six hours four had barely begun.
Once again, Persona 4 doesn't have amazing writing either, yet it is seen as one of the best jrpgs ever. Persona 5 is an improvement over past entries on almost every level, gameplay wise. Story isn't mind-blowing or anything, yet complaining about it when past games have been of a similar level is quite silly.
There really wasn't an main antagonist in P3, sure there were a few but those weren't the main point, they just complimented the mystery surrounding the tartarus.
I'd say it's relatively the same for P5, where the main mystery is the cognitive world. All previous Persona games have almost identical progression and climaxes. Sure, you can say you prefer one over the other, but their quality and style is so similar that one being worse than the other doesn't really mean much.
Trigonometrize.
Member
I agree with this sentiment. It exactly mirrors how I think about the Coke vs Pepsi argument. Sure you can spot the differences, but is one really that much better than the other in these regards? C'mon.
but the thing with P5 is that those sideshow antagonists take the center stage for most of the game while the mystery of cognitive world is there on the background. In P3 it was the other way around, the evil persona group was used sparingly until the end when the group started to figure out what Tartarus was.
Also i think that P5 is definitely the most flawed game out of the newer persona games because they stumble hard with some of the S-links like our new detective boy.
Hmm, I feel like the social links, and how they are actually integrated into the plot and gameplay, are better than ever. The mandatory s-links didn't bother me at all because there's so many of them (aren't there more than ever before?), and most I did were pretty cool (Kawakami, Nijima, etc.)
Yeah, I love this game, but I had my gripes with the story for sure and actually I agree with most of article's points. But what's bizarre to me is when fans criticize these things while holding past games as the supposed high quality standard, especially 4, like... What?
The past page bad someone basically saying P5 isn't as realistic because it doesn't have the slice of life anime cliches P4 has lmao.
Really, I see all three stories as almost the same in quality, with P5 being overall my favorite but not by a wide margin. Add to that the MASSIVE improvements to everything related to combat and dungeon crawling and the game is evidently the superior entry.
Now, half the people who call it a disappointment seem to not enjoy the genre at all so who cares about gameplay, right.
I may be misremembering because it's been a while, but I find it weird that people who have P3 as their favorite complain that P5 has a "villain of the week" structure because I recall in P3 you spend almost half of the game literally fighting the monster of the month until it's revealed where the shadows come from.
I do find it a bit odd that so many are comparing 5's story unfavorably to 4's with complaints like it's slow, repetitive and drags, etc.
Like... I love 4, but those criticisms can be easily applied to that game as well. There's a massive chunk of it, probably around 60% percent of the game, where literally nothing happens in terms of story. Its formula also isn't really any different than 5's.
Again, I love 4 as well, just seems like a bit of a double-standard to me. Pretty much every complaint I've heard about 5's story structure and pacing can apply to 4 as well (and even 3). I'd argue the cast made the game special, not the story.
But I also recognize that 4 is a lot shorter and many played in on the go where they could more easily chip away at it. Length certainly plays a role in pacing. Story and characters are also pretty subjective so eh, let everyone have their preferences. Just wanted to add my two cents.
Like... I love 4, but those criticisms can be easily applied to that game as well. There's a massive chunk of it, probably around 60% percent of the game, where literally nothing happens in terms of story. Its formula also isn't really any different than 5's.
After the investigation team forms it's, a good 40ish hours of watch Midnight Channel, learn about person, complete the dungeon, "Do you know who kidnapped you?" "No." Rinse and repeat for the like the middle 60-70% of the game. Sure you get new party members, but that also happens in the other games.
The mystery doesn't advance in any meaningful way, and the investigation team makes effectively zero progress until the last 25-30% of the game. Even then it's mostly just Naoto coming in like a badass with answers.
The mystery doesn't advance in any meaningful way, and the investigation team makes effectively zero progress until the last 25-30% of the game. Even then it's mostly just Naoto coming in like a badass with answers.
Again, I love 4 as well, just seems like a bit of a double-standard to me. Pretty much every complaint I've heard about 5's story structure and pacing can apply to 4 as well (and even 3). I'd argue the cast made the game special, not the story.
But I also recognize that 4 is a lot shorter and many played in on the go where they could more easily chip away at it. Length certainly plays a role in pacing. Story and characters are also pretty subjective so eh, let everyone have their preferences. Just wanted to add my two cents.
Back then it was a lot more novel, and in my mind it works a lot better when you know that the month is going to climax in a big monster showing up instead of a listening to a shadow go and on about his vices. Hell, the time limits this time around felt arbitrary as hell, they worked in a few situations but in most cases it left me scratching my head when they deduced the exact time when it would be over for them. Sad thing is that in the end they used a way that would have made it a lot more interesting, when instead of displaying how many days you had left it just said "SOON".
Kinda the same way as in P4, you knew that the heavy rain fall came once a month but you weren't exactly sure of when it would come. When Persona in general tries to hide so many stats from you, i find it weird that they were so rigid with the time limits.
Dead End Irony
Member
Nah we got Sonic Mania coming out next month to snatch away the music awards. Sorry Nier!
SolicitorPirate
Member
You basically answered your own question. I will agree that P4's story wasn't anything spectacular, but that game really put the work in to make you care about the characters, their lives and their town. It helped that each dungeon of the week was a deep dive into whatever issue was afflicting a character and how they were reacting to and failing to deal with it. So by the time you got a new party member, you already knew them to a degree.
By contrast, most the P5's cast simply didn't have that kind of care put into them. There were times I felt P5 was more interested in showing me how cartoonishly evil each new villain was rather than introducing and endearing its cast to me.
Also, I think part of the reason a lot of people are expressing preference for P4's story over P5 is because P4 was just a much more light hearted game that didn't demand to be taken as seriously. P4 was ultimately an adventure with your friends, with the murder mystery as a catalyst. P5 feels a lot more like it's trying to grab me and yell about all the Important Issues it has to say while using its characters as a means to tell its story. That would be fine if P5 had something meaningful or profound to say, but it didn't.
For sure, I can easily see why one would prefer 4. It has what I would describe as the most charm of the modern three games. Just felt the need to point out that a lot of criticism lobbed at 5's story can easily go the other way.
If I had to choose, I'd take 4's cast over 5 but I still liked 5's crew a lot.
I think it worked as a "how did this person escape certain death?" sort of twist and as episodic content in a great thief/detective genre fiction.
It also worked as the noose closing on the group after the surprise death. That and the "hidden in plain sight" segment marked the drastic shift from the badguys letting you grow to the badguys trying to end you. They set that movement up as early as July/August with the SIU director chats.
I just think it cost that certain character a hell of a lot and exploring that sour note was pretty poorly done too.
I also feel they could've done more work to set
Shido
Shido/Sojiro/Wakaba
For a game that has so much talking, it really could've been put to better effect with respect to the end-boss. More "mental shut-downs." More fleshed out members of the conspiracy, rather than just a bunch of nameless evil people.
And I think this also bleeds over into the suddeness of the twilight zone after he's done. They could've set the stage for that better.
...
I think it'd have been harder to "fix"
Akechi
I agree with you that P4 did Inaba and the friend group better. I'll quote myself from above:
I don't agree, however, that it was purely a fluff plot that wasn't going to have sticking points. It was trying to say big things about, say, gender and sexuality and had a habit of always landing on the "safe" side, despite playing with queer themes. Moreover, the cast has a tendency towards homophobia, particularly Yosuke but also at least Chie, which in itself isn't troublesome, but it is troublesome that this is never really put in its place so much as others sort of walk back their own possible queerness. And that's a thing that happens: people do question if they are queer and say no in the end, but everyone does that in Persona 4. So you do have a bit off-key, awkward approach to serious issues in Persona 4, just like you do in Persona 5.
Notably, people do call out Persona 4 along these lines and for some people it makes the whole thing objectionable. I don't think this is some strong advantage P4 has over P5, rather it is a way, in which, they are both similarly controversial.
And then Persona 4's approach to the serial murder story-line stringing the episodic content together disappointed me at least. It is an extremely attractive premise to me. And I think that the way Atlus tied it up with the multiple active parties makes sense of it all rather nicely, but...the way you move through the story is very flat-footed and at times frustrating with extremely repetitive failures stacked on top of each other and then you suddenly get to put things together in the end with Naoto. It is building to that point in a way--Kubo through Nanako is a building arc to this point, after the more strictly episodic first three dungeons, but by that point the progress is still haltingly slow and the original act has already built up frustration with the lack of movement.
In devaluing the "mental shutdowns" and valuing the narrative of the thieves themselves becoming a thing, I do think P5 has a much less prone-to-plot-frustration approach, although it builds into some other issues mentioned in my replay to the other user.
I think P5 and P4 are ultimately incredibly similar. Their stories are functional and, in the end, quite simple. If you think about them, they fit together. But they aren't always articulated very well and go about their stories a bit awkwardly. They flub some of the things they want to say and sometimes in quite controversial ways.